Tiptronic... A warning

[gazza57]

Bought my A6 in Aug 2015 3.0 Tdi Quattro Tip, best gearbox on an Auto I've ever had BUT at just 92000 miles:

Driving home last Friday got a gearbox malfunction message and car went into limp mode, got it scanned, three codes, one for a module, the second for clutches and the third for selector fork.
Car would not move initially, however after I left it for four hours it was fine
.
After talking to a trusted mechanic I know he called someone who specialises in Tiptronic Gearboxes for Porsche and for Audi only.

The estimate for sorting this is an eye watering £4300 inc VAT, he has taken it today but is of the opinion that Audi's sealed for life advice on Tiptronic Gearboxes will be to blame for this gearbox failure, we will see.

He says that they do between 8-10 of these per month and whilst some are just down to ragging the box, the majority just fail due to emulsified fluid which has lost its ability to effectively lubricate the internals.
He prefers to call it not sealed for life but sealed for death, there is no fluid invented that can keep its lubricating properties for 6-10 years, there just isn't.
It is very difficult to replace the fluid £31/litre, a lot of specialist bits and pieces are required and therefore it's expensive, especially so at Audi dealers.


He is of the opinion that not changing the gearbox oil wipes probably a quarter of the gearboxes lifespan into a cocked hat, but that the motivation to do this keeps maintenance costs down and thereby monthly leasing charges lower, by the time the cars get to >80k miles anyway most are long out of their warranty and are therefore unimportant to the dealers in any case.

The car is worth £10k but I now have to pay £4300 to get it back on the road, this is a bitter pill to swallow after having all my servicing done on the dot with Genuine parts, I understand the Tip box is being phased out to be replaced by the S Tronic for Quattro models, but it will be a long time before I buy an Audi again if ever, especially one with an Auto box.

[Whippy53]

Yeah, so, advice on here has always been to change the " cough " sealed for life oil at 80k. No mechanical system working under those conditions can ever be 'sealed for life'.

[Gazwould]

https://www.fuchs.com/fileadmin/_processed_/4/9/csm_TITAN_ATF_6008_7747d4a453.jpg

[gazza57]

Cheers Gazwould

[gazza57]

I spoke to Audi yesterday who were unsurprisingly unsympathetic, and of course refuted that the decision to leave the gearboxes without oil change wasn't in the best interests of owners, but more about keeping lease charges down when the cars are new and still under warranty.
It is then surprising to learn the new S Tronic gearboxes will require transmission fluid changes every 38000 miles, but what happened to "sealed for life"?
The answer to that question is clear.
Gazza57

[AndyN01]

I'm no chartered engineer but "common sense" says that any lubricating fluid needs to be changed at some point - assuming that you want whatever it is lubing to last a decent length of time.

I reckon it's the last bit - a decent length of time - that's the root of the problem.

IMHO it's in a manufacturer's financial interest to have a car "pack up" just after they can wash their hands of any warranty claim.

With the favourite ways of currently "buying" a car this is even more advantageous for them. It keeps the sales turning over!

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd even think that the manufacturers get together so that they don't really care who gets the "new" sale because they know that, overall, the marque leavers and joiners will even out.

Andy.

[Alan02]

The sealed for life quote is, as mentioned above, only for the warranty period. If your not going to replace oils on any mechanical unit your going to hit problems.

[gazza57]

I see what you're saying alan02 but then really a gearbox oil change should appear in the service schedule, it doesn't not on Tiptronic gearboxes anyway.
If you ask the dealer to change it you get a "sealed for life" response which is code for they don't want to do it because its complicated and difficult and quite simply they're not set up for it.
I have learnt possibly in the hardest way possible (ie through the wallet) that everything you get told by a main dealer should be questioned, everything.
From their point of view it's a win win situation, don't change the gearbox oil, because it's too much of a faff, let the box fail and charge for a new gearbox (around £7k I'm told).

I must accept responsibility for not going elsewhere and getting it changed, but put quite simply I shouldn't have to do that, if there's a requirement for the gearbox oil to be changed as part of a planned service regime to ensure the longevity of the vehicle, then it should be part of the servicing schedule, end of.
The dealers are always carping on about how important it is to ensure an "approved" dealer carry out your servicing, if you follow that rationale, then you either accept that they are happy not to bother and let your box fail, OR you go to unauthorised persons and get it changed.
The new S Tronic gearboxes require fluid changes every 38000 miles, they are in my opinion nowhere near as good as a Tiptronic ZF box.

I shall have to pay at least £4300 to get this job done, the small crumb of satisfaction I will gain however is know that not one single penny will cross the main dealers palm.

Gazza57

[AndyN01]

This would make a very interesting Small Claims Court claim.

£4300 is way less than the £10K that is the limit.

The difficulty might be to get an "expert" report to back up the claim that the oil is no longer doing its job which has led to the failure. The lack of a scheduled oil change and the "sealed for life" statements would, I think, support the view that there was no reason to change the oil and IF the failure is due to a failure in the lubrication it would seem quite reasonable to expect the components to last a significant length of time. The car is not yet 4 years old and IMHO 92K miles isn't astronomical for a 3 litre diesel car.

Or, failing an "oil failure" report, something to say that this is not simply reasonable "wear and tear" because I don't reckon wear and tear is going to form the basis of a successful claim.

But with a written report from say, the Tiptronic specialist (or similar appropriately qualified engineer such as the AA or RAC), it would be fascinating to see which way a Judge decided.

If the Judge decides for you then you might get all/some of your £4300 back. ;)

Just a thought and maybe something to look into?

Good Luck

Andy.

