Temporary Loss of Power at Motorway speeds

[BenjeMK5]

Hi guys,

New member and wondering if you can help me, I've read quite a few threads which seem to relate my problem but the remedies either don't apply to my vehicle or go straight over my head!

I've got a Golf Mk5 2.0 FSI '04 plate just done 57500 miles. It's had no modifications other than a K&N drop in air filter (not induction kit) which has been in 8 months without problem. Recently the car has been suffering a sudden and violent loss of power when travelling at 70-80mph for a sustained length of time. The car jerks as if I've suddenly let off the accelerator and begins to lose revs no matter what gear I'm in or how hard I press the accelerator pedal. After 5-20 seconds power returns and the car begins to accelerate and drive normally. The car has just been in for a full VW service and MOT and I've had no warning lights, before, during or after the fault occurs. I make the trip from Manchester to Sheffield once every two weeks (just over an hours drive) and would say it happens once or twice each journey, at cruising speed and under acceleration. I've had no problems in normal urban driving.

I've read on other threads that the problem maybe the Mass Airflow Sensor or it's connectors, which in theory would make sense. But as I'm a bit of an engine layman I wouldn't have a clue what a MAF looks like or where to find it!!! I'd really appreciate if someone could talk me through finding it and explaining how to give the connectors a clean. Other possibilities I read were:-

Turbo seal corrosion (don't think my petrol 2l fsi has a turbo)
Faulty ECU (don't even wanna go there yet!)
Damaged CAT converter or exhaust (main dealer and local garage haven't spotted anything on service or MOT)
Dirty or clogged fuel filter (I only ever use super unleaded and never let the tank run too low) however if the MAF clean/replace doesn't work this would be next on my list of possibilities

Sorry if this is repeating another thread, I just wanna do the most I can to iron out the problem before I shell out anymore money to VW service departments for them to tell me my car's fine. Please go easy on me as this is my first post and I'm far from being a mechanic!!!!!!

Thank you in advance for any help/advice you can give!!!

All the best

Ben

[StuPDi]

might sound daft, but i had this on my 1st ibiza all because i changed the brake light bulbs for LED clusters !!

it was throwing a fault code that suggested there were "no" brakelights therefore slowing the car down to a safer speed.

it was so annoying, and i only found it by a process of elimination.

sorry if i not much help. but if it has suddenly started, there must be a reason?

have you access to vag-com????

Stu

[BenjeMK5]

Cheers for the reply mate but other than the air filter I put in 8 months ago and the Parrot car kit I had installed 11 months ago I haven't upgraded/changed anything from the factory standard kit.

Good idea though, I know sometimes it is the daft things that cause these problems!

B

[Crasher]

And this fault leaves no fault codes?

[BenjeMK5]

Also I don't have vag-com as even if I could find the fault codes I wouldn't know what to do with them and don't know any good VW specialists in my area. Not had any warning lights either which is weird.

I've also read that problems with the EGR valve might cause this fault, but I'm guessing it's part of the exhaust system and would have no idea how to check it without taking into a garage.

B

[BenjeMK5]

VW service dept were told about the fault and said they found no fault codes that would relate and couldn't replicate the fault on a road test.

[Crasher]

Well from your description it sounds like a fuel delivery problem and that may not leave a code.

[BenjeMK5]

Clogged fuel filter maybe?

Are these not changed/inspected during a service?

[Crasher]

Possible but unlikely, worth trying though.

[BenjeMK5]

Hmmmm

Cheers, I'll move it up on my list of possible causes!

Any other ideas of things I should get checked if I can find a cheap mechanic who knows his way around a VW? You seem pretty convinced it's a fuel problem, anything else I can check?

Cheers

[Crasher]

I would like to know for sure there are no fault codes.

[BenjeMK5]

Yeah I know what you mean, it's hard to diagnose a problem without all the relevant info.

You know what VW dealerships are like, I told the guy at the service desk the problem when I booked it in for it's service but he didn't seem at all interested. Then when I went to pick the car up £195 later I asked if they'd found anything and he said "nothing relevant to the fault you described" he suggested I drive it now it'd been serviced as they'd road tested it without a problem. To be fair the car was running a lot sweeter after the service and on the last 2 weeks commute to work I hadn't had a problem, but then when I travelled for an extended period on the motorway again the fault reared it's ugly head!!!!!

Due to the dodgy hours entailed in my job it's a right pain to take it into the dealership, I think I'll give it another week or so to conduct my research and then go in prepared with a list of things for them to check so I'm not taking it in every other week.

I still think it's the MAF given what I've read elsewhere or given what you said a fuel delivery problem. Just wish there was something I could do to narrow the possibilities down before taking it back to VW. Don't suppose you know anyone with Vag-com in the Rochdale/Manchester area????

As always cheers for your help/advice

B

[SteveySteve]

Hi there,

I had a similar fault on my 1.9 TDi Golf, engine would suddenly violently surge then cut out, always at motorway speeds once the car had warmed up, although mine was usually when I was braking.

First few times it did it there was no warning lights, no fault codes, just cut out completely but would restart after around 1 minute.

In the end it turned out to be the "engine speed sensor" that was faulty, which only caused problems once it heats up. Anyway, there's another possible lead for you (if the FSI's have engine speed sensors?)

[BenjeMK5]

Cheers Steve

I'll add that to the list!!!

However the engine never cuts out, just idles as if it's in limp mode, but then seconds later the accelerator responds again and it's running perfectly. It does seem to only happen when warmed up though. Thanks anyway.

Volkswagen eh? Great cars.......rubbish sensors!!!!!!!!!!

B

[Crasher]

I haven’t had an AMM cause symptoms like that but there is always a first time. Isn’t Eshrules in the Manchester area?

[BenjeMK5]

Sorry, I'm probably being dim but what's an AMM???

I've only just got my head around MAF and EGR!!!!

I'll see if I can track Eshrules down then, cheers B

[Crasher]

AMM = Air Mass Meter

MAF = Mass Air Flow

AVM = Air Volume Meter

All the same thing although VAG don’t use the TLA MAF as far as I know.

[BenjeMK5]

Knew it'd be something simple!

Thanks for dumbing it down for me!

I've PM'd Eshrules so I'll see what he says.

