Religion / Spirituality

[elvismiggell]

Inspired by a reference in the Dear Elvis thread.

What's your take on the universe, are you a Christian, Muslim or Jew or any other?

What's your beef with organised religion?

Do agnostics wind you up?

Do you think we should have a 'national' religion?

Can creationism and evolution co-exist?



I want this to be an open and frank discussion. Please don't flame or intentionally wind up, but at the same time please respect the fact that others may not share your views on what is a deeply personal choice. Mods feel free to close or warn us if it looks like we're getting out of hand.

[Bratty]

I have found that in the interest of "Harmony" when interacting with people that certain topics should be avoided!!?!! Religion, Politics and Football.

Perhaps this thread WILL? Answer the age-old question? WHY are we still having Religious wars/conflicts in 2010?? When religion should be about peace and self-improvement!

I will break my own personal rule and just comment "IT IS A CROCK OF POO-POO!!". Its about power and corruption at a level that is monumental!

Dunk

[Bratty]

WILL I GO TO HELL!!?!! AGAIN.:confused:

Dunk

[elvismiggell]

Not in my eyes mate.



So here's my story. I'm one of five children, brought up in a solid Anglican middle class family. Up until the age of 14 or so I went to Church every Sunday and bought into it heart and soul.

Over the next five or so years, I became gradually disillusioned with organised Church. In the sixth form I started going to a Baptist church, mainly because a girl that came to our sixth form went there.

I gradually came to realise that for a lot of people from my sort of background (without trying to be TOO stereotypical!) Church was primarily a socialising activity and had little or nothing to do with religion. Sure we all talked and talked about God and helping people and studied the Bible, but most of us didn't do anything about it.

As it goes I believe in the existance of a God-like being, a benevolent power beyond our comprehension. I believe Jesus of Nazareth existed, and quite possibly died and was resurrected.

However I don't believe that this demands I should give up half my sunday to socialise.

I believe that it's important to be as decent as person as I can. Mainly because that's what feels right to me, but also I like to think of it as my little bargain with God. He and I know he exists, and I know I try to be a decent person and keep a clean sould as it were.

I'm tolerant of other beliefs as long as they're not thrust on me, in the same way that my fiancee is a vegetarian but will cook meat for me because she respects my choice to eat meat. I would in fact respect her right to refuse.

I don't mind if someone wants to talk to me about their beliefs, I'm all for sharing, just don't try and ram it down my throat.

I believe that creationism and evolution fit hand in hand if you don't take literal interpretation out of Genesis and apply a little common sense.

Feel free to weigh in folks. :)

[Y90USF]

I disagree with you Bigcol.

i am a muslim with fairly strong views and quite into religion as it has helped me through some tough times.

and the swivel eyed bearded nutters i believe have nothing to do with any religion as in no religion does it say fight and kill unjustly.

yes there is such thing as holy war in the bible as well as the quran qhich is to fight to save your religion but nowhere does it say blow yourself up like a coward to kill innocent people.

a small minority make religion hard for the large population who practice.

[Bratty]

Exactly! Religion has no control!! Wether it is islam or christian . The Fact is you are at Fricking WAR !! are you so stupid that you do not realise why?? You have the same god, you are total and complete idiots ??

Dunk (perhaps a bit dramatic! But I have picked up your fricking shizer !!)

Can you not learn??

Dunk

[Y90USF]

Dunk what is the main reason of the WAR????

[Bratty]

Y90SUF Exactly My point! What War?? I have worked as a soldier for 24 years, luckily i AM NOW ALMOST NORMAL. But I can only say that what is happening now has nothing to do with international terrorrism, in fact it has the after affect1!! of sucking the European community to its knees.

Dunk

[Y90USF]

i definately agree with you, but at the end off the day if religion has helped you in life you go with it...if it hasn't you don't.

picked a controversial topic huever started it.......

[Bratty]

Y90USF I would welcome you as a friend. I am totally apathethic!

GOOD LUCK!

Dunk

[Y90USF]

Dunk brother was in the british army and loved it and never came back from it so i have alot of respect for people who have been or are in the army.

but i respect everyones views as i would want everybody to respect mine.

PEACE OUT :D

[Bratty]

Respect.

Dunk

[elvismiggell]

No personal dis-respect meant to you or your religion or any other for that matter, it is just me voicing a strong agnostic view.

Hi Col, cheers for your two cents, interested by your use of the word agnostic. Not to infer too much from one word, but I take it you believe there's something out there then rather than nothing at all?

Just not worth fighting over (with which I whole-heartedly agree!)

[Y90USF]

Big col I'm sorry if you gt the impression I'm putting smeone elses beliefs lower down because I'm not, at the end of the day tht was my opinion and everyone is entitled to ther own

[elvismiggell]

Yeah I do find it interesting how some people find that they can't reconcile science and religion.

