clutch juddering on biting point....

[skymaster]

On saturday I started to get some slight clutch judder as I pulled away.... I drove about 15 miles on A roads, then pottered around looking for a space in congested town traffic. By the time I parked the juddering was shaking my teeth out!

I got that sinking feeling of knowing that a new clutch & flywheel was inevitable and of course very costly.

I then left the car for a couple of hours. Have since driven it about 50 miles on very varied roads and it's been perfect!

Any ideas? I assumed that when a cluth or flywheel was on their way out then things only got worse... Worth noting that at anything above 5 mph it drove fine. Cant get the clutch to slip while driving no matter what. It's a TDI 130 6 speed with Quattro.

Any comments welcome...

[wanstronian]

I get the same thing on my '99 A4 2.5 TDi. It's worse in hot weather, and towing/hill-starting etc.

Giving it slightly higher revs helps, although this makes everyone think you have no clutch control. It also wears the clutch quicker, but what have you got to lose - it's on its way out anyway!

Mine's been doing it since last Summer, but there's still no sign of clutch slip during normal driving so I'm putting up with it for now.

Not much of a diagnosis I know, maybe someone else can throw some light?

[skymaster]

Yea, I could understand it more if the clutch was slipping. Then it would be a case of wear. I get the feeling it's more mechanical, like the dual mass flywheel playing up or pressure plate bearing. Mine has a warranty til Jan so if I can claim a mechanical fault with it then I need to do so pronto.

[Dave Avant]

If it did it when the engine etc was warm and you had been using it quite a bit in traffic it could be just the clutch getting hot and the judder is the plate 'skipping' on the hot flywheel as it was normal again when it cooled.

Clutch judder can be a number of things, from contaminated plate, worn mounts, a sticky/rusty input shaft - had this before!!

I think it will be OK. Also have a read of the warranty as alot won't accept clutch claims - they claim its just wear and tear.

[skymaster]

Thanks Dave

Yea, I know warranty companies usually try to wriggle out of any clutch claims. Will have to go down the faulty flywheel route if a claim is gonna be paid I recon. I am confident that on disassembly the clutch will show signs of life and milage left.

It's weird cos I have never had it before. I have used the car for all sorts of driving in the past, motorway, town, windy A roads etc etc and never had this happen before.

Even when I once had to reverse up a mega steep hill and really worked the clutch it didn;t judder like this.

Weird!

[Dave Avant]

Thanks Dave

Yea, I know warranty companies usually try to wriggle out of any clutch claims. Will have to go down the faulty flywheel route if a claim is gonna be paid I recon. I am confident that on disassembly the clutch will show signs of life and milage left.

It's weird cos I have never had it before. I have used the car for all sorts of driving in the past, motorway, town, windy A roads etc etc and never had this happen before.

Even when I once had to reverse up a mega steep hill and really worked the clutch it didn;t judder like this.

Weird!

It could be when you reversed up the step hill, must admit I've done this and as reverse it geared inbetween 1st and 2nd the clutch can drag afair bit and may have put hot spots on the flywheel which essentially makes hard spots. You can see them on the flywheel - all bluey patches. But it would do more or less all the time. I'd see how it goes. I've had a juddery clutch before (only notice it in 1st when setting off) and some days it was worse. All it was was rusty splines where the clutch sits, bit of grease would fix it, but as I had the gearbox off I replaced the clutch anyway. Also my brother had it from the clutch operating arm wasn't right.

Actually the otherday sat in traffic in the BMW and that started to do it a bit on take up - after the jam it was fine and the next day too.

I blame it on the health and safety people removing the abestos from the clutch linings!!

When BMW first went to non abestos clutches in the early 90s they had common problems with clutch judder.

[Pauloz]

Could be several things. Probably not the flywheel though if mainly/just when pulling away. Most likely is just a pretty worn drive plate, which doesnt have the friction it once had, so will slip unless completely engaged.
The only problem is that this isnt going to get any better - and additionally, will also likely take the flywheel out too! DMFs can easily last 140k, but get them too hot, they wont last 5 minutes as the internal springs rely on the grease theyre emersed in, only 5mm of steel away from the drive plate. So basically a slipping clutch will heat the DMF surface, and damage the grease, then the springs destroy themselves.