I've got it in my head that its the AMM from reading posts on other sites which showed similar symptoms to those I'm having, but like you said I should really reserve judgement till I can get my fault codes read by someone who's actually interested in helping! There are 2 other dealerships in the local area so if all else fails I'll try one of those with my list of possibilities!

[Eshrules]

Hi Mate,

i've responded to your pm....

I can do a diagnostic scan for you for nothing and we can take it from there....

I'd have to probably agree with Crasher on this one, a MAF fault normally reduces performance quite considerably, but not in the fashion you've described. It is rare for a MAF fault to cause a complete loss of power, not impossible (of course) but very rare.

reply to my pm and we'll sort this out for you ;)

[BenjeMK5]

Hey guys,

Just to keep you all updated, Eshrules has very kindly offered to check my fault codes for me so we're working on co-ordinating our diaries to meet up.

Car is still running sweet as a nut on the urban commute to work, might take it out for an extended motorway drive to make it do the fault again before I see Eshrules. Do the fault codes come out in chronological order, are they date stamped?

Cheers B

[Crasher]

They are logged on a Golf five so you know when it happened.

[BenjeMK5]

Hey guys, bin a while so a bit of an update.

Still waiting to meet up with Eshrules for a fault code read.

Trip home from Sheffield to Manchester gave me a chance to test the fault today (as it happened 5 times in an 80min journey!)

Same symptoms as before, after travelling for over an hour at largely motorway speeds the car violently splutters, then returns to normal, then suddenly loses power for 10 - 20 secs then goes back to normal again. Today I was able to test it a bit and found that if I depressed the clutch and held down the throttle I could rev the engine (although very sluggishly) to exactly 3000 revs but no further. This leads me to believe it's not a physical fuel delivery problem like a clogged fuel filter etc.

I was wondering if this is what's known as "Limp Mode" and if it was "Limp Mode" shouldn't there be some kind of warning on the dash instrumentation or MFD to tell me the car's in "Limp Mode"??? (because I have no warning lights whatsoever). What are the common causes for the car to go into "Limp Mode" and will a fault code DEFINATELY be generated if the car enters Limp Mode?

It's looking like I'm gonna have to take it into the dealership as the problem's getting worse week by week and becoming dangerous. Just need to be armed with as much info as I can so that they won't fob me off again like last time and I can get to the bottom of the problem and get it sorted!

As ever many thanks in advance for any info or advice you can give me, even if it's just that I'm barking up the wrong tree!

All the best

B

[SteveySteve]

Any update on this at all?

[BenjeMK5]

Hiya,

No not yet unfortunately although the problem is becoming worse and now occuring at urban driving speeds making for very uncomfortable jerky driving!!!

Been away filming with the Army so not had chance to get it booked into the garage again. Will wait till next payday and see what they say. Thinking about telling them to do a diagnostic again and if they still find nothing just to go straight ahead and fit a new MAF/AAM or N75 valve (dunno what the N75 is but someone on another thread suggested I try it)

Will update you when I can

B

[smokey0123]

Your car hasn’t got an n75 I don’t think, I would try cleaning the wire inside the AMM with carb cleaner, the oil used on aftermarket air filters sometimes contaminates the AMM.

[Crasher]

benje, what is your engine code?

[BenjeMK5]

Hiya

Engine Code is AXW

Transmission Code is GQP

Could you tell me where to find the AMM and what it looks like so I can visually inspect it/clean it? I'm guessing it's on the pipe coming from the airbox but can't see anything obvious and my Haynes manual doesn't seem to show my engine configuration (2.0 fsi 110kw, airbox in lower left hand corner)

Cheers Ben

[Crasher]

No your car doesn’t have an N75 valve and cleaning the AMM is not a good idea in my opinion. Another fault code read is a good idea as a problem like this should show up as a code and I would expect to see a code relating to the inlet manifold flap unless it is fuel supply related such as a problem with the high pressure fuel pump.

[BenjeMK5]

Ok cheers for clearing the N75 thing up.

I'm guessing it's not a fuel supply issue as when the problem occurs the revs are limited to 3000 EXACTLY which suggests it's a "Limp Mode" problem but with no fault codes last time I took it VW and no fault lights on the dash or MFD I don't know what's causing it. I've had no luck trying to get a code read off Eshrules so far, so gonna wait until next payday and take it down to the dealership armed with the info I've managed to get on here.

As ever cheers for the advice

B

[Richardlkay]

Hi BenjeMK5

When you get your car booked in to the garage, get them to check the fuel injectors and the coil packs. I too have a 2.0 FSI GT (55 plate) and I've had the same problem as yourself since I got my car 2 months ago. It's been back in to the garage about 4 times and the last time they replaced 2 of the coils (as the other 2 had already been changed by VW Assist!!) and one of the fuel injectors. Since getting the car back, it's been fine.

Mine's on test with me till the end of the month and if it fails again....they're having it back!!

[BenjeMK5]

Hi Richard, cheers for your input.

Fuel Injectors and Coil packs eh??? This is all beginning to sound very expensive! The car was under warranty when I originally took it in to the garage in early May, when they told me they found nothing wrong. Now typically it's out of warranty and I can see this getting pricey!!! £160 for a new EGR valve fitted I can handle put fuel injectors and coil packs sound like they're gonna be cost me quite a lot!!!!

B

[BenjeMK5]

Hi Richard, cheers for your input.

Fuel Injectors and Coil packs eh??? This is all beginning to sound very expensive! The car was under warranty when I originally took it in to the garage in early May, when they told me they found nothing wrong. Now typically it's out of warranty and I can see this getting pricey!!! £160 for a new EGR valve fitted I can handle put fuel injectors and coil packs sound like they're gonna be cost me quite a lot!!!!

B

[Richardlkay]

Always the way isn't it??

As it's only just out of warranty, maybe it will be worth asking to see if they will pay for some of the work as a "good will" gesture. A long shot, I know but if you don't ask.....

[BenjeMK5]

Right time for an update!

After weeks of research and armed with all your ideas and suggestions I took my car in to Gilbert Lawton VW Manchester today. Sat down and told the guy at the service desk all the symptoms, how long it took for the fault to occur, what happened when the fault did occur etc etc. Unfortunately the advisor looked like he didn't wanna be there and responded to every piece of info I gave him with "the diagnostics will tell us what's wrong", he didn't instill me with much confidence! He asked me to sign the paper to say I'd pay the £47 for the diagnostics (£47!!! To plug a laptop in to save them time and work diagnosing the fault! I'm in the wrong job!)

