Golf mk2 16v (1990)

[paramananthamd]

Hi everyone,
I have just bought a Golf mk2 16v and i am having an initial startup/ idle problem. I will try to explain the problem the best I can.

When i start the car in the morning, its start fine and idles ok. When i start driving and then dip the clutch or slow downor come to a stop the revs plummet to aroung 500 and the car sometimes stalls. Then when i try to restart it sometimes it takes a bit of time as it does not really want to start. The car idles pretty bad and the car shudders as if it wants to stall and the revs are low. But after just 2-3 minutes of driving everything is fine and drives/idles/revs like a dream.
This also happens if the car has been sitting around for over 5 hours, but its ok if the car has only been sitting around for a few hours. I thought it might be the cold start valve, but i have changed this and there was no improvement. I have also changed the ISV, and the temp sensors on the side of the head. but still no improvement. I have checked all vacumm hoses and everthing seems ok. Check all earth points/strap and they seem fine as well.
All the spark plugs/leads/rotor arm and dizzy cap are new(ish). I have noticed there is no dust cap or suppression cap on the dizzp cap. Will this cause a problem???
I am thinking about changing the WUR (warmup valve/regultor).
Will a naff ECU cause this problem.

I am sort of running out of ideas, all i can say is that i think its related when the car is coldish.

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks

[paramananthamd]

Forgot to mention, the warm air hose that comes out of the bottom of the air filter box has a split at the end joining to the exaust manifold. Will this cause the problem I am having?

[Crasher]

It just needs setting up to start with. I wrote an article for The Golf+ a few years ago on how to set up a KR engine. I have sent you a PM with my email so if you want a copy I can mail it to you.

[16v mad]

dont replace the wur till you check it....take the h.t lead out the dizzy and earth it,disconect the plug from the wur and put a multimeter accross the wires,set to 20 on the dcv side of the multi meter,crank the engine and you should get 11.5v or more
then put the multi meter across the two terminals of the wur in resistance mode ( the setting with the dioed pic,from cold the wur should read between 20 and 26 ohms

having said all that i think the acumilator is at fault

[Crasher]

That is only for the heater circuit of the Control Pressure Regulator (or Warm up Valve as VAG refer to it on their parts system, part number 035 133 403 G) but at £427.70 for a new VAG sourced unit (it is very difficult to source these elsewhere) I would certainly not suggest changing it without testing it. The test you mention is only for the heater circuit and that has very little effect on its function. The correct test is carried out with fuel pressure testing equipment where the control pressure is monitored from cold and the pressures noted plotted against time from start over temperature and the increase in pressure checked against a graph of how it should be. I find CPR failure is very rare but occasionally I find some suffering a vacuum leak internally.

Accumulator failure is almost unheard of and the accumulator only functions for starting. The only time I have to change accumulators is when they rust through or it is impossible to release the fuel pipes when overhauling the fuel delivery unit.

[16v mad]

ok ill clear things up a bit,when i said how to check the wur,as crasher says thats just the heater side of it,to test properly yes you need a fuel guage,system pressure usually around 5.2 bar and wur at 3.2 bar,,and the accumilater holds pressuere to the fuel system i mentioned these as the first line on you post was initial start up and idle problem,and when you leave it for a few hours you have bad starting,thats what drew me to the two things i mentioned as mine did the same.fine on cld and then get the car warm after leaving it for 5 hours it was a swine to start and these were the two problems i had fixed and car was fine after that

[paramananthamd]

Hi everyone,

I am still having this same problem. I did change the WUR for another one, but this made no improvement. I also changed the ECU and yet again no change.

I am starting to pull my hair out at the moment. :-(

I will try to explain the symptoms again.

When the car is cold (first thing in the morning) or being sitting around for over 5 hours, the car starts up fine with no problems and idles ok, but then after about 30 seconds the revs drop to about 600 and the car starts to misfire and idle bad. Its like if the car wants to cut out. If i drive and dip the clutch the revs plummet to about 150revs and then comes up to about 700. the car also shudders. While driving it, its like the car sort of lacks power and bogs down, but then after only a few minutes (once the engine is a tiny bit warm) all these symptons go away.

