sticky turbo vanes

[bigplum]

hi, after much reading on here , I have come the conclusion that I may have sticking variable vanes on my passat ( 2001 130 pd tdi awx engine)

the car if driven hard shows no trouble apart from a flat / dead spot around 85 - 90 mph but drive it gently and it will often go into limp mode untill the ignition is turned off

I have tried a new maf & map no change

my question is how easy is it to free off the vanes ? would it be okay to unbolt the actuator and work the arm and maybe squirt some wd40 or carb cleaner in as well
or is a rebuild the only answer

I have seen some pictures on the net showing a very coked up VNT15 turbo which freed up nicely after cleaning

[stevegrass777]

In basic settings on Vag Com 011 it cycles the Turbo from full on to off and can be done when driven and can sometimes clear the problem.

[bigplum]

well after a bit of thinking, I connected a vacuum pump* to actuator and it will move about 8-12 mm

there is a product called innotec turbo cleaner (about £ 30 delivered) made specially for variable vane cleaning anybody use it ? or is it just snake oil ?

on another forum somebody uses oven cleaner squirted in exhaust side for the same effect



* vacuum pump .. my camping airbed 12v inflator with the pipe connected to the deflating nozel of the pump , works a treat .... much better than getting a headache sucking on the pipe

[Frank.A]

You probably won't get enough suck from the airbed pump.The actuator rod should move about 19mm.Check this by watching the rod while someone starts the engine.The rod should move up by this amount and return when the engine is stopped.Faulty actuator diaphragm or N75 valve will give restricted movement as will coked up vanes.

Best,
Frank

[snapdragon]

Can you pull a vacuum and hold it to make sure that it's not leaking away?

[boater]

Hi
I have similar problem on 03 passat 130 tdi

shown code 17964 p 1556 negative deviation, charge pressure control.

I get good vaccum to the vnt vane actuator and it lifts on start up and drops when engine stopped.

showing only atmospheric pressure on vagcom no higher boost pressure as expected


Removed the turbo vane rod vacuum actuator so I could operate the control rod manually.

The rod has about 20mm ish movement BUT is VERY loose?

when lifted it will drop without resistance.

I was expecting to feel some friction as it was lowered and moved the ring that opens the vanes.
Could something be broken off the linkage inside?

Or has somebody done this check and noted that its normal for the rod to be very loose when pulled up and let go?

thanks in advance

[bigplum]

I was wondering what the full travel should be ,

the airbed pump has quite a strong pull but even with a bit of help no more travel was availible .
I will disconnect the arm tomorrow and try the movement direct on the drive pin , should the movement be smooth or with bit of resistance?

I'm leaning towards sticky vanes as opposed to the n75 valve unless its the n75 has been weak causing poor movement which in turn has let the turbo coke up

the funny thing is the car pulls so strong at high speed 90 - 100mph without breaking a sweat but seems unhappy at 60 ,so maybe over boosting?

[boater]

I think the movement of 20mm is normal.

Its not a bad job to disconnect the actuator,

2 x 10mm spanner size nuts underneath [get spares ready in case you loose them]. crack the locknut on the arm and note the position, hold the knurled adjuster and unscrew the actuator rod by revolving the actuator or spinning the knurled adjuster.

I removed the inlet pipe from the turbo first.

I was expecting to be able to "feel" the ring turning and operating the vanes when I pull and pushed the rod, but it feels as loose a spoon in a cup of tea!

Does anyone know what it should feel like?

[trying to imagine what could disconnect / break inside that would explain then feel of the rod moving but not the vanes???????]

[Mike McKinstry]

I too would like to know if anyone has had any success with Innotec?

Mike

[bigplum]

well so far so good .
I used the cleaner from innotec , it does a good job but its very similar to a mr muscle type oven cleaner then flushed out with brake cleaner type spray , what you do get in the kit is a very long flexible nozzle with a 360 degree spray head , you would struggle without it .

While I was doing that I also changed the N75 valve , I was going to do it in stages to try and find the fault but I was running out of time and its easy to do with the airbox and turbo hoses out the way

its also worth looking at the EGR valve, mine was very choked up to the extent that the butterfly was not seating ,

I hate egr valves and will be blanking the bl**dy thing off soon they cause no end of troubles , its common practist to blank them on land rover 300tdi engines

[Mike McKinstry]

What kit did you buy and where from?Also what was the cost as I believe there are several different kits.
Ccan you explain what you had to dismantle to use the cleaner and did you find the job straightforward.?

regards,
Mike

[bigplum]

I got the 5 part turbo cleaner kit ( oven type cleaner ,flushing spray ,feed pipe , bit of cardboard blanking plate, fuel system cleaner) from innotec ( I just rang up , the girl was very helpful and the kit was delivered the next day )

the job itself is straightforward,
remove airfilter housing
undo the 3 x 12mm nuts holding the exhaust to the turbo ( a cranked or a crowfoot spanner would help , a normal one will do but its a bit of a slow job on one of the nuts)

you then fit the cardbourd blanking plate ( supplied in the kit ) using the old exhaust gasket and nuts )
insert the spray head and squirt away
I used a vacuum pump to work actuator but a bike pump might work
then flushed it all out after a hour

whilst i was waiting i changed the fuel filter and filled it with the supplied innotec fuel system cleaner

put it back together with a new exhaust gasket .. job done

[Mike McKinstry]

Sounds great!
And is limp mode gone now and everything working well-no side effects?