Anyway I left it with them and tried not to be too pessimistic as I made my way back on my 45min walk back to work. Just before 5pm I got a call from the advisor to say that they'd completed the diagnostics and a 20min road test and found nothing wrong with the car and that there was no sign of any "misfire". I reiterated that if he'd listened to my explanation earlier in the day he'd know that I was talking about an intermittent "limp mode" and not a simple misfire and that the fault only develops after around 45mins of driving. He asked what I wanted to do and I told him "fix the car!" he didn't seem amused!

I told him to keep the car overnight and take it on an extended road test tomorrow. He explained I'd now be incurring more costs as it's taking them longer to find the fault than expected.

I'll let you know how i get on tomorrow. I'm gutted there were no fault codes generated as I know most VW mechanics can't find faults unless VAGCom tells them what to do. Feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall at the minute but I'll be damned if I'm gonna pay through the nose for them to tell me my car's fine when it's blatantly not, and quite dangerous to boot!

Back tomoz

B

[BenjeMK5]

Just had a call from the dealership they still can't find the fault and are asking me what I want them to do. They also keep calling it a misfire which is annoying me as from what you've read from this thread this fault seems more serious than that. They want me to "authorise further labour" but I'm loathed to do this as I don't want them charging me through the teeth just because they can investigate a fault properly.

Does anyone know of a fault that could cause these symptoms that WOULDN'T generate a fault code??? I've gotta head back to the dealership now and try to sort something out. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Cheers

B

[Crasher]

On a car of this age, to not generate a fault code with such a distinct fault is unusual and I sympathise with them as there isn’t much that is more frustrating than a customer’s car with a reported fault that won’t manifest itself and that hasn’t left a fault code. From what you describe my thoughts are fuel pump as this may not show as a code.

[BenjeMK5]

Crasher!

I was hoping you'd be online!!!

I'll ask them about the fuel pump. With it limiting the revs to exactly 3000 would that not be limp mode? And if it is do you think it could be the engine management system that is at fault, especially as it's not logging a fault???

How about fuel injectors or coil packs that have previously been mentioned?

Cheers B

[Crasher]

When I said fuel pump, I meant the head mounted high pressure unit as these are starting to act up. Injectors, doubt it, never changed any and coil packs don’t tend to act up like this and they would register a misfire code if it acted up at idle. As for ECU failure, I haven’t had that on a Golf 5 yet. PM me your reg number if you don’t mind, I think you have before but I have emptied the folders.

[BenjeMK5]

PM sent mate.

Cheers for looking into it, I know how hard it must be when you can't physically get your hands on it and test the car yourself. Just gutted coz I know without fault codes and an intermittent problem I'm pretty screwed unless the car just gives up altogether.

B

[BenjeMK5]

Popped into the dealership today to see how they were getting on, still no progress!

Service advisor refuses to entertain any of my suggestions taken from the advice given on this forum, he seems to think the only way to diagnose the problem is for the technician to experience the fault first hand and won't even let me talk to a mechanic first hand.

I've authorised another hours worth of labour to diagnose the fault, current running total is over £140 and they still can't fault the car. Has anybody had any experience getting labour costs reduced? I just don't see why I should pay £140 when they haven't diagnosed or fixed anything!!! If they hadn't fobbed me off previously it'd have still been covered by the warranty and I wouldn't be as angry about it!

Will keep you updated but I think if they still don't find the fault tomorrow I'm just gonna have to take it back and look at selling it.

B

[BenjeMK5]

Got a phone call this morning from the garage saying they'd test driven the car again today and still couldn't fault it. They had however stumbled upon something on the VW Technical Bulletin about a "Motorway Judder" on some Golfs which had ben rectified by new ECU software. They installed it and told me that I'd have to take it away and test it to see if it had worked. They charged me £95 in the end as apparently the software update only took 30mins.

So on the drive home I decided to go the long way round and give it a blast down the motorway. Now to be fair I did give it a good tonking as I wanted to get the engine warmed up as quickly as possible, and sure enough 20mins in I had the same powerloss problem!!! Not as violent this time but definately there, I pulled into the slow lane, depressed the clutch and jammed my foot to the floor on the accelelrator and again could only rev it to 3000 exactly. Put it back in gear, pumped the accelerator a couple of times and she suddenly came back to life again!

Gonna ring VW in the morning and tell them whatever they did (if they did anything) didn't work.

Think I've resigned myself to the fact that I bought a lemon, massive coolant leak, complete gearbox failure and now this all in the space of 12 months. I should've bought an Astra!

B

[BenjeMK5]

Day 5 of the VW dealership debarcle!!!

After calling Gilbert Lawton VW they convinced me to bring the car back in for one of their technicians to drive home on an extended road test to try to find the fault (free of charge). They rang today to say that they had finally managed to get the car to fault and after lots more testing and scratching their heads decided that it was the fuel pump. I asked if they meant the head mounted high pressure pump as Crasher had previously mentioned to which they replied that the VW bulletin mentioned both pumps could be at fault but to change the normal pump first and if that didn't rectify it they'd try the high pressure one.

Put on the spot and driving my company vehicle (non-handsfree) at the time I ok'd them to fit the fuel pump (£225) and re-test. I now wish I had argued the toss a little bit more really as I've now forked out £320 for work that still might not solve thr problem. If I get the car back and it's fixed then fair do's I'll take the hit to my credit card and be grateful my Golf's fixed. But if they turn around, shrug their shoulders and say "uh now we need to change the high pressure pump as well that'll cost you another £225" I'll hit the roof!!! Especially seeing as the first time I brought the car in and was fobbed off the car was still under warranty!!!!

As ever I'll let you know how I get on

B

[Richardlkay]

Hope it's sorted soon mate. I feel your pain.......I had similar issues with my car. I was lucky that it was all done under warranty though

[lanciamug]

If the fault was originally reported when the vehicle was in warrenty then it should definately still be covered (saving you a fortune!). It makes no sense to allow a dealer to 'fail' to find a problem until the warrenty expires then charge to fix. Put this to them strongly and threaten court action if they contest.

[BenjeMK5]

Update time

Had the fuel pump fitted and authorised them to take it on another test drive over night as I was working away. Picked up the car on Saturday morning after paying £225 with a £10 fuel charge because he had to fuel it up to test drive but still managed to leave me with no fuel to get home!

