2008 1.9tdi bxe stalling

[dean.st]

A bit of a long one.

I drove it home from work one day and it ran ran as good as normal. However the next morning it took ages to start, then as you drive away it stalls. It has stayed that way since. It will idle for ages but the furthest it's been is around the block and stalling was often under power.

The car was scanned by my local garage and it showed up with engine speed issue. So i changed cam sensor g40. no difference. So then i changed crank sensor (and dmf clutch) no change.

Then i thought maybe the timing belt is stretched. changed that and adjusted cam timing but no difference.

I have a new battery and fuel filter fitted aswell.

My garage is closed so i can't get a rescan however the cheapy generic scanner i have throws up code p0726 which is engine speed.

I have also tested fuses 29 & 8 and they have 12v power.

I can hear the lift pump in the tank prime, although it's very quiet.

Finally yesterday i did some readings from the g40 & g28 plugs. The g40 was fine with 2 x 4.9v and a 0v.

The g28 however has the following readings with the ignition on.

pin 1black/red 0v
pin 2 purple 4.9v
pin 3 brown/blue 0v

I am now stumped and no further forward.

Help gratefully received.

[dean.st]

A little more information.

I have just inspected the in tank pump. I cleaned the cup and body up and refitted it. No change but i did cycle it a couple of times to push the air along and it seems ok.

The cluster is showing the engine management light on, the glow plug light is flashing and the epc? warning light is on. Might be that i've knocked something refitting the gear ox / drive shaft / hub.

What i was wondering though is, the hp pump is also the vac pump. Is there a correlation with this?

The car also doesn't rev above 3000 at standstill but did when driving.

[Gazwould]

It'll stall indefinitely if you don't change the crank bearing shells.

[Crasher]

Crank speed sensor failure is common and a bitch to change; it won’t rev at standstill due to emissions legislation... it is not allowed to.

[nurseymk5]

Hi Dean iv got an issue similar to yours that arose today same engine too, i have asked in another thread I had going a question to crasher but seen as he is in here ill put it in here as it might help us both.. did you only have one fault code? Heres my original question to crasher, let me know if it is at all like what you have experienced..
"another question for you while iv got you, (see you putting out fires all over the place!) I have another mk5, a 2008 tdi, engine code BXE, recently picked it up and all has been well, when i got it it had a flat battery so when I scanned with vcds there was fault codes on everything I cleared them and all was good. Fast forward and I went to move it tonight and it wouldn't start, it just cranked over. I kept trying and eventually it did start with some full throttle but quickly spluttered and died, now again it won't start.. iv scanned with vcds and get multiple codes which I clear, they then come back when I try to start it again.
The codes are..
013112 - control circuit for glowplug controller 1 - electrical malfunction.
005441 - fuel pump relay (j17) - open circuit.
012295 - camshaft position sensor (g40) - no signal.
012292 - relay for low output preheating of coolant (j359) - open or short to ground.
012294 - relay for high output preheating of coolant (j360) - open or short to ground.
I cant hear the fuel pump in the tank but given I get multiple codes all at the same time eachtime I'm guessing its unlikely to be the pump... any known issues that throw up those multiple codes ?! Thanks again buddy!"

Regards

[Crasher]

I was confused there for a moment...

[Crasher]

It is possible the line 30 relay in the engine bay fuse box, control group number 100, is faulty

[nurseymk5]

Don't suppose you could direct me to which one that is so I can check mate?

[dean.st]

the only same error i had was the g40 error code. i think it is part of the symptomatic fault on mine rather than the cause

[dean.st]

Hi Dean iv got an issue similar to yours that arose today same engine too, i have asked in another thread I had going a question to crasher but seen as he is in here ill put it in here as it might help us both.. did you only have one fault code? Heres my original question to crasher, let me know if it is at all like what you have experienced..
"another question for you while iv got you, (see you putting out fires all over the place!) I have another mk5, a 2008 tdi, engine code BXE, recently picked it up and all has been well, when i got it it had a flat battery so when I scanned with vcds there was fault codes on everything I cleared them and all was good. Fast forward and I went to move it tonight and it wouldn't start, it just cranked over. I kept trying and eventually it did start with some full throttle but quickly spluttered and died, now again it won't start.. iv scanned with vcds and get multiple codes which I clear, they then come back when I try to start it again.
The codes are..
013112 - control circuit for glowplug controller 1 - electrical malfunction.
005441 - fuel pump relay (j17) - open circuit.
012295 - camshaft position sensor (g40) - no signal.
012292 - relay for low output preheating of coolant (j359) - open or short to ground.
012294 - relay for high output preheating of coolant (j360) - open or short to ground.
I cant hear the fuel pump in the tank but given I get multiple codes all at the same time eachtime I'm guessing its unlikely to be the pump... any known issues that throw up those multiple codes ?! Thanks again buddy!"

