Advice Please – my Car’s Been Clocked

[thedktor]

Bought a 4 yr old Passat last week from a local s/h car dealer. Car in great shape but no history apart from 2 MoT certificates which fitted in with the mileage of 94k.

However, subsequent investigation, (VW service history, and MoT @ Direct.gov) shows it had done 156k back in March!

The MoT certificates are fakes, using the original MoT stations and dates, but altered mileage.

Sh----ttt.

The dealer made it very clear they could not guarantee the mileage, including “Sold as seen, mileage cannot be warranted” on the invoice, and hence I got it quite cheaply.

Now, what are my rights? Does the statement on the invoice work in their favour or is it just meaningless words? Can the fact that the MoT certificates be proved to be fakes put them in a difficult position?

Worse is that I have spent over £400 on a cambelt and some other work.

I have no desire to keep the car, even if its mechanically sound its resale value is not good.


Advice welcome!


Thanks


Steve

[Eshrules]

I'm confused by the fake MOT thing - are the MOT's the current and previous? Please provide the dates of MOTs and recorded mileage for each (paper copies vs online details, if available please)

What mileage is the vehicle displaying?

Do you have the original bill of sale for the vehicle and what mileage was stated on this?

Did you HPI check the vehicle?

In fairness to the dealer, the vehicle may have been sold innocently, unless there's sufficient proof that they've sold it (knowingly) clocked, you're going to have a hard time getting any cash back.

If, however, you can prove, via the online MOT system vs the Paper MOT cert's you have that they've been doctored, there's a whole new world of trouble about to come knocking on their door

[SC03OTT]

FYI, I have it under good authority that "sold as seen" does NOT apply to dealers, no matter how many times they say it or however big the writing is on your invoice.

That info came from a car dealer.

Don't know how much help that wil be to you however.

[thedktor]

Thanks for the replies.


OK, so the car’s first MoT was March 2010 and online it shows as 126,607, but the paper certificate shows 65931

2nd MoT March 2011 online shows 155,900, but the paper certificate only 87824

Also VW’s service history backs up both online mileages on the Direct.gov MoT history site.

The dealers invoice does not state mileage just “Sold as seen, mileage cannot be warranted”, and I bought it last week with approx 94k miles.

The two paper MoT’s are definitely fakes as they have identical printing style despite being from garages many miles apart. Someone has simply copied all the original details and just changed the mileage.

No, I did not do an Hpi check as the garage make it clear that they do….. but not convinced the mileage gets picked up anyway normally?

I think its unlikely that the dealer clocked it themselves, but as the “supplier” they are responsible to ensure the vehicle is ok surely?

[Eshrules]

I would present those facts, in a letter, to the dealer and request a full and complete refund. Enclose copies (not the originals!) of the 'fake' MOTs, a printout of the DVLA online MOTs and the service history obtained from VW so that they can be referred to in the letter to support your findings. Send the letter special delivery (this allows total and complete tracking of the letter, it's worth the ££, trust me) and state that you require a reply within 14 working days.

In the meantime, speak to consumer direct - primarily to make sure I'm not giving you bum info but also so that a case is opened. Trading Standards are keen to investigate clocked cars, especially where there is proof that it may be an intentional practice.

I presume you didn't see a copy of the HPI report - it doesn't help you in this instance, but never purchase a used car without carrying one out yourself. Experian and such like are usually fairly accurate with their information and yes, it will display the mileage.

FWIW, the bill of sale should state the mileage at the point of sale. They can attempt to disclaim all they like, statutory rights cannot be removed nor disclaimed against. As a public consumer, you retain those regardless of the terms of sale - that's why they're called statutory rights.

I'd like to mention at this point, the advice I offer is based on personal experience, not as an expert in the field.

It may or may not prove useful, but my thread is located here :

BX02KZW - A Car with a hidden history?

[thedktor]

Thanks very much Eshrules.

But as usual with the car business its not looking good for me as the consumer.

Had a long discussion with the garage owner and they will not take back the car as they made it very clear the mileage could not be guaranteed.

Long conversation with not one but two people at Consumer Direct and it seems I have nothing that will stand up in court. The false MoT certificates “may” be taken up by Trading Standards but this is completely independent of my rights concerning my car, ie it is not a good enough reason to return the car unless I can prove the dealer did it, or knew about it - pretty much impossible.

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 lays down several conditions that all goods sold by a trader must meet. The goods must be:

-as described
-of satisfactory quality
-fit for purpose


The car is as they described, there is nothing wrong with it as such, and there is nothing that obviously makes it unfit for purpose.

Having a high mileage does not count if the car is still in good, safe, working order, and it is not illegal to sell a car with modified mileage, unless you did it! And proof is needed…

Also, the fact that I got it for a relatively low price does me no favours when you look at the legal blurb for what things like “satisfactory quality” means. The car *is* of “satisfactory quality” for a car with 160k miles priced at xx pounds. If I had paid £10k it’s a different matter.

“The law is an ass” so the expression goes….

[mikeybutch]

The law would expect you to have regard to the principle of "Let the buyer beware"If the car was cheap but fit for purpose then there had to be a reason and the dealer is bound to know it was clocked and left to a buyer to check.Trading Standards should be interested in checking whether the dealer makes a habit of this bad behavior and if so determining whether it is the dealer doing the clocking.The previous owner could be asked what mileage was showing when the dealer bought it but I think he would have covered his tracks somehow.How to you intend to sell the car?

[Sam]

As someone who spent a lot of time working with Carl on his issue, there's enough information in the thread he's linked above to fight this and win.

[Eshrules]

AFAIK, Consumer Direct aren't in a position, nor are they qualified to offer specific advice on eligibility of a case for court action.

If you read the thread I linked you to, your situation is very similar, if not identical to mine - the fact that the supplying dealer stated mileage couldn't be verified is of no relevance here.

Somewhere, be it on the original advert, the bill of sale or the V5 - the mileage at point of sale would have been recorded by the dealer.

The fact that online MOTs prove the MOTs (paper copies) supplied by the dealer are false is sufficient to reject the vehicle on it's own. The dealer has to show that they completed sufficient checks to ensure the vehicle was of accurate description.

Deliberately doctoring documents to sell a vehicle with amended mileage contradicts this responsibility.

In addition you have service history which supports this.

I specifically said to contact the dealer in writing as (we all know) companies can and will dismiss any potentially serious issues when raised verbally.

As soon as a complaint is made in writing, a formal procedure has to be used and the complaint has to be addressed.

Did you purchase the car with cash or on a HPI agreement? (if the latter, your position will be greatly strengthened).

Trust me when I say this - there will be many a time where an issue arises that seems impossible to resolve. I've been through some immensely complicated issues and there's not a single one I've lost.

Trading standards (and the police) are very interested in investigating garages suspected of selling clocked cars.

Perseverance is key.

[thedktor]

*Update* My wife managed to speak directly to our local Trading Standards office who took a different stance and said we had every right to demand a refund on the car, based on the MoT certificates.

The MoT certificates supplied with the car are sufficient to be “the description” of the car [its mileage] and hence it is “not as described” under the Sales of Good Act.

And the fact that the MoT’s are forgeries anyway leaves the garage very little to stand on as they have a/ not taken reasonable steps to verify the vehicle’s mileage, and b/ supplied a vehicle with false documents.

In fact the Trading Standards guy is just waiting for the go-ahead, from us, to prosecute the dealer! ( for illegal trading/bad practice or whatever it is).

Of course this is all very good but I suspect the dealer will not give in without a fight……..

Letter on its way today.