Where have we gone wrong in the UK?

[gazza57]

I ask this question simply because I recently spent four days in Berlin and the difference in many things was blatantly stark.
Take for example parking, everywhere in Berlin was €1,50 per hour, and despite popular belief the traffic wardens were courteous and applied some discretion in the enforcement of the regulations, you could park anywhere and could validate the ticket at any machine, buy four hours use two one place use two the next day somewhere completely different.
Buying longer tickets was cheaper, all the machines gave change as well as accepting credit cards.
A €15 underground ticket gave you four days unlimited travel and reductions on lots of attractions within the city.
The underground the U bahn was immaculate, clean, fast, cheap and completely free of litter both on the tracks and on the platforms, this could also be said of Berlin's streets clean and litter free.
Contrast that then with returning here to good 'ol blighty, paid £5.00 for four hours parking (recently up 19% despite the downturn) at home in Southampton, tickets are not transferable are zoned thus preventing use anywhere else, the machines do not give change and the credit card payment was not operational at the time due to server problems.
Had to go to a local shop to beg some change wading through litter strewn streets packed full of empty beer cans, discarded take away boxes, bottles, condoms, two or three piles of vomit and human excrement laying in the street it was absolutely disgusting.
It's not until you visit somewhere else that is so markedly cleaner that one realises just how filthy some of our streets have become.
I'm sure they'll be somebody who'll say if I like it there so much perhaps I should go and live there, but I like the UK and would like it's streets to be as clean as Berlin's.
Gazza57:mad:

[martin1810]

When you see teenagers sitting in a car in macdonalds car park throwing their litter out the windows when there is a bin provided you have to wonder what is happening to this country.

[B6Andy101]

You cant even get British apples in Tesco. Do I want apples from Chile, South Africa, New Zealand or the USofA. I think not.

[Crasher]

I would not even know where to begin to say what is wrong, I just wish we could wind the clock back 10 years and start again… I fear though that it is too late, the influx of immigrants can’t be reversed, people of low morals and standards cannot be re-educated and so what do you do that is legal? There is only one solution, emigrate!

[martin1810]

Over the last few years I have had alot of money stolen off me by non paying customers who just do a runner. It seems to me that too many people want everything in life but don't want to work/pay for it. Strangely the hardest working and most honest people I seem to meet these days are from eastern europe.

[Crasher]

I get a lot of eastern Europeans in for work on their cars. Overall the only difficulty I have with them is the language barrier but they try very hard to speak English. I also get a lot of other types in who literally drive me up the wall, rude, slimy, make appointments and don’t turn up-makes me angry! We are getting quite adept at knowing who will cause us grief now and we simply turn them away. The something for nothing brigade.

[bricam1]

For the last couple of years I have been considering leaving to go and live in Spain and as the months go by that urge is getting stronger. The less you do in this country the more help/handouts you get. But if you work hard for a living you get hammered left, right and center. :aargh4:

Regarding McDonalds I chined a couple of youths last year about tossing there litter out of the car when the bin was in front of there bumper. They looked at me as if I had 2 heads and some sort of nutter. But a least they got out and put there rubbish in the bin.

At the end of the day the parents have a lot to answer for my daughter has been taught from when she could walk to put all rubbish in the bin and if there is no bin to put it in her pocket.

[gazza57]

There you have it Bricam,
It's about moral standards and about teaching your children the difference between right and wrong, you obviously have but others sadly can't be bothered.
All children are born with a clean slate and behave in a way that reflects the environment in which they have been brought up.
Unfortunately, there is a section of society in this country who believe that doing as little as possible is a vocation. These are the sorts of people who see unemployment as a career choice rather than a temporary situation.
It is these same people who take no responsibility for the behaviour of their children and instil no moral compass in their offspring.
It is then not surprising to learn it is those same people who soil everything they touch, discarding litter where they stand.
Everything they come across they either seek to eat it or break it and then throw it on the floor and the sad part is that these peole procreate and produce offspring equally as amoral.
Gazza57:D

[Crasher]

You forgot the spitting on the floor bit.

[Combover]

This country has gone to the dogs bit style.

Most people I know work hard, long hours to provide for their families. They are decent people who have never claimed a penny in their lives and some have come from having nothing.

these are the people who i admire. I like to think I am one of these types of people. I am out of the house for 12 hours a day, hardly see the missus or my son, but I provide for them so they are safe and secure etc.

