Conclusive Proof our Politicians couldn't devise effective policies even if their lives depended on it!

[gazza57]

I had to smile recently, when I read an article about snow and ice outside residential properties.
In the US, and most countries in Europe, legislation requires people to clear the ice from the pavement immediately outside their property within 24 hours, they are supplied with a sack of salt/grit by municipal authorities with which to do this.
Contrast that with the UK in which you are not required to do anything and sadly nobody else bothers either and the ice remains.
Ironically current UK legal advice is that clearing snow from your property puts you at legal risk in that if you sweep the snow to one side and somebody falls over because of it, you can be held legally liable.
Only in this tinpot boghole could politicians be so inept as to draft laws like these whilst failing to even resource grit/salt production to a level which ensures it is safe for everybody.
Well done to our politicians, if there were a prize for inaction, ineptitude and drafting of unsuitable law our country irrespective of a Labour or Tory government would win every time.
Gazza57:zx11:

[zollaf]

i spent christmas in the in laws pub in wolverhampton. the car park was very slippery with a coating of ice. i offered to spread some grit on it before a customer slipped. 'no no no, cant do that', was the reply. someone might slip n' sue. absolutely pathetic. this country has gone the American sue culture way, but with no common sense thrown in at all. idiots.

[kite]

Thay now decide to spread less salt to "conserve" salt, also on the news
we have ordered salt from somewhere in the Med,it will arrive late Jan, just in time for the thaw no doubt...

[JSH]

i spent christmas in the in laws pub in wolverhampton. the car park was very slippery with a coating of ice. i offered to spread some grit on it before a customer slipped. 'no no no, cant do that', was the reply. someone might slip n' sue. absolutely pathetic. this country has gone the American sue culture way, but with no common sense thrown in at all. idiots.

Went outside to clear Snow / ice from front of house, To be told by my neighbour that he heard on the radio that If you leave it and someone falls & hurts themselves it isnt your problem. But by clearing the pavement you take on responsibility and are therefore liable to prosecution!.
I dont know how leagally true this is but it wouldnt suprise me if it was correct
Retirement cannot come soon enough to get out of this crazy country, Its bugger'd to the point of no return.... & you cannot unscramble eggs!
John

[turbine2]

Ironically current UK legal advice is that clearing snow from your property puts you at legal risk in that if you sweep the snow to one side and somebody falls over because of it, you can be held legally liable.

I'd love to know where this comes from. I've heard a lot of it as 'everyone knows' it (like everyone knows the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth) but never been able to pin it down to an authority that actually gives this advise. It's the worst case interpretation of the law and unlikely.

H&S says that you have a duty of care for yourself. If you fall over because it's icy when all around you are saying don't go out unless it's absolutely necessarilly I can't see, and you'll have to excuse the pun, that you'd have a leg to stand on if you were to fall over because someone had done a half hearted job of clearing the snow.

[gazza57]

Turbine,
this came from a BBC news website last Thursday which quoted a legal firm's interpretation of UK law as it it currently stood.
They did however say you would need to prove negligence which would be difficult unless of course you are rich enough to employ a top QC.
The thing that really gets me is that you are at risk, and we all know law especially in the UK has nothing at all to do with common sense and more to do with barristers!

Gazza57

[gazza57]

I'll tell you something I don't understand, how is it under the same banner of law in the UK, a local council can ignore it's obligation to grit/salt pavements even though you have paid through council tax for this service and in succesful cases of litigation, the council will pay litigants with the money you originally paid to salt/grit the pavements?
How does that work?
Gazza57

[turbine2]

If that's the same BBC peice I saw last night, where they went to the claims direct type lawers then I'm afraid I'm still not convinced. They were talking about things like pouring boiling water on the ground which then froze which is not clearing the snow / ice from your driveway.
As you say, it's proving the negligence, and if you're going against the advice of the police / council / etc. which is not to venture out unless absolutely necessary and then to take care if you do because it's icy and you still fall over an injur yourself then you're negligent in your duty to take care of yourself.
I'm willing to bet that no one who has cleared their driveway (or the streets as some have) have had any claims successfully made against them (or in fact made against them). A statement from injury lawers for you dot com isn't going to convince me otherwise.
Especially when, in the same peice, councelors are telling people to apply common sence with these things. Criminal law is very much about the lawers, civil law is much more balanced.
There does need to be clarity on this though, although no one appears to be willing to step up to the plate to make a formal statement though, which I think is a shame.

[turbine2]

It can ignore it (or prioritise it) because it's making best efforts under exceptional circumstances, and concentrating on the higher priority bits (main roads, motorways, etc.) first.

