Help - 2002 Audi A3 1.8t Quattro ARY engine code - Rough Idle - Fault code P1340 - Help

[mumutley]

Hi All

Help - 2002 Audi A3 1.8t Quattro ARY engine code - Rough Idle - Help

A few days ago the tick over started fluctuating between 700rpm > 1200rpm and very rough - when driving above 2500rpm all seems good

:1zhelp: Checked fault codes with Vagcom - P1340 Camshaft position sensor - Engine speed sensor - Incorrect correlation? :1zhelp:

Checked cambelt timing all OK
Checked internal cam chain drive all OK

Replaced camshaft sensor - fault still there :aargh4:
Replaced crankshaft sensor - fault still there :aargh4:

Carried out oil and filter change - incase the oil pressure was affecting the internal cam chain tensioner - fault still there :aargh4:

Anyone got any ideas please?

Thanks

[mumutley]

Update been out to the car and it would not start!!
Checked fault codes and P1340 present!!
Clear code engine started and ran OK for a few seconds then the lumpy tick over returned
Drove the car round the block checked fault codes now I have:
(16725) P0341 Camshaft sensor implausible signal ?
(17748) P1340 camshaft position sensor / engine speed sensor - inco correlation
(16684) P0300 random multiple cylinder misfire detected
(16685) P0301 cylinder 1 misfire detected
(16686) P0302 cylinder 2 misfire detected

It looks like my poor car as going from bad to worse, please HELP

[Crasher]

Your sump pick up is blocked, stop running it or you will kill the turbo and then the engine, if you haven't already.

[mumutley]

Many thanks Crasher


Your sump pick up is blocked, stop running it or you will kill the turbo and then the engine, if you haven't already.

Sugar - OK thanks I will be busy this evening to then. Do I need any special tools to remove the sump?

A quick question though, how does this cause the fault/faults I am seeing? (I am just curious as to why)

[mumutley]

Hi @Crasher (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=6324) / All

Sump removed cleaned, oil pick up removed cleaned, pick up refitted, sump refitted. Clean new oil and filter
Start up left to run for 10>15 minutes same fault codes present:


Checked fault codes and P1340 present!!
Clear code engine started and ran OK for a few seconds then the lumpy tick over returned
Drove the car round the block checked fault codes now I have:
(16725) P0341 Camshaft sensor implausible signal ?
(17748) P1340 camshaft position sensor (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_nkw=camshaft+position+sensor) / engine speed sensor - incorrect correlation

Removed valve cover, inlet camshaft, cam chain, cam chain tensioner. Installed new cam chain and tensioner

Startup left to run for 10>15 minutes, same fault codes present:

Checked fault codes and P1340 present!!
Clear code engine started and ran OK for a few seconds then the lumpy tick over returned
Drove the car round the block checked fault codes now I have:
(16725) P0341 Camshaft sensor implausible signal ?
(17748) P1340 camshaft position sensor (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_nkw=camshaft+position+sensor) / engine speed sensor - incorrect correlation


Could it be there is a fault with the oil pump??

Please any help / suggestions

[Crasher]

You need to check the oil pressure at idle, I suspect you have damaged crank bearings, I have seen this a lot on the 1.8T and now we are seeing it on the 2.0T, twice last week alone, I have a 2012 TT 2.0T sitting at work ready for next week, low oil pressure caused the turbo to snap its shaft.

[FrenchAudi]

I seem to be hearing about more and more problems possibly related to 1.8T oil pickup problems.

I'm in the process of fitting an oil pressure gauge - don't know why so few cars seem to have them.

mumutley, could you please post your current mileage and what oil change interval you follow?

[Crasher]

For some odd reason it is more of a problem on the longitudinal installation engines than transverse, I can’t decide if it is air flow related or the shallow rear surface as that does seem to be where the sludge is generated but changing the oil every 9000 miles and using the best money can buy seems to stop it occurring.

[FrenchAudi]

For some odd reason it is more of a problem on the longitudinal installation engines than transverse, I can’t decide if it is air flow related or the shallow rear surface as that does seem to be where the sludge is generated but changing the oil every 9000 miles and using the best money can buy seems to stop it occurring.

Fingers crossed then. I'm using fully synthetic Shell Helix Ultra 5W40, and from now on intend changing the oil and filter every 8,000 km (5,000 miles), which for me is about once a year.

Changes so far have been made at 7,000, 5,100 and 4,400 miles.

[Crasher]

I do mine and Mrs Crashers once a year (both a 1.8T) and use Quantum Longlife which is now made by Fuchs, I do barely 3k and her about 5 and both engines are spotless inside the sump as I also use a probe.