Then you get the Jeremy Kyle generation. Those who think the world owes them everything. Why should they work when they get money doled out to them for sitting on their a$$e$?

They have no desire to better themselves in life. No ambition, intelligence or motivation.

They then claim - oh yeah i had a rough childhood. No money, I had nothing growing up etc.

Take my dad. One of 6 kids from a very very poor Irish family. Kicked out of school at 14. At 16 got an apprenticship with an Engineering company. 39 years later he is Engineering Director, in charge of Europe, Africa, Middle East and USA. He is regualrly in Germany (where he spends 50% of his working week), and can't rate it highly enough

Contrast with his brother who hasnt worked a day in his life. The whole 'upbringing' thing is ******

Sorry, rant over!

[gazza57]

Combover,
You'll always get the exceptions and as you notice I whole heartedly agree with your sentiments, your self respect from wanting to work and provide for yourself and your family is commendable and I feel similar sentiments.
What I am saying though is that in general offspring are guided by the role models in their formative years which are their parents.
I too spent my childhood on a tough council estate, my parents both left school at 14 with my mum working as a waitress and my dad as a labourer, but in those days being out of work was something you did not want to broadcast and something you wanted to end as soon as possible.
My parents moved into a council flat in 1959 and in those days everybody took turns cleaning the communal landings and bin area for example.
My Mum is still living there but contrast some of her younger neighbours now who apart from not bothering to clean the communal areas, they leave reeking bags of rubbish outside their door because they can't be ***** to take it to the bins and they often lob furniture and or rubbish off of the balcony to crash to the ground four floors below, I never ever saw that happen as a kid.
Now it's all over the place, everywhere, why? because standards of behaviour and public duty just don't exist anymore, they do nothing that doesn't benefit them directly, if there's nothing in it for them they just don't want to know.
The irony of it is that my Mum bless her is now 81 and still cleans the communal landing once a week as she has done for 50 years and some of her neighbours scoff at her for doing so.

[paul b]

I noticed Gazza briefly talking about rubbish...

I work (but not for much longer :D) for a property rental company in Didsbury, and if I'm working, I can't leave rubbish anywhere. If I do, people add to it, and a little pile becomes a huge pile. It really annoys me when the crap joiner we have leaves all of his rubbish in the back garden of properties, for instance I was fitting a back gate the other week, and what did I find in the back garden? The old front door which was replaced about 2 months ago! Thanks Mr Joiner, guess who got rid of it for you, you lazy git! :aargh4:

Honestly, I've done more tidying up in Didsbury in the last 2 years than anyone. And I don't mean to blow my own trumpet. :Blush2:

[elvismiggell]

Is it just me or is it vaguely interesting that as a country we're getting collectively riled up over MP's expenses when we've let the country get into the state it's in.

Individually we may be shining examples of everything that is good about humanity, but as a country we're basically turning into Wayne and Waynetta Slob.

How can we expect politicians to resist the lure of taking as much money as legally possible, when as a society we seem unable to drag ourselves out of the gutter on a friday night.

All this crap people spout about immigration and the such like leading to lower standards is utter tosh. People have been coming and going from this country for well over 500 years.

No, I believe we've gotten lazy with our consumer led, me first society, and we've gotten from our politicians exactly what we deserve, condescension bordering on contempt.

I don't see how until we stop tolerating yobs on busses, drunkards on a friday night, litter droppers, loud mouthed abusive kids and all the other miscreants in our society, we can expect anything else from our government. After all, they're residents of the uk too!

I'm as guilty as the rest of us of standing by and letting these things happen, and until we start to collectively speak up, we may as well shut up or put up.

I'm not saying the streets used to be paved with gold, but go back far enough and they weren't paved with litter, that's for sure. Hell, you wouldn't have dared drop it in the street, at work or at home.

There's no bloody self respect in this country. Just a mob mentality thats degenerating into raving lunacy.

Here endeth the rant...:zx11:

[Dudey Head]

No, I believe we've gotten lazy with our consumer led, me first society, and we've gotten from our politicians exactly what we deserve, condescension bordering on contempt.

