A7 3.0TDI Engine Rattle

[Uxair]

Hi All

I'm in dire need of help and having searched the forum for my specific problem without avail I am compelled to create a new thread hoping for any assistance and guidance while also duly apologising if I have missed any such threads or listed in the wrong section altogether.

I recently bought an 2015 A7 (facelift) from a company. It was part of their fleet and came with FASH. It is relatively high mileage with 138K and the last service was only 2 months ago at 136K. I made a stupid mistake and in my infinite wisdom bought the car without viewing as I was unable to travel so took their word for it as they seemed rather genuine and arranged for collection and delivery via a transport company. The car was delivered on the back of a truck last week and I immediately regretted the purchase when it was started and rolled down the truck onto my drive.

Upon contacting Poole Audi yesterday (where it has been maintained throughout) it transpired that the car was brought in for engine noise not too long ago and they sent me an email to confirm that their diagnosis was that it requires a new camshaft, timing chain and tensioners at an estimate of £4K - £6K based on a 'listening assessment'! As bad as the rattling is this too is preposterous... And I'm not entirely sure if it even is all that...

The actual noise itself is VERY loud constant rattling and grinding both on start up and while driving and varies in intensity. It sounds extremely scary. My VCDS shows no errors and there are no warnings or lights on dash.

Mark at IVS Huddersfield says he can't identify the fault nor can he do this job and has to be done by a dealership. Has advised I don't drive it at all.

I understand and appreciate this may well be a big job but any help pointing me in the right direction to a competitive garage / individual locally in Huddersfield will be highly appreciated. I've been to 3 garages so far and they can't seem to establish the source of this horrendous rattle. All were in agreement though that it is louder at back of the engine towards the passenger side...

I've booked it in with Peter Ellam Motor Engineers for Thursday for their diagnosis too and holding my breath again...

Has anyone else experienced this issue and could they please guide with the fix if there is one...

Thanking you all in anticipation.

Uzair

[jonathanfenton]

I think I’d be demanding my money back if they had had that diagnosed and sold it without disclaiming it to you!

[Uxair]

I did yesterday and they said they will get back to me today. Ideally I'd like to keep the car and get some sort of partial refund or pay towards the work. They said they can possibly agree on that but will let me know today. Fingers crossed.

[jonathanfenton]

I bought the same car recently and whilst mechanically it appears sound with FASH the exterior seems to have been poorly maintained. Ex lease cars are such a gamble. It had been detailed to hide the damage to the paintwork and now as I’ve been washing and waxing it’s true colours are staring to show where as the A3 I bought as a 3 year old ex lease is still looking amazing and comes up better than the A7 and the A3 is now 13 years old!

Can’t assist on the noise sorry but hopefully you get reimbursed for it.

[Crasher]

£6k is about the typical cost IF done before actual failure, it is an engine or gearbox out job, whichever way the tech prefers to do it, for me engine out. If they jump its new engine time as the damage is catastrophic, a genuine unit is £10.5K plus installation. The cause of this is the stupid long life oil chnage intervals, modern oil does not protect the chains. There are two TPI's pertaining to chain problems with the EA897 engine, 20433172/1 and 2041591/6, you should get your garage to follow these two to properly asses the job to use as evidence for a full or partial refund. Being as you live inside the M25 I am not sure investing in a non EU6 complaint diesel is a good idea.

[Uxair]

I just received a call back from them. They offered to give me a £1000 refund and requested my bank details for an immediate transfer of funds. I've said whilst I appreciated this I'd like to get an estimate from an independent specialist garage (not dealership) and then get back to them. They said if I do that then they can split the bill 50/50 up to a capped limit of £1200 as a gesture of goodwill.

Any help or recommendations for a credible specialist garage anyone please?

jonathanfenton The car is immaculate cosmetically. Haven't been so lucky mechanically though. Sigh.

[Uxair]

Woah!!! :'(

[jonathanfenton]

Well Crasher is your man and if he says it’s around the £6k mark he won’t be far off. I’d be asking for a refund as it was mis-sold to you. Unless you find a local indi that would do it as a side project in between jobs which will lower your labour bill. My local guy is a generic mechanic and I’ve seen an A6 down to its component parts, engine in a million pieces and he said he was doing it in his spare time something to do with a plastic part in the EGR that had broken free and was inside a cylinder. Should have seen the state of the pistons.

Good luck!

[Uxair]

£6k is about the typical cost IF done before actual failure, it is an engine or gearbox out job, whichever way the tech prefers to do it, for me engine out. If they jump its new engine time as the damage is catastrophic, a genuine unit is £10.5K plus installation. The cause of this is the stupid long life oil chnage intervals, modern oil does not protect the chains. There are two TPI's pertaining to chain problems with the EA897 engine, 20433172/1 and 2041591/6, you should get your garage to follow these two to properly asses the job to use as evidence for a full or partial refund. Being as you live inside the M25 I am not sure investing in a non EU6 complaint diesel is a good idea.

