2.5tdi severe camshaft wear

[shabazmo]

After 110K miles my Audi has severe camshaft wear. I am told that this is a common problem and symtoms are poor starting as the valves do not open as they should.

I have had the car from new and changed the oil with 506.00 oil after every 11K miles, so was shocked to see so much wear. Has anyone come accross this problem?

Now 4 camshafts will cost about £700 plus labour and other parts, so probably £2000 to do the job. I was quoted £3000 from the audi dealer. I could probably remove the camshafts myself ( I did the cam belt 20K miles ago) and take them to an engine shop to be re-profiled at a cost of £300.

I would like to know if anyone has had this problem and what their solution was.
Many thanks in advance.

[a8 tech]

yes its quite common and the last one i did had new heads as the camshaft bearing caps had cracked.If you did your own belt then youmshould be able to fit the camshafts without to much hassle as long as you have the aligning tools for the camshafts.

[shabazmo]

Thanks for the information. Did you use new camshafts or re-profilled ones, and where is the best place to buy a new camshaft. Any other advice or parts I should replace.
Thanks

[a8 tech]

As i work for a main dealer it was new heads and parts supplied by are selfs under extended warranty.

[adamss24]

I would rather have a new engine fitted or get new camshafts. When the wear is really bad, they cannot be ground anymore. What year was your car made as there was a faulty batch of camshafts fitted durring 1998 on many a4/a6 that they were not hardened enough ? Why not sell the car as it is and put the money you will spend towards a new car ? I will be interested ! Regards, Chris-07841206564.

[shabazmo]

Thanks for the interest, but I have a well speced car, leather recaros, heaterd seats, rear park sensors, wood inlay and in canvas beige, a 2002 model, and have looked after it and over serviced it since new, so I am keen to get a good fix. Uses no oil and was getting over 43mpg, but this seems to have reduced to 40 over the last year, and I think cam wear may be the cause.
I heard that the cam wear problem had been solved in 2001, but my local Audi dealer replaced their 2002 canshafts after 110K miles.

[hsertic]

yes its quite common and the last one i did had new heads as the camshaft bearing caps had cracked.If you did your own belt then youmshould be able to fit the camshafts without to much hassle as long as you have the aligning tools for the camshafts.


Hi,

Can you please share some more info about the problem with camshaft wear? On which engines does it occur? On how many engines does it occur? Was there any service action or bulletin issued by Audi? Where can I find more information about it?

My father's car has similar problem, so I'm looking for more info.

Many thanks in advance for all the help,

Kind regards,

Hrvoje

[shabazmo]

Car is a 2002 2.5tdi with engine code AYM. I beleive it was acommon problem with pre 2001 engines. As far as I am aware, no service buletins were issued. What car do you have, mileage and age.regards

[hsertic]

Car is a 2002 2.5tdi with engine code AYM. I beleive it was acommon problem with pre 2001 engines. As far as I am aware, no service buletins were issued. What car do you have, mileage and age.regards

Hi,

It's late 1999 2.5tdi, bought new, with 180k km (around 140k miles). It was serviced (with oil changes) every 7500km.
The camshafts were completely worn-out, resulting with engine failure.

Many thanks for all the info.

Kind regards,

Hrvoje

[antman]

Hi

My A6 1.9TDI 2001 has severe cam wear evident at 100k and obvious at 130k. VW/Audi specialist recommends Rockwell testing on cam and followers to see if hard enough. If hard enough he thinks fault then lies with garage who were chucking in non spec oil for 30k miles (big mistake by me not to use Audi dealer or specialist for 70k-100k servicing).

I rang Audi UK to see if there were any recalls. They said if I had not heard from my Audi dealership there was no problem and then cut me off.

This is meant to be a quality engine. Is this really a common problem?

[POLOACE]

I have just bought a 2.5tdi 2000 allroad with worn cams, got it quote cheap.

I will probably do a full engine clean out and replace the cams.

Those how ahve experienced this were there any other problems arfter replacing the camshafts? Is this really a fault with poor quality materials on teh camshafts/ hardness or casued by incorrect specification oil.

Were new rocker fingers needed when you replaced the cams?

When the cams wer getting bad was performance badly effected?

Any help advice welcome

[jansko]

I think it is both. A poor quality as well as wrong oil used.