Regards

The relay 100 is in the fuse/relay tray next to the battery in mine. There might be others elsewhere though. Such as under the dash by the steering wheel


Don't suppose you could direct me to which one that is so I can check mate?

[dean.st]

It is possible the line 30 relay in the engine bay fuse box, control group number 100, is faulty

Thanks for the help, i'll get another from tps tomorrow.

[nurseymk5]

Thanks both for the info, I think ill spend the afternoon swapping relays with another mk5 I have and testing fuses. I'm sure iv read about water ingress problems and corroded fuseboxs etc, any chance that's a possibility too?

[Crasher]

This should be what yours looks like

https://live.staticflickr.com/1833/43190298644_900ece6b91_o.jpg

[dean.st]

the 100 relay has now been superceded. Original part number was 7mo 951 253 a.

It is now a 644 relay, part number 4ho 951 253.

[nurseymk5]

Swapped the relay over, still the same. If i crank for long enough full throttle it will start but then dies straight away. Again, I get those same fault codes...

[Crasher]

the 100 relay has now been superceded. Original part number was 7mo 951 253 a.

It is now a 644 relay, part number 4ho 951 253.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49945164053_f5d0963242_o.jpg

So you have a dual 100 relay e box?

https://live.staticflickr.com/7913/46819764784_47af3a5358_o.jpg

[nurseymk5]

No i have just one 100 relay, swapped it for a known working relay I have in another mk5 and symptoms are the same..

[nurseymk5]

The fault code for fuel pump relay goes when i clear it, if I then exit the engine module on vcds and go back in it reappears without trying to start the car. the rest return after trying to crank it. Which relay is fuel pump on ?

[dean.st]

No difference in mine. I only have 1 relay in the box under the bonnet. Still starts after a few cranks and idles fine. Then dies a short while into driving it. No limp mode just dies.

No noises, no idle issues, no knocks bangs smoke fizzling clicking. nothing!!

[nurseymk5]

I cant hear any relays click on mine, still got the fuel relay fault code. If i had a wiring diagram I'd attempt some testing but I'm not sure where to start! If I knew which relay was fuel relay and what pins did what id try bypass it see if the pump fired up but I don't know whats what..

[nurseymk5]

Tested at the pump for a voltage, dont seem to have 12v, Just put 12v to the pump, hopefully on the right wire and the pump kicked into life, car started with the 12vs connected to pump and remains running once the temporary 12v is removed. So my pump seems fine.. possibly pointing towards a relay or an issue stopping the relay from working? Still not sure what relay is the fuel pump relay.. and if that is fine where do the wires go that feed/control the relay...

[nurseymk5]

No difference in mine. I only have 1 relay in the box under the bonnet. Still starts after a few cranks and idles fine. Then dies a short while into driving it. No limp mode just dies.

No noises, no idle issues, no knocks bangs smoke fizzling clicking. nothing!!

Whilst idling it seemed to misfire more and more so just tried to drive it round the yard and it dies while driving. Same issue going on?

[nurseymk5]

I may have found the right relay, under the steering wheel a small grey one with 449 written on it? It has a blue and red wire in the back of it same as the fuel pump. If i short out that connector pin to the one with 12 volts on it (red and yellow) the pump kicks into life and the car will then start. So I thought maybe the relay is faulty. Changed it for 2 other known working relays and the problem is still there, is that the right relay? What commands that relay if it is the right one? The other 2 cables to that relay have 3v on them when the keys in the ignition (black and yellow & black and brown) is that right?

[dean.st]

I went to my garage today & it's booked in for Tuesday.

I thought i would try it again this morning and it started with a little struggle. When it started it ran fine. Until i got to the end of my street and i had to stop. Put my foot on the clutch and it cut out. It was a bugger to start but did.

I got to the end of my estate and the same scenario at the junction.

After that it ran fine. There is a little vibration from the engine when idling.

I then took it for a drive to the services, approx 5 miles. It ran spot on. Except when i went to slow right down to pull in to the space. It stalled. Again it was a pig to start but did and then ran fine all the home. The only new thing now is the stall & engine judder.

[nurseymk5]

I haven't taken mine for a long drive just incase it dies and I'm stranded! I got hold of a wiring diagram and it shows another relay alongside the fuel pump relay called "fuel system primer relay" where is that located? Seems to have a wire to a control module but I have no idea what module it is... They both seem to feed the pump.. on the diagram iv got the fuel pump relay is somehow connected to the glow plug control module and I have a glow plug control fault code..? Coincidence? Could the glow plug module be causing the issue? My heard hurts!