Simplisticly I find religion accounts for what science can't explain.

I accept that as science advances there will be less and less that religion (perhaps spirituality is a better word?) will need to explain, but that's not to say it doesn't have a place.

For example it's (I think) impossible to prove the theories behind Chi and energy, but I do believe there's at least something to it.

Science doesn't yet have a viable explanation for how the placebo effect can cure people, but do we really need to understand?

[Eshrules]

<rubs hands>

I love religious discussions.

let's set out my own belief first.

I don't like to 'brand' myself, so whilst I would generally be said to hold agnostic values, I embrace a few different aspects of religions.

the 10 commandments (whilst I question their origin and to that matter - the existence of the bible entirely) they are morally and socially sound, much like the 5 pilllars of islam and as such, I tend to live my life bound by a similar set of rules.

The hindu belief in Karma is something else I draw faith from, I'm a great believer in doing unto others as you would unto yourself and that (in essence) what goes around, comes around. Karma is, of course, a much more complex ideology than that!

I'm a pretty open minded guy when it comes to religion and I think I have my upbringing and education to thank for that. Whilst it angers me that we get a handful of religious extremists which, in turn, bring that religion into disrepute (as has been touched on in this thread), I respect peoples right to their beliefs.

I remember a General Studies discussion I led at college, the title of which was "Religion - the root of all evil". It was rather humorous listening to the racism some people came out with.


Edit - the science vs religion discussion makes me giggle, on one hand we've got the arrogance of religion "this is how earth was born" and on the other, science, just as arrogant, arguing their side. Truth is, science in itself is not entirely factual and you have to allow a certain degree of faith and trust in that!

[Issac Hunt]

Without religion the world would be a much better place IMO. Its a load of rubbish. If there really was any sort of a God then he wouldn't let the truly awful things happen. Famine, floods etc etc.

Too many folk have been brainwashed since the dawn of the time. There is no afterlife, when your dead, your dead. The end.

Fighting over 'beliefs' is just insane.

[zollaf]

on the subject of where we come from, who made the planet etc.., i have come to a final decision. we dont know, we never will, it doesnt matter so stop worrying about it. im not religious at all, but do live my life as esh said. if people want to be religious then thats up to them, but it has been responsible for nearly every war, so is in fact the biggest health risk. far worse then smoking.

[Krazy]

I'm not religious in any way.. I'm christian, but don't go to church or anything.

I find it amusing sometimes how people are with their religions, someone at my mum's work is really weird, he follows it as much as he can but contradicts himself alot and refuses to work 'underneath' a woman as management.

[elvismiggell]

I'm not religious in any way.. I'm christian, but don't go to church or anything.


I'm confused by this statement... if you're not religious in any way, why do you consider yourself a Christian?

Is this a 'defined by heritage' thing? :)

[zollaf]

i was always told to say i was church of england. i know better now and tell those that ask that im a devout atheist.

[Krazy]

I was christened C of E etc.. but don't do anything about it. won't go to church.

And yes, is a heritage thingy :)

[elvismiggell]

Can't speak for other books, but the men that wrote the Bible believed that God was writing through them.

I understand that's a generally accepted point of Christianity.




What I could never understand was that if that's the case, why did men STOP writing? Why has the Church never allowed any more entries into the Bible? Not to get all conspiracy theorist, but I do find that one pretty interesting.

[gman3.0]

Im a none believer i have no interest in religion what so ever, but that doesnt mean i disrespect people that do !
Everyone is different and have other views, but religion is one of the biggest causes of war and conflict in the world with people acting in the name of their god.
I dont see how one religion can be better or worse than an other, or why people are killed or kill because of it.
At the end of it we all have one thing in common, we are human beings and we all have the right to life !

[Issac Hunt]

What I could never understand was that if that's the case, why did men STOP writing? Why has the Church never allowed any more entries into the Bible? Not to get all conspiracy theorist, but I do find that one pretty interesting.

Because it's complete fiction? The parting of the sea, feeding of the 5000, returning from the dead etc etc. What a load of old bobbins!

[zollaf]

written by a bloke that had consumed far too many magic mushrooms.

[JSH]

My religion is to treat everyone as you expect to be treated. Everything else ( in my book !) is evil brain washing, from way back when stories made up the frighten the crap out of people in order to make them toe the line

[SammoVWT]

I follow the religion of octane rating, aka ROR :approve:

[SpinneyA6]

Good men do good things.

Bad men do bad things.

But for good men to do bad things requires religion!

[SpinneyA6]

I saw the Pope on telly last week driving round in his 'Pope Mobie'. Nothing says, "I've the utter most faith in my God" quite like 6" of bullet proof glass!

