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Thread: Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice

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  1. Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice 
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    Hello all,

    I took my passat for a wheel alignment check at my local kwik fit garage as one of my rear tyres was worn on the inside.

    They replaced the tyre but informed me that I would have to keep replacing the tyre as they were unable to adjust the rear toe arms due to the nut/bolt/ali/steel having been fused together over the years.

    So I went back and asked for a quote to replace both the rear toe arms (as apparently you have to replace both at the same time..). They gave me a quote of just shy of £600 including VAT and labour.

    The rear toe arms alone cost £185 each!

    I've had a little look for rear toe arms on euro parts as it looks like I can purchase rear toe arms for roughly £40-£70 each. Is this a good move? Or shud I just leave it to the experts?

    I can possibly take the parts to a different garage and get the parts fitted cheaper but Im getting a little confused despite putting my reg. number in because there are different names for presumably the same thing.

    For example, is a "Suspension Arm (Rear Axle Left or Right Lower)" the same thing as a rear toe arm?

    Also how easy would this be to fit myself? Sounds like the hardest part will be getting the old toe arm off!

    If anyone has useful videos or advice or experience of a similar issue that would be much apprecuated!

    I just really don't have £600 to spend. (My dad gave me his old car i.e. the passat and I didnt realise how expensive these things are to repair! &#128518

    Thank you for your time,

    Jack
     
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  2. Re: Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passat09Jack View Post
    Hello all,

    I took my passat for a wheel alignment check at my local kwik fit garage as one of my rear tyres was worn on the inside.

    They replaced the tyre but informed me that I would have to keep replacing the tyre as they were unable to adjust the rear toe arms due to the nut/bolt/ali/steel having been fused together over the years.

    So I went back and asked for a quote to replace both the rear toe arms (as apparently you have to replace both at the same time..). They gave me a quote of just shy of £600 including VAT and labour.

    The rear toe arms alone cost £185 each!

    I've had a little look for rear toe arms on euro parts as it looks like I can purchase rear toe arms for roughly £40-£70 each. Is this a good move? Or shud I just leave it to the experts?

    I can possibly take the parts to a different garage and get the parts fitted cheaper but Im getting a little confused despite putting my reg. number in because there are different names for presumably the same thing.

    For example, is a "Suspension Arm (Rear Axle Left or Right Lower)" the same thing as a rear toe arm?

    Also how easy would this be to fit myself? Sounds like the hardest part will be getting the old toe arm off!

    If anyone has useful videos or advice or experience of a similar issue that would be much apprecuated!

    I just really don't have £600 to spend. (My dad gave me his old car i.e. the passat and I didnt realise how expensive these things are to repair! &#128518

    Thank you for your time,

    Jack
    Hey Jack, this depends entirely on your mechanical ability and which adjustable control arms are worn. If you are a competent DIYer the job is easily achievable, but at the same time can be a real S O D, if not then it is best left to those who are.

    I have replaced all of my suspension over the past 10 years.

    I would get a couple more quotes from different independent garages that understand the adjustable nature of the Passat rear end. The quote you have possibly includes removal of the old bolts using cutting equipment, as often there is a metallurgical reaction between the steel bolts and aluminum bush collars that cause them to chemically fuse themselves together. Either that or the fact that to be able to cut bolts of the upper control arms off you sometimes need to remove the rear subframe. This involves alignment pins, and new subframe bolts as they are the stretch type (TTY) and are one time use only. It adds £40 in hardware and some for any special tools needed such as subframe alignment pins T10096 or equivalent.

    Most common failures are the INNER wishbone bushes, one each side that are attached with eccentric bolts, nuts and eccentric washers to the main cross beam to facilitate the major adjustment of the rear alignment (mostly toe with a small bit of camber). These bushes are a few quid each but need a press to remove the old and install the new (unless replacing with poly types that are push fit not press fit, much easier to install by hand with hand tools such as a rubber mallet). More expensive but worth the upgrade.

    Replacement wishbones are between £40 and £80 each, depending on where you source them from, plus new genuine bolts, nuts and washers which may add up to £30 to the cost.

    The second set of "control arms" which are sycle shaped are the UPPER ones that have the same type of eccentric adjustment bolts, nuts and eccentric washers, as the inner wishbone bushes and give mostly camber adjustment with a small bit of toe. They are very difficult to remove if the mounting bolts are seized.

    These are around £20 to £25 each and are made by many automotive brands such as TRW, Febi, Mahle, Lemförder, Delphi and several others. Again new eccentric genuine bolts, washers and nuts are needed.

    Basically all 4 adjusters contribute to the correct rear alignment but affect each other slightly. Hence when I do my own alignment I check the settings at least twice to ensure adjustments I have made to one set of arms does not affect the camber or toe setting that was made by adjusting the other set. A proper 4 wheel alignment would need to be done after the replacement - check whether your quote includes this as it can be anywhere from £50 or £60 to a hefty £150 or more. Some charge by 'per corner' alignment which adds up significantly.

    Below are cheaper examples of the parts for reference - I would buy quality brands not the unbranded or little heard of types. You get what you pay for and this job is too big to do more than once in less than 5 or 6 years because of inferior parts. In fact I'd expect good quality OE parts to last 8 to 10 years.

    Wishbones - lower rear (example)
    For VW Passat 2005-2015 Rear Lower Wishbone Suspension Arms Pair | eBay

    Control arms - upper rear (example)
    FOR VW PASSAT REAR AXLE UPPER LEFT SUSPENSION WISHBONE TRACK CONTROL ARM | eBay

    Full set (example from German seller)
    Transverse Control Arm Set Rear Axle Left Right VW Passat 3C2 362 3C5 365 357 4251369525246 | eBay
     
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  3. Re: Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice 
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    Hey DMitch,

    Thanks for your in depth reply! Much appreciated.