When I bought my allroad it had 115k kms on it and this was one of the first surprises I had to pull with.
I got them changed but if you have a skilled firend as I, you can get it quite cheaper than 15 hundred for the job.
Pretty common.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1746/dsc06487editjj2.jpg

[POLOACE]

Thanks for the post, is it all running fine now? I don't want to just do the cams if there is likely to be any other major issues. This car has done 140K and the worn cams look similar to yours.

I will do the work myself, I rebuilt plenty of engines in the past and even had a badly worn cam on a tatty polo before a 2nd hand head and that went for years. I was thinking of replacing the oil pump and trying clean inspect big ends and make sure all is OK.

However I think this may be overkill as it is only the cam gear that is most highly stressed suffers high frictional wear, I can get the cams for £135+ vat each.


The car was run on the long life service interval regime.

I just hope it does not turn into a money pit.

[jansko]

4 POLOACE:
I tell you this: Audi is a money pit itself so do not stress yourself much.
You say that the car was on long term service interval? That is another problem. Never again. Diesel needs oil change and especially if it is driven quickly to its revs after starts. many "sport drivers" do it. How about you. Then the oil looses its required characteristcs way before changing. Audi or VW didn't do very wise decision on putting their technology to this anyway. They do not build with quality as let's say Toyota.

If you think you can change the camshafts yourself, do it.
Just remember it would be wise to change the timing belt and all adjacent stuff within one job too. If it hasn't been already done.

And check on the carbon residue inside the intake channels ( the aluminium parts) once it is dismantled to bits. It is worth of cleaning.

[jansko]

Yes it runs fine now, (after investing 5000 euro into it. And anytime anything else with the car may come up. It is going to be 7 yrs old car. Thats too way old for an audi. They are good when new.

With the 2.5TDI V6 engine.
Another thing that might be requiring replacement could be the valves. But you do not want to go that far. Then you would need to change the gaskets/seals too. That's another 100 euro for each head.
Anyway, once you change the camshafts, change all the small bits that go on the valves there, i don't know their names in english yhough. I think you know that anyway.

[jansko]

2 POLOACE: Do you have A6 or allroad anyway?

[POLOACE]

Thanks for your comments jankso, that is reassuring.

It is an Allroad cams look like the picture above :( but I bought it cheap knowing this so should all work out ok in the end.

[paul b]

I highly reccommend taking it off the longlife service. I just can't see how that oil cannot ruin the engine.
Paul

[shabazmo]

Just to say that I have had my car since new and cheaged the oil myself using 506.00 spec oil every 11,000 miles and the cams still wore down. I have not replaced my cams yet as I have no bad symptoms. Le us know how you get on.
Regards

[snapdragon]

Interesting, I thought this issue was sorted in around 2000.
I read it was caused by using incorrectly case-hardened parts.

I'm reassured that I change my oil at least every 5000 miles with good stuff, but before I bought the car, it was only serviced 6 times in 112,000 miles!

[POLOACE]

I will do a full write up on swapping the cams when I do it.

I have bought it none running and not seen it running so I am scared that there will something else lurking that will make a good deal into a real money pit, fingers crossed I can get the car sorted and all in tip top condition for under £1K paid £4.5K for the car so hopefully should work out to be a nice bargain :-)

As far as I am aware it was dealer serviced when the computer said so and the previous owner did not get around to taking it to a garage untill it was no longer running properly.

[jansko]

to: POLOACE
I wish you good luck with the job,, and just don't worry too much. An audi driver can't worry too much otherwise it will put you in too much stress then. :cool::cool::cool: Take it easy. ;)

[POLOACE]

I just ordered the cams and fingers £740 odd, I will fit a new oil pump to be on the save side and do a full cambelt change including vibration damper.

I have taken the front off the car and stripped of the other rocker cover cams equally worn on both sides.

I struggling with workshops manual I have some downloaded manuals but having trouble accesses the allroad/audi details which is a pain. I really need details on cambelt replacemnt and cam tightening torques.

[paul b]

I just ordered the cams and fingers £740 odd, I will fit a new oil pump to be on the save side and do a full cambelt change including vibration damper.

I have taken the front off the car and stripped of the other rocker cover cams equally worn on both sides.