[fulcrum111]

There was an attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedicts predecessor in 1981. He was shot and critically injured but recovered and then visited the gunman 2 years later in prison and forgave him. There was a second attempt on his life in 1982 when a guy tried to stab him with a bayonet but was stopped by guards. There was also a third planned assassination in 1995 but it was discovered by police and stopped. Pope Benedict has been physically attacked a number of times including during Christmas Mass in Dec 2009. With the history on recent attacks, the Pope would be very foolish not to use the Pope mobile with its bulletproof glass. Would any of us do any different if someone was gunning for us?

I'm a Catholic and I do believe in God and the faith that has been handed down to me from Jesus Christ and the Apostles. At its core it is a faith of tolerence, love, peace and forgiveness. Saying that, I'm the first to admit that terrible things have been done and continue to be done in the name of faith and by those who claim to serve the faith (Christian, Islam and many others). My hope is that when I die I will be judged by God to have lived a good life by how I treated others (of my faith, of other faiths and those who have no belief in God) with dignity and respect. I respect everyones right to believe / not to believe in whatever they choose. I believe that it is not up to us to judge who is right and who is wrong when it comes to belief, God alone will judge us, and if we have lived well, I don't think God will have any problems with us.

I think this thread was a very good idea. Religion/spirituality its a topic that needs to be discussed more and more so that people can come to terms with the diversity of beliefs that are out there in the world and accept them without feeling threatened by them. Of course it goes without saying that I am happy to have killers who say they act in the name of their God\beliefs locked up and the keys thrown away!

Thank you to all who have responded to this thread. I hope I haven't bored you with my views! :D

Mark.

[Bratty]

Hi Mark, just like to say that I respect anyones right to their religion, and you have stated your side very eliquently.

For me I will be sceptical till I repent at the last minute (if I have the chance!).

I think that religion is on one side Very helpful (it supports and assists people mentally and physically!) but is also VERY!! damaging by forcing people to do things that harm themselves, or making them make decisions which are not in the interests of themselves or what they might create.

Dunk

[MalcQV]

Going off what SpinneyA6 is suggesting, if I had the level of faith the Pope has then I would not be worried about bullet proof glass.

I do have some faith but don't mind admitting I would have the bullet proof glasshttp://www.windowsguide.org/forum/images/smilies/hmmm.gif :p

[Bratty]

Try taking a bus trip in Sri Lanka, they beleive that whatever happens is fate, so they drive like complete nutters but you can be consoled that every REALLY dangerous stretch of road has a shrine that you can give an offering too! Thing is it would put confused.com out of business;).

Dunk

[SpinneyA6]

I believe that religion is based on a series of a priori assumptions and pseudo-intellectual froth selectively accepted to surround and support the core belief which, if fallacious, will mean that by inference, all of the supporting material will be likewise fallacious and that given, the essentially heuristic basis of almost all belief wherein the way in which the mind works backward from conclusion to argument, rendering the material of that argument inaccessible to scrutiny by the subject, though obvious to the onlooker, one creates a paradox in which nobody can objectively analyse their own conclusions.

[Sam]

Strange, this chap (http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showpost.php?p=132565&postcount=9) agrees with you, word for word.

[SpinneyA6]

I know, I'm a Podiatrist ;-)

I contribute to the Arena on a regular basis

[Dudey Head]

I started the exact same thread under a different name a while ago:

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=59627

My view's clearly stated there. A much more eloquent version of Big Col's 'both barrels' (that's the Big Col we know & love though! ;)).
I've been reading a book of recent called 'How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World'. ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2004/oct/16/society ) It basically argues (quite convincingly!) that the end of the 20th & beginning of the 21st centuries are seeing the end of the 'Age of Enlightenment' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment I posted this link in the thread about ghosts as well). Another compelling read that I've yet to finish is 'The God Delusion' ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/sep/23/richarddawkins )
We are slowly turning away from logic & reason and undermining science and proven fact and I find it quite scary.
Each to their own, but it's pretty much always the religious who can't agree to disagree.

[Eshrules]

I know, I'm a Podiatrist ;-)

I contribute to the Arena on a regular basis

VW's subtlety was clearly missed...

the link he gave you, is the original poster of the content you ripped off.

[elvismiggell]

We are slowly turning away from logic & reason and undermining science and proven fact and I find it quite scary.

I can't say as I've been particuarly aware of this, can you give some examples?

[PFJones]

I can't say as I've been particuarly aware of this, can you give some examples?

His quote is also unoriginal Look up 'Richard Dawkins - The edge of Reason' he explains it much better

Scott
P.F.Jones Support Team(in no way affliated with this post)

[SpinneyA6]

VW's subtlety was clearly missed...

Not at all, I believe you may have missed mine when I thanked him for his post :p

I've known Robert for several years, we work together. The aforementioned quote was penned during a lunch break and was a collaboration between Robert and myself, although I will admit to him having the greater input.

[Dudey Head]

I can't say as I've been particuarly aware of this, can you give some examples?