[gazza57]

Turbine,
Trouble is, because we get winter freezes like this so infrequently, the salt/grit degrades, so any left over goes to waste, in Europe it's always used up every year, but here we can and often do have a completely snow free winter.
As the councils get reamed if it is wasted they are tempted to busk it with just enough salt/grit to get by until of course you get a cold snap as long and as prolonged as this one then they come unstuck.
The people I have sympathy for are the elderly. a fall for them can mean a broken hip and/or death due to pneumonia, not to mention the thousands of pounds spent on hospital stays in the NHS, my mum broke her wrist last year and spent over a month in hospital.
The paths are left untreated and these people have to either stay in and live off tinned food or risk their life for a trip to the shops.
This is 100% the fault of the government who should ring fence salt/grit to ensure all paths/roads are properly treated, they manage it in Europe why not here?
As you rightly say turbine2 it is a matter of priorities and unfortunately the elderly never get properly considered.
Gazza57

[turbine2]

Can't disagree with you there Gazza.

[Dudey Head]

Ironically current UK legal advice is that clearing snow from your property puts you at legal risk in that if you sweep the snow to one side and somebody falls over because of it, you can be held legally liable.


There's a similarly stupid state of affairs with dog ownership. Having two dogs, one being a dobermann - a lovely natured dog, but nonetheless an instinctive guard dog - the other a patterdale terrier - much smaller but stocky, powerful & protective of his territory - I considered putting a beware of the dog sign on the back gate. That was until I found out that by doing so I would be conceding that my dogs are dangerous (which they're not, they're great with people that they know are allowed in) & if any intruder climbed over (& the back is quite inaccessible with a tall gate) & they had them I would be open to prosecution. If there was no sign & the same happened then I can't be touched because it's private land.
Just to recap:
- I could be sued for warning potential trespassers that I have a very big dog (and a stocky smaller one too) that will not take kindly to them
- I can't be sued for letting them drop into their jaws.
Clever.
Guess whether there is a warning on my gate or not.

[pon]

My parents had the same problem nearly thirty years ago with a pair of Alsations which were family pets first foremost. They were advised not to put up beware of the dog signs at the pub they owned at the time. As it would be an admission that the dogs were dangerous, no signs went up either.
My Siamese cat at the time was the dangerous one, at least four people had hospital treatment after an attack by him followed by countless visits to the vets by most of the neighbours pets.

[zollaf]

so if i get caught by a speeding camera, and theres a sign saying 'beware of the speeding camera', can i sue ???

[pon]

Only if it jumps out and bites you:D

[netherfield]

On the local news last night--

A North Yorkshire farmer as a four wheel drive tractor and a snowplough attached to the back, he uses this to keep his own property cleared of snow.

He volunteered to keep the roads in the village ploughed,no charge involved.

His local coucil sent him a lot of forms,stating he should have at least £5 Million of Public Liability Insurance and that because the plough was at the rear of the tractor he could only use 'White Diesel in the tank', but if he wanted to mount the plough to the front of the tractor then he could use 'Red Diesel'.

Needless to say he decided not to bother at all.


When we were younger,my Brother and myself had the job of keeping the path to the house and the pavement in front free of snow and ice,the ash from the coal fire was saved and bagged all year round,and then spread on the said places.
On top of this we also walked more than a mile to do the same for Grandparents.
All the people in the street kept their own frontage cleared of snow.

[paulthefox]

what a load of crap from that council not wanting said farmer to be public spirted, perhaps they are frightened in case member of public falls and sues them:biglaugh:

its a case of the tail wagging the dog in uk at the moment where will it all end i wonder
plus you pay enough in council taxes so this should not be an issue,when are local elections due again

paul:beerchug:

[Dudey Head]

My parents had the same problem nearly thirty years ago with a pair of Alsations which were family pets first foremost. They were advised not to put up beware of the dog signs at the pub they owned at the time. As it would be an admission that the dogs were dangerous, no signs went up either.
My Siamese cat at the time was the dangerous one, at least four people had hospital treatment after an attack by him followed by countless visits to the vets by most of the neighbours pets.

In one way it's good - there's more chance of thieving little 5h1t's getting bitten!
That Puss-cat of yours sounds a bit of a bruiser! :bigeyes2:

[Panzerdriver]

Now you can see why this country is going to the dogs and sensible people are leaving to go to other countries where common sense is not forbidden.

How our parents and grand parents must feel about the way things are here remains to be seen.

Those of the era of the second world war where everybody helped each other with no worries of being chastised by some small minded ****** from the local council or tree hugging brigade must be in total despair of the current situation in this country.

The past several governments have a lot to answer for for the way they have let this country sink so low.

