Audi 80 AAZ timing belt follow up.

Further to my post earlier regarding my Audi 80 td diesel 1994 AAZ.

It was found to be the timing belt, I took the cover off today and it was completely snapped in two.

Now, I'd only gone a few yards as it goes, was in second gear, I think, driving time no more than 1 to 2 minutes.

Basically is there any way of testing to see if there is any damage without taking the engine to bits? Cranking around one of the pulleys to listen for a clunking sound or smooth rotation, something like that? The teeth on all the pulleys are intact I see that a very cheap belt can be found on ebay, I was thinking of getting that and just giving it a test.

I would imagine all the timing marks are out, how difficult are they to get right?(doesn't help there's no specific manual, I have a golf vento one it says it covers my engine but it doesn't look like the one in the illustrations).

Finally, if no test is available, how difficult is changing the valves? (assuming bent) Can they be done with the engine in car?

I am no where near an experienced D.I.Y mechanic but I reckon if it's going to be scraped (the value of the car prevents very expensive garage bills) any way no harm trying; could be a learning curve.

Thanks.

the best thing to do is line the marks up and fit a new belt, then see how it runs, you maybe lucky, but until you put a belt on its hard to say bud

the valves will almost certainly be bent. i know that and phil knows that. you can remove the rocker cover and pull the camshaft out. if any valves are sat low, then they are bent. now, assuming the head has to come off and some new valves fitted, then a garage is going to be charging you around £600 minimum to do a proper job. you need valves, a headgasket, a head set, head bolts, head skim, labour to lap all the valves in, and of course a timing belt kit with new tensioner. it is possible diy, you only have to remove the head, but you will need specialist tools, and still need to spend on parts. the car may only have limited value, but what else are you going to replace it with ? if the rest of the car is good, then why scrap it for an unknown vehicle, that could cost you an arm and a leg to run.

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Originally Posted by zollaf

but what else are you going to replace it with ? if the rest of the car is good, then why scrap it for an unknown vehicle, that could cost you an arm and a leg to run.

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The car run as sweet has a nut, the engine compartment immaculate, with just a little over 100,000 miles on it. The timing belt was changed (before I had it) at around 86,000.

Now, if the valves can be replaced with the engine in the car (and checked), and the tools and parts you describe are not THAT expensive, it may be worth a go.

I assume it's not a masisvely difficult professional job.

But, perhaps a cheap timing belt might be the first port of call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minny

The car run as sweet has a nut, the engine compartment immaculate, with just a little over 100,000 miles on it. The timing belt was changed (before I had it) at around 86,000.

Now, if the valves can be replaced with the engine in the car (and checked), and the tools and parts you describe are not THAT expensive, it may be worth a go.

I assume it's not a masisvely difficult professional job.

But, perhaps a cheap timing belt might be the first port of call.

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it isnt a big job, but then ive been doing it for 17 odd yrs on a weekly basis, off the top of my head you will need a torque wrench, angle gauge (for torqueing up the head, a valve spring compressor, a pencil magnet, a selection of spanners and sockets, and use of autodata or similar, if you do go ahead if you need any info or tech data pm me and i will send the info on

This is all very optimistic. I have the spanners and sockets, the other stuff would need to be costed, they look quite expensive.

And then there's finding suitable instructions, but all is not lost!

Thanks fellas.

Just a second thought, i do have the Haynes manual, to the Golf and vento but I also have the manual to my previous Audi 80, that was petrol though.

Are the procedures similar or same for petrol and diesel, with a few differences differences?

if the golf diesel engine looks like yours then the actual strip down will be the same, if anything it will give you a reference to go to if needs be

Here's a check list and costings on ebay, is there anything at all that I have missed?




valves £15.50

head gasket (assume this is in the head set below)

head set < £10

head bolts £25

torque wrench £20 (bought this any way that price)

angle gauge £8 - 18

valve spring compressor £20 - 50

pencil magnet couldn't find one

Elsawin £7

timing belt £8 - 30

tensioner £18



That leaves the head skim mentioned by Zollaf. Is this cleaning the old gaskets off and such? Is that something that can be done at by me (bearing in mind it's having a go at fixing it or scraping it).

Also, why would I need a new tensioner? The one on the engine along with all the pullys look in fine order to me.

