Piezo Injector Failure, and subsequent detection and repair.

Engine cut out today and won't run. something to do with injector electrics?
Got fault codes:

004160 - supply voltage A for injectors circuit malfunction P1040 - 006 short to plus intermittent, freq 2, 1856rpm

and

008518 - supply voltage for fuel injector grp A : Open circuit P2146 - 009 - open or short to ground intermittent, freq 9


Likely to be a failed injector.

A8 tech advised disconnecting one injector at a time. Engine should run with faulty one disconnected but not when all four connected. Thanks A8, I am giving that a go....

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Problem at the moment is how to pull connectors off the injectors. There is some kind of latch that I can't release and I don't want to break the plastic. I suspect there is a fancy tool for this. Anyone know how to disconnect without it? The connector on my injectors is tiny - about 8mm x 6mm - and should pull off vertically.

I have measured the resistance of the injectors from the connector at the end of the engine block. All four have same resistance which looks good. The return wire for each is connected in pairs. On one pair, the return wire has a connection to ground, the other pair is not grounded. I suspect there should be no circuit to ground on any of the injectors.

Any help welcome...

Patrick

Puzzling thing is the car has done 140k, all injectors are original (date coded) and I've had the car just 500miles. Am I just unlucky.. are the others on their way out...

My 2006 2.0tdi engine failed a couple of days ago. It has 52k miles on it

Ive got exactly the same two fault codes as you have. Its only four months out of the manufacturers warranty.
Ive asked audi Uk for a goodwill contribution, but am not hopeful.
A new injector is being quoted at £433!, before any labour.

Is there anything simple these codes could represent rather than a faulty injector?

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The wiring harness

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a8 tech

Its one or more of the injectors and when one fails so the circuit fails, use long nose pliers to remove the plugsAttachment 7781

Remove the cylinder head cover and disconnect the 2pin connectors from all pump/injector elements.

On every element measure the resistance between a pin of the connector and the element housing.

Replace the pump/injector element on which you can measure a resistance (short circuit to earth).

To prevent renewed resistance when replacing a pump/injector element also replace the wiring loom for the elements in the cylinder head

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Second cylinder from front (is it 2 or 3) is the one with resistance to ground (170 Ohms). Engine runs with it disconnected. Thanks for confirming no special tool for connectors.

Thinking of taking it steady and putting new one in myself. Then if there's a next time it won't be such a big deal. I've read there are stretch bolts to replace etc. Planning to use Erwin online manuals for info.

Looking at injectors on ebay. Best at moment is 250 euros new from Germany with my part code. In the past few months a couple of folks have sold ones which they bought at full wak and didn't need as loom was only fault in the end - typically fetched £150. Bet they're not pleased.

Cheers & thanks
Patrick

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Thanks for the tips A8. I'll be putting them into practice....
Bought a secondhand injector from Germany today. Let's see if this turns out to be a good or bad idea???? Took this route after asking local dealer for prices today. Here they are for future reference:

Parts only -
Exchange injector unit £541
New injector unit £714
New injector wiring loom £ 77

Parts and fitting -
Exchange injector unit £ 873
New injector unit £1046 :aargh4:
New injector wiring loom £ 88

So the labour is £330 for an injector swap. What's that 3.5 hrs?

I find this quite shocking. I'm sure Audi could charge less for the exchange units even if the new ones are dear.
Spoke to an injector refurbishers in Yorkshire who said for the first few years the manufacturers (in this case Siemens) don't release parts to protect the dealers interests. After another year or so it may be possible to get these injectors refurbed - hopefully for a bit less than £540!!

Studying the manual now to make sure I don't **** the job up.
Must recommend https://erwin.audi.com website to anyone who's not been there. This is the official place for VW group workshop info. For 4 Euros an hour you get unlimited access to all service documentation for you exact vehicle. It seems to be exactly the same as the dealers use and it's kept bang up to date with commonly occuring known faults etc. too.

Wish me luck...