I don't see how until we stop tolerating yobs on busses, drunkards on a friday night, litter droppers, loud mouthed abusive kids and all the other miscreants in our society, we can expect anything else from our government. After all, they're residents of the uk too!



Well put, totally agree.

As for the not working thing, unemployment is driving me mad!! How do people aspire to a lifetime of it?!
I simply can't get a job. There's nothing at the mo in what I'm qualified to do & have experience in, I'm over-qualified for a lot of jobs & never even get a response when I apply for something, even temp jobs & don't have the specific qualifications or experience for a change of career!!
I just want something to do & be paid for it!! Not too much to ask, I don't think! :aargh4:

[Combover]

As for the not working thing, unemployment is driving me mad!! How do people aspire to a lifetime of it?!
I simply can't get a job. There's nothing at the mo in what I'm qualified to do & have experience in, I'm over-qualified for a lot of jobs & never even get a response when I apply for something,

I'm still trying for you mate!

However, I think I'm off to the dance soon myself I'm afraid. Our company just isn't making money. We are all being offered as much unpaid leave as we want, career breaks, sabaticals etc.

They are looking to cut costs, and the easiest way is to give you a target, let you get close to it, then change it so you have no chance of hitting it. Then they have a reason to get rid.

[gazza57]

Dudey,
I've been there myself mate, I know exactly how you feel, it is difficult to find a job at present but you are looking and trying your best, and the fact that at present you aren't having much success does drive you mad.
The sorts of people to which I refer don't look for a job because in short they don't want one and that's the difference.
I saw a recent TV programme which examined attitudes and how in the last 10 years or so have signalled a seed change in values.
It featured a 16 year old girl who despite having good prospects, fell pregnant in the Christmas before leaving school and opted out of all of her exams and decided to be a full time mother, nothing wrong in that at all except that her attitude was that it was the responsibility of the state to keep her and her child financially, her boyfriend surprise surprise had turned his attentions to another local girl who'll no doubt end up in a similar condition and yes you guessed it, we'll pick up the bill for that too.
Incredibly, her mother had told her if she has another child of a different sex to her first, she will find herself promoted up the council house waiting list!!!
It seemed to bother the daughter even less that the father of her child had obviated his responsibilities as a father.
What a basis on which to decide whether or not to have a child, these people have no self respect and seem incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions, they made the child so they should support themselves not expect others to do it for them.
There's no shame in looking for work, the shame arises from not bothering to look!

[Dudey Head]

I'm still trying for you mate!

However, I think I'm off to the dance soon myself I'm afraid. Our company just isn't making money. We are all being offered as much unpaid leave as we want, career breaks, sabaticals etc.

They are looking to cut costs, and the easiest way is to give you a target, let you get close to it, then change it so you have no chance of hitting it. Then they have a reason to get rid.

Cheers mate, I know it's an uphill struggle!! I really hope you'll be OK!
Mrs. D. worked in recruitment for a while, her boss was a git, he kept doing that, shifting the goalposts. She walked in the end, back in the "good old days" when there were jobs to be had. We actually had some savings back then, believe it or not, and enough income to cover the debts!!


Dudey,
I've been there myself mate, I know exactly how you feel, it is difficult to find a job at present but you are looking and trying your best, and the fact that at present you aren't having much success does drive you mad.
The sorts of people to which I refer don't look for a job because in short they don't want one and that's the difference.
I saw a recent TV programme which examined attitudes and how in the last 10 years or so have signalled a seed change in values.
It featured a 16 year old girl who despite having good prospects, fell pregnant in the Christmas before leaving school and opted out of all of her exams and decided to be a full time mother, nothing wrong in that at all except that her attitude was that it was the responsibility of the state to keep her and her child financially, her boyfriend surprise surprise had turned his attentions to another local girl who'll no doubt end up in a similar condition and yes you guessed it, we'll pick up the bill for that too.
Incredibly, her mother had told her if she has another child of a different sex to her first, she will find herself promoted up the council house waiting list!!!
It seemed to bother the daughter even less that the father of her child had obviated his responsibilities as a father.
What a basis on which to decide whether or not to have a child, these people have no self respect and seem incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions, they made the child so they should support themselves not expect others to do it for them.
There's no shame in looking for work, the shame arises from not bothering to look!