Creationism is one glaringly obvious example & the campaign to ban the teaching of evolution in schools. The spread of faith schools is another. How is education supposed to objective, un-biased and scientifically sound if it is coming a religious perspective? Religion is belief, not fact, & you can't teach a belief, it's subjective & individual. The general spread of things like faith healers, astrology, crystals having special powers instead of just being lumps of mineral which is what they acually are. Feng shui is another. These are just examples that spring to mind whilst I'm tapping this out on my lunch break. People actually base their lives around this nonesense & these days you are seen as a narrow minded cynic if you point out it's all unprovable & highly unlikely!


His quote is also unoriginal Look up 'Richard Dawkins - The edge of Reason' he explains it much better

Scott
P.F.Jones Support Team(in no way affliated with this post)

Which quote?

[Bratty]

I reckon if you could clear the slate and do a hard delete of all mankinds religious beliefs we still would not be happy, its in our nature! We are not programed in our genes to be submissive, of course there are exceptions but on the whole we are just STUPID!!

If you could take all the best bits (a bit like esperanto) and come up with the common denominater religion then you could? appease the masses (but I think that female circumscition would probably have to be left out!)

Dunk

[Bratty]

starfleet;)

[Crasher]

How about the newest most Prius of all religions, the most holy and divine order of the worship of the great one religion; MMCC (Man Made Climate Change)…

[Dudey Head]

Yes master Col. If you're genuine, use the force to make your CBTD go extra double fast!

What about Barbarella universe? By George crikey blimey golly gee!

[Bratty]

When I was in the military it was common to put agnostic or atheist down as religion just to get out of having to go to Church Parade which meant getting up on a Sunday, it did not work though as they would still have to get up but stand outside the church until the service was finished. Also when it came to easter and christmas duties they would be nominated first as they are religious holidays.

What are the advantages of the Jedi religion?

I work in Germany and they take Church Tax of you at scource (its not a small amount either!!), I was not happy with that so made a fuss, now I do not pay it.

Dunk

[pon]

I will be doing the same again next year.;)

[pon]

Stuarts avatar is the Dark Lord of the Sith
So lets be a bit careful:p

[Bratty]

OK, digging up an old topic here!

I was having a discussion with my workmate about Hitler the other day (he is German, my workmate that is! and I am not sur but you might find ou that Adolf is Austrian). Anyway it got onto bad people and strange religious beliefs (normally a topic I steer clear off!).

Subject:- Sceintology!!!?!!! ***:confused:. Click on wikipedea and read about that for a totally nutty basis for religion.

Basically Billions of residents from another planet are tricked by a new tax anomaly to get into spaceships and are transported to Earth and placed around vocanoes that are detonated by Hydrogen Bombs.

Best quote is that a lot of prominent members is that they "distance themselves from the initial version:biglaugh::biglaugh:!" NO SHIITE

(I have an ALFA 147 and 156 sportwagen that I have been trying to shift for years "REMEMBER ALFA IS FOR LIFE!! LIKE CANCER!!?!! If I phone up Tom Cruise and tell him that I have Two Secret machines that if you drive them can remove ""THETANS!!?!!" from however is piloting them (and the passengers) that he will pay me millions (of Earth money obviously!;))

Dunk (and I thought I was mad!!!)

[Bratty]

DAMNATION!!!!:zx11::zx11::zx11::zx11::zx11:!!!!! `Gave him a ring on the intergalagtic Cell-Phone AND!!!!:zx11::zx11:Not even Tom Cruise is gullible enough to enter into the purchase of second hand Alfa Romeos`.

Dunk;)

[MalcQV]

I am, going to look at such vehicular tomorrow.. along with other heaps to replace the heap I currently own :p

[seanj0hn]

Star wars is actually a documentary :1zhelp:

[Embisix]

That man is a legend!!! :beerchug:

[phil miller]

ive just read this whole thread (im sure i will get banned for this) here goes
my thougths
i use to believe in god as a child , not anymore, this is why, if we were created by a god why are there so many different gods? as already said when your dead thats it game over
the pope, what agreat man he is, his religion, has always and STILL DOES ALLOW THESES ******* ******* TO PLAY WITH LITTLE BOYS, what the ****! how and why would anyone want to claim to be part of that!
islam, it may only be a small number poss 100,000 but they blow up planes, kill mums, dads and small childern, my older brother and his wife were about to get on that ******* bus in tavistock sqaure on the 7 july, my brother couldnt sleep for months because some ### #### ***** thought it was in the name of there god, they have zero respect for women and are killing are troops day in day out,

i know this will be deleted, thing is ask any male between 25 and 40 about this thoughts of islam/muslems and im sure most if not all will use the terms bombers rapists and rag heads, i have know time for there views the same as they wouldnt for mine, one other thing i think it is totally wrong they should be allowed to build a centre so close to ground zero, i wonder how they would feel if we opened a butchers next door with cuts of pork in the window, they would kick up ****,

this is just my views and i respect other peoples i hope mine are respected the same way

[paulthefox]

you hit the nail on the head with your comments have to agree 100per cent every body bends over backwards and for what :aargh4:

paul

[Bratty]

I am not religious at all! Even though being brought up as a child to believe in God! and Sunday school (brainwashing!! I still know the words to "There was a Green Hill Far away":confused:).

but the problem is Not Religion, its the FANATICAL interpretation of religion that is the prob (and perverts, and not just in the Catholic system!)