I can't believe how expensive the parts are - you could buy a whole engine from a crashed car for much less! I have piezo injectors too - I just hope they don't fail!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2008-VW-MK5-GO...item27addb4884

I think you'll find you'll need to modify a bit of this engine as its meant to go in sideways (transverse). A4s run lengthways (longitudinal). Lord only knows what problems you'll come across trying to fit that.
I'd rather repair a good KNOWN engine.

If its chucked a rod or similar that might be a different story.

Picked up the bits to go with the injector at the dealer today.

There is a kit of parts. In it there are two large O-rings which is the main thing people mention replacing every time an injector is taken out. Also the kit has a new adjuster grub screw for the rocker arm and a mating "ball pin" that goes on top of the injector. The manual says these need to be replaced if a new injector is fitted or if the old parts are worn. I suppose the cup shape on the original rocker adjuster screw will wear to suit the old injector and won't fit snugly into a new one (or a second hand replacement for that matter). The kit also includes a small o-ring to go with the ball pin.

The kit costs £22.60. (Not so bad as I'm sure I'd read the seals were £60?)

Got stretch bolts for the injector too.
Manual is contradictory regarding renewal of bolts for rocker rail. Dealer advised not normally renewed so won't bother.


Funny bit was the parts guy said he had just put the same parts kit out for their workshop job this morning. "D'you do many injectors?" I asked. "No it's just a coincidence" was the reply. Coincidence my *rse!:biglaugh:

Job done... for now. Followed manual to the letter and second hand injector seems to work ok. Setting rocker adjusters is a bit scary as getting them too tight could do serious damage when the engine turns over. Made a few tools from pictures in the manual - slide hammer to pull injector and press for pushing back in. The press method is interesting - it compresses the spring on the injector while the seals hold the injector from sliding home then as the force is increased the seals slip and the spring quickly drives the injector hard down onto its seat with a sharp clang. A straight edge showed the injector is down level with all the others.

Things I've noticed now the car runs:
Car used to be lumpy at 1800rpm like many other people have reported and idle was lumpy with the engine half warmed up. Particularly the day the injector failed there was slight hesitation/missing for most of the 20mile journey. This seems to have gone away with the new injector although I'm paranoid about it and keep thinking road vibrations are the engine missing. I suspect that the roughness before was the development of the electrical fault in the injector.

The rocker ball pins on all the injectors had warn pretty badly and there was a lot of slack. Putting the rocker shaft back after injector replacement means they all have to be adjusted. The top end of the engine is much quieter now - used to be tappety. Manual says to replace worn ball pins and there in the £22 kit might think about doing them incase they've worn through the case hardening - not a big job.

Next - plan is to look inside the failed injector. I've read about the common cause of failures on a forum:

"Re: Diesel injector fault

I don’t know how frequent is in your country, but in my country (RO) is very common
The information came from other people’s experience and, believe me, there are 17 pages about this problem.
I think it can’t be prevented. An electrical coil inside injector became hot and burns making injector useless. After that, the engine stops. You can restart the engine only if you disconnect the harness from the defective injector. In this case, the engine will work in 3 pistons
As I told you before, depends on when the injectors was changed. Since mid of 2007 the new injectors appears to be ok (other people say mid of 2008)

In 2008, it seems that Siemens finally managed to fix the problem in their injectors.
If you bought the injectors just 2 months ago, then I think you won’t have any more problems…
VW never replaced the Simens’ injectors with others made by Bosch. They continued to use both of them until they dropped the Pumpe-Düse-System (mid of 2008)."

Just maybe I can see the failed spring they talk about and do something with it??? In time for the next on to go.

Thanks for you help on this one A8tech.:beerchug:

Patrick

Result, as I mentioned ages ago the injectors are the fault and the loom is normally only damaged by the operator removing and damaging the connections.The mods could use this thread as a sticky
Well done Patrick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a8 tech

.The mods could use this thread as a sticky

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;)

Just an update on mine...
As it was only four months out of warranty, audi Uk contributed 40% to the cost of the repairs. I needed a new wiring harness too apparently as a couple of the wires were broken on that.
Bill inc labour from the *********** came to £529.
I wasnt allowed to keep the offending injector as apparently they are returned for refurbishment.... How convenient.