The ebay links if anyone is looking for similar:

Head set

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDI-80-100-VW...item41535464af

Head Bolts

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUDI-80-A3-A4-...item3a5de901c9

Spring compressor (is OHV correct?)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Valve-S...item2ea8e46509

Torque

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PRO-1-2-DRIVE-...item5adc927851

Angel gauge

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Laser-Torque-A...item2c54b68b6c

Valves

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-100-2-4TD...item230acc9b3a

Elsawin

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ELSAWIN-3-70-A...item3cae7fc6e4

Tensioner pully


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-Drive-Bel...item3cb0e522ec


Thanks.

i would double check the headset comes with the head gasket, at that price i think it will be seperate, i strongly recommend replacing everything to do with the timing belt, tensioner and idlers,the head skim basicly shaves a small amount off the head face to ensure its 100% flat

p.s i dont thin the spring compressor you have linked will do the job, i will have a look at mine at work tomorrow, i know it does the job on these heads, if it looks different to that one i can always let you borrow it for a week or so, if you cover the postage

save money by not buying an angle guage. just use a kids protractor to mark a piece of card and use that, unless you only need 90 or 45 degs, then thats easy and you shouldnt even need a protractor for that. antifreeze, dont think that was on your list as well.
even simpler,just checked autodata and you only need 180 and 90 degrees, so you should be able to do that by eye.

Thanks for that, the final twist is only 180 degrees.

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Originally Posted by phil miller

i can always let you borrow it for a week or so, if you cover the postage

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Wow that is very generous of you.

What I intend to do, is strip it down and put everything back together again, not run the car of course. Bit of a dummy run. Nothing to lose there.

I don't mind spending the 120 - 150 IF I do it right.

So that will be the first port of call before I buy anything, give me a better idea of the damage as well.

It does seem annoying to fork out a lot of money for one job. The compression loan would be extremely helpful.

It's the valves that might scupper the job though. I'm assuming it's that price for one and not a set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minny

Wow that is very generous of you.

What I intend to do, is strip it down and put everything back together again, not run the car of course. Bit of a dummy run. Nothing to lose there.

I don't mind spending the 120 - 150 IF I do it right.

So that will be the first port of call before I buy anything, give me a better idea of the damage as well.

It does seem annoying to fork out a lot of money for one job. The compression loan would be extremely helpful.

It's the valves that might scupper the job though. I'm assuming it's that price for one and not a set.

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your right the price is per valve mate

Hello

The torque wrench came today and it is set in the same manner has this one:

http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/cummin...ch-setting.jpg

It has no instructions, but I amuse the one in the picture above is set at 30 with the 0 being on the bottom of the zig zag line coming from the 30.

This is my problem on the increments the 0 on the bottom dial never lines up with the bottom zig zag line, it is either above or below, nor aligns with the top either.

Does this mean it's basically useless, or do i just adjust accordingly. Or is there some way of calibrating these things.

It has Newtons and M. KGS

the Newtons incrimented at 28,42,,56,70,85....210.

So, if I line up the bottom dial with the bottom line coming from the 28 it is 8 and not 0, presumably that would be a newton force of 36N. At that I would have to screw down 8 times to get to 28 which of course would mean the bottom dial is way below the 28 mark.

Thanks.

my mac torque wrench is the same

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...b/302a3654.jpg

so if i wanted 80 nm i turn it untill the zero on the handle lines up with the lowest part of the line leading from 80 (hope that makes sence?

i also found my old angle gauge today, if you wanna borrow it i dont mind leading it to you

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...b/735a845f.jpg

i dont use it anymore cos i have a snap on tech wrench, digital, torque and angle wrench :approve:

Right, Phil, so it doesn't have to line up exactly on the lower horizontal zig zag line bit (if that makes sense) as long as the 0 is lined up with the central vertical lline it will be 80, even if it's a ml or two above.

Then if you want 81, the next 1 has to line up.

That's a relief, I shudder to think what the postage would be on this wrench!!

Thanks again and thank you for your offer.