If humans could "live" and "let live" meanwhile respecting cultures then we would have perhaps the harmony that we strive for.

I have experiences where my faith in humanity is not going to be easily rebuilt, having been in situations where the true "DEPTH" that people will go to harm innocent people, WE ARE ALL ANIMALS (when the situation dictates!)


Dunk

[phil miller]

but the problem is Not Religion, its the FANATICAL interpretation of religion that is the prob (and perverts, and not just in the Catholic system!)

Dunk

maybe your right, all i know is on july 7 2005 it was muslims that almost killed my brother, brainwashed or not, something needs to change, ive got cousins in yorkshire and its like a different world up there, tell me if im wrong but if you go to a friends house would you put your dirty shoes on his carpet...NO even if you do it in your own home, my point is they have moved to are country they SHOULD RESPECT OUR WAY OF LIFE, if they dont like it then they should return to there home land, if i went to there home land id have to abide there way of life otherwise id have my head cut off, it works both ways, thing is they cant see that

like ive said this is my point of view, i respect others and i expect the same for mine, cos IIRC we still have freedom of speech in this country the muslims havent taken that from us........... not yet anyway

[Crasher]

If something does not happen in the next few years to reverse some of the changes that have taken place in this country over the last forty years then it could easily end up as English Civil War II or the election of a dangerously right wing radical government, neither of which are desirable prospects.

[Bratty]

Crasher you are not wrong! as far as the Far Right-Wing Government concept, you just have to keep an eye of whats happenning in Europe for the Early Warning Signs. Increased support for what a few years ago were considered "unsavoury"at best! politcal groups.

Why? Racism or Religion (or "Both"!?!) or is it in fact that normal people are not happy that there way of life is being Eroded by Factors that are becoming unpallatable and it is too easy to apportion blame on the easy targets.

Dunk

[Sam]

but the problem is Not Religion, its the FANATICAL interpretation of religion that is the prob (and perverts, and not just in the Catholic system!)

100% spot on - couldn't and probably wouldn't have said it better myself.

[phil miller]

i once saw a film called V for Vendetta if you havent seen it its set in the future where you are told what you can and cant say, what you can read its all about being controled, if things dont change then as crasher said thats where we are heading

[Sam]

Buy a book called 1984 written by George Orwell in 1949.

While V for Vendetta was a damned good film, the concept is old :)

[Crasher]

Is an un-declared war, we have a belligerent anti British army living amongst us.

[paulthefox]

time to pull the troops out from you now where:zx11:

[phil miller]

time to pull the troops out from you now where:zx11:

+1 on that, i dont think we have been fighting on a level playing ground from day 1, i think many mistakes were made over the last few years about what we are fighting against, if they are hell bent on terror attacks then we have to make sure we can defend are country

9/11 was a horribly thing but, and i said this at the time, what would happen if say the *** ***** decided to fly a plane in to a football stadium on a saturday afternoon, old trafford hold 80,000 people if a plane hit that not many would get out alive, we are not dealing with normal people, thay are brain washed, heads full of crap, im a strong beliver in this, if people dont like our way of life then they should **** off and live else where, what was the hook man called, anyway he preached hate about OUR COUNTRY yet he claimed ****in thousands in benefits, how the **** does that work, ****** with a capital W

[Bratty]

The problem is the Hook-handed one-eyed (literaly;)) trouser snake knew how to play the system and that same system failed to interperet that it was being Scammed :confused:(no doubt there are orginisations out there that advice these people How To Scam).

But the VERY VERY Sad :( thing is that these LOOP-HOLES are there to protect and assist the REAL "needy" like pensioners. And it really grips my poo-poo that loyal people who have payed into the system are being left to freeze, while passers-by who have NO REAL NEED!! are getting thousands to re-locate.

I think we might be drifting off thread topic!

Dunk

[phil miller]

its all to do with being PC, its a joke, if they want a third world type country they should **** off back to iraq, i mean the way they treat women, if thats what why want then get the **** out of England, my blood pressure is thro the roof

[paulthefox]

wait till crasher reads it:D

[Crasher]

What the ****, what is going on? I think my head is going to explode! Did you watch that article about how we are having Halal meat snuck into the food chain! Utterly appalling, makes my blood boil. Can you imagine if you moved to Pakistan and insisted that all meat was Kosher, you would be murdered-literally! We are too accommodating-it has to stop!