Cheers Gazza, I now where you're coming from. The more that goes to idle graspers the less there is for people like me who just want some help to get by until we're steady on our own feet again. You know, what the welfare state should be for!! Everyone chips in to help people out of the crap, not to fund their life for them!!

[Mini Mark]

Cheers mate, I know it's an uphill struggle!! I really hope you'll be OK!
Mrs. D. worked in recruitment for a while, her boss was a git, he kept doing that, shifting the goalposts. She walked in the end, back in the "good old days" when there were jobs to be had. We actually had some savings back then, believe it or not, and enough income to cover the debts!!



Cheers Gazza, I now where you're coming from. The more that goes to idle graspers the less there is for people like me who just want some help to get by until we're steady on our own feet again. You know, what the welfare state should be for!! Everyone chips in to help people out of the crap, not to fund their life for them!!

Sometime ago I was listening to a debate on radio 2 about people out of work and they had some women on there saying that people who had been out of work for ages should get first go at job vacenices rather then those who had just lost their jobs... I got so angery why should people who have been out of work during the good times when therre are jobs about get the job other someone who has the same skills etc and has just lost their job through no fualt of thier own. I'm sorry but thoose who have bothered to work during the good times (like Dudley) deserve first go at the jobs that are about not the lazy ones who couldn't be bothered before and have let us pay for everything for them.

Dudley I hope you find a job soon mate and that you get some help in the meantime after all you've paid your taxes and deserve some help during these difficult times

[bricam1]

There is a simple solution to this and that is to cut there benefits. I would set it up like this. For the first year of unemployment I would give good benefit money. But after that I would start to decrease until you get nothing. The benefit system has to be reformed in this country.

There are way too many individuals out there that have left school with no qualifications and expect to walk into a highly paid job. :aargh4:

[Mini Mark]

There is a simple solution to this and that is to cut there benefits. I would set it up like this. For the first year of unemployment I would give good benefit money. But after that I would start to decrease until you get nothing. The benefit system has to be reformed in this country.

There are way too many individuals out there that have left school with no qualifications and expect to walk into a highly paid job. :aargh4:

Totally agree a btter option though is to make theose that can work, work for thier oney in the channel island I belive that if your out of ywork you have to clean the beechs etc befoe you get your benifits this seems like a fair way of doing things

[elvismiggell]

During the Great Depression didn't the Government create jobs in America? Does anyone know whether it was actually considered a success?

Obviously autobahn building in Germany went well for a while... didn't end too well though...

[gazza57]

There is a simple solution to this and that is to cut there benefits. I would set it up like this. For the first year of unemployment I would give good benefit money. But after that I would start to decrease until you get nothing. The benefit system has to be reformed in this country.

There are way too many individuals out there that have left school with no qualifications and expect to walk into a highly paid job. :aargh4:

This has been tried before bricam, the trouble is with this approach is that there are significant numbers of layabouts who will resort to theft in order to fund their lifestyle rather than a week's work.
Our prisons are already full and judges are under pressure not to jail offenders as a result.
The sentencing policies are over lenient and there remains no deterrent because of this.
The PC brigade are far more concerned with the human rights of criminals than those of their victims, they are always concerned about prison overcrowding, prison sanitation, prison education, human rights of prisoners and so on, nobody is saying that prisoners should be maltreated but I do not see why their rights should be considered before those in the outside world.
Many law abiding people in this country work long hours for low wages and they should be considered before criminals.
I think we should build more prisons and jail repeat offenders who seem unable to live in an environment with the rest of us without thieving from society.
I am not concerned with their rehabilitation, the world does not owe them a living, nor does it choose a path of crime, they do this and consequently should face the consequences. Jailing them should be an action to primarily segregate them from law abiding people, rehabilitation should be a secondary aim only undertaken if funds permit.
Prison should be a place which is hard without maltreatment and should be an experience which prisoners choose to avoid in the future.
Sadly that cannot be said of our prisons presently.
Gazza57:approve:

[Combover]

I am not concerned with their rehabilitation, the world does not owe them a living, nor does it choose a path of crime, they do this and consequently should face the consequences. Jailing them should be an action to primarily segregate them from law abiding people, rehabilitation should be a secondary aim only undertaken if funds permit.