Took the car over to Sheffield on Sunday, a journey that would normally bring up the fault at least once. Managed to get there and back without a problem so I'm hoping it's fixed!!! I'm still not very confident as they weren't sure that the fuel pump was the problem, driving for over a 2 hours waiting for the slightest loss of power is pretty nerve racking so it's gonna take me a while to trust it again and be sure the problem is fixed.

Tried to ring the service advisor to let him know things seemed to be ok but he's off at the mo (probably steering clear incase it wasn't fixed!). Rang VW Approved Warranty and they said I don't have a leg to stand on claiming back from the warranty. I first reported the fault on 14/04/08 but the service advisor didn't log it on the system as he seemed convinced it was just a misfire and the service would sort it. Due to the nature of the fault it didn't reoccur until around 10/05/08 after another long stretch on the motorway. My warranty ran out 05/05/08. Then as I was away filming with the Army and pretty skint I didn't manage to get it booked back in until 23/06/08. Warranty guy said they give a 14day "grace period" after the warranty runs out when they can take claims into consideration but not 8 weeks.

I then rang the service manager who was "busy" at the time and the receptionist said he'd call me back.......he didn't. So I sent a polite but rather long e-mail explaining the situation to the service centre contact off the VW website this morning and received a voicemail message from the Service manager just after lunch saying that he had tried to call but had the wrong number (never been a problem when they rang me before!) he said he needed to speak to my service advisor who was off today but would ring me when he had investigated further.

I'm not gonna hold my breath as it has been a long time in between the first time it went in and it being fixed. Just can't help thinking if the guy had listened properly in the first place and not been so dismissive this would have been sorted under warranty. My own fault for not sticking to my guns I suppose but when your told something from a VW garage you tend to think they know what they're talking about, more fool me!!!!

I'll keep you posted

B

[Teflon]

I suggest that you get on to Trading Standards and wave the big stick at the dealer. I've also found VW UK to be remarkably helpful in sorting out problems with a dealer who had 6 goes to fix a problem for me.

At the very least you should be entirely in your rights to demand back all the money prior to the fuel pump replacement, since they failed to adequately diagnose a problem.

I find that the threat of a visit to the Small Claims Court often helps to move people along. It is a modest fixed fee and even if you lose they cannot claim back thier own costs.

[BenjeMK5]

After a week of stallin from the Aftersales Manager at Gilbert Lawton Manchester I finally got an e-mail reply at 18:30 on Friday evening, basically telling me everything I'd already been told by VW Approved Used Warranty as I'd already told him, and then ending the e-mail by telling me he'd be on holiday for the next two weeks. He'd blatantly left it till the last minute to contact me so he didn't have to deal with it again!

VW Customer care rang me to ask how many points out of 5 I'd give them and I told them ZERO! She asked why and I gave her an abbreviated version of the whole farce and asked if I could make a formal complaint, she told me to ring the customer careline direct and swiftly but politely ended the call! Spoke to a very polite girl at VW customer care who basically told me there was not much they could do apart from log the complaint on the system and a CC manager MIGHT ring me back as part of his investigation but probably wouldn't. Sick of the sound of my own voice I relented and said logging the complaint was good enough.

Then wrote a rather long reply to the Aftersales manager's e-mail highlighting every problem I've had with them in all of the 4 visits to their dealership and politely telling him he wouldn't be seeing myself, my car or any of my friends or families cars in his place again.

I'm not gonna take it to small claims as I really don't wanna spend anymore time arguing about this. I'm not gonna go back to that dealership, if any at all! And considering I still don't trust the car, any slight noise or smell or hesitation and my stomch goes over! I'm seriously considering getting rid and buyin something cheap, japanese and reliable!

I was one of VW's biggest fans, I've had a B reg Golf, an N and an X reg Polo and my current Golf but I'm pretty sure that'll be my last, gutted.

Cheers for all your comments and advice guys.

B

[Richardlkay]

Sorry to hear about the lack of progress Benje. :zx11::zx11:

[BenjeMK5]

Update..........Progress has been made!!!!!!!!!

It's been 2 weeks since Lynn at VW Customer Care said she'd "call me back tomorrow". So having some time on my hands (for a change!) today I put in another call. After 5mins on the phone I was told by the Customer Advisor that Lynn was not available to talk right now as she was just about to leave on her break (great customer care!). The advisor asked what I was ringing for as my "good will" payment had been approved. I explained to her that I was unaware of any good will payment, so rather surprised she told me they'd authorised my retailer to refund 80% of the charge for the repair, 40% from the retailer and 40% from VW. Releived that after 3 months of complaining I'd finally made head way, I asked when I could expect my cheque, she told me I'd have to contact my retailer directly. I explained that the reason I'd got VW CC involved was because my retailer was so crap and failed to communicate with me on numerous occasions. She insisted I had to ring them ASAP if I wanted the money.

Put in a call to Steve Keenan Aftersales Manager at Gilbert Lawton Manchester who surprise surprise was unavailable to take my call. After an hour or so he did call me back and told me that of the £315 I paid in total, £95 was for diagnostics and fault finding which wouldn't be taken into consideration, which I kind of expected, which left £220 for the supply and fitting of the fuel pump. He then told me he'd stick a cheque for £100 in the post..........I swiftly explained to him that £100 was NOT 80% of £220, in fact it wasn't even 50%!!!!!! He squirmed a little and tried to explain that VW worked out the payment based on their warranty rates and parts at cost to them. I explained that I wasn't paying warranty or "cost" rates and that if I'm told I'm gonna get 80% back I expect 80% of what I've paid, not some made up figure from them!!!! He relented slightly and said he'd try to ring Lynn back and see if they would increase the figure and promised to ring me back later.

3 hours later Steve called back to say Lynn and VW CC wouldn't budge on the fictional 80% figure, I took a deep breath and was about to unleash a torrent of abuse when he butted in and said that he understood how frustrated I must have been with the whole situation and that it had gone on for far too long (no argument from me on that one!!!) and so if I would be happy to accept it he would authorise a cheque for £179.95 (which is actually £3.95 more than 80%!!!!!) and pop it in the post for me ASAP. He and VW would argue the toss between themselves. Relieved that the end was in sight and quite glad that I'd managed to recoup over half of the full amount I paid I accepted!