I struggling with workshops manual I have some downloaded manuals but having trouble accesses the allroad/audi details which is a pain. I really need details on cambelt replacemnt and cam tightening torques.
Try e-bay. I think a guy with the username qcp-1 has workshop manuals. I bought one off him, it really helped me do the cambelt replacement.
Paul

[shabazmo]

For those looking for a camshaft set. The following supplier may be of help. Still very expensive.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290192176379&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019
Regards

[POLOACE]

Starting to rebuild it now, I would strongly recomend the oil pump is changed with this failure as are qute alot of pitting marks where bits of cams that have fallen of from the edges have gone though before it gets to the filter.

I have had the injectors cleaned and checked while I am at it, lucky I did as 2 were just hoseing out and not cracking off.

I was sent only 22 hydraulic lifter things for a 24v engine :confused: 24 of everything else, I don't think someone can count.

I bought a pattern water pump, as some of you may be aware there is the tensioner plate (cam belt covermetal bit) for the the fuel pump and the like that has to bolt holes on teh water pump. These 2 bolts holes should be machine to accurtley give the correct height with the gasket in place. The pattern pump was not machine over 0.3mm thicker whch would be enough to upset the cover plate and make the fuel pump tensioning pully not to sit square on the belt which woudl probably result in long term problems. SO I recomend people check this detail if fitting a patter water pump.

Mines going back and being swapped for an original part.


Slowly getting there, working outside and the snow has not helped!

[POLOACE]

I now had it running arfter the cam replacement. I have not yet run it long, it was running very rough at first as it got the air out, and the EGR valve air pipe was a little loose.

The fuel has been sat in a tank for 6mths so thats probably pretty poor quality.

It does still sound very load, It may that the timing of the fuel pump is not spot on. I will plug vag com into it tomorrow and see what its telling me.

At times when it was warming up it did not want to rev and would eventaully die, I assume this is down to the air in the system. However it is very loud which worries me a little.

Getting there :biglaugh:

Any advice on starting up tdis from major surgery apreciated.

[POLOACE]

Bad running was due to debris in a cylinder hitting the head! I think the smoke was from unburnt fuel the ECU was chucking loads in to stop thw knock due to the debris in the head.

An inlet and exhaust valve also did something odd and then smashed a piston!

The while engine now going to have to come out!

[jansko]

uups, i DON'T think the job was done quite well. I am sorry for you.

[POLOACE]

I taken the other head off now found the cause,

Half a valve was missing on one bank, and hence the very bad running, the piston on that side is mashed to bits been hitting away at half a valve in the block for a while. Conrods bent amazing it started up at all! I can celaerly see why it smoked and run rough.

Oh well!

I was sold it as worn cams, no mention of warn cams plus completlty shot engine! oh well.

Sourced another good used engine to rebuild.

Engines now out and stripped.

[POLOACE]

It has turned into a money pit,

Oringal engine completly shot, ment con-rods, never looked at the main bearings. However there was crazy polished areas on the sump from the metal circulating in the oil!


I now currently completely rebuilding a lower milage "camshaft failure engine" to use in mine.

This engine has done about 100K all bearings in the bottom end are in tolerence, but there is a bit to much wear in some areas so I will be fitting new mains and big end bearings. I noticed scoring marks on some of the big end bearings from the odd bit of debris that had got in, so there is hidden damage.

I had to buy a new turbo, due to the cars PO failure and part of the broken valved goign though. Both heads from my 2nd hand engine have been skimmed and valve guides checked and valves seats lightly cut back in to remove pitting. Ports have been blue-printed I have new cams and cam gera to go in.

A huge box of gaskets and seals. New oil pump and oil cooler.

There is a technical service bulitin that states that the cams can be done on there own if there i sonly 0.5mm of cam wear, any more and I think they are implying more severe problems. The 2nd engine I have has quite a bit of cam wear and the complete engine was replaced for a new one.

Just waiting on my injectors to come back, and the bearings.

Next time around there will be no nasty surprises! I will have a fully checked engine with no hidden gremlins.

IF your cams are worn it is better to replace earlier rather than later, as the longer it goes on the larger the bits that chip of and entering into the engine.

This is a money lake rather than a mere pit!

Can't wait to drive the car!

[shabazmo]

When polace has finished his marathon "lets buy an audi and fix it for loads a money" I think he deserves a big drink. Anyone else interested? I'll buy the first round.

[POLOACE]

Starting to assembly all the new and recon bits at lasts!

[POLOACE]

New engine fired up today :aargh4: scary

But this time time it sounds sweet :-)

I will post up pictures of the whole rebuild when I get time.