Couldn't agree more

[tdigolf]

we need to get gordon brown out asap..

[Crasher]

Not so fast, I don’t want him out just yet. I don’t want a new Tory government to come in when the economy is on its knees, we need to give it another year to let things start to improve and then take over.

[bricam1]

Are you saying you want the Labour goverment to start to turn things round and then for the Tories to come in and steal the glory;)

[Mini Mark]

Are you saying you want the Labour goverment to start to turn things round and then for the Tories to come in and steal the glory;)

You mean like lbour did when they casme to power ;):D

[Crasher]

Yes and my thoughts exactly-if they can do it why not the Tories? John Major handed Blair a gift of an economy, we even had gold in the bank, and look what they did with it, ruined and down the toilet in ten years!

[Mini Mark]

Yes and my thoughts exactly-if they can do it why not the Tories? John Major handed Blair a gift of an economy, we even had gold in the bank, and look what they did with it, ruined and down the toilet in ten years!


I wouldn't envy anyone taking over now they'd have the worst job ever

[tdigolf]

then wont he try and take all the glory of getting us out of it? i dont think he has a chance in the next election every one can see what hes like.. ment to be for the working man thats all he does tax the working man

[BVR.Automotive]

I was a witness to an incident around 18 months ago when i saw someone intentionally running someone over and reversing over them, I stopped, called the police, gave up my time to provide a statement etc.

After around 9 months i had to go to a identity parade (no idea who it was after 9 months!) - had time off work etc.

Was told in January that i would be needed in court in March 09, at this point i explained that if i was needed after April then i would not be avaliable as i was setting up my own business and would not be able to afford the time off (max amount you can claim back when self employed is £85.90!). I was told this would not be a problem as it will be happening in March.

Trial arranged for early March - time off sorted with employer (working notice at this point so was hard to sort out), the afternoon before i am due in court i get a call that trial is going to be adjourned, at which point i explained that i would therefore not be able to attend.

Mid April i get the police at my door who issue a witness summons to me. I am told i will be given notice of trial date.

At 16.45 on a the Friday before May bank holiday weekend i get a call saying that i need to be in court Wed morning. I explained that i already have worked booked all next week and that it was short notice. I was then told that it is good notice and that if court had not been closed on Tuesday i would be getting this call Tue afternoon for court on Wed!!!!

Also they tell me if i do not cancel my work and do not turn up then there will be a warrant for my arrest and i will be detained untill i am required in court. They are not sure if i will be needed Thurs or Fri yet so i need to keep them free but if i am not needed i can't claim anything!!

I had no choice and had to re-shuffle my week and was only used on Wed and could only claim £85.90, as I do not employ anyone else I lost a full days income for Wed and ****** a few of my customers about for Thursday.

The CPS take the P**S and i for one will never be giving a statement ever again or stopping when a very serious crime is happening again.

To top it all off the incident was between two druggy lads on benefits I pay for anyway - the whole country works in the favour of lowlifes!:zx11:

[Panzerdriver]

We need to go back in time to the post war era, yes things were hard, rationing was still in and the place did look like a bomb site literally but children respected their elders, coppers could give kids teens etc a good slap and not be persecuted for it.

We still had the death sentence so crime was much lower and generally everybody respected their parents ( NO BLOODY CHAVS) and we as a country still had respect.

If we knew then what the country was like now would things be different, no tree huggers, the PC brigade and Health and Safety that uses common sense instead of endless miles of red tape oh and no euro MP's making stupid and quite frankly ludicrous decisions for our country to abide by.

This plus much much more, back to basics and start again.

[hongkongstuey]

im 34, since i left school in 1991 the country has gone to pot, kids have no respect for the rules, parents havent got a clue what they are upto, drinking in early teens, gang fights, knives etc. when i was that age i repected the police, knew i'd get a strip tore off me by my dad if the police ever knocked my door, that was enough to keep me in line, nowa days, most kids just blame their behaviour on having nothing to do, bull!! when i was younger we had these things called footballs, we played with them 12-13 hours a day during the summer hols and never once felt the urge to steal car stereos or just set light to something for the hell of it. i use the rule if someone decides to have a go at me, they are equal, if they choose to be 16 and pull a knife then they are still equal and will hit the floor. they think they are immune, they aint.