Is this the first clutch replacement on the vehicle? If not, the other cause of clutch judder is incorrect lubrication of the bearing/plate splines. Modern clutches don't actually need any lubrication at all, on splines or bearing!! Typical mistake is use of copper slip. Simply the worst substance you can put anywhere near a clutch. Its not a high temp grease. If its the original clutch on the car tho, this won't be the issue.

What millage on this clutch/flywheel? Theres no point trying to blag it for a warranty. They'll either replace under warranty, or wont. Its easy to tell how a clutch has failed once youre looking at it. If a clutch is manufactured wrong, due to the extremely harsh environment its in, it wont last at all. A clutch wont do 20k even, then fail, unless something else has happened to it. Unfortunately, one period of overheating can damage it irrepairably. Once over heated, the friction material is permanently damaged and wont recover, just detiorate quicker.

And yeah, asbestos free clutches are more suseptible to heat damage, and oil contamination than their not outlawed predecesors

[skymaster]

Thanks for this Paul. Highly informative indeed. As far as I know the car is on it's original clutch. I'ts got about 67k on the clock so far. I bought it 10 months ago on 55k.

Although as with any used car god only knows what the previous owner did to it.

My only problem at present it replicating the fault. Since it's little tantrum on saturday it's behaved itself perfectly.

I know some really good VAG mechanics that have the ability to do the work for me but sadly it's not exactly a drive way jack up job. It's gonna need a ramp and some heavy man hours.

If I do need to go down the route of replacing the flywheel and clutch can you advise if it's best to get a genuine Audi one or try to buy a manufactured branded one, someone mentioned that they have Saches flywheels in them.... not sure though.

[Pauloz]

Thanks for this Paul. Highly informative indeed. As far as I know the car is on it's original clutch. I'ts got about 67k on the clock so far. I bought it 10 months ago on 55k.

Although as with any used car god only knows what the previous owner did to it.

My only problem at present it replicating the fault. Since it's little tantrum on saturday it's behaved itself perfectly.

I know some really good VAG mechanics that have the ability to do the work for me but sadly it's not exactly a drive way jack up job. It's gonna need a ramp and some heavy man hours.

If I do need to go down the route of replacing the flywheel and clutch can you advise if it's best to get a genuine Audi one or try to buy a manufactured branded one, someone mentioned that they have Saches flywheels in them.... not sure though.

Thats the prob bud - if youre paying for the labour to have a look at the clutch, you may as well change the thing while youre there. Flywheel is a little different due to the cost, and you need to make sure whoevers fitting it knows how to test it. I guesstimate less than 30% of fitters even have a rough idea of what to look for (I spend 1-2 days a week in garages discussing DMF, and am still shocked at the lack of knowledge).

Can you advise engine code bud? Some are Sachs OE, I think mainly on 1.9 100 PS, but I'm sure there are a few others. I should be able to find out from engine code. Most DMF are LuK, who invented the principle and have 95% market share. Some Sachs/LuK are interchangeable we've just found out, as long as you change the clutch and DMF together, but best off sticking with whats fitted now. For whichever DMF you have fitted, currently there is only 1 manufacturer/quality/plant, who supplies both OE and aftermarket. Its not cost effective to produce separately, so all aftermarket parts come off the back of an OEM run. DMF can't be remanufactured. so basically, as long as you identify the correct part, it doesnt matter where you get it from. If you let me know by PM/email roughly where you are, i can advise a few sources i'm sure - and i have 1 very good mail order contact otherwise. Main dealers can be competitive, but rarely.
From the part number I may also be able to advise acceptable tolerance of your current flywheel to ascertain if it needs changing - every DMF is a little different - although if its obviously gotten hot, it certainly needs changing.

Hope that helps bud!

[bonerp]

I dont know whether this would help or hinder, but some Scooby Impreza Turbos have a habit of clutch judder when cold. The way owners tend to get ride of it is to raise the revs right up then drop the clutch - as tho you are launching on a drag strip.
Always sorted mine!!! Was quite good fun too - just have to find a long straight road without much traffic on!
We put it down to contaminated plates that needed cleaning.
Paul