power cut out 110 tdi

[diego666]

Hi,

curious if anyone has been through/sorted this issue.

I had the usual inconsistent idle for some time; one day i notice the motor 'hiccupping' as i drive with around half throttle.

After about a week this got worse and worse, so that it was really jerking the car violently if driven over 20 minutes and then would die and not re-start. Odd thing was that after waiting 30 min it would start fine, idle fine, drive ok for 15 min before the power would begin violently cutting out again.

I've replaced most vacuum lines, checked the egr-ok, replaced the diesel filter, tried driving with the fuel filler cap loose in case it was vacuum in the fuel tank, cleaned the intake manifold...no difference.

It will, however, idle fine for at least an hour and a half. Also it seems to be 'missing', like it's running on 3 cilinders; don't know if that is related or not.

Could it simply be bad fuel or a dirty tank/clogged fuel line? Air in the injection somehow, clogged exhaust...?

All suggestions are appreciated

TIA, Diego

[junglejim]

Hi.

Did you manage to get to the bottom of this fault? I have a Galaxy with the 115ps engine and it has exactly the same fault. I've looked at most of things that you have and now I'm banging my head against the wall.

I cahnged the filter yesterday and started it up. It fired ok and I left it ticking over for about 45mins. It was up to full temp and reved up ok so I took it for a run. I got about 1/4 mile up the road with no problems and it cut out. I bumped it down the hill and got it started but it misfired badly and cut out again. I letf it over night and fetched it back. It started fine and drove about a mile without any problems. I got home and turned it of an on 2 or 3 times without a proble. I've not tried it since and daren't take it for a run.

Any ideas?

[Crasher]

You need to get a fault code read done to see if any codes are stored. If there are non, the first part to change is the main ECU relay.

[junglejim]

Is this the 109 relay. I've read about that on the forum and it appears to suggest that the glow plug light doesn't come on when there is a fault with it. All the lights on the dash work as normal. Could this relay cause a problem and the glow plug light still come on?

[Crasher]

Yes this is the 109 relay, 1J0 906 381 A (£13.17 from VW) and is located at position 22 on the 8 position relay carrier under the dash which is basically the lower row, third from the left, or right for that matter, and has the number 109 printed on top. These relays can cause your symptoms so change this first. I have no idea of the F0R* part number for price for this part.

[junglejim]

Cheers, I'll give it go. Its my only car, so I need to get it fixed. I'm in danger of getting fit with all the walking I've done since it broke down! Another walk to hillsborough and back shouldn't kill me though - I hope:-)

[junglejim]

I tend to go to Eurocar parts when I need anything. They don't generally do Fords so I quote VW part numbers and get the right part. If its dealer part only, I'll go to the VW agent - I trust them more than the Ford agents:-)

[diego666]

Hey folks,

thanks for the replies, inputs and questions.

Elsewhere on this forum is a long thread addressing this issue and many of its causes and attempted fixes.

I recommend reading through 'Audi 80 tdi juddering bucking jerking' it's around 14 pages now with alot of ideas that seem to help.

In the meantime what i have learned from that thread is the vehicle speed sensor (VSS) located in the instrument cluster (IC) sends a corrupted signal to the ecu that is in conflict with the fueling signal from the number 3 injector sensor. Unplugging the fuse for the IC, slot 18 for me, helps the situation significantly but not entirely. Problems with doing this are: gauges dont work and eventually it will resort to 'limp' mode with the 'check engine' light illuminated. The better fix here is to cut the blue/white wire in-behind the IC, as it goes directly to the VSS from the relay array and doesn't affect the gauges.

Also, as stated in an earlier response, the 109 relay can be a culprit due to it's powering of the ecu: everything, but my guess is that would trigger more issues-??

In any case, that thread can explain better than i can here.

srecno!

d

[junglejim]

Thanks for that D. I did come across that earlier today but didn't read it fully. I understand my engine is a PD engine and wondered if mine would be different. I'll have a good read of it and see if there is anything I can try. I'm now fairly convinced that it is more electrical based than a fuel blockage or delivery problem(pump or the like).

Did you manage to resolve your fault by doing what the thread advises?

[junglejim]

I've managed to find the time to remove the 109 relay and its grey - which I understand is the new version. Has anyone suffered any problems with this one?

[Crasher]

Yes.

[junglejim]

finally got round to changing the relay - for what good it did. It started ok and sounded good, so I drove it about 75yards and it cut out dead. Just as if someone had turned off the ignition. It started up after about 5 minutes and I drove it about 5 feet before it cut out again!

There are no flashing warning lights or anything to indicate there is a problem.

Any idea what to do next?

[Crasher]

A fault code read.

[malakoffone]

You need to get a fault code read done to see if any codes are stored. If there are non, the first part to change is the main ECU relay.
Hi. This is my first posting so i am not sure if i am doing it right. I have a 2002 100bhp 1.9tdi Passat that is showing similar symptoms. It will run ok but suddenly it will stop and will only restart with the my foot to the floor and the engine turning on the ignition like an old fashioned diesel engine. i also experience irregular tick over. The fault comes up on the diagnostic as intermittent fault no 3 cylinder. Also data bus drive. Any clue?