[mrmarc]

Hi Gazza57,

Can i ask what 3.0tdi engine do you have? is the 218,272 or 313ps bitdi?

regards

[gazza57]

Hi its the 272ps

Regards

Gazza57

[mrmarc]

Hi its the 272ps

Regards

Gazza57

Hi, isn't that engine mated to a s tronic gearbox and not a tiptronic?

Regards

[Alan02]

Hi Gazza, I understand your predicament and agree that the Gearbox should appear on the service schedule. I cant see why they would be adverse to changing a ZF gearbox oil when they already carry out S-Tronic oil changes.

I have my S-tronic serviced at a Gearbox specialists and they have showed me invoices Audi give their customers for `attempted` solutions to gearbox problems and they were astronomic. The specialists did the required work much cheaper and fixed the problem, not just try to!

The dealers are quick to remind you of an (easy money) Air con service you dont need every two years or so.

I would try a recommended Gearbox specialist.

[gazza57]

Mrmarc
You are absolutely correct, I have checked it is an STronic gearbox which should have its fluid changed every 38000, it was advertised as a tip box but it never was
To discover that had I had the fluid changed at 76000 (it was changed at 38000) I bought it at 43000 it would have been fine makes me even madder!
Theres no mention of changing auto gearbox oil at all in my servicing schedule
In the end the buck stops with me, but I shall never take anything from a dealer as read ever again.

Gazza57

[AndyN01]

[QUOTE=gazza57;1106726......., it was advertised as a tip box but it never was.......Gazza57[/QUOTE]

And that adds another layer to a possible claim - Goods not as described.

And I'm struggling with the idea that "we" are expected to go beyond the instructions that we've been given i.e There's no mention of changing auto gearbox oil at all in my servicing schedule.

Surely all "we" can do is follow the service schedule "we" have been given. However, a garage/dealer may have "new" information and surely they should inform "us" when "we" have a service if something has been changed/added.

This might be worth a read:

Consumer Rights Act 2015 - Which? Consumer Rights (https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act)

Andy.


(https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act)

[Wombatwilson]

My A6 is 2014 2.0 TDI ultra with the Stronic and it has been making some sort of grinding noises when stopping and going into 1st which only lasts for about 5-10 seconds and doesn't do it all the time, I had it serviced recently and asked if it had any services before but they said that it hadn't (now on 61,000). I asked why they hadn't serviced it and was advised that it was down to the customer.
Was there any sort of noises before it failed?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[AndyN01]

........ I asked why they hadn't serviced it and was advised that it was down to the customer........Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

And presumably they've written that in the Service Record to show that something that should have been done under the schedule hasn't been done because the customer asked them not to?

Sounds like utter rubbish to me.

What's actually recorded in the Service Record? Did she have a 38K service and if so are there any notes/comments etc?

Surely the stamp/signature/date/mileage shows that the schedule was carried out precisely as detailed by the manufacturer? So the 38K service includes the appropriate S-tronic oil change? Otherwise when we buy a car with a "Service History" we have no idea what has actually been done while paying a premium for the provenance? And, presumably, any warranty claim can be binned because the service(s) might not have been done correctly?

Maybe they were making a joke?

Andy.

[french_audi]

So what are the costs involved in getting these different types of gearboxes serviced? Audi are going to get a bad reputation with this sort of nonsense. With so many people doing lease hire the problem is only going to get worse for those buying on the used market

[Gazwould]

They've been caught even selling Audi Approved vehicles with cars serviced outside the LongLife interval .

[Artiglio]

Yep, i looked at an A7 at an audi main s- tronic box had not been serviced ( car was at 42k) , audi said it’d be done before sale and that it was close enough to not affect the warranty, i asked for that in writing and that perhaps the gear box should get an extended warranty , nothing more than silence and a blank look in return.

it’s the whole thing about what does a full service history mean, all the history to back up whats been done, or , a full history confirming everything has been done according to the manufacturers schedule.

[Whippy53]

It clearly states in my handbook that the oil should be changed every 38k. I find it incredible that a dealer is not aware that this car has never been sold with the tiptronic box. ��

[stuart]

I own a Skoda Superb with the DSG gearbox which i 5 years old (owned from new)but only covered 32000 miles..

Last month it went in for service, MOT, brake fluid change and timing belt kit/water pump due to the recommended Skoda 5 years/80000 miles service interval...

When I enquired for the costs in January this year as I knew both my cars are the same age and both Skoda's, the other a Rapid, and both due similar things at 5 years, I requested the cost of everything below apart from the DSG service as I knew that the others were due, but the dealer actually stated that it needed servicing so I suppose it is also down to the dealer actually knowing there products and what is/is not required each time..

Service - £169.00inc VAT (Fixed price)
MOT - £39.00inc VAT (Fixed price)
Timing belt inc water pump, tensioners, rollers and all associated parts - £569.00inc VAT (Discounted as retail price is £664.00inc VAT)

Also due after 5 years is a brake fluid change - £54.00inc VAT (then due every 2 years) (Fixed price)
Also with your vehicle being DSG, the DSG oil and filter change is due every 40000 miles. As far as I can see on the service record this hasn’t been done before. Priced at £178.00inc VAT (Fixed price)

BEFORE anyone says anything, I know I could get these a LOT cheaper using one of the excellent independents but I have always used the dealer lol ;)

[Akash]

So what are the costs involved in getting these different types of gearboxes serviced? Audi are going to get a bad reputation with this sort of nonsense. With so many people doing lease hire the problem is only going to get worse for those buying on the used market

A7 272 paired as mentioned with the s-tronic.
S tronic Oil and Filter change @ 37700 miles last year = £187.49
ATF: £78.30
Gear Oil : 13.50 x 7
Filter : 8.70 x1
Seal Ring: 1x 7.83
Washer: 1 x 2.15

Hope that helps!