Dynamic pump timing

[drpellypo]

Hi all.

Have just fitted new cambelts/waterpump/thermostat on my 2002 AYM 2.5. Used all the locking tools and my mate who did the work followed the elsawin instructions with regards to order of things and torque settings etc. However, car is running really clattery, down on power, and occasionally jolts when pulling away (took it on 5 mile test drive.) I'm assuming this means the timing is out? Car didn't do this before. I have full version of VCDS and have seen instructions on how to check the timing, but can you do any actual adjustment in VCDS? If so, how?

[drpellypo]

Oh, and also, I've just read a guide on here about not being able to take the front end off due to their being ATF pipes in the way. My friend removed the entire front end. Does this mean he has opened up pipes that contain ATF fluid and some has ended up on my drive??

[ceilidhalfie]

You can only CHECK the Fuel Injection Pump Timing with VCDS. As stated in the ELSAWIN manual, first, check the engine temp is >83degrees, then second check the timing reading in VCDS when at 100%. Spec is 2% +- 2degrees RETARDED (or LATE as VCDS reports). If out of spec, again refer to the procedure in ELSAWIN to manually adjust timing. Loosen the 3 bolts on the LH cam sprocket, do not adjust the belt tension (unless the pointers are mis-aligned). With a 24mm (I THINK) spanner on the central bolt (BUT DO NOT LOOSEN) of the Fuel Injection Pump pulley, rotate the pulley a little - clockwise to advance, anti-clockwise to retard. Retighten the 3 bolts on the cam sprocket (to 25nm I think). When the injection pump timing belt was installed by your mate the 3 bolts should have been aligned centrally in the elongated holes of the sprocket - this is what gives the ability to adjust the timing only a little BUT SHOULD BE sufficient to get timing in spec. Re-run VCDS to re-check timing.
Regarding ATF pipes, you were looking at one of my posts. I have a 2002 AKE automatic engine and you can take the front off this car and swing like a gate WITH THE ATF PIPES STILL CONNECTED. You need to check with your mate if he did it this way. If he disconnected ATF pipes and lost fluid from the ATF gearbox (do you have an automatic??), the gearbox ATF level MUST be checked and re-filled if neccessary. Again, refer to the ELSAWIN manual. Low ATF level in the gearbox will result in sticking gear changes - but I don't believe loss in power.

You say "the car is running really clattery, down on power". Have you checked the big circlips are on tight on the charged air hoses for the turbo. If one of these is loose (letting out air) or has blown off, you will get this effect.

Best of luck with the fix.

[drpellypo]

Thank you SO much for your reply! Re the ATF fluid he said he tied the pipe up high and only a trickle of fluid was lost - no more than 50ml. To do the above, does the front end have to come off again? I have elsawin but wasn't able to find pump timing instructions. Will have another look.

Oh, one slight sticking point. If I try to run the car at idle to warm up, it stalls. This has only happened once but I didn't want to run it again. I ran VCDS scan and it throws up 17583/P1175/004469 - Pre-Injection Turned Off
I'm assuming this is because timing is out? Thanks again for your reply. I had virtually no sleep last night because I'm so worried this is going to cost me a fortune. Hopefully my dad-in-law who's a mechanic might be able to help once we find the elsawin article and if the front end doesn't have to come off again.

[BPApsolut]

See this page, please: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-scope/TDIGraph.html

end this picture



Regards,
B

[ceilidhalfie]

Thank you SO much for your reply! Re the ATF fluid he said he tied the pipe up high and only a trickle of fluid was lost - no more than 50ml. To do the above, does the front end have to come off again? I have elsawin but wasn't able to find pump timing instructions. Will have another look.

Oh, one slight sticking point. If I try to run the car at idle to warm up, it stalls. This has only happened once but I didn't want to run it again. I ran VCDS scan and it throws up 17583/P1175/004469 - Pre-Injection Turned Off
I'm assuming this is because timing is out? Thanks again for your reply. I had virtually no sleep last night because I'm so worried this is going to cost me a fortune. Hopefully my dad-in-law who's a mechanic might be able to help once we find the elsawin article and if the front end doesn't have to come off again.

To manually adjujst timing, easist way is to put lock carrier in service position and remove the left and right front cam covers. You need to find out the current timing setting though before you attempt adjujsting - you need to know if you are going ot advance or retard!

[drpellypo]

I'll pass that on - thanks. I'm hoping it doesn't stall again on tickover when my mechanic does this as that will make the timing impossible to check, no? As it won't get up to 85c

[adamss24]

Oh, and also, I've just read a guide on here about not being able to take the front end off due to their being ATF pipes in the way. My friend removed the entire front end. Does this mean he has opened up pipes that contain ATF fluid and some has ended up on my drive??

Where about's are you ? You don't need the bumper off to change the pump or move the timing, it can be done if you have small hands...

[drpellypo]

Other end of the country

We managed to get the covers etc off to do the pump timing. Car ran, very very rattly (sounded like it was firing on two cylinders at a time) but stayed ticking over long enough to measure with VCDS. Result came back that it was massively advanced. Followed elsawin instructions to retard. Ran again, measured again, timing still advanced. Still running rough and vibrating. My mechanic turned the pump to retard a tiny tiny fraction, car still rough but this time cut out after it hit about 72c. This would lead me to think it's gone very retarded? Noteworthy that the above was repeated several times, over the course of two hours, slightly turning clockwise and anti-clockwise accordingly. Non of these times did the engine run right or could we get VCDS to display retarded, cos it wouldn't run long enough. Also worth noting the bolt (2, I think it is, on Elsawin) that it says do not turn, was not touched. This is the centre bolt.

Re mentioning about the tooth, I'm not sure what to do to resolve this? Is it a case of taking the belt off and putting back on?

Thanks for all the advice chaps.

[drpellypo]

Well, nearly 2 months later the car is now sorted. The entire job had to be re-done again, including parts! An absolute disaster by all accounts. The belt wasn't installed correctly and it was slack. Running the car on tickover to try and adjust pump timing was wearing away at the belt to the point, where, when the garage I took it to took the belt off, they insisted the belt hadn't been changed and was an old one - it was that worn. Also in the process the waterpump got chewed up. So add the £350 I paid for parts to the second bill of £690 to re-do everything and replace the whole kit plus the pulleys and I'm at a third of the cars value! Still, it's done now, and car is nice and quiet on tickover. Lesson to learn? If you aren't 100% sure what you're doing, even if you have the correct elsawin instructions and the full locking kit, don't bother! I learnt that by a very very costly mistake.

Incidentally, I now have the locking kit for sale on ebay if anyone needs one. Just search for pixiesuzy.