VIN: WVWZZZ1KZ8W264596 License Plate:


* * * * * * * * Address 01: Engine * * * Labels: 03G-906-016-BKC.clb
Control Module Part Number: 03G 906 021 PM * *HW: 03G 906 021 AN
* Component and/or Version: R4 1,9L EDC G000AG 1136
* * * * * *Software Coding: 0000078
* * * * * * Work Shop Code: WSC 01392 785 00200
* * * * * * * * * * * VCID: 79F9E2F0303C4887DE-802C
4 Faults Found:

013112 - Control Circuit for Glow Plug Controller 1
* * * * * * * *P3338 - 000 - Electrical Malfunction
* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Status: 01100000
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Priority: 3
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Frequency: 1
* * * * * * * * * * Reset counter: 255
* * * * * * * * * * Mileage: 225263 km
* * * * * * * * * * Time Indication: 0
* * * * * * * * * * Date: 2000.00.00
* * * * * * * * * * Time: 05:51:14

* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * RPM: 798 /min
* * * * * * * * * * Speed: 0.0 km/h
* * * * * * * * * * Load: 0.0 %
* * * * * * * * * * Voltage: 13.98 V
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 00001000
* * * * * * * * * * Temperature: 71.1°C
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 11111111

005441 - Fuel Pump Relay (J17)
* * * * * * * *P1541 - 000 - Open Circuit
* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Status: 01100000
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Priority: 2
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Frequency: 1
* * * * * * * * * * Reset counter: 255
* * * * * * * * * * Mileage: 225263 km
* * * * * * * * * * Time Indication: 0
* * * * * * * * * * Date: 2000.00.00
* * * * * * * * * * Time: 05:51:15

* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * RPM: 798 /min
* * * * * * * * * * Speed: 0.0 km/h
* * * * * * * * * * Load: 0.0 %
* * * * * * * * * * Voltage: 13.98 V
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 00001000
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: * * * *0
* * * * * * * * * * (no units): 33.0

012292 - Relay for Low-Output Preheating of Coolant (J359)
* * * * * * * *P3004 - 000 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Status: 00100000
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Priority: 3
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Frequency: 1
* * * * * * * * * * Reset counter: 255
* * * * * * * * * * Mileage: 225263 km
* * * * * * * * * * Time Indication: 0
* * * * * * * * * * Date: 2000.00.00
* * * * * * * * * * Time: 05:51:15

* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * RPM: 798 /min
* * * * * * * * * * Speed: 0.0 km/h
* * * * * * * * * * Load: 0.0 %
* * * * * * * * * * Voltage: 13.98 V
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 00001000
* * * * * * * * * * Load: 44.3 %
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 11000000

012294 - Relay for High-Output Preheating of Coolant (J360)
* * * * * * * *P3006 - 000 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent
* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Status: 00100000
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Priority: 3
* * * * * * * * * * Fault Frequency: 1
* * * * * * * * * * Reset counter: 255
* * * * * * * * * * Mileage: 225263 km
* * * * * * * * * * Time Indication: 0
* * * * * * * * * * Date: 2000.00.00
* * * * * * * * * * Time: 05:51:15

* * * * * * *Freeze Frame:
* * * * * * * * * * RPM: 798 /min
* * * * * * * * * * Speed: 0.0 km/h
* * * * * * * * * * Load: 0.0 %
* * * * * * * * * * Voltage: 13.98 V
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 00001000
* * * * * * * * * * Load: 44.3 %
* * * * * * * * * * Bin. Bits: 11000000

[Crasher]

The J643 relay is only fitted to cars with the supplementary Diesel fired heater. The glow plug control unit and fuel pump relay J17 are both powered by fuse SB15 as are the low and high output heater relays on a circuit called D183 so there is your connection and the relay that powers this fuse is the line 30 relay in the engine bay fuse box, the one originally marked 100 on top. Make sure fuse SB15 in the e box is getting power.

[nurseymk5]

The diagram I have is an autodata one, i don't know if you can see what I'm seeing but my relay labels etc are different on this autodata diagram. If you can see autodata I assume the following..
J643 relay - k281 relay
Pump relay j17 - k20 pump relay
Fuse sb15 - engine bay fuse 15
Line 30 relay - k79 relay

Does that tally up to you? If so ill do some more investigation this afternoon and start with that fuse. I know that relay in the engine box is a good one so if fuse 15 is ok with power to it where would you go next just in case? I'll report back my findings either way! Thanks again folks

[Crasher]

The J643 relay is only fitted to cars with the supplementary Diesel fired heater.