Crasher sent me a article on setting up/tuning a KR 16v engine. I have read all this but i am not to sure if its needs a tune up cuz it runs perfect when its warmed up.

I have noticed that there is no dust cap or suppression cap on the distributor cap. Does this matter?
I also looked at the plug to the hall sender and it looks a bit oily. Will this cause the problems.

What do you guys recommend i should do/look at next. Do you think a tune up will be good idea. Obviously I cannot do a tune up myself as for one i do not have the right equipment. Do you think any garage will be able to do this. I Would love to take it to Crashers place but its in Nottingham and i live near bath so thats out of the question. Does anyone know any good garages around the Bath area that know about these cars.

Thanks a lot guys for your help so far.

[16v mad]

if money is no issue then yes for definate have it set up and explain this to the person who will be tuning it,chances are he'll fix it in the tuning sesion
i think to me tho it doesnt sound like an ign problem,i think its still something to do with wur, csv, or ttv,if it was the isv it would do it all the time so its realy just on initial start up,did you do the wur test i showd you,its ok replacing things but you need to check the wiring too,are all the pars you fit i.e csv and wur all new or second hand,i very much doubt the fei or what most ppl call an ecu(which is ifact not an ecu on 16v's as it only controles the spark rate and timing rate)will have anything to do with it

[Crasher]

It strikes me that you may have a problem with the engine ECU coolant temperature sender on the side of the head. Do you own a multimeter? Refer to my article on page 5 for the checking procedure.

[paramananthamd]

Where is the ECU temp sensor, there are 3/4 sensors on the side of the head. One nearest to the front at the top or the one nearest to the back at the top. I have noticed that one of these sensors coolant comes out when you undo it. The other one doesnt. Which one of these is it?
cheers guys

[paramananthamd]

I have also noticed that there is a sensor on the back of the head. What is that for?

[Crasher]

The idle ECU (which is in the centre consul) has a green/red wire and the ignition timing ECU (up in the plenum chamber under the windscreen on the right) has a blue/white wire. These wires get moved around and so which sensor is which is worked out by following the wire as all three small sensors are the same. The exact way the sensors are used is on a diagram I have at work but for now, follow the wire colour.

[Crasher]

The sensor on the back of the head (black/green wire if I remember correctly) is for the MFA oil temperature input. This sensor looks the same but is a different part number, 049 919 563 A (white ring) instead of 049 919 501 (black ring) as used on the side of the head for coolant temperature gauge, idle ECU and ignition ECU. Oddly, even though VW say they are different, most aftermarket suppliers appear to think they are the same and I find this causes the oil temperature to over read (even though in theory it should not make any difference as the differences between the two are the max temps they can handle) making people think their oil temp is too high. Unfortunately the correct specification (as regards the style of connector) NTC sender to use on the side of the head (part number 027 919 501) is no longer available.

[paramananthamd]

Cheers for that crasher. I just went out and checked them, they all appear to be fine. I did have some spare second hand ones which i have changed before but with no difference. If i unplug the Idle ECU temp sensor then the ISV stops buzzing and the car will cut out. I am quite confident that these sensors are ok.
I have the old type ones. I think my only option now is to take it to a garage so they can re tune it. What do u guys recommend?

Another quick question, i have done a oil service 2 weeks ago, but the oil looks very brown, is this common, or is this telling me something?

I have also got a mk2 golf 8v, I have had this for years, and i think that the 8v is faster, the 16v only comes alive when you hit over 4500 revs. Is this how they are? and i dont think that they are as fast as a lot of people make out. Or is there something else wrong with my car. :-(

Cheers again guys.

Does anyone know any good garages that know about this car/engine that is near the Bath/Chippenham/Bristol area. Or does anyone live near by so they can have a look. Obviously I will pay for your help.

[Crasher]

As for recommending anyone down there I have no idea who to suggest. Your car needs someone who knows the KR inside out to take a look. Your observations as to the power delivery of the KR over the EV and later PB are nothing new and that is why my wife has an 8v, my 16v is a very special 2.2 conversion with throttle body injection that I built many years ago in the mid nineties as a show car and was my daily until this time last year, I now have an Octavia VRS. We cure the 1.8 16v’s lack of bottom end grunt with a 2 litre conversion but that is expensive.