All I've gotta do now is wait for the cheque to turn up and cash it, surely they can't get that wrong............................................. ......................................can they???

B

[Crasher]

2L FSI pressure pump failure is becoming a common issue for me just in the last two weeks.

[BenjeMK5]

Hiya Crasher

After all their excuses and reasons why the dealership technicians said they couldn't find the fault I explained to them that you'd been able to narrow down the fault to either one of the fuel pumps without ever meeting me or even seeing my car. The difference was that you actually listened to the symptoms I described and actually wanted to find out what the problem was. To that they had no answer, surprise surprise!!!

If only all mechanics were like you Crasher!!!!

Cheers for all your help and advice, it's just a shame none of them ever listened!

B

[TimmyTim]

Hiya Crasher

After all their excuses and reasons why the dealership technicians said they couldn't find the fault I explained to them that you'd been able to narrow down the fault to either one of the fuel pumps without ever meeting me or even seeing my car. The difference was that you actually listened to the symptoms I described and actually wanted to find out what the problem was. To that they had no answer, surprise surprise!!!

If only all mechanics were like you Crasher!!!!

Cheers for all your help and advice, it's just a shame none of them ever listened!

B


I've just read the whole 6 page thread on here! What a bloody nightmare! :zx11: I hope that the cheque comes and you get no more problems with the car...

[BenjeMK5]

Thanks Tim!

I'm glad you sympathise with my pain, at times I thought I was going mad and it was me at fault somehow, just glad the whole thing's over with now (finger's crossed!!!).

Since I bought the car in May 2007 I've had such bad luck;

3 days before I was supposed to part-ex my old X reg Polo 16V for the car an uninsured driver ran into the side of it. Had to quickly sweet talk a local dealer into giving me £500 less than the original part-ex in cash just so that I could complete the deal!

Lakeside Volkswagen Stoke where I bought the car from lost the log book so I couldn't drive it away once I'd paid for it as it wasn't taxed so they gave me a Fox courtesy car for a week while they sorted it out.

Lakeside didn't register the car as sold on their system which caused havoc with the warranty company when the car went in for repair.

10 days after I got the car had to call out VW Roadside assistance after massive coolant loss. Car was off the road 3 days because the dealership kept ordering the wrong part (fixed under warranty)

6 months later had to have £2500 worth of new gearbox fitted after the synch-mesh gave up on the motorway on me, thankfully also covered by warranty but car was off the road 10 days while they ordered the gearbox from Germany.

And then 11 months after purchasing the vehicle this debarcle descends upon me and has taken over 3 months of phone calls, e-mails, and messages on this forum to sort out.

I think in a previous life I must've smashed up a mirror factory or summat! I'm hoping my bad luck has run out. I've been looking at selling the car but I'll lose money on it and the only cars I would want instead would cost me more money that I cannot afford. It's been a month since the repair and I've slowly started to trust the car again. I just hope she doesn't do anything to break that trust!

Cheers for all your comments!

B

[Crasher]

How about this for a nightmare. You may have seen the posts on here about a Golf GTI TDI PD 150 that was driving its new owner mad (he got from Lancaster to Manchester after buying it and that was it). Long story short, the car was revered to me and I had to fit a new head so I did the right thing and fitted a genuine VAG head complete with injectors, £2.5K worth alone plus all the labour, a new piston, a new turbo and all the necessary fasters and gaskets-everything genuine including two flushes with Quantum PD and a final fill with Longlife III. It started on the button and ran beautifully but when I drove it threw up two injector fault codes constantly and all the exhaustive tests I did over two full days pointed to two faulty injectors and possible a third. As the head was genuine I had to pass it over to my local VW dealer for warranty work. They didn’t like the chipped ECU (probably the reason the turbo exploded in the first place but another story) and wanted to replace it at just under £1K and I told them where to go. I had another ECU cloned and I fitted that and it did reduce the over fuelling but it still didn’t sound right. Before I could take the car away I had to pay them for the work they had done!!!! I drove the car back to work and I knew it wasn’t right so scanned it and it showed injectors 2 and 4 to be faulty, number 3 to be out of spec and number 1 OK. I went straight back and told them, “it needs at least two injectors, probably a full matched set”. Two weeks later they finally gave in and tried one new injector, moving it, around and came to the outstanding conclusion that “the injectors are faulty, we will order a set”…**** me I thought, I would never have guessed that! After two attempts at ordering the injectors (they kept forgetting) the new ones arrived, were fitted and it is now perfect, I hope-I haven’t got it back yet. Between VAG DE and VAG UK, they have put me and the owner through nearly three weeks of hell. I spend over 10K a month with them (so more than a new fully loaded Phaeton costs each year) and they treat me like I am something unpleasant they have stepped in, except for the chaps (and chapesses) at my local TPS who are brilliant.

[BenjeMK5]

I don't know how they can afford to be so ignorant and so ***** at the same time! To me they're not trained mechanics anymore just "technicians" who plug parts in and out of vehicles on the whim of whatever VAGCom tells them to do. To boot everything that has gone wrong on my vehicle has been faulty factory fitted genuine VAG parts, on a 4 year old car whatever happened to German reliability?

[TimmyTim]

How about this for a nightmare. You may have seen the posts on here about a Golf GTI TDI PD 150 that was driving its new owner mad (he got from Lancaster to Manchester after buying it and that was it). Long story short, the car was revered to me and I had to fit a new head so I did the right thing and fitted a genuine VAG head complete with injectors, £2.5K worth alone plus all the labour, a new piston, a new turbo and all the necessary fasters and gaskets-everything genuine including two flushes with Quantum PD and a final fill with Longlife III. It started on the button and ran beautifully but when I drove it threw up two injector fault codes constantly and all the exhaustive tests I did over two full days pointed to two faulty injectors and possible a third. As the head was genuine I had to pass it over to my local VW dealer for warranty work. They didn’t like the chipped ECU (probably the reason the turbo exploded in the first place but another story) and wanted to replace it at just under £1K and I told them where to go. I had another ECU cloned and I fitted that and it did reduce the over fuelling but it still didn’t sound right. Before I could take the car away I had to pay them for the work they had done!!!! I drove the car back to work and I knew it wasn’t right so scanned it and it showed injectors 2 and 4 to be faulty, number 3 to be out of spec and number 1 OK. I went straight back and told them, “it needs at least two injectors, probably a full matched set”. Two weeks later they finally gave in and tried one new injector, moving it, around and came to the outstanding conclusion that “the injectors are faulty, we will order a set”…**** me I thought, I would never have guessed that! After two attempts at ordering the injectors (they kept forgetting) the new ones arrived, were fitted and it is now perfect, I hope-I haven’t got it back yet. Between VAG DE and VAG UK, they have put me and the owner through nearly three weeks of hell. I spend over 10K a month with them (so more than a new fully loaded Phaeton costs each year) and they treat me like I am something unpleasant they have stepped in, except for the chaps (and chapesses) at my local TPS who are brilliant.

