01V (5HP19) tiptronic gearbox juddering problem

[athomson]

Hi,

thought i'd share my experience with a juddering auto box and it's solution. It's the ZF 5HP19 (real name) or 01V (VAG name) tiptronic for the 1.9tdi used in both passat and Audi A4 among others. The car is 2003 with 180K motorway miles on her and is otherwise working fine still, it's not been obviously abused.

I was getting pronounced juddering in 2nd to 5th gears but only at certain revs. Driving was only possible by using the manual shift to keep the revs above that, so it was quite a serious looking problem.

There are 3 stages to the torque converter clutch, open - control - locked. I discovered the control stage (where slip is minimised to increase efficiency) is from 2000rpm to 2500rpm in 2nd gear and from 1500rpm to 2000rpm in 3rd to 5th gears. As the juddering was only occurring at those revs i assumed the lock up clutch was at fault.

The second big clue was that it was hardly noticeable when the box was stone cold and got more obvious as it got hotter. I was told it was possible the solenoid valve body could be cracked and more fluid could get through as it heated up and expanded.

Fortunately i went to a small local specialist who didn't mind me looking over his shoulder as he dropped the fluid and pan out. The big clues doing that are the colour of the fluid - almost black is normal for OLD fluid and as long as there isn't any metallic glittering or silver fluid you're pretty sure there isn't crushed up metal from an obliterated part. A thin covering of fillings on the magnets in the pan is also normal for 180K miles of use. Chunks of metal of course are not normal!

The fluid was dark but otherwise it was looking ok. I opted to have the filter cleaned (not really necessary to replace it if they have proper cleaning facilities) and the fluid in the pan renewed. The technician was itching to strip the box and do a £2000 rebuild 'just to be sure' so i'm glad i was there!

Problem solved, drove almost like a new car again. I could just feel a slight judder sometimes i thought but as only half the fluid was new i wasn't too surprised. 8000 miles later the problem was back, though i didn't let it get as bad, i hoped it was just in need of the other half of the fluid being changed so this time just dropped it out of the sump and refilled what i could. Problem solved again. For now.

I'm told these boxes have a life expectancy of around what mine has done. Clearly though the ATF does not last as long as the box and the idea that the fluid never needs changing is for me at least well and truly debunked. I don't expect it to last another 180K miles but maybe it'll go for 20K or 50K, i've wait and see.

So if you're searching here for a solution to juddering, it only happens when the fluid is hot or only when in the control rev range and the fluid and pan is fairly clean give a fluid change a try first. If your juddering only happens in 1 or 2 of the gears, happens when the TC clutch should be locked, if there is a breif surge in revs before the box changes gear, the fluid comes out silver or speced with metal, isn't related to ATF temperature or there are bits of metal in the bottom of the pan you might not be so lucky. What ever you do though don't just assume the box is totalled and give a blank cheque to your VW dealer, in fact at least in the UK don't even go to your VW dealer, find a respected local specialist as your VW dealer would likley send to them anyway or they'd just put a recon box in not knowing what else to do.

hope that helps
abdullah

[athomson]

Actually i should clarify, perhaps saying black ATF is normal for 180K miles is a bit missleading, mine was dark but transparent like black coffee in a glass and crucially it didn't smell of anything. I don't see how you could expect such used ATF to look the same as it went in but correct me if you're sure i'm wrong.

And the reason i say avoid VW dealerships for auto boxes is that with only 5% of cars in UK being auto and that they usualy don't do much to them rather than sending them to a specialist or replacing them, they naturally aren't as clued up as a specialist. I didn't get very knowledgable replys to my questions and have heard many similar reports from others.