[paramananthamd]

Thanks for your help Crasher.

Has anyone used TSR performance? Do you think they are capable of looking at this problem and doing a tune up, as they are not too far from where i am. I don't want them do any performance mods as this car is in standard original condition and i want to keep it that way. I just want them to have a look at the problem and hopefully fix it, and maybe do a tune up.

[Crasher]

Some of the chaps there are from the old Tim Styles days and know full well what they are doing on the KR, I had forgot how close to you they are.

Steve

[paramananthamd]

Just a quick update, i am off to the VW ******* to purchase a new Temp sensor (NTC) for the ISV. (£27.54 :-( I have also booked it into the garage for them to have a look at the problem and to do a tune up. I will keep u guys posted with the results.

[16v mad]

that sounds like alot of money for a sensor try gsf the one crasher mentioned 027 919 501 are a fiver or so from there

[Crasher]

Yes they are much cheaper from places like GSF.

[paramananthamd]

Never mind, i will know next time, cheers.

I fitted the sensor and fitted a new connector. Hopefully i will know tomorrow morning if this has fixed this annoying problem. figures crossed.

Another quick question, is it possible for petrol to leak at the drivers rear of the car behind the wheel. I just saw some petrol on the road and not sure if its from my car or someone elses. did have a good look and everything seemed ok.

[Crasher]

Yes, under the floor there is a reservoir where fuel delivered by the lift pump in the tank is collected and then pressurised by the main system pump. This reservoir also holds the fuel filter and accumulator and are well known for leaking on the seam but are quite tricky to replace now that the parts are old and corroded. The reservoir itself (191 201 043) is just under £50 but you will need a lot of other parts to complete the job.

[paramananthamd]

Cheers for that crasher, i have had another look and i am quite confident it is not coming from my car. How would i check, will it leak all the time?. I just started my car for a good few minutes and checked to see if there was petrol leaking, but seems fine.

If there is a leak, should i be driving it?

[Crasher]

They leak and stop, it is how they are. It is an MOT failure.

[paramananthamd]

Tried the car this morning, and No luck, still the same.
I dis go to the garage and an old guy who tunes up old minis had a quick look. He thinks it could be the Warm up Regulator (WUR). Do you think this will cause this problem. I did change this part last week, but with no improvment. Maybe the part i had was dodgy.

Do you guys think this may be the problem? And where can i get this part second hand.

[Crasher]

Using a second hand Control Pressure Regulator/Warm Up Regulator is OK as they don’t often go wrong but I would not fit another until the one on there has been pressure tested. You need to get the car to a mechanic that knows thee KR engine or you will be chasing your tail around in circles. It may be a wiring fault and no amount of component swapping will fix that.

Describe the fault again exactly as it happened this morning.

[paramananthamd]

Ok, I will try to describe it the best i can when the car was started this morning.

Turned the key and car started first time, and was idling at around 960rpm. The engine sounded nice. No problems at this point.

Put it into first gear and drove it for about 30 metres, at this point the car was running rough and miss firing. Dip the clutch and the revs plummetted to about 300 revs and wanted to stall so i gave it a bit off gas. Drove for another 100 meters and the car didnt sound nice was rough and miss firing. The car was sort of like bogginng down and there was not much power. Came to a junction and slowed down the revs again plummetted to around 300 revs and the car was idling bad and was shuddering as if it was starving from fuel or something, and wanted to cut out. Drove it for another 300-400 metres in which the car didnt really sound that nice, it was pretty rough/lumpy and miss firing. After this 300-400 metres of drive the car is ok and sounds and idles as it should.

One other thing i have noticed is that if its been raining/wet the car behaves worse than if it was hot/sunny/dry.

[paramananthamd]

Also i forgot to mention that when the temp needle goes up a very little bit (before the white area). These symtons seem to disappear.

[Crasher]

Remove fuse 15 and try it like that tomorrow. I presume your car is a late bumper 1990 model with the hazard warning light switch on the steering column?