The J643 is only fitted to cars with the supplementary heater...:banghead:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49949362932_fbf2a7f78a_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j6RxoC)

[nurseymk5]

Upon investigation of fuse 15 found corrosion in the fuse holder, bit of contact cleaner and a toothpick and fuel pump seems to be back online and fault codes have gone, fingers crossed that's it sorted! Thank guys! Made any progress on yours Dean?

[dean.st]

Congratulations on curing yours. I've stopped with mine. I'll end up sticking a hammer into it!

I'll see what my garage says on Tuesday.

[dean.st]

and we're back. The garage thinks the g28 sensor is faulty so i have a warranty exchange one on order. He said that there is no reading from g28 when trying to start but when it kicks in the car starts. Then when the car stalls it is still reading g28 for a few seconds until it vanishes.

The error can't be cleared at the moment as it is.

One thing he did say was that the ecu may need updating too. I have a t6 work van which has had 4 or 5 remaps to solve many issues that it has had.

I'm thinking rather than update/reflash the same map i may aswell get a stage 1 remap done. Am i correct in thinking a upgraded remap will do the same as a standard remap will in terms of clearing stubborn fault storage?

[dean.st]

one more question. Should i have 2 live 5v (approx) wires at the crank sensor plug with the ignition switched on? Just like the cam sensor has.

[dean.st]

Today i fitted another new crank sensor. It has made no difference.

It takes a while to start after a good few cranks.

However i have now cleared the engine speed faults showinv and the EML has gone off.

I still have the heater plug light flashing and the esp ligbt is stuck on permanent on amber.

No codes are showing on my handheld reader.

I'll be speaking to an electrical engineer ref possible ecu error tomorrow.

Anyone have any more things that this starting issue is caused by?

[Crasher]

You need a proper code read, if the ESP light is on there may be a non OBDII code stored in the engine ECU and the ABS ECU; replacing the engine ECU is the last resort, in the last 40 years of dealing with engine management systems I have had to replace only a handful of ECU’s. Also a new ECU is not a plug and play process, it can get very stressful to do correctly.

[dean.st]

I spoke to the ecu guy today and he said unlikely to be the ecu itself. So i went and got the codes read again. They are as follows


00802 engine speed sensor g28 no signal p0322

05661 GL w plug for cylinder 4 open circuit p161d

01314 engine control module read trouble codes

00576 terminal 15 electrical problem in circuit - intermittent

00883 ignition switch (d) terminal s electrical problem in circuit - intermittent

00884 ignition switch (d) terminal X electrical problem in circuit - intermittent

01744 ignition switch terminal p (d) electrical problem in circuit - intermittent

00885 ignition switch (d) terminal 50 electrical problem in circuit - intermittent

It was suggested to test the relevant pins between the ecu and cam sensor but he wasn't sure which they would be without a wiring diagram.

It would seem that the engine can't get a signal from the crank sensor so it gets it from the cam sensor instead which causes the prolonged starting time.

Can some advise which pins at the ecu i need to test and exactly how to read it. I have a multimeter so can follow the instructions.

[Crasher]

Did you fit a new ignition switch? They are a big problem on the Golf 5 platform, we fit lots.

[monty9120]

Allot of fault codes are there because of failed starts ie taking out ignition when it’s not managed to start

The speed sensor is an issue as they won’t rev properly when in neutral and if it doesn’t read you moving may cause more issues

I know you bridged the relay is there a fuel cut off on these that’s dodgy ie car had a small bump


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dean.st]

Further update. I fitted a new genuine ignition switch and it made no difference. I then went to fit new glow plugs and the last one is just spinning!!!!!

This effing car is fighting me every step of the way.

So once i figure out how to remove the glow plug i then need to figure out why the ecu cannot see the crank sensor to start the car.

[Roverfan]

one more question. Should i have 2 live 5v (approx) wires at the crank sensor plug with the ignition switched on? Just like the cam sensor has.
I am not a pro but I hope you don't mind if I offer my two pence.

1 and 3 are usually positive and ground, middle one being signal wire which can have voltage on a pull down cam/crank sensors. So two 5v's can be good. Outer ones must be positive and ground at all times ign on.


.
Finally yesterday i did some readings from the g40 & g28 plugs. The g40 was fine with 2 x 4.9v and a 0v.

The g28 however has the following readings with the ignition on.

pin 1black/red 0v
pin 2 purple 4.9v
pin 3 brown/blue 0v
Going by mk6 wiring diagrams, this shows a problem. The 5v reference wire is open circuit, perhaps intermittently. Assumption being the wiring is configured same as mk6 - signal wire pin2.