Click of the elbo does fine ! Waste of time and money with all that. Tight is tight. Over 15 years of daily engine rebuilds without any problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bangor Lad

Click of the elbo does fine ! Waste of time and money with all that. Tight is tight. Over 15 years of daily engine rebuilds without any problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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so you dont use a torque wrench or angle gauge for anything?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bangor Lad

Click of the elbo does fine ! Waste of time and money with all that. Tight is tight. Over 15 years of daily engine rebuilds without any problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The only other thing I did as big as this was replacing an head gasket on a ford fiesta mark one. I tightened down the bolts to what I thought was extremely tight. Neighbour was a mechanic so i asked if he could check the torque, they where no way near tight enough.

After snapping two Tengtools T55 bits I concluded that the head bolts on the Peugeot XUD9TE engine could not physically be torqued to the required specification.

That head replacement was unsucessful; I presumed replacement head was warped and changed the engine in the end.

That's grim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phil miller

so you dont use a torque wrench or angle gauge for anything?

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Yes for alot of things but when it comes to head bolts, no and before you say anything, i have done well over the amount of an average mechanic as people tend to send their customers to me as i quite enjoy doing them and have never had ANY problems or come backs. "Tight Is Tight" and by using hand tools every day you should really know the feel of a tightened bolt.

Sorry, I have to correct myself. On a rover engine, i would ALWAYS torque the new bolts to give them darn crap engines the best chance they have !!!! :-)


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I turned the engine over with the crankshaft pulley. There wasn't a sound, it turned smoothly, I could feel my wrench getting stiffer then loser with no problems. I did this several times.

I would have expected either some form of resistance or sound if the valves where bent.

Am I lucky or doesn't it matter? that is, the engine turning fine by hand is not an indication of NO damage.

If I put the timing belt on to try and turned the engine what should happen if there was valve or some other damage? Misfires, cloncking noise, engine jamming.

Thanks

If it's absolutely bob on I'll eat my hat; but it's worth trying. Worse case scenario is that it'll drop a valve into a cylinder which would probably damage some of the bottom end aswell; but I'd plan for a total engine replacement rather than fixing the old one anyway if this one doesn't work out, so don't think there's a lot to lose in trying.

I'd disconnect the stop solenoid and turn it over on the starter for 30sec or so and see how she is before properly firing her up though.

OK so turning it over by hand and hearing nothing, means nothing.

So if if the engine fires and turns over as it did, no problem?

OK Thanks.

I'd rebuild the head or change the engine before setting off to Moscow in it, otherwise every successful start is a bonus for a 16+ year old car!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minny

I turned the engine over with the crankshaft pulley. There wasn't a sound, it turned smoothly, I could feel my wrench getting stiffer then loser with no problems. I did this several times.


Thanks

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If this is only the crank turning with no timing bekt on you have 100% bent or broken valves !! You would want it to hit solid ! If your turning your crank a full cycle and its not hitting a valve then somethings wrong as at least some valves will be in the open position as each of your 4 pistons goes fully up. Its a no brainer really !!!

Don't know about a no brainer, your talking to some one who's only ever changed the oil and filter!! Pretty much kill or cure situation here.

But at least I know now.

In principle it looks straight forward enough to do (with right tools and parts). Getting it all timied up and in synch looks the most tricky to me. Doesn't help there being no manual for this car.

Seem to be something where one jobs leading to another.

Just to be clear; did you turn the crankshaft pulley on its own with the timing belt disconnected or the whole lot together?

Being able to turn the crankshaft through complete revolutions on its own with nothing else being turned would indicate that the valves have pretty much been squashed flat.

Turning the whole lot with the belt on should have 4 positive cyclinder compressions per complete revolution (i.e. when the same tooth on the cambelt belt reaches the same place as when you started). It should take a good strong arm action to pull through each compression (unless injectors or glowplugs are removed).

Bent valves will upset one or more of the compressions, so it's worth checking with glowplugs and injectors in place.

A minor hiss on one or more of the compressions can be pretty normal on a high mileage engine; it indicates either worn valve stem seals that aren't the end of the world or the head gasket being on it's way which may be.

Right, the only belt that was off was the timing belt, the other two below where on, one I believe is the V belt, not sure what the other is called, but you will.

The only belt not on was the timing.

When turning it there was a point when turning when it was more resistance in the wrench (which I assumed to be compression point), then it went easy for a bit, then resistance again, this was at proper regular intervals.. But, it was pretty much easy to turn with plugs and injectors in.

So I'm thinking squashed valves, which is no surprise really.

But, no harm in being optimistic!