[bigplum]

well no limp mode so far , its been about two weeks and it was doing it nearly every day if it was driven gently.
I think cleaning the EGR valve has also helped , the car was easy to stall before but since the cleaning its a lot happier .

if you are thinking of cleaning the EGR make sure you have plenty of carb cleaner, brake cleaner , loads of cleaning cloths and gloves !!!
dead easy job but if its a bad one there will be a mountain of thick black sticky oily soot

[Mike McKinstry]

Nope-my EGR was surprisingly clear when I last checked as was the intercooler when that was cleaned.
I had decided on your course of action N75 (charge pressure )valve (MAP already changed)and failing that Innotec but as you have already said may save hassle to do both at same time although if N75 cured limp would not necessarily have needed Innotec and extra £30 down.

Keep us posted if limp comes back as would be good to know it has done the trick!!

Mike

[Vinster]

Have a Passat TDI Sport 130 Tip and have been having a few problems with limp mode. Had the garage do a test which came back with an overboost problem. Changed the boost pressure sensor - no change. Changed the N75 still no change.
Have concluded that it's the turbo that's sticking. Have ordered some turbo cleaner from innotec.

If this doesn't work there is a company in Birstall that will clean the turbo for £150 +vat.

Failing this it will have to be a new turbo for £550 +vat.

Spoke with an old school mechanic tonight as to what I should do and he suggested that I use steam from a wallpaper stripper and introduce some steam to the air intake and let the engine idle for 1/2 an hour. He said that this would clean things up nicely. Has used this method many times with previous vehicles. He gave the example of when a head gasket goes the top of the pistion nearest the leak is always clean.

Will give this a go also. Will keep things updated as and when.

Going with the cheapest option first.

[bigplum]

I would be would very wary of putting steam into a diesel , you will run the risk of excess water causing a lock up leading to a huge bill for bent valves and rods . maybe the old fella was thinking of a petrol engine , but water(or steam) and diesel don't mix

the innotec stuff works well , don't forget to get a new fuel filter as you will need to change it ( part of the kit contains a fuel treatment that goes in the filter )

[snapdragon]

I agree, I did a lot of work on a BMW diesel a few years ago, and a few drips of water went into the inlet and the engine made a sound like 10 gun salute. This would happen when the steam condenses on the inside of the inlet and migrates inward. When the pistons of a diesel are at the top of their stroke are almost touching the head bar a millimeter or two, a bit of water with the expansion ratio of 10,000:1 will cause a big sudden increase in cylinder pressure.

[Vinster]

Have used the Innotec Turbo Cleaner this weekend. Results are good so far. Getting to the turbo was not too difficult. Removed the air filter housing and associated pipework to get a better view.

The two nearest locknuts were fairly easy to undo but the third one on the far side was extremely difficult. Once off I pulled the exhaust to one side and followed the instuctions with the kit.

The actuator moves the vanes and was quite stiff at this point.

After filling the turbo with the cleaner I managed to get some movement into the actuator and once the cleaner had been in for an hour the actuator became quite free to operate. By hand it was still quite difficult but with a flat blade screwdriver it started to move up and down quite well.

Reassembled everything. Test run. Went good. No limp mode. Hope it lasts.:biglaugh:

[Vinster]

Been a week now. No problems. Car is flying!! Would recommend the innotec but would give the actuator a free up first.

[JonG]

I have posted a thread about this, but it ties in with this. If the turbo vanes stick, will the inlet pressure increase or decrease and what should the pressure be at about 2000rpm ?

[greg123]

That depends where it is stuck, it can vary from 'sticky' to 'stuck' and if the latter, can be anywhere between full an min boost. If the engine keeps going into low power 'limp home' mode, the vanes are stuck in the higher boost positions. This is common.

The prolem is, the vanes are BEHIND the flow of exhaust, in a closed in area. Soot gradually works it's way in and rust builds up, without way out. Eventually it gets packed in and the actuating ring gets stuck. Wiggling may dislodge the deposits, but without any way of getting them out (without stripping the turbo down) it's back to square one a short time later.

