Vulcan XH558

I think the reason we make these mistakes is that this country especially is one in which the accountant and the bottom line are sacresanct.
You can earn far more totting up some nameless companies accounts than you ever can doing something worthwhile.
These individuals know $%^&er all about anything except the cost and couldn't give a damn about engineering excellence, safety, spares , availability and are quite happy to let some tin pot bone ***** company subcontract out work to a low skilled low cost facility somewhere for a cheap job.
Are they bothered about our soldiers sailors or airmen who have to fly and risk their lives in these things?... I think not!
Gazza57:zx11:

Any country that can't produce enough food to feed it's own population and hasn't got the ability to produce materials for it's own defence is living in cloud cuckoo land. What happens if we as a nation have to defend ourselves.

Part of the problem is the media, they harass whichever government is in power over spending too much and then harass them if they make an error, what is lacking is a common sense approach, not hanging someone out to dry when a mistake is made and also some way of procuring that does not revolve around a five year re-election schedule. Maybe removing politics from the equation would help, making it a civil service non political responsibility, not one controlled by elected officials.

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Originally Posted by martin1810

Any country that can't produce enough food to feed it's own population and hasn't got the ability to produce materials for it's own defence is living in cloud cuckoo land. What happens if we as a nation have to defend ourselves.

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We haven’t been self sufficient food wise since Elizabethan times, we have long imported to survive but we also exported, today all we are interested in is keeping minority groups happy with an open door policy.

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Originally Posted by Crasher

Part of the problem is the media, they harass whichever government is in power over spending too much and then harass them if they make an error, what is lacking is a common sense approach, not hanging someone out to dry when a mistake is made and also some way of procuring that does not revolve around a five year re-election schedule. Maybe removing politics from the equation would help, making it a civil service non political responsibility, not one controlled by elected officials.

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Remember Spitting Image & their protrayal of the press as pigs? That was spot on.

I get where you're coming from, but I find the prospect of the government not being fully in control of the military a bit worrying. Mind you, the thought of a lot of the 'honourable' members of parliament having any form of power is also a worry! A lot of 'em have hardly inspired confidence over the last year or so.
Bringing manslaughter charges if it could be proven that lack of/crap equipment has contributed to the death of service personnel might also help sharpen the sensibilities of the powers that be.

Sorry Chaps, But your heads are right up your exhausts, wether you admit or not is not my prob!

Unless you are a complete knob? you would not pay more for the same item just because it was made in Britain (why because it probably was not made in britain anyway)

Dunk

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Originally Posted by Bratty

Sorry Chaps, But your heads are right up your exhausts, wether you admit or not is not my prob!

Unless you are a complete knob? you would not pay more for the same item just because it was made in Britain (why because it probably was not made in britain anyway)

Dunk

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Bratty,
You need to look at the whole cost complete from purchase through service life to the scrapheap.
If you buy the cut price special, nice and cheap, you think you're getting a bargain, trust me you aren't.
A chap I know used to buy cheap monkey metal socket sets from china at a £1 a box, sold them for £12.99 in one of these budget christmas gift shops that spring up every year, made a fortune, knew they were rubbish didn't give a toss, that's business I have no problem with that.
On first use they are found to be what they are, cheap rubbish and into the bin they go. You pays your money you takes yer chance.
Joe public won't buy quality, he always buys cheap crap because he thinks he's getting a bargain bless him, like taking candy from a baby, easy.
People never ever learn you never repeat never get anything for nothing if it seems to good to be true it is, nobody wants to give you something cheaper out of the goodness of their heart, can't you see that?
Monkey metal sockets sets are one thing, proper defence procurement with spares and service support for the armed forces of our country are quite another, anyway experience shows that the cheap option is very often the most expensive in the long run.

Examples Nimrods, Chinooks, ATC Computer, Armoured Personnel Carriers all ran significantly over budget due to the cheap and cheerful option which in the end wasn't cheerful and certainly wasn't cheap, all could have been purchased for significantly less than they utimately ended up costing due to the government trying to squeeze a projects cost down.
There are many personnel maimed or dead from IED's due to earlier cost cutting in the design of APC's, thankfully eventually now being addressed.
For what it's worth I am quite happy to pay through taxes for the proper defence and equipping of the armed forces of this country and the safety of such personnel to whom we owe a duty.
If that in your opinion makes me " a complete knob" as you so eloquently put it, then I am guilty as charged.
Gazza57:D

Ok, Complete Knob was way over the mark:Blush:, lets call it even and drop complete;);).

Joking aside the Defence Procurement Contracts that are awarded to our Armed Forces are Full of Good Intentions from the beginning.
The Government tries to protect the intrests of both the Service Personnel and at the same time the intrests of the Tax-Payers (who quite a few are Service Personnel!). This has to be a conflict of interest but I understand the Dilema!! Throwing money away is not going to win fans on both sides.
What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the way the deals are handled. A lot of contracts are MANAGED!!?!! by Military Officers who quite frankly do not understand anything at all about bussiness managed, hence make bizarre decisions Mid-contract and if the make a mess of it then they are promoted and moved on and the next sacrificial lamb is brought in and starts the learning curve all over again.
Westland Apache, a good example in my book:confused:.
Am I a knob:confused:, without doubt but as I always say at least a knob is useful;).

Dunk

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Originally Posted by Bratty

Unless you are a complete knob? you would not pay more for the same item just because it was made in Britain

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God I must be a knob then because I would and do…Mind you, I knew I was a knob anyway, no change there! :D

I agree that major defence items should be bought from home suppliers, however there are times when buying from another country makes sense.

The MOD are currently in need of a medium work horse helecopter and I believe Westland and some Italian company are designing some new version of the lynx which won't be ready for many years and will no doubt come in way over budget and have many technical faults until it comes on line, and look at the current lynx, not very good in hot sandy conditions!

There is a ready proven tough work horse which could be brought into service much quicker in the form of the black hawk, and lets face it the guys in Afgan need that aircraft now, not many years down the line!