If I was spending as much money as that per month there I'd vote with my feet and use another dealer for my parts!...

:aargh4:

[TimmyTim]

Thanks Tim!

I'm glad you sympathise with my pain, at times I thought I was going mad and it was me at fault somehow, just glad the whole thing's over with now (finger's crossed!!!).

Since I bought the car in May 2007 I've had such bad luck;

3 days before I was supposed to part-ex my old X reg Polo 16V for the car an uninsured driver ran into the side of it. Had to quickly sweet talk a local dealer into giving me £500 less than the original part-ex in cash just so that I could complete the deal!

Lakeside Volkswagen Stoke where I bought the car from lost the log book so I couldn't drive it away once I'd paid for it as it wasn't taxed so they gave me a Fox courtesy car for a week while they sorted it out.

Lakeside didn't register the car as sold on their system which caused havoc with the warranty company when the car went in for repair.

10 days after I got the car had to call out VW Roadside assistance after massive coolant loss. Car was off the road 3 days because the dealership kept ordering the wrong part (fixed under warranty)

6 months later had to have £2500 worth of new gearbox fitted after the synch-mesh gave up on the motorway on me, thankfully also covered by warranty but car was off the road 10 days while they ordered the gearbox from Germany.

And then 11 months after purchasing the vehicle this debarcle descends upon me and has taken over 3 months of phone calls, e-mails, and messages on this forum to sort out.

I think in a previous life I must've smashed up a mirror factory or summat! I'm hoping my bad luck has run out. I've been looking at selling the car but I'll lose money on it and the only cars I would want instead would cost me more money that I cannot afford. It's been a month since the repair and I've slowly started to trust the car again. I just hope she doesn't do anything to break that trust!

Cheers for all your comments!

B

It sounds like you've had a right doing mate! You just never know if you've bought a "friday" afternoon car do you?

I know what Lakeside are like as it's just down the road from me. I took my Polo in there once! never again... They said it had all these things wrong with it and it wouldn't pass an MOT! So I took it for one and guess what? It passed without the £700 worth of work that they said it needed! And just to make sure I took it to another MOT place and let them have a look at it! They said it was fine too!!!


Makes me wanna crack heads sometimes! I don't mind paying! But I hate being ripped off...

Hope all is good with the motor now and you can enjoy it :approve:

[Richardlkay]

Glad to hear all is well now Benje. Just hope it lasts. Mine's been running OK for a while now, but I'm still unsure. Possibly PX'ing mine in soon. Just haven't begun to love it.

[BenjeMK5]

Finally got my cheque for £179.96 from VW Gilbert Lawton, paid in the next day so that sorts out half the total of all the repairs/diagnostics.

However I went out to check the coolant, screenwash and oil levels in the car today, pulled the bonnet release lever and it broke off in my hand!!!!!!

Car is now on Autotrader..........

:-(

B

[Richardlkay]

Sorry to hear that Benje :(

My Mk5 has also gone...px'd for a BMW 3 series saloon.

Won't be going back to VW again!!

[benjy]

"Déjà vu?!"

Benje/Crasher,

I have an 04 2.0 FSi and coming back from Nottingham today it started losing power, could only rev to 3000 etc. both on the motorway and around town. Having read the threads it looks like I have an identical problem and I can only thankyou for taking time to diagnose it and post your findings on this forum so myself and others do not also have to go through the same expensive and stressful process.

Since buying the car in December the car has had no end of faults and I have lost total confidence in it. These have included a coolant leak with fan failure (in the first week) and even more bizarre a broken bonnet release - common faults with 2.0 FSi perhaps? What worries me the most is that I have had 3 out of 4 of your faults - the question is should I try and sell it before the gearbox goes as I simply won't be able to afford to replace it.

This is my first VW and it has nearly claimed the shirt from my back. The irony is I p-exed my old 106 for the golf which had provided me with completely reliable and trouble free motoring for 5 years!!

All the best,

Ben

[BenjeMK5]

Hi Ben,

Wow that is deja vu, even our names are the same lol! Sorry to hear you've endured the same misfortune as me with your motor, i thought it was just me and that i was cursed or summat!

Yep your loss of power sounds exactly like my fault, if VAGCom shows up no fault codes then have the fuel unit replaced, that is if you can get your garage to actually listen to you!

As for the gearbox issue I couldn't tell you really. I've not heard of many problems on here with the manual six speed box apart from the "crunchiness" on some gear changes brought on by the gearbox oil not circulating properly in the first 10mins or so of driving. Some back street garages put something called "Slick 50" an oil additive in with the gearbox oil to solve the issue however this backfired causing a lot of wear on the box and causing them to prematurely fail (VW garages changed the oil to a full synthetic which seemed to help). Now I don't know whether that's what happened with my old box or if the previous owner was the "if you can't find it grind it" type on his gearchanges. All I know is I've had the car 14 months and it's caused be nothing but time, money, heartache and embarrassment. It's a lovely car to drive (when it works!) and definately looks the part, but like you (it seems) I've lost all confidence in it and am not prepared to spend anymore time or money on it. For a VW I bought for £10k just over a year ago I shouldn't have had this many problems. I've had a B Reg Golf, N & X Reg Polos, and my Dad drives a T reg Passat, all of which have served us well. Just seems that the MK5 is a bad car and that VW cut too many corners this time.

Hope you get your sorted soon Ben, btw fuel unit should cost about £215 fitted by a VW dealership.

All the best

B

[adz6284]

I recently bought a mk5 04 plate 2.0 GT FSi and have experienced the same power loss problem on the motorway. On my way up the M6 to manchester every time i reached 80 mph it started to judder and shake and then cut out until about 60 mph then i could accelerate again.


Thanks for the advise posted on this forum.