[Eshrules]

I have to make the point that being muslim does not necessarily dictate that you're a terrorist.

That said, we are far too PC sensitive.

The fact that the cameras were erected using anti-terrorist funding and done so 'covertly' and without consultation doesn't help matters, but regardless of that, the CCTV must be needed to have been put up in the first place.

Sadly, we're so scared of offending an apparently over sensitive community that we're prepared to sacrifice security measures to prevent complaints.

The cynic in me would suggest those who objected so strongly would only do so if they had something to hide.

[Bratty]

OK! I have suggested that this thread is a bit off topic! and I am finding it a little bit offensive (AND OFFENSIVE FOR OTHER FORUM MEMBERS). I have worked in areas of ethnic cleansing and it is devastating on your life to have to experience that amount of hate! Please if you are a responsible moderator move this to another section, ie adult as it is a little close to the mark.

Dunk

[Bratty]

It is not a muslim prob (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE **** HEADS), its not a christian problem (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE **** HEADS), its not a(EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE **** HEADS), a prespaterian problem.

:confused::confused::confused:finding the light

Dunk

[phil miller]

OK! I have suggested that this thread is a bit off topic! and I am finding it a little bit offensive (AND OFFENSIVE FOR OTHER FORUM MEMBERS). I have worked in areas of ethnic cleansing and it is devastating on your life to have to experience that amount of hate! Please if you are a responsible moderator move this to another section, ie adult as it is a little close to the mark.

Dunk

I think the comments do have revelence, we all know that muslims do carry out attacks on OUR country, id love to say its the scots or the french BUT IT ISNT it is MUSLIMS, yes there are good and bad in all walks life, but i dont see how anything is gonna change until we stand are ground

im not disagreeing, i dont think id be able to cope with what you have seen and had to go thro, but i think we can all agree that it is the muslim religion/there beliefs that make them carry out these attacks, so all in all it is to do with religion

[Bratty]

perhaps if you put "fanatic" in front of any religion you will find the same end result?

Dunk

[phil miller]

perhaps if you put "fanatic" in front of any religion you will find the same end result?

Dunk

maybe, the point im trying to make (albeit badly) is the muslim religion seems to have alot more fanatics than any of the others

[Bratty]

No! My experience tells me that certain areas of America are FLOODED with RELIGIOUS BOOLSHIT, almost the same fanatiscm as the MUSLIM world. Or am I mistaken?

Dunk

[Bratty]

Anyway "A" GOD BLESS cats *****:D.

Dunk

[phil miller]

Anyway "A" GOD BLESS cats *****:D.

Dunk

dont think i follow what you mean?

[Bratty]

It does not matter what you choose as a God or to worship (a cats *****, a doorknob, a six armed elephant or even more strange! an imaginary object?). That is that persons perogative. But what we are discussing more and more on this topic is the unacceptable behaviour of a segment of a minority ethnic/religious group. Yes, the common enemy of the moment is rooted in the Muslim Religion but I do not remember anyone asking for all Catholic Southern Irish people to be packed of home during the IRA bombing campaign "not so long ago!".

The medieval traditions that accompany certain religions ie. honour killings, stoning, making women walk behind a man, not letting women be the pope etc. are wrong. But it is MANY religions.

I am not PC, I just think that when you take time to study what is actually happening with this current terrorist threat, it is simply not just based on a religious problem.

Dunk

[Crasher]

I think we should probably stop this thread, as Bratty is right, it could offend.

[elvismiggell]

Must admit I had started to wonder if it was about time to let this one die...

Think we've all managed to express our opinions, so perhaps we ought to let sleeping dogs lie for now? :)

[Bratty]

This thread if it stays on track with the topic is fine, after all "Freedom of Speech" and all that, but the (inevitable!!) drift from the topic (Religion/Spirituality) to terrorism that is linked with a religion that is quite frankly being demonised because of a few "******* nutters" is not good. Also if the thread continues discussing terrorist stuff then "Perhaps" it might draw unwanted attention (It just takes one person to suggest a much better way of causing pain and misery) and that would be an invitation to the enemy (LOOSE TONGUES COSTS LIVES).

Could be perceived as dramatic but, Why stick a ****** stick in an open wound!

Dunk

[Bratty]

The real (conspiracy) fear is that the Generic Population of Europe (and indeed America) is going to be SWAMPED with Islamic voters which will overwhelm the system installing a medieval style shiara (do not know if i have spelt that right but who cares) government. Far from the truth? Just look at religious education in schools! (religion/spirituality!!?!!:confused:).

Dunk

[Sam]

Thread moved to Adult Banter.