Interesting read guys, thanks for posting. I have a B7 2.0 TDi 170 and had the injector problem which was remedied by a local garage at a total cost to me of just over £700....the car was only about 4 or 5 months out of warranty but I hadn't lodged a claim with Audi Uk - incidentally does someone have their contact details? The car ran fine until last night.....just as I pulled into my drive the engine cut out and didn't restart :aargh4:. I tried again this morning but the scenario was just too fresh and familiar for me to not be so p---d off. 2 injectors in as many months???? Could this be??? What shall I do? There's no way I'm forking out for another hefty repair bill.:1zhelp:

Audi customer service 0800699888

Did you have your wiring loom replaced at the same time as the injector? Only reason I ask is that if you dont have the full diagnostic that Audi ********hips do, then the fault codes generated could also indicate a faulty loom or a faulty injector.
Incidentally my wiring loom needed replacing too ( It was about £60 for the part)

Thanks for that. I didn't have the wiring loom replaced only the injector but the car had been running totally fine since so wouldn't a faulty wiring loom have been evident at that time?
I spoke to Audi Customer Services. They can't offer any goodwill on the previous repairs as they were carried out by non-Audi garage. They recommend I get the car to Audi for them to carry out a proper diagnostic check and they'll take it from there. If it's something like the injector again then they can consider goodwill from that point.
I don't want to take the car back to the garage which carried out the repair a few weeks ago for fear that they will just tell me it's one of the other injectors and not the one they replaced. Should I expect the other injectors to fail in time until they have all been replaced? Surely not.

Im not sure how a faulty harness would manifest. The audi garage who did the work on mine told me it wouldnt affect it. Mmmm.

I dont recall have any symptoms prior to the injector failure. However since then Ive occasionally felt, on occasion the engine just hesitate when Im doing a reasonable speed on the motorway. Never enough to see a drop in rpm, and only for a split second. Im probably imagining it, and hasnt happened with cruise control on. I would never have noticed if i wasnt being a pessimist and expecting another problem.

The engine hesitancy isn't your imagination I'm afraid.....it's mine too!!:o
This trait was very prominent before the injector failure the first time round. On Sunday, however, it hesitated a bit only shortly before shutting down so not much warning really.

Thats not good news, as Im selling it to a family member!

When i say it hesitated, it was only a very brief hesitation, it was only milliseconds long, certainly not long enough to see a reduction in rpm. Not long enough to even glance at the rpm gauge.

Is this what you had, or was it a different symptom?

It was pretty much the same. The hesitancy was small but enough to be noticed.

The car is still parked up...idle. I took off the cam cover and did the disconnecting one injector at a time analysis. It wasn't such a great surprise to find that indeed when I disconnected one of them the car did start up - more than likely another faulty injector?
Does anyone know which cylinder is cylinder number 1? Is it the one furthest from the windscreen or nearest?
Thanks.

furthest from the windscreen

Thanks Kenney.
Well there you go guys...2 injectors in as many months!!! My car is a Sept 06 56 and only done 52k miles. Injector number 1 replaced only last month and now it looks like number 2 is faulty.....Anyway this time its going to the *********** and I'm going to get Audi to pay for as much as possible. This is simply rediculous.

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Ok point taken and yes the thread shouldn't turn into a "who should pay" thread.

However, so called "specialist" garages have every right to specialise in what they do. If they can gain knowledge and experience on working on Audi's or any other car then why not? Why should the dealerships have a monopoly on servicing their own cars and use this position to charge extortionate rates? I don't agree with what you're saying in this regard.
Yes, people should simply take out an extended warranty....if they can justify, what is it now £1500 a year? There are other independant warranty companies so people should shop around and obviously check the smallprint to be clear about what is covered.