Just bumper and head lights to go back on and m.o.t

:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh: :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh: :biglaugh::biglaugh:

[jansko]

Well POLOACE< I am very much interested in what was it all about so do not hesitate to write up here soon ;)

[POLOACE]

On the road and mot'd :-)

Had the quick release fitting radiator hose come of and spray water all over a headlight. 5hrs stripping and rebuilding a head light unit:mad:


Just need to to dynamic engine timing, a new engine cover, and a new electric fan and its done :biglaugh:

[jansko]

Listen Polocae, what did you do to the engine cover taht you need a new one?

When you get a good price on it get one for me too. Honestly. I have mine cracked :Blush2:

[Ossian]

Is this a problem that occurs to most 2.5tdi engines or has it been a bad batch of cams affecting a few. the reason I ask is I have my eye on a 2000 A6 Quattro in a local garage, but have really been put of with this post, I dont want to but it only to find I end up with a huge repair bill 6 months down the line.

[adamss24]

There has been a batch of not hardened camshafts fitted to cars from late 98 to 2001...i have seen a few with these problem. I would look trough the oil filler cap at the camshaft lobes for prononced wear. Failing that, if you buy it you could remove the rocker cover on one side to make shure nothing is amiss. Dont know how true is this rumour of non hardened cams, but it only occured on cars set on longlife intervals where engine stayed up to 2 years inside the engine. I did overhauled a 1999 tdi a few monthss ago and looking trough the service history it had the heads replaced once, then 40k later it ate the camshafts again ! Gues what, longlife intervals again ! Replaced the engine altoghether with one kept on standard service intervals with 190K running as sweet as the day it left the factory ! Last week went to see another 98 audi a6 i have seen on ebay, same old story, heads removed due to cambelt failure, cams worn out, guy ask for £800 in email, i offer 700, guy says no because someone offered 1000 quid !?! Are people mad ? It costs nearly 2k to repair these engines...anyway, looked elsewere and found a 98 a4 with the dreaded blocked cranckase breather and bought it for 750 quid ! Engine running fine, recent reconditioned injector pump, a bit tatty inside but will clean up well. All i need to do now is fit 2 new susp arms and to tax and mot...

[Ossian]

Thanks for the tip, I may pop back up today and have another look at it.

[paul b]

Thanks for the tip, I may pop back up today and have another look at it.
You could always look at the legendary PD130 if you didn't fancy the 2.5 TDI. :p

Paul

[DDe]

There has been a batch of not hardened camshafts fitted to cars from late 98 to 2001...i have seen a few with these problem. I would look trough the oil filler cap at the camshaft lobes for prononced wear. Failing that, if you buy it you could remove the rocker cover on one side to make shure nothing is amiss. Dont know how true is this rumour of non hardened cams, but it only occured on cars set on longlife intervals where engine stayed up to 2 years inside the engine. I did overhauled a 1999 tdi a few monthss ago and looking trough the service history it had the heads replaced once, then 40k later it ate the camshafts again ! Gues what, longlife intervals again ! Replaced the engine altoghether with one kept on standard service intervals with 190K running as sweet as the day it left the factory ! Last week went to see another 98 audi a6 i have seen on ebay, same old story, heads removed due to cambelt failure, cams worn out, guy ask for £800 in email, i offer 700, guy says no because someone offered 1000 quid !?! Are people mad ? It costs nearly 2k to repair these engines...anyway, looked elsewere and found a 98 a4 with the dreaded blocked cranckase breather and bought it for 750 quid ! Engine running fine, recent reconditioned injector pump, a bit tatty inside but will clean up well. All i need to do now is fit 2 new susp arms and to tax and mot...

Hi - well, was telling a friend about this issue. He has starting problems with his V6. We have been through everything and I am now strating to think about camshaft wear cauisng issues with fuel getting into the head. I dont wont to take the rocker cover off at this stage, but if I were to try and look through the filler cap, should it be smooth and shiny and not pitted and discoloured as in the photo in this string???? . Its a 98 V6 so maybe it did not have the hardend camshaft - would concur with whats written.

[shabazmo]

I have tried looking through the filler cap and it is impssible to tell. It is best to take the other side cover off. I did this recently on my 2002 A6. You have to remove the the 6 fuel pipes and then the cover but can be done in 2 hours. See pics. Despite vbeingb a 2002 model and oil changed every 11K miles, I still have camshaft wear but not drastic at the moment. I will probably change the shafts at 140K miles.