The cleaning solutions I have had only temporary success with. As you can't flush the deposits out, even if it trys to dissolve them all, I can't see how it will be washed out - with he exit points for the fluid just being tiny cracks where the VNT assembly is bolted in the casting. However, if it works for people - great.

I have done a fair few and I find that 8 out of 10 can be rebuilt. On the PD and particularly the 2.0 pd it's more likely that worn bearings or other issues mean that the turbo needs rebuilding, but as I say 8 out of 10 on average rebuild fine with no work other than sometimes a little machining of the vanes/drilling and tapping the vanes plate mountings.

As for cost, if the costs mentioned above do not include removal/fitting, than cheaper options do exist if you search on the web/depending on location. I won't say more than that on that subject.

I'd be interested to hear any reports from people who had severe VNT issues and used the 5 part cleaning system, 6 months on. Sometimes freeing up the actuator by working it will restore function for dodgy garages to get rid of the car seemingly without issue etc, but long term resolution I have only seen (yet) new turbos or rebuilt VNT's fixing it.

The above is all presuming that control systems/vacuum piping/n75 etc are in good order. So far, every one I have had in has been the turbo as the causal factor.

FYI a hand vacuum pump CAN provide enough force to test the actuator. When I freshly build up a vnt, without the actuator attached you can move the arm full deflection almost blowing on it, REALLY light and a nice hard 'click' with a metallic sound as it hits either stop.

When setting up a new actuator, it should 'crack' and start moing at 1-2 mmhg and have moved full deflection by 17-20mmhg.

Greg.


I have posted a thread about this, but it ties in with this. If the turbo vanes stick, will the inlet pressure increase or decrease and what should the pressure be at about 2000rpm ?

[DOC23]

my 2002 seat toledo 1.9tdi (110bhp asv engine) is having a similar problem. had it on the computer today, the mechanic reckons i need a new turbo, it came up as having low pressure and he reckons the turbo is sticking.
it would be fine upto 5th gear and 2500-3000rpm it would drop all power likee the turbo ws stopped. although it has nt had its usual power since i put in a new gearbox(if's thats got anything to do with it, i dnt know. maybe the mechanic knocked for broke something??).....been reading on these forums of innotec turbo cleaner. any advice or help would be appreciated before i lose all patience with it!!....been eyeing up a newly built wall!

[greg123]

Well it's pretty well documented if you search the site (& read my prior posts).

You need to make sure it is the turbo not the control system, an N75 output test and vacuum gauge/vacuum pump will give the results accurately.

You then have the options of a VNT rebuild, or a turbo rebuild, or a new turbo. Normally the 110tdi's unless very high miles/abused just need a vnt rebuild. I see more PD/2.0PD with turbos getting shot, they benifit from upgraded thrust bearings so my remanufacturer's tell me. In any case, if it's the turbo, it can be assessed as to the correct option once it's out.

Greg.


my 2002 seat toledo 1.9tdi (110bhp asv engine) is having a similar problem. had it on the computer today, the mechanic reckons i need a new turbo, it came up as having low pressure and he reckons the turbo is sticking.
it would be fine upto 5th gear and 2500-3000rpm it would drop all power likee the turbo ws stopped. although it has nt had its usual power since i put in a new gearbox(if's thats got anything to do with it, i dnt know. maybe the mechanic knocked for broke something??).....been reading on these forums of innotec turbo cleaner. any advice or help would be appreciated before i lose all patience with it!!....been eyeing up a newly built wall!

[stevegrass777]

It's wrong to just put a turbo on.
The turbo may just need the vains cleaning.
As said it could be the N75

[bigplum]

I used the innotec stuff , it worked ( so far ) it suited my very shallow pockets , worse case it will need a proper rebuild /clean but for forty quid and dirty hands for a hour or so its worth it .

the hardest bit was removing the exhaust from the turbo, a cranked 12mmm spanner would help, a normal one will do but its not much fun,

[DOC23]

cheers for the help lads!
think il try innotec turbo cleaner first.
how will i know if the vnt is f*cked when i get looking at it?
also anyone know where i can buy innotec turbo cleaner?
living in dublin so anywhere around there or around donegal/derry would be handy.

[bigplum]

you can buy it direct from them , really fast postage too ( on the mainland anyway) I ordered it and it came the next day .
link here http://www.innotecworld.com/t-contact.aspx


if you are really skint ( like me at the moment ) mr muscle oven cleaner is more or less the same stuff , it smells the same , burns your skin the same , (dunno about the flavour though) .
it would need to be flushed out with the flushing agent that they supply.....
I reackon thats brake cleaner

the kit does come with a nice applicator nozzell , mr muscle would be a bit of a fiddle to direct into the turbo .

Still make your on mind up on what you use , there is another chap on here that swears by mr muscle , it does the same job....dissolves carbon