There are still a lot of good people in this country willing to help anybody no matter who but the red tape is now so deep and so many petty minded tosspots who would do anything to prevent help being given that this help will no longer be given.

What a crap society we live in, i pity what my son and his generation and future generations will have to put up with in this country.

[gazza57]

I had a similar experience with my garden shed and the council, I have a big shed which adjoins a piece of land that was having a new house built on it, the numbskull builder put a pile of reclaimed bricks against my fence and couldn't be bothered to secure his site properly.
Needless to say, somebody used the bricks to climb over my fence, break a window in my shed and steal £1000 worth of garden stuff, strimmer, hedgecutters, chainsaws, drill , garden blower so on and so on.
Asked the bulider to move the bricks he ignored me, so I pushed the pile over and put some barbed wire on the to of the fence.
Got a letter telling me barbed wire was dangerous????????? ahhh yes but only if you are stupid enough to try to climb over.
Got another letter threatening legal action but sadly nothing could be done about the thefts from my shed, suggested a crime reference for insurance, rather missing the point don't you think?
considered having a neon sign made with the words"free tools help yourself" this is what law makers and PC council officials have reduced us to now.
Gazza57:D

[martin1810]

I gave up on this country when my 73 year old mother was fined £2000 and given a criminal record because she accidently let another persons dog escape and it attacked another dog. So now my mum is a criminal. The law in this country has become a joke.

[Dudey Head]

There does seem to be a tendency to worry about 'peripheral' legal issues such as letting your dog off it's lead or putting prickly things on your fence rather than focussing on antisocial vermin that prey on the vast bulk of decent peeps.
At the end of the day they shouldn't be going over someone elses fence so if they get cut or bitten tough 5h1t!

[MalcQV]

There does seem to be a tendency to worry about 'peripheral' legal issues such as letting your dog off it's lead or putting prickly things on your fence rather than focussing on antisocial vermin that prey on the vast bulk of decent peeps.
At the end of the day they shouldn't be going over someone elses fence so if they get cut or bitten tough 5h1t!

It is very difficult dealing with criminals but the law abiding citizen is quite an easy target!

[JSH]

I've been off work the last couple of weeks and I've become aware that daytime tv is full of adverts for companies wanting to sue the **** off anyone when an accident has happened
Having been in an accident in Germany a couple of week ago caused by snow & ice, the next morning when I got up I ( Back in the UK ) I had severe pain in my arm so I went to A&E ,in the waiting room I was approched by a solicitor who wanted to represent me!.... Bloody vultures!.

Shopping in Sainsburys this morning. A woman was shopping but oblivious to her child running a amock charging up and down the isles and generally being a brat. The enevitable happened and it fell over a large grey mat (That I later fould to be there to catch any water from a chiller cabinet). I was asked / told if I saw what happened. I agreed and the manager was summoned. Upon his arrival the mother went into a rant about how dangerous this was and she should claim etc, The manager turned to me and asked what I had seen. My responce was, If the mother had been incontrol of her offspring and not inflicting it on others the little brat wouldnt be screeming, She should be charged for all the produce that it had interfeared with & I doubt I would'nt be the only one to smile to themselves when the inevitable happened.

All it requires when someone falls and hurts themselves & sues, is for the Judge to say "look where your going you Clot !" and make them liable for all costs. Others would soon start to think twice before claiming.
John :beerchug:

[Dudey Head]

I've been off work the last couple of weeks and I've become aware that daytime tv is full of adverts for companies wanting to sue the **** off anyone when an accident has happened
Having been in an accident in Germany a couple of week ago caused by snow & ice, the next morning when I got up I ( Back in the UK ) I had severe pain in my arm so I went to A&E ,in the waiting room I was approched by a solicitor who wanted to represent me!.... Bloody vultures!.

Shopping in Sainsburys this morning. A woman was shopping but oblivious to her child running a amock charging up and down the isles and generally being a brat. The enevitable happened and it fell over a large grey mat (That I later fould to be there to catch any water from a chiller cabinet). I was asked / told if I saw what happened. I agreed and the manager was summoned. Upon his arrival the mother went into a rant about how dangerous this was and she should claim etc, The manager turned to me and asked what I had seen. My responce was, If the mother had been incontrol of her offspring and not inflicting it on others the little brat wouldnt be screeming, She should be charged for all the produce that it had interfeared with & I doubt I would'nt be the only one to smile to themselves when the inevitable happened.

All it requires when someone falls and hurts themselves & sues, is for the Judge to say "look where your going you Clot !" and make them liable for all costs. Others would soon start to think twice before claiming.
John :beerchug:
:beerchug:

All our insurance premiums might go down a bit then as well!