Woah!!! :'(

[Crasher]

Message me the reg number

[Crasher]

And they have the nerve to call this a full Audi service history.... 30k without an oil change!

Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2018-12-20 133630 mi
Additional work 2018-07-11 118773 mi (brake fluid, Ad Blue, cabin filter)
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2018-07-09 118773 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2018-01-06 99410 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2017-04-21 73761 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2016-06-17 43984 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2015-11-20 24850 mi

Interestingly it is EU6+ so ULEV OK.

[Uxair]

And they have the nerve to call this a full Audi service history.... 30k without an oil change!

Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2018-12-20 133630 mi
Additional work 2018-07-11 118773 mi (brake fluid, Ad Blue, cabin filter)
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2018-07-09 118773 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2018-01-06 99410 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2017-04-21 73761 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2016-06-17 43984 mi
Service record Inspection with Oil change (flexible) 2015-11-20 24850 mi

Interestingly it is EU6+ so ULEV OK.

Crasher, could you please help me with the engine number / code and what BHP this car is? Am I right to assume it is 245BHP? Thank you.

[Crasher]

No, it is the 218BHP/160Kw CRTE..... why?

[Uxair]

No, it is the 218BHP/160Kw CRTE..... why?

Looking for more grounds to put a fight up for returning and receiving a full refund. I did read 160Kw on the service handbook but still thought it was 245BHP. I had a 13 Reg A6 3.0 TDI Quattro before this purchase and the engine was so quiet. Nothing like this one. I'm so gutted.

[Crasher]

I am surprised Audi did not void the warranty at the first service never mind the second. This all backs up what I have said for decades, FSH means ********!

[KevTrem]

If I was you I'd return for a full refund and treat it as a lesson learned. Looking at that service history first service was 5k late, another was 10k late and others nearly 5k late. Last owner/user has killed that car. I drive the 218bhp in an Allroad and the engine is as quiet as my last C7.
Has the gearbox been serviced correctly, my guess is probably not as the rest of the car hasn't been.

[Crasher]

We are just doing the head on a 2010 Ibiza Bochanegra with worn valves guides and low compression. As a precaution we are doing a full chain set including the oil pump itself. At low mileage (can't see at the moment, battery off) the timing chain and gears are completely worn out and the oil pump chain tensioner disintegrated in my lads fingers. This is down to three factors, removing the metal additives (such as ZDDP) from the oil and the use of Hy-Vo® chains instead of the old roller versions. Add to that systematic huge abuse of oil changes intervals and what you get are destroyed engines that would have lasted three times as long if looked after and run on proper oil.

[jonathanfenton]

Not much your joe blog guy can do apart from use the oils that match VAG spec and follow their service schedule, I thought they monitored the oil quality and advised you when it’s degraded enough to warrant changing?

I suppose changing oil and filter more often is all we can do?

[Crasher]

Where there are any wiping surfaces, we need different oil. What is needed is an additive which will protect wiping surfaces such as flat tappet cams and non roller chains but not damage the cat/lambda sensor if the engine burns oil. Liqui Molly were supposed to be working on something.

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P000017/3721-CeraTec-34.0-en.pdf

[jonathanfenton]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190521/ea5ba5c0cea65e058f1b46dceb66d90e.jpg

Still not entirely sure why they would split inspection with oil change. Surely the two go hand in hand?

[Crasher]

Marketing to the company who buys the car when new, the next owner does not matter even a tiny amount, new car sales are all that count. If ever you get time to look at these values in adaptation using VCDS you will see that oil change is shown as inspection and inspection as service, or something like that back to front, messes with my head each time I have to set one up so I have given up and use ODIS as my time is too precious to spend half an hour trying to sort out the screen readings so the customer doesn’t freak out.

[Whippy53]

This variable service malarkey is the worst possible thing you can have, designed for company car / lease buyers who drive it for three years then get shot just before it does the inevitable Mills bomb impersonation. I see people (on this forum) who pay £40k for a car then try and save a few quid on servicing, madness!

[AT.]

Still not entirely sure why they would split inspection with oil change. Surely the two go hand in hand?

Not at all. The two figures refers to different things. The oil change interval depends on the oil you use, for example the regular, or the long term oil. The service interval refers to the next mandatory inspection, fe. gearbox oil change, or brake fluid change, or the engine check period. These figures are split because the oil change interval depends on you driving style, and the start/stop times, but the regular services doesn't depends on it.

So, as you can clearly see on your system, even if you drive very small ammount of milage, you have to have an ispection in 142 days (fe. gearbox check, or Audi mobility service renewal period), but with your driving style, the engine oil could last for 458 days.

By this, you will know in advance, that there will be no need for an oil change on your next service inspeciton.

Of course, if you drive very fast, or very long journeys, or the maximum period for the oil change is coming, than the two figures will be absolutely the same, as if you will need an oil change, than the next service interval will be the very same as the next oil change mileage/remaining time.