I also have problems with cold starting. I have just changed the battery this weekend and it seems to have improved things but am waiting for a very cold day. Next job is the crankcase filter.
Regards

[Crasher]

I took the cams out of a A4q180 V6 TDI for a forum member to replace them and found the tops of all the valves worn away, I ended up fitting two new heads at £1500 each!

[shabazmo]

Crasher, what was the mileage and was the car on long service intervals. Also did you have to replace the heads. why not just the valves. Thanks

[adamss24]

Should not be the spacer between the rocker finger and the valve stem wearing out ? I did repaired about 30 v6 tdi engines soo far and none had worn valves, its just the spacers wearing, the fingers breaking/dropping and the lifters wearing in a bad way ! Shabazmo, in respect to what you asked, the price for 12 valves,12 valve stem seals, 12 rocker fingers, 12 spacers, 12 lifters and 2 caqmshafts are close to 1000 quid on trade. Add in the labour cost and its cheaper to fit a new cyl head with 2 years warranty from dealer ! Also, the cams i only found aftermarket, cheap and nasty turkish casts...at 800 euros the set !

[Crasher]

Crasher, what was the mileage and was the car on long service intervals. Also did you have to replace the heads. why not just the valves. Thanks
It wasn’t that leggy, about 70K if I remember rightly but it was a few months back. I replaced the heads because myself and the customer came to the conclusion it was more sensible and cost effective than buying 4 cams, 24 valves, 24 lifters, 24 levers, 24 valve top pads, 6 glow plugs, two head skims and all the labour to strip, clean and rebuild plus the new heads were brand new and updated to the later roller lever type which are supposed to be more reliable. On top of that they come with a two year Audi labour inclusive warranty so should they develop a fault, Audi will do all the work under warranty.


Should not be the spacer between the rocker finger and the valve stem wearing out ? I did repaired about 30 v6 tdi engines soo far and none had worn valves, its just the spacers wearing, the fingers breaking/dropping and the lifters wearing in a bad way ! Shabazmo, in respect to what you asked, the price for 12 valves,12 valve stem seals, 12 rocker fingers, 12 spacers, 12 lifters and 2 caqmshafts are close to 1000 quid on trade. Add in the labour cost and its cheaper to fit a new cyl head with 2 years warranty from dealer ! Also, the cams i only found aftermarket, cheap and nasty turkish casts...at 800 euros the set !
The spacers and the tops of the valves were worn so heavily they had worn down to the valve locks.

[DDe]

I have tried looking through the filler cap and it is impssible to tell. It is best to take the other side cover off. I did this recently on my 2002 A6. You have to remove the the 6 fuel pipes and then the cover but can be done in 2 hours. See pics. Despite vbeingb a 2002 model and oil changed every 11K miles, I still have camshaft wear but not drastic at the moment. I will probably change the shafts at 140K miles.

I also have problems with cold starting. I have just changed the battery this weekend and it seems to have improved things but am waiting for a very cold day. Next job is the crankcase filter.
Regards

Shabazmo - great minds, replaced battery glow plugs and new battery - old batter was as old as the the car! so improvements!

Thanks for the Jpeg of the cams, I think that when it goes in for a service we'll have the covers removed and assess the wear. Thanks again for the post.

[jahgti1]

I have to say, having read this thread, that I'm now rather concerned about the potential for camshaft wear on my 2002 A6 2.5 TDI Quattro, which has covered 108, 000 miles.

I wonder if any of the Independent Specialists or Main Dealer forum members could indicate just how many cars are affected ?; will all cars have an issue at some point ?.

Many thanks in anticipation of your response.

[Crasher]

Impossible to say but I suspect all non roller follower cam engines are potentially at risk and even the roller cam engines suffer failure of the lobes.

[djl78]

When were the later roller lever type heads introduced i.e engine code????????
djl

[Crasher]

On the BAU, BDH, BCZ and BDG engines from 6/2003. They can be retro fitted to the AKE engine and such if the heads are swapped.

[djl78]

As always a fountain of knowledge.Thanks crasher

[snapdragon]

So is it probably best to use a PD oil such as VW507.00 on these engines? It sounds as though these engines also have an issue with cam system wear.?

[Crasher]

I recommend/use Longlife 3.