[paulthefox]

I think the comments do have revelence, we all know that muslims do carry out attacks on OUR country, id love to say its the scots or the french BUT IT ISNT it is MUSLIMS, yes there are good and bad in all walks life, but i dont see how anything is gonna change until we stand are ground

im not disagreeing, i dont think id be able to cope with what you have seen and had to go thro, but i think we can all agree that it is the muslim religion/there beliefs that make them carry out these attacks, so all in all it is to do with religion

leave the jocks and frogs out of it enough said;)

paul:beerchug:

[Eshrules]

maybe your right, all i know is on july 7 2005 it was muslims that almost killed my brother, brainwashed or not, something needs to change, ive got cousins in yorkshire and its like a different world up there, tell me if im wrong but if you go to a friends house would you put your dirty shoes on his carpet...NO even if you do it in your own home, my point is they have moved to are country they SHOULD RESPECT OUR WAY OF LIFE, if they dont like it then they should return to there home land, if i went to there home land id have to abide there way of life otherwise id have my head cut off, it works both ways, thing is they cant see that

like ive said this is my point of view, i respect others and i expect the same for mine, cos IIRC we still have freedom of speech in this country the muslims havent taken that from us........... not yet anyway

I've refrained for so long - but I can't any more.

Phil, I don't know what your yorkshire/dirty shoes/carpet thing's about. But the terrorists that carried out those attacks were fanatics, following a distorted interpretation of what is, a sound religion followed by (millions?).

Do we hang out every Catholic to dry, based on the institutional abuse of children for decades, often committed by those in a position of power?

You can't incite hatred for a single religion, based on a (comparitively) few extremists' actions.

Whilst this is our country, it would be arrogant of us to expect anyone to follow our traditions. Laws, yes, traditions and ways of life, no. Why? Because that's what makes our society so diverse. I love the fact that we have a wide ranging and diverse society, but we need to learn to differentiate between terrorists, following a distorted view of a certain religion. And those who condemn the action of these extremists - the ones who hate the fact that their religion is being brough into disrepute.

[Sam]

I think the comments do have revelence, we all know that muslims do carry out attacks on OUR country, id love to say its the scots or the french BUT IT ISNT it is MUSLIMS, yes there are good and bad in all walks life, but i dont see how anything is gonna change until we stand are ground

Come on now, it isn't just Muslim extremists who attack our country. Before one even knew who the Taliban were (thanks to the Media no doubt) there were countless IRA / RIRA / etc attacks on "our" Country.

Hundreds of bombs have exploded throughout the country over the past 40 years. How many of those have been attributed to Muslims?

[Bratty]

Mmmmmh! I might do the fashionable thing tomorrow and become a Muslim, (after marrying a famous celeberity, and just before I book into the clinic for full Bottox and facelifting making me look like an Alien).

Dunk

[phil miller]

I've refrained for so long - but I can't any more.

Phil, I don't know what your yorkshire/dirty shoes/carpet thing's about. But the terrorists that carried out those attacks were fanatics, following a distorted interpretation of what is, a sound religion followed by (millions?).

Do we hang out every Catholic to dry, based on the institutional abuse of children for decades, often committed by those in a position of power?

You can't incite hatred for a single religion, based on a (comparitively) few extremists' actions.

Whilst this is our country, it would be arrogant of us to expect anyone to follow our traditions. Laws, yes, traditions and ways of life, no. Why? Because that's what makes our society so diverse. I love the fact that we have a wide ranging and diverse society, but we need to learn to differentiate between terrorists, following a distorted view of a certain religion. And those who condemn the action of these extremists - the ones who hate the fact that their religion is being brough into disrepute.


Come on now, it isn't just Muslim extremists who attack our country. Before one even knew who the Taliban were (thanks to the Media no doubt) there were countless IRA / RIRA / etc attacks on "our" Country.

Hundreds of bombs have exploded throughout the country over the past 40 years. How many of those have been attributed to Muslims?


3 and a half days since my posts and now the mods have a dig, lads come on, a simple pm would have done, or if you consider my opinion to be out of place
or racist then it should have been a PM 3 days ago, something that is happening ever more in this country is the fact we are a push over, i dont have a problem with people coming here, having SOME form of benefit, but i draw the line when they preach HATE about this country, anyone who supports what they say shouldnt be allowed in this country end of, and if you think im a racist then thats fine i what this country to stay as is, i dont want to be a minority in the country i was born into,

i must admit to feeling a little let down by one or two on here, like a said a simple PM wouldnt have hurt, and lets face it im sure after the way this thread had been going every mod was keeping an eye on what PHIL was gonna say next!!

[Eshrules]

I'm not sure why you've chosen to make it a mod issue - it's a well known fact (?) that Sam and I are friends - I made my comments as a poster/member, not as a moderator.

I'm not about to start censoring people's voice or opinion - the minute we start doing that, I'll cease to be a moderator.