[shabazmo]

Uzair, what did you pay for the car and was the company you bought it from a dealer, a lease company or was it just the company that owned the car. I have to say having read the posts, you car will have lots more expensive problems in addition to a chain replacement. I would reject the car and fight hard for your money back. When buying a second hand car. Speak to a solicitor. Sometimes a letter from a solicitor can do the trick as no Company wants a litigation case.

when buying a car, its all about "condition." My A7 which I have had from new has 130k miles and runs beautifully. It has oil changes and a flush every 10k miles. I still use long life 3 oil but I think Crasher recommends and different grade which I forgot which one. The late oil change you car has will reveal other expensive problems in future months/years.

Sorry about my negative views.

[Crasher]

LL3 is fine and is what I use on my Octavia and 10k intervals should work but if I had a car with full chain timing (mine is just inter cam) I would run an additive.

[ev996]

LL3 is fine and is what I use on my Octavia and 10k intervals should work but if I had a car with full chain timing (mine is just inter cam) I would run an additive.You have been answering many problems over the years,and doing it expertly,and a nottm lad,me 30 yes VW,nottm,retired now,but still keeping my hand in,like fitting 3 pistons to a 1:4 polo bud engine I bought thinking it was a tappet [emoji849] 72 laying on the floor isn't funny these days,ha ha,keep it up[emoji4] everett.hickling pastures..

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk

[Crasher]

55 and it is starting to hurt even with a 2 post. Got to do some A3 rear brakes now.

[Uxair]

Just wrote a really long reply and then got a message saying Token Expired when submitting it. *Face Palm*.

Trying again. Bear with.

[Uxair]

Okay, very briefly:

Paid £13.7K for it. Bought from a company that bought it for a member of staff from Poole Audi and sold it as staff was due an upgrade. The spec sheet lists £14K worth of extras on the spec sheet. I did think it was a bargain but did not buy the car as spares and repairs.

I do intend to pursue legal action. Dropped car off with Huddersfield Audi this morning to get an exhaustive list of repairs to quote when asking for a complete refund which they have said they will not entertain but still stand on their commitment of paying £1200 towards repairs.

Let's see how this goes. Audi UK would not entertain me as it was a private sale and is not Audi Approved 'endorsed'.

This is going to be a long battle. Hopefully not. Sigh.

[Alan02]

You can reject a purchase within 30 days if not as described/fit for purpose etc etc. No need to accept a repair. I would be taking action.

[shabazmo]

The 30 day rule does not apply as it is not a trade sale but a private one between a Company (whose business is not selling cars) and an individual. But if the sale is not as described then that rule applies to a private sale as well.

[shabazmo]

Any more news.

[shabazmo]

LL3 is fine and is what I use on my Octavia and 10k intervals should work but if I had a car with full chain timing (mine is just inter cam) I would run an additive.

I was on the Liqui Moly stand at Automechanika and they suggested CERATEC. Does anyone have any experience of this.

[Crasher]

I could not go as I was upto my neck in work but that is what I have seen recommended BUT it would take a set of very carefully policed tests over hundreds of thousands of miles over a decade to even get close to being definitive. We have have down the wrong road and are about to turn off into an electric dead end...

[Uxair]

A winning update:

Firstly, my sincerest apologies for the unorthodox delay and absence from the thread. It has been a mad few weeks both at work and at home.

I got all my money back, no quibbles. The company arranged for the car to be picked up and made me an offer to buy the car from them as spares and repairs in the process and leave the car with me. We discussed the option, negotiated and after carefully working on the costs involved bought the car again at depreciated book value at a price that can genuinely be described as 'peanuts'. Got really lucky and came across an identical car with 18K miles Motor Hog was breaking and managed to get the complete engine, turbo, rad pack and gearbox for a very good price. This is now my project for the summer and will keep me and my 8 year old quite busy come July / August!

I, in the mean time, have ended up buying an A6 again but a BiTDI S Line BE this time.

😀😀😀

Thank you all so so much for all your help and support. I'll try and keep you all posted once I start on the A7. I intend to make a new thread when doing so and if allowed by the moderators.

P.S. I also recently found out when making enquiries with companies that sell parts and such (TPS, Audi Parts and Service, Euro Car Parts etc.) that NO company is willing to give part numbers to customers. I didn't realise they were guarded so fiercely despite them being listed on the actual parts anyway.

[Crasher]

Don't worry. I will give you the part numbers.

[Uxair]

Don't worry. I will give you the part numbers.

Crasher, mate, THANK YOU SO MUCH! Words fail me when trying to express my gratitude but please know you and your gestures are highly appreciated. Thanks a million!!

[Uxair]

Hi! Could someone please help me with the following part for this project? Is it a dealer only part as I can't seem to find a new one from third party retailers other than TPS?

0B5 105 317 T

I've come across a lot of different letter endings when scouring through eBay but not T...

It's a dual mass fly wheel for this car.

Making a start on the project! :D

[Crasher]

That is the correct one for a CRTE engine, it is not available aftermarket.