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View Full Version : Yet another white smoke on cold start - but maybe fixed?



richard_gomm
28-06-2009, 12:24 PM
Hi all,

firstly thanks to everyone whos helped with this problem on the other posts (back in october.) Its still not fixed but I think I'm much closer now. As theres been so many false leads I thought it would be easier to post new (plus didn't want to bump an octover 2008 post back up :-)

The problem is basically white smoke on startup on a passat B5.5, I know its common and I've read through the other posts and will try to build the results into this one.

The car is a Passat 1.9 TDI 130bhp AWX Engine 2002 reg.
The white smoke only comes out on a cold start, by that I mean engine left over 8 hours. The outside temperature doesn't seem to make much different (maybe slightly less smoke on a hotter day) Its a dark white, maybe white/blue smoke and smells very sickly and strongly of diesel, the smoke lasts about 10 - 20 seconds, a little gentle reving gets rid of it quickly. The car always fires on the first crank whether engine is hot or cold, however it will run rough for a few minutes before settling out.
Outside temp at this time of the year, ranges from 10 - 20 degree C.

So far the car has had the following work:
glowplugs replaced and wiring checked - all show btwn 11.6V and 12.3V
new wastegate valve
new turbo (old one was on its way out)
one new injector and complete injector harness replaced (due to a missfire)
compression test - good
new MAF
service of all filters & fluids
Coolant sensor replaced and checked to be showing the correct temp.

Inital thoughts from myself and the mechanic is that the smoke smells of unburnt diesel and various ideas were thrown around which resulted in the compression test, which was fine, and then the replacement of the turbo.

Since none of that fixed the problem we started looking at the glowplugs. All were replaced and the wiring checks out. I went out when the engine had been left for 15 hours, outside temp was around 16 C and plugged VAGCOM into the car. I turned the ignition on but didn't crank the enigne. Glowplug light came on and immediately went out (lit for less than a second) VAGCOM showed the glowplug status as 01010000 - which according to the label is Pre Glow not required. I then cranked the engine and watched the smoke come flooding out. THe amount of smoke is enough to see clearly in the rear mirror and be blown across to the fron tof the car before dispersing. Gently reved the car to around 3000 revs and the smoke increased before going after around 20 secs.

The latest test that I ran last night was that I disconnected the Coolant Temp sensor to force the glowplugs on for the 20 seconds. I had to remove the sensor to get to the connect so I lost a lot of Coolant (it was down at Min after) I then left the car overnight.

This morning I've gone out and put the sensor back in the hole but didn't connect the wiring.

Turned the car to ignition and the glow plug came on for a good 20 secs, I then cranked the car and for the first time there was NO smoke!! It still ran rough for a few minutes but no smoke.
What I did forget though was to refill the coolant tank before starting the car so the test might be invalid.

Basically my thoughts / questions at the moment:
1. The coolant in the top of the engine was lost when I pulled the sensor out last night. Is it possilbe that the coolant is seaping through somewhere overnight and only getting burnt on the enigne start? The car isn't using any large amount of coolant, I haven't had to top it up for over a year.

2. What sort of temp range does the ECU switch the glowplugs on? I've tried changing it to a longer glow period but it doesn't make any difference. THe light comes on and goes out straight away.

3. Can I know rule out stem valves as it didn't smoke this morning?

4. Would retarded timing be affected by the glowplugs being on longer? Would retarded timing give white wmoke?

I've filled the coolant back up so I'll try again tomorrow, this time starting it will had sat all night with a full coolant tank.

thanks again everyone
Richard[/SIZE]

benjie
28-06-2009, 11:15 PM
Erm.. Bit tricky this one!
Is you EGR and inlet manifold clean?
How about the injected quantity and the ECU's percieved injected quantity? (mg/stroke) Can this be adjusted? (It could be on the non-pd's)

I don't think the glow plugs come on till a really low temp like 4degrees, though over the years on forums I've heard all sorts of figures for this.

richard_gomm
29-06-2009, 09:20 AM
right, new movement on this -

went out and started the car this morning, again no smoke on startup!! But the place absoutly stinks of diesel, I mean the whole area around the car not just the exhust.....