[shabazmo]

For what its worth I have been using since new the old long life spec 506.00 Comma and now 507.00 Quantum, but wear still occurs despite changes every 11,000 miles. with 125,000 miles, I have probably made my cams last longer than most.

[adamss24]

For what its worth I have been using since new the old long life spec 506.00 Comma and now 507.00 Quantum, but wear still occurs despite changes every 11,000 miles. with 125,000 miles, I have probably made my cams last longer than most.
My old 2.5 tdi quattro had absolutelly no wear on the lobes at over 185k, the a6 i have now has no wear at all at nearly 140k and my cousin's 99 a6 had also no wear at 150k. There are engine wich were fitted with not hardened camshafts from 98 to 2001 and these fail. The previous owners allways used castrol magnatec wich is a semi synthetic oil. I now use 5w30 fully syn. oil in all diesels that i service no matter what.

[DDe]

All

What are the symptoms of camshaft failure? Are there any signs or indicators on performance prior to failure?

I have a 98 2.5 Avant with 120k on the clock. I keep my eye on teh ouil regulary even tho it does not burn oil. However, I have been able to peer witha torch throuhj the oil filler and noted that there was some wear and then pitted metal. I guess this is the wear that has been advised on - however, I have no real problems with starting (as initially asdvised by Shamazo).

I was interested to find out when best to have these replaced?

Any feedback - this has been a very useful string.

[Crasher]

The only way to see what is going on is to remove the cam covers and inspect. If they are worn, the cams need to be removed to see what condition of the tops of the valves are in as if they are worn, the heads have to come off. I suggest you find a good VAG specialist for this.

[DDe]

Many thanks Crasher. I know a BOSCH speacialist who has worked on the car historically, I would like to try and carryout some preventative work rather than have major engine failure!!!

Thanks again Crasher.

[POLOACE]

8,000 miles on she is still running sweet :-) Had the vicous fan eat the radiator, ( I probably stood on it when it was in the garage in bits!)

I will have to post up pictures of the build.

[gazza57]

As I recall, there was an issue with A6 2.5Tdi camshafts, I recall somebody on this forum commenting that they appear to be made from old coathangers!
It might be worth checking if the replacement cams are sufficiently hard enough to prevent this occurring again. I suspect it's another one of those design faults for which nobody wishes to take responsibility.
One would hope that the replacement cams have been manufactured with correct specification steel this time good luck with it anyway
Gazza57:D

[Crasher]

It is not a design fault; the fault is with the stupid servicing intervals. Use PD suitable oil and change it annually or every 10k and there isn’t a problem, change it every two years or so and around 25k miles and it is no surprise that the cams wear out.

[djl78]

It is not a design fault; the fault is with the stupid servicing intervals. Use PD suitable oil and change it annually or every 10k and there isn’t a problem, change it every two years or so and around 25k miles and it is no surprise that the cams wear out.
Crasher,
I assume it's ok to use PD spec oil,even though the 2.5 Tdi isn't a PD,because it surpasses the spec required by that engine (i.e 507 00)?
djl

[Crasher]

Yes, that’s OK, I use Longlife 3 and change it every 10k.

[zorgman]

how do you get the right hand head off (looking at engine) cant get the nuts off manifold so im stuck, only way i can see is to take engine out or is their a trick to doing it as im totaly stuck and wish i never bought car

[Crasher]

I what way will they not come off, are they rounded off or are you finding access difficult?

[zorgman]

hi crasher.
i ts access to the manifold cant get at them and then if i do its studs so cant pull manifold off.
had a read about and seemingly if you take off the triangle plate bolts/nuts it should lift off is this correct as im at my wits end with it now feel like putting a match to car

[Crasher]

When I have done them I have had to take the back link pipes off first. I have done a few new heads on these and I do not enjoy the job at all, they are extremely awkward to get the heads off in situ but it certainly can be done. I have one coming in to have new cams in a few weeks and I am dreading it having valve top wear as it means taking the heads off and I do not like doing them.