[Crasher]

What was the fault code number?

[diego666]

Hey junglejim and malakoff,

Could be the same for both of you. I need to experiment with this as well- the ecu gets fueling signal from the number 3 injector sensor and the vehicle speed sensor (which often has issues-why we cut its wire behind the instr cluster), and maybe from a sensor inside the diesel pump too-anyone know off-hand? If the fault showed the 3rd injector sensor then try replacing it with a good sensor. I should be more motivated to do this myself too, but rarely need my car, so it's slow progress.

Otherwise, JJim, after it has died, sat and restarted, does it idle ok-just run erratically under acceleration or is your idle bad (in neutral or with the clutch floored) also after this point is reached/ engine is warm?

d

[malakoffone]

:1zhelp: I have just had my local garage mechanic round with his diagnostic machine. We ran a diagnostic which produced (no codes read) The car started on the button after the heater plug light went out. After about 5 minutes of normal tick over it then started to missfire, this seems to coincide with the thermostat opening, one blip of the throttle then saw the revs die to nothing and then cut out. to restart the car we had to turn the key with the throttle to the floor but on starting the revs drop and die. We then ran the diagnostic which again showed (no codes read). Also a strong smell of diesel.:1zhelp: pleeeze

[junglejim]

Hey junglejim and malakoff,

Could be the same for both of you. I need to experiment with this as well- the ecu gets fueling signal from the number 3 injector sensor and the vehicle speed sensor (which often has issues-why we cut its wire behind the instr cluster), and maybe from a sensor inside the diesel pump too-anyone know off-hand? If the fault showed the 3rd injector sensor then try replacing it with a good sensor. I should be more motivated to do this myself too, but rarely need my car, so it's slow progress.

Otherwise, JJim, after it has died, sat and restarted, does it idle ok-just run erratically under acceleration or is your idle bad (in neutral or with the clutch floored) also after this point is reached/ engine is warm?

d


I could go to the car now (I haven't started it since yesterday) and it will fire - pretty much straight away. I could leave it until fully warm and will tick over perfectly but, when I tried to drive it, it cut out after about 1/4mile. The engine ran perfectly until that point - then it cut dead and wouldn't start - even when bumped down a hill

The last time I tried it, It started ok, rev'd ok, turned on and off but again, I tried to drive it and it died and wouldn't start for a while.

It is just as if it is being turned off - but the lights are all there. (the lights are on but there's nobody home!):(

I've bought a vag com lead and I'm going to try it tomorrow. I'm also going to try bypassing the filter (although it is new) to rule out a blockage back to the tank - depening upon the vagcom results.

I'll let you know the outcome

[passat>sport]

I could go to the car now (I haven't started it since yesterday) and it will fire - pretty much straight away. I could leave it until fully warm and will tick over perfectly but, when I tried to drive it, it cut out after about 1/4mile. The engine ran perfectly until that point - then it cut dead and wouldn't start - even when bumped down a hill

You may want to check the fuel pipes that run underneath the car to the tank. If someone has jacked it up in the wrong place, the pipes could be squashed. Seen it on an audi a few years back. (all was fine untill you tryed to drive it) worth a look.

[junglejim]

I don't think it is the pipes. I'm the only person (I think) that has jacked the car up in the last 2 years. I'm generally careful with where I put the trolley jack.


I've been back out to it today and started it up as normal (after charging the battery). I left it running until fully warm, turned it of and on, rev'd it and drove it on and off the drive - without any hint of a fault.

Then I decided to drive it to the end of the road........and it cut out and wouldn't start!:aargh4:

I managed to push it back - something I'm getting good at - and checked round the engine for any loose wires or anything. I'm now in the process of checking the fuel to eliminate a blockage.

I also bought an ebay vag com lead, which I couldn't get working at the time it stopped. I managed to get it working by ticking 'force dumb mode'. The only fault in there was 17978 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer P1570 - 35-00 - -. I've cleared it (just in case it wasn't related) and I'm going try again.

Watch this space - or the horizon for smoke from a burning Galaxy http://www.fordgalaxy.org.uk/ford/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif

[junglejim]

I tried it again and managed to get to the end of the street and back - twice without it cutting out. On the third attempt it cut out and I had to push it back. I had vagcom connected and it didn't show any faults at all!

Back to eliminating a blockage I think!

Malakoffone, did you get any further?

[Crasher]

Can you watch measuring blocks 08 display group 001 and see if the rev count goes to zero as it cuts but you keep the clutch in to keep the engine rotating as long as possible. You will either need to do a log for this or have someone help you.

[junglejim]

I've ended up putting a new battery on it as the other one was shot.

I connected up vag com and drove it to the end of the road and back 3 times without problem - I then tried it a bit further again without problem - so I decided to go further.

I managed to get about a mile before it cut out. I started it up again after about 5/10mins - but only after having to crank it for a while and pump the throttle. It drove home but misfired up hill in 3rd. It also appears to struggle starting even if it hasn't stalled.

If I've done it right - here are the last five from the monitoring blocks log.