Whilst under the bonnet I pulled the oil cap off, and for the first time ever I found white/grey smoke coming out in puffs from the oil. There's always been a large amount of pressure and blow out from the oil cap but never smoke before.....

I logged the enitre startup through vagcom and I'll plot it to graphs later so you can all see whats happening with the injected quantity etc.

any thoughts in the meantime?

thanks

chassy
29-06-2009, 10:30 AM
retarded timing will cause smoke, and I doubt you'd get coolant seeping through eng block or gaskets.... this could be tricky but really sounds like a badly tuned car, the diesel factoring in makes this unfamiliar for me personally but with an ECU, you have a program that runs exaclty the same every time for what ever factors of 1. water temp, 2. air temp, 3. emissions and so on.. it is not adjustable, it is reloadable but not something you can just adjust.

SO, I'm getting to the point of that the car runs on the input of all your sensors, if one is bung you can run into probs so go over the sensors first like CO2 although unlikely, MAF as you have already done, coolant as you have done, (being the cheapest options) and then onto the heftier items..

Have you looked at the intake? blockages and restriction from blocked up filters can cause poor performance in cold starts.

Exhaust leak may cause poor running, may even be a dud ECU..

Check wiring looms in engine bay, specially around the sensors as poor signal strength from dud wiring is essentially the same as dud components....
......are you able to just put it on VW to sort out?

but most of all, i hope you sort it out, ........ sounds like a sensor, lock it in... for sure!!

Chas...

chassy
29-06-2009, 10:33 AM
oh and a lil smoke from oil cap on hot motor isn't weird at all.. cold motor maybe, if LOTS of smoke..?

richard_gomm
29-06-2009, 11:11 AM
Vagcom- Group 001 from engine cold start

http://www.traceyourfamily.co.uk/group001.jpg



Group 004 from enigne cold start


http://www.traceyourfamily.co.uk/group004.jpg


group 13 whilst idling. Inhector 2 was replaced about 5k the others are original... 100k of usage

http://www.traceyourfamily.co.uk/group13.jpg

thanks

mdauncey
19-07-2009, 03:50 PM
Hi. I'm not that familiar with VAGCOM but it does look as if the graphs give good clues:
1. Timing of injection doesn't match specified - likely to give por combustion?
2. 3 injectors fairly even and match specified volume/stroke 4th way off - not going to give smooth running?
Hope these thoughts useful.
I was going to ask whether VAGCOM could measure/displat injection timing and your printout seems to idicate that it does.

benjie
19-07-2009, 04:05 PM
I would say graph 3 shows your problem. Print it out and take it to whoever fitted your injector. (Or the supplier if it was you who fitted it)
Did you change the copper washer when it was done?
I also think there's some kind of test a diesel specialist can do to confirm your problem.

richard_gomm
19-07-2009, 04:18 PM
cheers, I asked the diesel guy at the time. He explained that the graph just shows that the new injector doesn't have to work as hard as the other 3 that have 100k on them. Short of changing the other 3 as well I don't see how to test that comment...

However I have managed to reduce the smoke on startup and smooth out the idle. I adjusted the timing on the engine as per another thread. Not ideal but the car runs so smooth now, although the mpg has dropped drastically and the car stinks of diesel.

The only way to completely get rid of the smoke is to disconnect the coolant sensor and leave the glow plugs on for 20 seconds... may I have the wrong plugs installed?

David Horn
19-07-2009, 04:35 PM
cheers, I asked the diesel guy at the time. He explained that the graph just shows that the new injector doesn't have to work as hard as the other 3 that have 100k on them.

IMHO, he's talking rubbish. VAG-COM's not even reporting a sensible figure for that injector, and even if you ignore the sign it's actually injecting more fuel per stroke than the others anyway.

Find a RELIABLE VW diesel specialist and show him that graph.