[POLOACE]

As chrasher mentioned, I am pretty sure when I did mine I removed the Cat so I could undo/loosed the link exhaust pipe that goes into the turbo cast manifold junction, as they space was very tight. I then lifted the head off. I found removing some of the water pipes difficult. I also took the turbo off but by that stage I knew it was damaged. My engine was in a bad way, so It all had to come out. When I refitted I built up all the exhaust and tubo and dropped it all in. Siome pictures below for reference. I bough my car cheap an non running with told it needed new cams. So I first fitted new cams and a new oil pump and oil water cooler, I woudl not skimp on this as I found significant wear and debris in my engine from teh cams. However the main reason it was a non runner was a half a valve was broken. I restarted the engine with the new cams ( never took the heads off) and with in 5-10mins of running with lots of smoke the engine siezed I knew there was something else major wrong! As you can see from the pictures below the broken valve had badly damaged one piston then I think debris got caught up causing the engine to sieze and then broke valves in the other banK! I then rebuilt a engine that just had mild camshaft wear, the oil pump on that engine was much better but there was still scoring on the main bearings! I did a rebuild. Its now done 25K since the rebuild and it runs really well.

Don't forget to get the alignment tools for refitting the cambelt as there is alot of stretch in the belt.

http://cid-6f035629d7b75f6e.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Audi%20Allroad%202.5tdi%20engine%20rebuild?uc=3

[shabazmo]

Amazing Poloace, great pictures, my 2.5tdi is still running ok with 142K miles. Since using the Longlife 3 oil instead of just 506.00, the wear sems to have stopped. The first sign of poor running then its over to Crasher for a fix.

[sigibbons]

Guys, overall, how do you rate these engines? (2.5V6 TDI)

Are they a better option than the 1.9 tdi even with these reliability issues?

[POLOACE]

I am glad yours is still running ok,

[gazza57]

I have heard somewhere on this forum that it was incorrectly specified oil that had caused this excessive wear, but to be perfectly honest you would be no more likely to get the incorrectly specified oil from an independent than you would from a franchised dealer.
Obviously the dealer would tell you that as they would relish charging you £100/hour +VAT for simply changing the oil.
There is a plethora of different information out there as I found with my A6 2.7t when Castrol stopped manufacturing SLXIII Longlife for retail sale preferring to sell it only to audi dealers.
I found Opie Oils both helpful and informative in helping choose the correct replacement oil for my vehicle.
Google them they will sort it out if it is an oil related problem.

Gazza57;)

[Crasher]

Use Quantum Platinum.

[djl78]

Use Quantum Platinum.
Where can this be purchased from crasher?
Thanks

[Crasher]

Any VAG dealer, TPS, VAG specialist and specialist parts suppliers, it is VAG UK’s own brand oil, relabelled Castrol I think.

[Shaka1976]

To minimise wear I always do an oil flush before doing an oil change, after first buying a car. Just to make sure that the oil galleries are clear. Pulled apart to many engines that have failed from oil starvation from blocked or restricted oil galleries.

[sigibbons]

How is an oil flush peeformed?

[adamss24]

To minimise wear I always do an oil flush before doing an oil change, after first buying a car. Just to make sure that the oil galleries are clear. Pulled apart to many engines that have failed from oil starvation from blocked or restricted oil galleries.
I would not bother with "engine flushing" products as they can dammage the seals in the turbocharger + they are thinning the oil too much. I would spend the 5-10 quid you waste on engine flush to buy a better (longlife oil) fully synthetic oil wich will clean and keep the engine much cleaner but change it at max 10K. I do have 2 audis and 1 vw passat with the v6 tdi and i have no noticeable wear on the camshafts. I do drive me cars very hard but i do use Castrol EDGE 5w30 and only keep it for 6000 miles max. A bit of overkill really but the engines are soo clean inside even at over 180k miles.

[All-rod]

How do you guys rate Millers XFE oils for older V6 Tdi's?
I noticed my Allroad's oil been changed with XFE last time, while previously had Castrol long life 3 5w/30 by indy.

[shabazmo]

To minimise wear I always do an oil flush before doing an oil change, after first buying a car. Just to make sure that the oil galleries are clear. Pulled apart to many engines that have failed from oil starvation from blocked or restricted oil galleries.

I have always flushed with 4 lts of Comma flushing oil after every 11,000 miles. But cam wear was evident after 100K miles and using the correct spec 506.00 oil. I should have used 506.01 pd oil, its successor 507.00 or long life 3 oil. Platinum would be as good but its not for extended intervals.
Lucky my cam wear is not affecting performance and seems to have stopped.

[paul b]

How do you guys rate Millers XFE oils for older V6 Tdi's?
I can't speak for V6 TDI owners but I'm running it in my 2003 1.9 TDI A6 and it's been fine, no camshaft issues but then again camshaft issues aren't as common on the 1.9.