Definitly squashed valves friend. Remove the head, take your time and even take pictures if your not sure about something. Take the head off and see whats happened.

Well, I have nothing to lose and quite a bit to learn!

Sorry if I sound patronising, but to fully describe:

The timing belt synchronises the camshaft (which opens the valves); with the crankshaft (which moves the pistons up and down).

Most car engines (probably 100% of diesels) are inteference engines; which means the highest physical place that the piston reaches is higher than the lowest place that the valves reach; so if the timing belt fails during operation they will collide, usually destructively.

Because of this, it should not normally be possible to turn the camshaft through a full revolution independantly from the crankshaft without a piston fouling on a valve (you'll hear a metal ping and not be able to turn the camshaft further) - unless the valves have been damaged (compressed) to the point that they are no longer intefering with the pistons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bangor Lad

If this is only the crank turning with no timing belt on you have 100% bent or broken valves !! You would want it to hit solid ! If your turning your crank a full cycle and its not hitting a valve then somethings wrong as at least some valves will be in the open position as each of your 4 pistons goes fully up. Its a no brainer really !!!

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Yup

Yet more questions,which I must apologise for and thank you for being so helpful thus far.

There are a few jobs on cars I'm wary of tackling for safety reasons, one is the fuel system. Now it looks like you have to remove the fuel pipe assembly. But in everything I have it is not quiet clear how you handle the fuel, other than be careful it's under high pressure and it can squirt out and kill you dead.

I assume you don't have to remove the whole fuel injection pump. Is it a matter of clamping the two fuel feeds that lead to the fuel injector and just have some spillage when unbolting the pipes? It does mention the pressure inside this pump is a particular problem on post October aaz engines, I'm assuming taking off the pipes will affect this.


Can I put a socket on the centre bolt of the fuel injection pulley to line up the locking holes? if so I assume this is best done before the pipes are taken off, it does seem very difficult to turn.


Also is it OK just to unbolt the manifold away from the cylinder head before taking it out, or take out the cylinder head with manifold then separating.


Thanks.

As far as I'm aware (to devoid my comment of responsibility; if you've heard otherwise don't assume that I'm correct!) the injector spray is only dangerous if it comes from an injector. From a disconnected injector pipe or union it will just dribble out even if the pump is being turned by the engine.

As for the injector pump and manifolds; remove them if they will make access easier. The pump/manifold-cylinder head bolts, where fitted, won't be particularly tight even if the parts have to be seperated later. Bear in mind new manifold gaskets will probably be required on disturbal.

You can turn the injector pump by the sprocket nut. Just check that the sprocket doesn't need to be removed if you want to remove the injector pump (it does on the 1Z, it didn't on my old 306's XUD9TE).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobster

As far as I'm aware (to devoid my comment of responsibility; if you've heard otherwise don't assume that I'm correct!) the injector spray is only dangerous if it comes from an injector. From a disconnected injector pipe or union it will just dribble out even if the pump is being turned by the engine.

As for the injector pump and manifolds; remove them if they will make access easier. The pump/manifold-cylinder head bolts, where fitted, won't be particularly tight even if the parts have to be seperated later. Bear in mind new manifold gaskets will probably be required on disturbal.

You can turn the injector pump by the sprocket nut. Just check that the sprocket doesn't need to be removed if you want to remove the injector pump (it does on the 1Z, it didn't on my old 306's XUD9TE).

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This is correct. Just get tore into it ! Posting aint gonna get it done ! How long have you been thinking this one over now ????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bangor Lad

This is correct. Just get tore into it ! Posting aint gonna get it done ! How long have you been thinking this one over now ????

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Quite a long time my friend. I like to do my homework first, see if it's financially viable out of my league etc.

The super caution comes from when I changed and oil filter and ruined an engine :approve:

But the tearing is iminnant, just some last make sures. :beerchug:

Don't want to be spending up to 200 quid just to find I can't get the timing marks back or screw up the fuel system. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minny

Quite a long time my friend. I like to do my homework first, see if it's financially viable out of my league etc.

The super caution comes from when I changed and oil filter and ruined an engine :approve:

But the tearing is iminnant, just some last make sures. :beerchug:

Don't want to be spending up to 200 quid just to find I can't get the timing marks back or screw up the fuel system. :D

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Have you started the job even ?