    However, I just want to clarify something. I was told it was the rear toe arms that have seized and need replacing (such as the example one below), there was no mention of the wishbone.

    s://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HARDRACE-REAR-TOE-CONTROL-ARM-FIT-VOLKSWAGEN-PASSAT-B6-B7-2005-2014-/284237093152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46 890.l49286&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0

    Am I getting confused here or is the wishbone and rear toe arm the same thing?

    I've watched a couple of YouTube videos now on how to do the rear toe arm replacement and I think I will leave it to the experts as I dont have the tools (or a ramp!) to safely get under the car to cut away the fused metals.

    Luckily I know someone who is happy to fit the parts I supply. So I guess the next step is for me to find the correct parts (with the nut, bolts and washers included) sorry to be a pain but could recommend a make/model of rear toe arms?

    Here are a couple I've found on euro car parts. Again I can see both the wishbone type that you were talking about.. and the thinner/smaller version I was referring to.

    Starline Suspension Arm | Euro Car Parts

    Starline Suspension Arm | Euro Car Parts

    I am a little confused still 😆

    Thanking you in advance!
    Cheers,
    Jack
     
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  4. Re: Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice 
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    Hi Jack, I use Mister Auto, (wow I'm not allowed to say A u t o D o c - they have various online reiterations but are the same company in Germany), the dealership, as prices are just not as bad as you think sometimes and genuine is better in a lot of cases, and then outlets like ECP and GFS. Finally I will use ebay and the like usually buying from highly rated sellers I've used before. Good brands are those I already mentioned but there are others such as FAG, FAI, AC Delco, Gates, SKF and many more. There are also copies of these out there so where you get parts from is just as important as the brand. Things like Starline, Q Drive, Ocap and other obscure sounding brands from ECP and others are bargain basement and not fit for purpose in my experience. I put TRW control arms, TRW droplinks and Sachs shock absorbers and springs on my car but would consider Febi, Mahle, Delphi and Lemförder brands out of the others mentioned.

    The mistake some mechanics make is that they think there is one part that adjusts toe and one that adjusts camber. In reality, and from much experience of VAG rear suspension setups, the two sets of eccentric bolts and washers cause movement of both in varying degrees. Replacing the UPPER control arms (to which you have been advised), may not fully remove your tyre wear issue but perhaps slow it down somewhat. These arms are in the linked example I provided and are curved at one end, straightening out at the other and have a T cross section.

    The bushes at the INNER ends of the large wishbones that hold your rear springs cause the wishbones to twist when worn and is the number one reason for inner edge tyre wear on these cars. Worn droplinks of the anti roll bar can also contribute to additional positive camber if worn. The range of toe movement of the wishbone adjustment is several degrees either side. The range of movement for the upper control arms is quite a bit less and these help correct the camber more than the toe. If the camber is brought in to under 1° negative (mine is 0.5° negative each side) and the toe still way out because your wishbone bushes are worn, your tyre wear will still be very bad.

    If you can PM me your email address and I will share photos I have of the worn parts in situ plus replacement.
     
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  5. Re: Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice 
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    I am guessing your car is a 2009 Passat 3C, the rear end is virtually identical to the Golf 5 GTI we did last Thursday and we used the Meyle full kits because the fasteners MUST be replaced as they are one time only and the toe adjuster eccentric bolts will have to be destroyed to get them out. The only way we have found to get these out is by using an air powered saw with a thin cut down hacksaw blade down the side of the bush, through the bolt skimming BUT NOT cutting into the subframe surface, it is a job virtually impossible to do any other way. This is an arm remove after cutting down the other side, the bolt is completely solid inside the bush




    Once the arm is out you can either push the old bush out (we torch them with the oxy) and replace them with standard but we push people to havePowerflex even if we, as we were, fitting new arms. It is a VERY expensive suspension system and on this particular job we did not remove the subframe for Powdercoating as usually or replace the springs (new H&R anyway) or the original rear dampers and with using all Febi or Meyle aftermarket parts with a few genuine bolts, the bill is £2k.



    Toe setting eccentrics


    [MEDIA=flickr]2heUvZn[/MEDIA]


    Fully rebuilt with Powdercoated subframe


    [MEDIA=flickr]2heTBhT[/MEDIA]
    Anthropogenic climate change, the biggest con inflicted on mankind since religion...

    Slava Ukraini
    !


     
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  6. Re: Rear toe arm replacement. Need advice 
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    Jack, just to add the "toe" arms you linked in your earlier post were the static ones which have no adjustment. If badly worn, the bushes on these can cause the alignment to be out a little but not to the extent that the main wishbone bushes would cause if worn. They are around £30 each, but when I changed mine, the bushes on the old part were not in a terrible condition.

    The easiest way to tell what is causing the wear is to look at the INNER wishbone bushes which should be fairly central where mounted in the frame. If they are not and the arm visibly twisting then these bushes are shot and the main cause of your bad tyre wear. I bought a cheap Gunson magnetic camber guage which has been invaluable to me (but I do my own wheel alignment and periodic adjustment of such and get exceptionally low tyre wear per axle set).

    Also you are not far away from me, just down the coast a bit it seems? I'm just the other side of Worthing.
    Last edited by DMitch16; 21-07-2021 at 02:32 PM.
    Mad Mitch
    VW Passat 2.0 Tdi Sport 170 BMR Engine, JPQ G/Box, DSG
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