Will have to get the fuel unit replaced ASAP.


Thanks.

Adam

[benjy]

Hi Adam,

It went into the dealer on Monday and the fuel pump did fault on the VAGcom. So they replaced the unit (£270) and four days later so far so good. Good luck with yours!

Cheers,

Ben

[mikejr]

Hello,

As this is a bit of a long thread - can someone please confirm which fuel unit needs replacing (there is a reference to there being two) ?

I have a 2.0 FSi Touran and have exactly the same issue - cuts out at 3000rpm.

What are the likely costs (parts and labour) from an independent to sort this ?

Tks,

Mikejr - Notts

[BenjeMK5]

Hi Mike,

The thread is so long so that you can compare mine and others fault finding to your own as there are many issues that can show the same symptoms; ECU problems, faulty turbo, EGR valve etc etc. I would recommend you read it all thoroughly as Crasher's advice is second to none.

As for the fuel pump, on my vehicle it was the fuel unit which pumps the fuel from the tank into the engine bay and NOT the high pressure pump on the engine head which sprays it into the engine. But as is mentioned in the thread, the Volkswagen Technical bulletin stated the fault could have been produced by either pump, it was just pot luck that they found the culprit first time.

No idea about indie prices but the fuel unit alone from VW cost around £110 ex VAT. Good luck with it anyway.

B

[Crasher]

It caught me out the other day, I checked and measured everything and I was convinced it was the head pump this time, wrong-tank pump! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_200v.gif

[WILLIAMG]

I now have my VW 1.4FSI in local repair specialist for major power loss . This has continued even following replacment of fuel sensors "quieries" that came up on the "scanner". Two months later -Vehicle now totally undriveable--and tomorrow a fuel pressure test will be applied-and we are also considering replacing fuel filter(s) ...even the tank.

Lets see what the morrow rings--because if all is still wo and doom,
then I will be writing this car's death certificate --at 32000 miles.

You have my sympathy--a total waste of money and time and never never never will I trust a VW again.

[alison29]

Hi - did you get this sorted? I too have a VW 1.4 FSI with major power loss. There must be something we can do. Did you try contacting VW Golf? When I spoke to them they said they need customers to report such problems so they can know about them. Ring them and get a reference number and ask the dealer to pass on any diagnostic reports to Milton Keynes. It's worth a try even if it's like banging your head on a brick wall, you don't get anywhere unless you try.

[WILLIAMG]

In my instance, this entailed several visits to a VW --so called specialist--who kept saying that "fuel sensors" were faulty --thus £300 of repairs followed.
Following a subsequent nr complete failure --and total frustration-Wayside VW confirmed and diagnosed a good old fashioned solid FUEL PUMP failure--which cost a further £280. and a week off the road.I patched this up-had the job done and traded in for the vehicle for a palrty sum--but massive peace of mind.

The VW 1.4 FSI is a truly awful car. It only takes "super unleaded", fell apart inside with all the plastic bits falling off, a radio speaker "gone", suspension rattles after 30k miles, plus gear knob came away for no undue reason. Drove like a dead sheep too!

Yes--I forgot- a fuel sensors also failed --two days after delivery--and dealership accused me of not putting right grade of petrol in--and said that " all FSI's -1.4's-should NOT be filled with 95 unleaded"(but no sign of this in log book or via salesman).

I can honestly say--this was the worst car I have ever EVER DRIVEN...

Glad to see that it is not made anymore....

Sorry to be depressing. The trouble with a fault such as fuel--is that mechanics keep putting vehicles through the diagnostic check which just bring up symptoms --not cures.

The final FUEL PUMP diagnosis initialy came from an experienced mechanic colleague who said he would rather start with the simple "blindingly obvious things" rather than "**** around with the diagnostic machine". He was right . A VW dealership then took up the cause--but I have no idea whether they informed their HQ if this public relations disaster

[Duncster89]

Hi everyone, after reading this thread it has become very clear the problem on my car is the rear fuel pump.

I have suffered all the same problems as all of you on my Audi A3 2.0FSI. Does anyone have any idea what it is like replacing the fuel pump as i fancy my chances of doing it myself, also what is the best way to access the pump?

The advice in this tread is second to none and id like to thank you all in advance for your help. :beerchug:

If it's any concelation to you all Audi are just as useless as VW with helping me out except they try to charge £75 for a dignostic check. I was also quoted by a "Audi independant specialist" £1100 to replace both fuel pumps!

Regards, Kyle

[Crasher]

The pump is in the tank, easy to get at but remember the high fire risk and make sure the tank is low, putting your arm into a full tank is not nice (flippin cold!) and too high and it can pour out when you take the top off the tank.

[Duncster89]

Just to double check it is an electric pump isn't it whilst ringing round someone mentioned an oil driven pump?
C

[Crasher]

Oil driven????? Who you been talking too! The one on the head is oil lubricated and engine driven.

[Duncster89]

He was an idiot! Thanks for the help really appreciate it

[cuprajake]

so would you guys say buying a 2.0 gt fsi is a bad idea?

im looking at one with fsh 94k, seems fine, but never went on the motorway

cheers jake

[Duncster89]

Apart from the fuel pump problem i didnt have any issues with my A3 FSI in the 6 months i had it. Seemed a good solid car to me, however, i only did motorway miles from 54k up to 68k.

Hope this helps,

Kyle

[lanciamug]

I've had my Golf for 4.5 years and the only other problem I've had is the coil pack giving up the ghost under warrenty.

[m12oby]

That happened to me on the motorway in my 04 2.0 fsi. It turned out to be a knackered coil. As the local indi garage told me - 'a common problem in all the 2.0 FSi engines (VW, audi etc).

Car hasn't done it since (touch wood)......

[vwcabriolet1971]

This sounds very like a turbo waste gate valve/actuator problem . If the actuator is partially seized and the manifold pressure is allowed to rise above the max.threshold limit ( because the actuator movement is limited & valve cannot dump any excess pressure), the engine ECU will reduce power to the "limp home mode". This usually happens at times of maximum boost i.e. accelerating uphill at high speed (motorway ?).

My wife's Polo Sport ( 1.9TDI P.D. engine) suffers from this problem . It drives O.K. around town and for short periods of high boost but will shut down on long motorway hills whilst trying to maintain 80+ mph . Turning the ignition off then on will re-set the ECU and normal service will be resumed untill the next long hill.