I felt my comments were informed and left room for the discussion to continue, I apologise if you feel as though you're being attacked - that certainly wasn't my intention.

If there's one thing I'm proud of (given my relative youth) it's being open minded and accepting of other peoples views.

Col - thank you for the links, I'll have a look at those at home (not sure how work would view certain extremist sites?).

I too, have discussed this subject at great length with a few of my muslim friends and they can appreciate the hatred it incites towards their religion - they have an unbelievably hard time and I can empathise.

[phil miller]

I felt my comments were informed and left room for the discussion to continue, I apologise if you feel as though you're being attacked - that certainly wasn't my intention.
.

I dont feel i have been attacked at all, the way in which your comments were worded made it look as though 3 days after i had posted and others had added to it, i was in the firing line, and as i stated if there was a problem with (and indeed any of) my posts then a PM would have been a better way rather than on the open forum, the way you and sam picked bits of my post one after another made it look like the MODS were having a dig, hence my reply

everyone has there own views on this and given the amount of members at no time will everyone agree, i stand by my views on this and everyone has read my reason and will know its a little deeper than reading it in the paper

[Sam]

3 and a half days since my posts and now the mods have a dig, lads come on, a simple pm would have done, or if you consider my opinion to be out of place
or racist then it should have been a PM 3 days ago, something that is happening ever more in this country is the fact we are a push over, i dont have a problem with people coming here, having SOME form of benefit, but i draw the line when they preach HATE about this country, anyone who supports what they say shouldnt be allowed in this country end of, and if you think im a racist then thats fine i what this country to stay as is, i dont want to be a minority in the country i was born into,

i must admit to feeling a little let down by one or two on here, like a said a simple PM wouldnt have hurt, and lets face it im sure after the way this thread had been going every mod was keeping an eye on what PHIL was gonna say next!!

I posted in this thread early on with my personal views, then left it for a while. I carried on reading and only returned to post when requests were made to have it moved to the Adult Banter section.

Scroll back through the thread and you'll see your post which you made at 10:59pm on a Friday night was quoted by Paul yesterday at 3pm. I don't use the forum at the weekends so you'll just have to forgive me for not quoting and replying to your post sooner.

I saw no reason to send you a PM because what I had to say was, in my opinion perfectly relevant to the thread and wasn't out of line, inflammatory or derogatory in any way. I don't recall labelling you a racist or declaring you were a push over either.

You said (in the post I quoted) you thought the comments had relevance. I think my comments have relevance. If you feel hurt or "let down by one or two" that I quoted your post and replied to you, the person who made the comments, then the issue isn't with me, its with you.

I have no issue with people expressing their feelings (within the rules of the forum), if you want to carry on debating Religion and Spirituality, feel free.

As for keeping an eye on you, we keep an eye on everyone, that's what Stuart has asked us to do to keep the place running smoothly.

[paulthefox]

watch out the spooks are about:D bit of fun to lighten the thread

paul:beerchug:

[Bratty]

I have not a problem with the content or the things that people have said, sometimes opinions are not that of others, that is life. What I was thinking about (concerned ?) was that any trouble making Googeler would hit the search engine with Fashionable "Key" words and find themselves time and time again back at our Forum, and moving the thread to the Adult Section requires a bit more effort to access that info.

Unfortuneately, it seems that nowadays you can not really speak your mind freely, wether it is about Religion, gays and lesbians, etc etc. Which is SAD.

In fact next time you get turned down for a Bank Loan or a Job, just say "Is it because I am a Muslim, crossdressing, homesexual Jock or what!

Dunk

[MFGF]

I am a Muslim, crossdressing, homesexual Jock

You are??? :fest30::D

Maybe you need to confess in Captain Answer's thread! :)

[Bratty]

See how easy it is to take things out of context and manipulate words.

Crossdressing, homasexual, Jock I can take!

Dunk

[Bratty]

We seem to be dwelling on Religion and there is not much input on spirituality, which is a much less emotive subject:confused:?

I sometimes have the feeling that I am here (existing!) and there is really nothing else, No Hell! (apart from the town in the Cayman Islands, so I have been to Hell and Back at least three times:D! on work trips).

And what fails is peoples appreciation of what is actually around (Free!!?!!), like mountains, glaciers, volcanoes, etc. If people with a gripe or a REALLY BAD attitude (spiritually or otherwise) picked themselves up and drove their Sorry Arrses to somewhere like the Black Mountains, Lake District or the Highlands (and instead of taking the easy alternative), walked and felt what it is really like to feel weather and discomfort. THEN! I would have more tolerance! But the majority of people do not realise that their existense probably has relied on pure chance (ie. that a T-rex that stood on an ameba and accidently created a human DNA by momentarily mixing it with Triceratops ****.)

Get out and live, Mr terrorist.

Dunk