Since a range of sensors are not effected it shows the problem lies in the 5v ref wire going to the g28 crank sensor. I would trace that wire back through the loom to the point of damage or break

[Roverfan]

I found some online wiring diagrams for bxe engine. There is a difference with the mk6. According to the diagram the wires are not spliced and all three run direct through to the ecu.

So although it could still be a break, the wires will want checking at the ecu connector. The diagram is showing the concerned ecu connector pins as T60 pins 57, 58, 42 should be easy to verify being same colour.

[dean.st]

Thanks for the tech info on the wiring. I'll take the head off on monday if it's not raining and with the extra space it will make checking much easier

[dean.st]

I'm not able to get a manual in time for this repair.

I've searched online for the the head bolt torque settings. I've found a lot but none specifically mention the bxe pd engine.

Are the settings as follows?

1. 40nm
2. 60nm
3. 90 ⁰
4. 90⁰

TIA

[Crasher]

Of course you can https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/showHome.do;jsessionid=6949FA6B0AC776CC67682FB585B 7C088.ASTPVWE1 . Yes the spec is correct but what about the sequence?

[Roverfan]

The angles on the EA188 engine look OK for a glow plug removal kit with the engine in situ. Have you considered these? I'd certainly try one unless you have other work you need to do with head off

[dean.st]

The cylinder head is at the engineers having the glow plug removed and hole re threaded or plugged.

Today i stripped the wiring harness and pulled the ecu.


Tests showed that i had 4.9 volts on the purple & black/red pins.

However at the plug i got 4.9v at the purple and 1.5v that dropped whilst watching it.

Off through the loom i went and there was a gap of about 3mm in the black /red wire. The outer sheath just about holding it together.

Not sure how any voltage got past that. I soldered in a bridge and voila 2 x 4.9 volts at the plug

Woo freakin hoo.

Thanks for all the help.

[dean.st]

one last thing (hopefully) is there a way to stop the rocker cover seal from leaking. i've changed it in the past with little improvement.

[dazoswfc1867]

have you lads sorted the fault i have something very similar and i am ready for smashing the car to bits

[dean.st]

have you lads sorted the fault i have something very similar and i am ready for smashing the car to bits

Have you had a fault code reading done? Is it coming up with the g28 engine speed error?

If so change the sensor. If it persists (& assuming it's the same as mine) check the wiring from sensor to ecu. You should have high 4-5v on the black/red wire & the purple wire.

Check the g28 plug for those readings first.

[dean.st]

The car is now back together and spinning fine.

However as i had the head off the fuel lines were emptied up at the head/dual pump area.

As the injectors are sunk inside the head i'm unsure how to bleed this fuel system.

Can someone explain how to do this?

[dazoswfc1867]

Had the sensor changed only fault is glow plug and buttons on steering wheel lol mine cuts out after its been running for about a hour the runs pants like a misfire the will cut out I also get a shudder around 1800/2000rpm but when the engine is cold it's spot on

[Crasher]

Dean, just keep cranking or if you are brave, give it a sniff of brake cleaner but be bloody careful as the engine can run away and it might not stop!

Daz, when it cuts out, get out and release the filler cap and see if there is a large inrush of air past your hand.

[dean.st]

Thanks for all the help on this. A squirt of easy start and it fired straight up. Now it's back to starting and running as it should. Except the bloody temp gauge isn't working now so no rad fan kicking in!!

[Crasher]

Check fuse SB38. Does your car has a lower radiator outlet temp sender? The G62 on the head is plugged in isn't it?

[dean.st]

I've checked the voltages at the plugs for both g62 (head sensor) and the lower sensor on the rad and both have 5v supplies to them.

I replaced the head sensor this morning. However i drove the car today in 25⁰ heat and it struggled to show 45 on the temp gauge.

I've not been able to find a diagram with fuse sb38? I did find the big 50amp flat fuse for the rad fan which is good.

[Crasher]

Engine bay fuse box, they are numbered.

[dean.st]

my fuse box is part/type number 335624830. All fuses are numbered F1 through to F30 with some unused. There are 6? very high amp bolt on fuses to the front but are un numbered and they range from 50a to 200a.

There is 1 relay, was 100 but now 644.

One more symptom is that when the gauge finally shows some heat, removing the connections to either or both of the sensors makes no difference to the gauge at all.

[Crasher]

The trouble is all my VW wiring diagrams are in German and my Deutsch ist nicht great...

[dean.st]

all of the fuses in the cabin and under the bonnet are intact