2394 2.5 1 73.8
1995 12.9 5.1 73.8
2730 11 3.6 73.8
2709 2.7 1 73.8
2247 3 1 73

The rev counter did appear to drop - but I'm not 100% as I was turning a corner at the time.

I also tried the spare key - just in case the normal one was creating a problem.

[junglejim]

jsut realised the log doesn't read too well

2394 - 2.5 - 1 - 73.8
1995 - 12.9 - 5.1 - 73.8
2730 - 11 - 3.6 - 73.8
2709 - 2.7 - 1 - 73.8
2247 - 3 - 1 - 73

Hope that comes out a bit better

[Crasher]

That is close to an over boost by really it needs to reach 2880mBar to trip it out.

[junglejim]

That is close to an over boost by really it needs to reach 2880mBar to trip it out.

Would an overboost cause these problems Is it worth investigating or do you have any other ideas - any would be welcome.

[junglejim]

I've just checked. Have I done the wrong measuring blocks. The one I did didn't mention boost. MIne measures
Engine speed + Injected quantity + Spec. Inj. duration + Coolant temp

[Crasher]

Yes an over boost stores code 17965 in the ECU and cuts most of the power until the ignition is turned off and then back on.

[junglejim]

Yes an over boost stores code 17965 in the ECU and cuts most of the power until the ignition is turned off and then back on.

Unfortunately, there are no error codes showing - I was hoping there would be, it would make life easier.

[Crasher]

That could be a faulty crank speed sensor. You can watch it in measuring blocks 08.

[junglejim]

which group covers the crank sensor?

[Crasher]

Any that shows engine revs, what you have to do is watch the revs with the engine not responding but in gear to keep it turning, its awkward to do and you really need an assistant to watch the screen. It may just be easier to take a chance on changing the sender.

[junglejim]

I've been having a look to see the crank sensor - but can't see it. Where abouts is it on the 1.9 pd engine? Ford TIS isn't overally descriptive - the picture makes it out to be easy to see.

I've tried - with an able assistant - to check the measuring blocks. It is very difficult and I'm not sure if I have found anything out (Still no error codes either). I do know is that if I drive it on the road - at any temperature - it will quickly start to miss at about 2500/3000 revs. If I let of the throttle it may or may not cut out. When it does cut out it is when I let it try and and idle. After a few minutes, I can restart it, but only by spinning it over fast for a while and giving it full throttle. If I rev it to about 2500 (stationary) the revs fluctuate up and down about 250. I can keep it running by keeping the revs up. If I let off it will cut out. If I leave it for about 30mins or more it usually starts first turn.

My missus thinks I should take it somewhere to be sorted. I'm concerned that it would be like giving them a blank cheque, so I would like to try and do as much as I can.

[Crasher]

The sensor is on the front of the engine next to the gearbox just above the sump flange.

[junglejim]

Cheers

I'll try and have a look before it goes dark. I went out to it about 20mins ago and couldn't get it to start without pumping the throttle. When it started I turned it off again and it still wouldn't start easily - Sometimes I think it is getting better, then this happens.

Could the sensor be faulty and not show a error code?

[passat>sport]

It's your lucky day jim, If this will fit yours, you can have it for free if you don't mind paying the postage!

It came from a PD 130 but I'm sure it will fit yours.

I've heard the engine running with it fitted btw (known good) I'll only bin it otherwise.

[junglejim]

http://thumbp1.mail.ukl.yahoo.com/tn?sid=3737592183&mid=AJe9ktkAAYDkR6s7QQCCOkalXQg&partid=2&f=861&fid=Inbox (http://uk.f861.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=7639_2553506_51979_1688_481148_0_20167_63013 1_1832150376&bodyPart=2&tnef=&YY=1701&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&VScan=1&Idx=1)http://thumbp1.mail.ukl.yahoo.com/tn?sid=3737592183&mid=AJe9ktkAAYDkR6s7QQCCOkalXQg&partid=3&f=861&fid=Inbox (http://uk.f861.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=7639_2553506_51979_1688_481148_0_20167_63013 1_1832150376&bodyPart=3&tnef=&YY=1701&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&VScan=1&Idx=1)

It's your lucky day jim, If this will fit yours, you can have it for free if you don't mind paying the postage!

It came from a PD 130 but I'm sure it will fit yours.

I've heard the engine running with it fitted btw (known good) I'll only bin it otherwise.

Cheers thats great. Its worth a go - I'm really concerned that I can chuck money at it and get nowhere. What is the best way round this. You post it and I pay for it when it arrives? Can that be done?

[passat>sport]

Make sure it will fit first! Give me a mo I'll try and upload the pics again.

[passat>sport]

Make sure the plugs are the same, It's grey and has the number 0906 on the female plug and (1j0 973 723 g) on the male.

[junglejim]

Thanks

I'll try and have a look tonight. The pics aren't showing but I think I get the idea. If I don't do it tonight I'm off tomorrow so I'll do it then. I went outside about 10mins ago - started it and it died after I rev'd it.

I'm usually on the forum everyday - desperately seeking a solution!! I'll let you know asap.