More on topic....I'm just shocked at how and why a part such as the injector should become faulty on so many cars at such a young age with low mileage....and now I have a second one to replace...too right I would look to get some sort of contribution from Audi in putting it right. It's clearly a manufacturing defect whether it becomes faulty within the warranty period or not. The injector is not a part which you would expect to replace for no other apparent reason - would you agree?

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Got my quote through today from audi and prices were as follows

Parts only -
Exchange injector unit £240
New injector unit £483
New injector wiring loom £ 62

All exc VAT

If you ask me its ******* scandalous.

Can anyone advise on what sort of injectors the faulty ones are actually replaced with?? Are they more reliable?

Got quote from audi looks like im going to have to pay it £999.70 including VAT and labour..... and they have no courtesy car available for 2 weeks which is **** they shud gimmie a TT RS out the showroom cos they rich enough and they are extortionate with all prices, so would make their money back in a day

Im not sure why this shouldnt turn into a "who should pay thread"

If the part was £50, then i wouldnt be so bothered. But to get a £1000 bill for a car just out of warranty should, should be unexpected.

Injectors for other brands are £40. As consumers were stuck as there is only one source for audis very expensive part.

It seems a relatively common problem. How common does it have to be before audi accept its an issue that should always be covered by them, whether in warranty or not?

My car is in at the dealers. The bill is over £1000. They are an empowered centre i.e. they have delegated authority to make their own goodwill decisions and are completely unwilling to offer me any goodwill. I've been trying and trying on the phone and even highlighted the fact that this is the second injector to go in 2 months and they're not interested at all. I am absolutely disgusted at their arrogance. Even Audi UK customer care have offered to match any goodwill the dealer is willing to give but the dealer's not having any of it!!!! I'm going to tow my car out of there and take it elsewhere, they are never getting my custom.:zx11:

Second injector has now been replaced. I have now had 2 injectors fitted in the last 2 months at a cost of about £1400.....what should my expectation be now? Does anyone know if the remaining injectors a very likely to follow suit and fail?

Zaz. Is yours a 140TDi as the prices you quote for parts are actually a lot lower than they could be. My quote for 170TDi injectors were almost double - see earlier in this thread. If it is 140, I was not aware those injectors had the same reputation for failure. If 170, you have very good prices, believe it or not.

Hope you're all sorted now.

Sorry folks, prices I had seen were not yours, zaz. They were Craggit's prices. Maybe he has a 140.

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Guys mine is a 170 and I actually got the repairs carried out by a non-franchise garage as the Audi dealership couldn't care less about the problem.

a8 tech, I wonder if you could tell me, are the new injectors any more reliable than the failed ones in the long term i.e. are they technically different or is the piezo element problem solved? Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zaz

Guys mine is a 170 and I actually got the repairs carried out by a non-franchise garage as the Audi dealership couldn't care less about the problem.

a8 tech, I wonder if you could tell me, are the new injectors any more reliable than the failed ones in the long term i.e. are they technically different or is the piezo element problem solved? Thanks.

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Zaz - take a look at my reply on 6 Feb in this thread. I found a reference to upgraded injectors on later models.

Just a quick one guys...I've just had mine diagnosed as being a faulty injector (lucky me i know!!) i have an A3 2.0TDI Q 170...BUT....i have just put some redex in the tank and find it a little coincidental that an injector fault has appeared, any chance that the fault could just be a blockage?? i have heard that these can be cleaned in a sonic bath if that is the case....obviously I'm hoping because a £750 repair bill is not what i hope to pay!!

The fault the thread is generally referring to is an electrical failure in the injector. So no kind of cleaning will fix that. Maybe you have some other problem though.

As a general note, there are used injectors for the 170TDi like I bought still on ebay for about £200. May be worth paying someone to fit or DIY. I'm sure it would work in the short term - can speak for reliability long term.

Good luck.
Patrick