[paramananthamd]

Yes its is the late big bumper model with the hazards on the steering column.

I will remove the fuse 15 tonight and try tomorrow morning. What is fuse 15 for and what do you think it is?

[Crasher]

It is just a hunch, removing the fuse may make it feel a little odd on the overrun but otherwise you will not notice.

[16v mad]

have you done the wur test yet? not the pressure one, the warm up one,20-26 ohms accross the wur and 11.5v accross the plug,if thats ok try dissconect the cold start valve and see how it runs in the morning it could be overfueling,you need to start doing some basic tests to eliminate certain things

[Crasher]

The resistance of the CPR heater circuit cannot affect the engine in such as short period of time; it takes at least 1 minute for the heater coil on the pressure diaphragm to start increasing the control pressure.

[paramananthamd]

Hi,
I have just taken out fuse 15, and still the same, sounds rough at idle and mis firing. The thing i have noticed though is that its worse when it rains... and its been raining heavily for the last hour or so. is this a clue to anything.... is something getting damp. As i said before, there is no suppression cap or dust cap on the distributor cap/rotor arm.

[Crasher]

I thought it only did this first thing in the morning and for a few seconds? Even though you have said that all the HT components are newish, it sounds HT related but I had avoided that with you saying they were newish. The cap on the distributor sounds like the wrong one, it may even have the incorrect lead fitting and I bet the HT leads aren’t good quality item’s which can cost £130 for a top quality make such as Blue Igniters. So now I suggest you think about a new set of top quality HT leads (ones specifically tailored for a 16V Golf 2) and a correct distributor cap and rotor arm. Check the plugs are correct and if you are not sure, post the number that is fitted and I will tell you. If I had the car in my place, I would recommend a genuine VAG exchange distributor (complete with cap, rotor and inner shield) and a set of Blue Igniters with Beru plugs and see what effect that had. Remember that changing the distributor means it has to be set up correctly and that is the article I sent you as are plug specs, distributor cap and rotor numbers and the number for a new VW distributor. If you do take my advice and buy a new distributor, only buy it from VW as I have had problems with ones sourced elsewhere.

[16v mad]

hmm its possible,iv had arking between the lead ends on the cap before now and i live near a river,get lots of fog and moisture,ok take each lead of the dizzy one by one,,unscrew the plug lead end off and give it a slight,soft wire brush clean then screw the plug lead end back on but just till it nipps(dont overtighten it)do this with all 5 and then spray a tiny bit of wd40 over them.....best time to check for arking is in the dark,pop the bonnet and look at the dizzy leads and you may see it,you can also hear it,,,its like a cracking sound

having said all that i still dont think its an ignition problem...but hey no-ones perfect,thats only my opinion,like i said earlier do some simple tests,give us the results..
the best way to find fault is process of ilimination

[paramananthamd]

The leads are quantum leads, but not too sure about the brand of the distributor cap or rotor arm. Should the dizzy be able to move a bit in its housing, as mine moves around a bit. (10 mm either way) The distributor itself does look brand new and is a genuine VAG one, but i noticed there was a bit of oil in the hall sender plug, i am not too sure this is a problem as i just had the rocker cover gasket replaced a few weeks ago. (another nightmare story, use only genuine VAG ones, as any others are a waste of money!).

This problems occurs in the morning or if the car has been left sitting for over 4-5 hours. I tried it yesterday after it had been sitting for about 2 hours and problem occured, (but this does not always happen) i though it might be cuz it was raining heavily and something might of got damp or something.

If it was something to do with the HT leads/Cap/rotor arm/distributor, then will this problem would happen all the time while driving?

Thanks guys for all your input.

I am determined to get to the bottom of this problem. I have already spent around £100 on parts to elimate some things.