This ignition "re-set" is a lot cheaper than a new turbo ( incl. actuator & exhaust manifold) ! -- £1100 + approx £200 labour at VW rates . I am investigating a replacement actuator with a larger vacuum diaphram to cure this problem .
It sometimes pays to "exercise" the dump valve actuator reasonably often to prevent any problems of this nature ( watch your rear view mirror & cameras ! ) . I never had this problem with my MK4 110bhp golf - it might have something to do with my size 11 's & 500 miles per week to work !

[vwcabriolet1971]

This sounds very like a turbo waste gate valve/actuator problem . If the actuator is partially seized and the manifold pressure is allowed to rise above the max.threshold limit ( because the actuator movement is limited & valve cannot dump any excess pressure), the engine ECU will reduce power to the "limp home mode". This usually happens at times of maximum boost i.e. accelerating uphill at high speed (motorway ?).

My wife's Polo Sport ( 1.9TDI P.D. engine) suffers from this problem . It drives O.K. around town and for short periods of high boost but will shut down on long motorway hills whilst trying to maintain 80+ mph . Turning the ignition off then on will re-set the ECU and normal service will be resumed untill the next long hill.

This ignition "re-set" is a lot cheaper than a new turbo ( incl. actuator & exhaust manifold) ! -- £1100 + approx £200 labour at VW rates . I am investigating a replacement actuator with a larger vacuum diaphram to cure this problem .
It sometimes pays to "exercise" the dump valve actuator reasonably often to prevent any problems of this nature ( watch your rear view mirror & cameras ! ) . I never had this problem with my MK4 110bhp golf - it might have something to do with my size 11 's & 500 miles per week to work !

[vwcabriolet1971]

Please disregard my previous post . I thought vehicle in question was a diesel TDI as symptoms were so similar .

[dude_dal]

Hi,

I experienced the same problem on my 2008 Golf Bluemotion 1.9TDi - loss of all power for a few seconds before it kicked in again, firstly on the motorway a few times then started occurring at lower speeds. It felt as though the loss of power occurred when I put my foot down on the accelerator. On the third day of driving with this issue the engine management came on, and on then went off after 3 days (including a weekend where it was not driven).

Took it to the VW garage assuming they would know best, but turns out you don't even see the face of a mechanic, i.e. someone who knows what they are talking about. Described the symptoms and they just said they will fix whatever is stored as fault code in ECU, without mentioning any of the possible fixes mentioned in these forums. £63 for a diagnostic check by the way.

Got a call to say ECU gives fault code g450,which is a DPF sensor. £167 to replace, so got them to do that and the car appears to be okay since, although I've only drive about 40 miles since.

I would agree that this lack of power symptom appears to be a "limp mode", i.e. the car is limiting itself because it knows something is wrong and doesn't want to damage itself further, however, if this is the case I'm astonished that not a single "VW professional" knows about it. I do not understand how 1 symptom can be caused by so many different problems on a car.

Quick Google shows that the sensor can be bought for £35, and I'm sure it can't be a difficult part to replace.

Anyway, add that to the list of potential faults with a temporary loss of power!

Additional notes: To anyone wanting to replace the part themselves it appears you need to go through a sensor adaptation process. The following site will help you through this if you have VCDS: G450 sensor adaption using VCDS - Diagnostics & VCDS - BRISKODA.net - The Skoda Forum and Community (http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/222633-g450-sensor-adaption-using-vcds/)

[Crasher]

The car that this thread is about is a petrol engined car and does not have a DPF or pressure sensor so talking about a TDI is not relevant to this thread.

I do understand your point about the faceless mechanic but apparently the customer wants this posh approach with us grease monkeys locked up out back so not as to spoil the ambience. Try an independently owned VAG specialist if you want to talk to the mechanic face to face.

G450 is not a fault code, it is an SDC or Service Diagnose Code identification for a component.

The lack of power in your case is designed to prevent the DPF exceeding around 850 degrees centigrade and so setting fire to the car…

The sensor (old part number 1J0 973 703) is part number 076 906 051 A and costs around £54 from VW including VAT and I can’t find any ont tinterweb cheaper….

They are easy to fit but not to calibrate, even with a registered version of VAG-COM/VCDS it is a struggle to calibrate them so we use the VAG software.

Your comment “I'm astonished that not a single "VW professional" knows about it” is wrong, we fit a lot sometimes two a week.

[jaidank]

I have been living with this power loss for 6 months now.
New G247 (fuel rail pressure/trust sensor) fitted. No improvement.
New High pressure fuel pump fitted last week. Actually got worse; car cuts out completely (10 times in 25 miles); ignition cycle clears prob for minutes only.
I now have some graphs from VAG COM (thanks Kite!). They show fuel rail pressure dropping to zero (red; tank pump pressure in blue);
but what else do I have to replace?:
17487
I also have a plot of fuel rail demand, actual and valve opening (this was a different test run):
17488
Any advice greatly appreciated; we have a long trip planned for next Monday; looking unlikely now :-(
Aidan

[Crasher]

Sounds to me like the common problem of the in tank lift pump failing.

[kite]

Sounds to me like the common problem of the in tank lift pump failing.

Are there MVB 's we could Check to confirm the in tank pump

follow me on twitter...kiteaudi...

[Crasher]

Yes, the fuel pressure MVB, don't know the numbers off the top of my head. If I get an FSI doing this, I replace the lift pump first to see what happens.

[XenonX]

Hi
Im dealing with power loss on my a6 2.5 tdi AKE too. I took turbo off, cleaned it (wasnt clogged that much)and l found leaking hose from air box (where LMM is) to turbo intake. Under clamp there are few holes. Can that be the couse for power and bit noisy turbo? Thanks and sorry for bad english:)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[jaidank]

Sounds to me like the common problem of the in tank lift pump failing.

Thanks for your advice and Kite's diagnostics. We replaced the tank lift pump this day last week and have since
driven to the west of Ireland without a recurrence of the problem. Overtook a truck on a narrow road in Ireland;
could not have done that with the old problem.
Cheers, Aidan

[kite]

Great to see its fixed Aiden...

[Crasher]

Im dealing with power loss on my a6 2.5 tdi AKE too

Again this post is about a petrol engine, if you have an issue with a different type of car, please start a new thread.

[XenonX]

Sorry, my problem solved: )

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