[shabazmo]

I thought I'd give an update on my camshafts. 55,000 miles after I found some camshaft wear, i decided to take the covers off at 155K miles to check for wear. To my pleasant surprise there has been no more wear on the camshafts. this is probably because I have used Longlife oil 507 spec since 100K miles instead of Comma 506.00 spec. I have posted some pictures in my gallery. Note how clean the head is, I flush out the engine every 11K miles. Oil consumption is 0.5l in 11K miles.

[vwcabriolet1971]

Has anyone done any Rockwell Hardness comparison tests between old worn camshafts and new ones ( would need to be done on the none lobe parts of the camshaft) ?
Heat treatment failures seem to come up quite regularly with VAG engines e.g. the 2.0 liter oil pump hexagon drives .

[burchy1234]

What is the easiest way of telling if a car has this issue?

[shabazmo]

The best way is to take the cam covers off. A bit involved as the fuel pipes have to come off, but it the only way.

[Crasher]

It is possible to gauge wear by turning the engine over a bit at a time on the starter until the peak of a lobe is visible trough the oil filler cap, not a perfect way but if the ones visible are worn it is likely that all are worn.

[burchy1234]

i presume i'm looking for flat spots? What about scoring?

i'm gonna be looking at a car this weekend. 2.5tdi quattro sport 2001 with 108k on the clock. the only thing i could do is turn the engine over untill i can see one!

[Crasher]

They don’t go flat, they wear like this,

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AudiV6CamshaftWear.jpg

[burchy1234]

will i be able to see this through the oil filler cap?

[allan_audi]

Has anybody checked if their Oil Retention valves are causing CAM Wear??

I have noticed over the past year that my engine seems to be suffering CAM wear and had cam rattle especially on cold startup which would subside over a mile or so. You can see the degradation of the CAM lobes down the oil filler. Having now changed the valves (while doing another job), the engine is now quiet from cold. I have not noticed any rattle or noise, its just quiet, even if I just idle the engine.

If the heads are suffering oil starvation especially when cold then this could be causing premature cam wear. Changing the cams/heads without changing the oil retention valves would be crazy since the aggressive wear would just occur to them aswell.

Its just a thought, I did raise another thread on the forum........

[Crasher]

With a pencil torch it is just about possible to examine one lobe.

Oil retention valve failure is quite characteristic, the tappets will shut up if the engine is revved and then slowly start tapping again when on idle. It is a very big job to replace the valves and I always recommend they are changed when replacing the camshafts but it is a lot of additional work removing the turbo (and injection pump on some engine codes) even then although the parts only cost a few pounds.

[allan_audi]

Thats exactly what my engine was doing, but this would lead onto CAM failure.

Any mechanical noise is usually a sign of failure and in the case of cams/followers a sign of oil starvation. No matter what your cams are made of they will soon wear without oil

I'd suggest to anyone with a 2.5tdi to check for rattle especially on cold startup and then to get on with doing the Oil Retention valves. Its a long job but I'm glad they're now done.

[Crasher]

Certainly, oil retention valve failure will cause cam wear.

[chrissy077]

just asked Audi for a oil rentention valve and they have no idea what im on about, said i wuld have to take it off and get a number, can these be called something else. going to start my mammouth rebuild tomorrow, 4 camshafts and a turbo, wich me luck!!!.

[snapdragon]

As a guess, looking at the parts..
059103175A non-return valve

http://www.vagcat.com/epc/

[allan_audi]

I think latest part is;
059 103 175 F

You need two of them.

Take a look in the thread below;
http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=105962

[chrissy077]

Today was a absolute disaster, i had taken my 00my 2.5tdi to a local audi specialist with a lack power a few months back, they had diagnosed a turbo and worn camshafts, gave me a price and i went off miserable, today i had the parts and ready to fit them, take the rocker cover off only to find the rear camshaft cover was half missing and four valves of the right head dead, i also found a crack in the head!!!.

so i now have 1500 pounds worth of parts which are redundent, hopefully they will take them back, anybody know a good place to get a engine with camshafts from.

[Crasher]

I can’t understand your description of the damage. Rear camshaft cover half missing and cracked head? Can you post some pictures?

[Padwick]

Although I could look it up, does anyone know offhand what gaskets would be needed to do the retention valve job?