[16v mad]

no the dizzy shouldnt move at all it should be secured to the head by 2 x 10mm bolts,the only part in the dizzy that moves is the rotor arm and its shaft,its possible the cap may move slightly but only a few mm either way not 10mm,fitting more and more parts and spending lots of money is an expensive way of illimination,as i keep saying do some basic test
you could check the resistance on each plug lead i think if you put the multimeter from one tip of rhe h/t lead to the other you should (i think) get between 1200 and 1300 ohms,whatever one reads they should all read anyway
examine the rotor arm for cracks and carbon build up also the dizzy cap contacts for carbon build up
make sure the leads go in the cap all the way and are a good firm fit
but like you say and i said earlier if it was ign surely it would do it all the time not just on warm up
have you tried it with cold start valve dissconnected

[Crasher]

Yes the distributor shaft has some backlash in the drive to the exhaust cam.

If there is oil in the hall sender plug, that can be the oil seal inside the distributor leaking but that leaves oil inside the distributor itself. It can also come from the seal around the base of the distributor and from a leaking cam cover gasket and even genuine ones leak, they are a pain.

If the problem is HT leakage, it will happen more often when it is damp.

If the distributor is brand new genuine, it would have a brand new genuine cap with a black plastic cover. Is the body of the distributor a matt finish or a bright turned finish?

[Crasher]

Plug lead resistance is 6KΩ.

On the air box, there is a metal diaphragm with a single vacuum hose going to it and a 2 wire electrical plug, disconnect this and see what happens.

[paramananthamd]

Ok, thanks guys.

I will try all this tonight, and test it out tomorrow morning.

[paramananthamd]

The Distributor has a matt finish

[Crasher]

That isn’t genuine, it is a recon unit.

[paramananthamd]

Alright i didnt know that. I just checked the leads again all they all seem to be fine. The leads are Quatum, and the ends that connect to the spark plugs are Beru. The spark plugs have the metal cap on the top of the screw part. IS this fine, or should these be removed.

I did remove one of the plug leads (one nearest to drivers side) and started the engine, and it sounds rough just like in the mornings... (How wierd... is this telling us anything)

I have unplugged the metal diaphragm plug, and it started alright, i will see what happens tomorrow morning, and will keep you guys posted.

Anyway, tomorrow after work i have got the car booked in at a local garage for them to take a look, and do a tune up. I will ask them to check the dizzy.
Any more checks you guys think i should ask them to do?

[paramananthamd]

Started the car this morning with the metal diaphragm unplugged, and still have the same problem.

[Crasher]

OK, now disconnect the two pin brown plug from the thermo time switch behind and below the side water outlet on the head, in the same area as the coolant temp sender you fitted. This may make it slightly more difficult to start but in this weather, maybe not!

[paramananthamd]

Ok will do, should i plug the metal diaphragm back in.

[paramananthamd]

Crasher,

So what are these tests telling me then?

[Crasher]

Yes, plug it back in. What these tests are doing is eliminating sensors that may be causing an over fuelling situation.

[paramananthamd]

OK guys, here is an update.

Left it at the garage on Thursday night, so they could have a look at it on Friday morning when it was cold.

The mechanic said that when he started it, it sounds like if its sort running on only 3 cylinders, anyway he did a tune up.
He checked the compression of all the cylinders and they are all fine.
The timing was out, it was at 2 degrees, he reset it to 6 degrees. The C/O was at 0.2, he reset it to 1.5.
The car now runs much much better.
I started up this morning, and the engine sounds nice, drove a few hundred meters and its idle ok, the revs do go down a bit when i come do a stop but rises back up. But then after after a few more hundred meters it doesn't do this any more. (it rained all last night and this morning)

I would say that the problem is more a less fixed, with this re-tuning. Do you guys think that the initial values of the timing and C/O would of caused my problem?

He also said that the fuel pump sounds a bit loud and it does buzz all the time. Is this a problem?

Cheers guys for all your help.

[paramananthamd]

Hi there, still have the same problem, not driven the car for a while now, as i have got pi**** of with it. Could fuel problems cause this problem my car is having.

[Crasher]

You say that the main fuel pump is whining. This can be due to a failed in tank lift pump which needs testing and if it is not working, it may have damaged the main pump so both will need changing. If the lift pump is working and the main pump noisy then the main pump will need changing which can be a trial when dealing with corroded fuel lines and pump retaining ring screws where the heads have completely rusted away.