[mumutley]

You need to check the oil pressure at idle, I suspect you have damaged crank bearings, I have seen this a lot on the 1.8T and now we are seeing it on the 2.0T, twice last week alone, I have a 2012 TT 2.0T sitting at work ready for next week, low oil pressure caused the turbo to snap its shaft.

Hi Crasher

How and where do I check the oil?
Can I remover the oil pressure switch and install a oil pressure gauge there?
What sort of pressure should I see?
Thanks

[mumutley]

I seem to be hearing about more and more problems possibly related to 1.8T oil pickup problems.

I'm in the process of fitting an oil pressure gauge - don't know why so few cars seem to have them.

mumutley, could you please post your current mileage and what oil change interval you follow?

Hi FrenchAudi

The current mileage is 106,000 miles. I purchased the car with 100,000 miles and service history to 88,000 and an odd couple of receipts after this mileage for oil and filter (but no details entered in the services book) So when I purchased the car I completed a oil and filter change at 100,000 miles using full synthetic oil. Since the fault occurred its also had another oil and filter change completed at 106,000 miles.

You mention you are fitting a oil pressure gauge, could you say how and where? (what pressure should I expect to see?)
Thanks

[FrenchAudi]

Thanks for the info'.

I bought an M10 M x M10 F x 1/8" NPT F fitting from Speedograph Richfield, which screws into the M10 F hole where the normal oil pressure switch fits. The oil pressure switch goes into the female end, and the 1/8" NPT M sender for the Chinese oil pressure gauge I bought on Ebay goes into the side of the fitting. I don't care much about the accuracy of the gauge, I'm only interested in any change from the reading I normally get.

According to my Bentley manual, the pressure should be 1.0 to 3.5 bar at idle, and 5.0 to 7.0 bar at 3,000 rpm, with oil temperature at approx. 80ºC.

[Crasher]

Speedgraph Ritchfield at at the top of the road where Roy in our office lives, they make special handbrake cables for us. To test the pressure you need an M10 non tapered adapter for whichever gauge you use. The VAG book says 2 Bar at 2000rpm @ 80 degrees is the absolute minimum but I have found that you need to see at least 3 Bar at that point and at least 1.5 Bar at idle fully hot, preferably a bit more.

[mumutley]

Thanks for the info'.

I bought an M10 M x M10 F x 1/8" NPT F fitting from Speedograph Richfield, which screws into the M10 F hole where the normal oil pressure switch fits. The oil pressure switch goes into the female end, and the 1/8" NPT M sender for the Chinese oil pressure gauge I bought on Ebay goes into the side of the fitting. I don't care much about the accuracy of the gauge, I'm only interested in any change from the reading I normally get.

According to my Bentley manual, the pressure should be 1.0 to 3.5 bar at idle, and 5.0 to 7.0 bar at 3,000 rpm, with oil temperature at approx. 80ºC.

Hi Crasher and FrenchAudi

Oil pressure gauge fitted:

At tick over gauge shows 1.8>2 bar

At 3100RPM gauge shows 4.2 bar (no fluctuation)

Am I right in thinking I have low oil pressure? and time to pull the sump off again:confused::aargh4:

I will wait for confirmation

Thanks

[FrenchAudi]

BTW. The thread for the oil pressure gauge on my (AEB) engine is M10 x 1 mm.
There are many Chinese made tees on Ebay described as 1/8" NPT Tee for tapping into oil pressure sender, with a diagram showing the 1/8" NPT connection on the side and M10 x 1, male and female, at each end. I suspect they are all from the same source.
I bought one, and found the end connections were M10 x 1.5.
The seller said they could not supply the item described, and offered to let me keep the fitting and make a refund of 30%, as they are liable for the return shipping, which is too expensive.
They suggested I could sell it to recoup my money.
I replied that I had no use for it, and would not accept a partial refund, and they refunded the full amount.
They have not changed the diagram with the wrong sizes. It does apparently fit some 2016 Audi petrol engines.
The adapter I bought from Speedograph Richfield Ltd is the only one I could find which was sure to have the correct threads, and it has :D

[Crasher]

If those are the fully hot engine oil pressure figures they are fine.

[mumutley]

If those are the fully hot engine oil pressure figures they are fine.

Hello Crasher

Unfortunately I have not got access to Vagcom today, I went off the coolant temp gauge in the car (instrument cluster) it was showing 90c, this is where it sits in normal usage.

Any further ideas please?

[FrenchAudi]

Hi Crasher and FrenchAudi

Oil pressure gauge fitted:

At tick over gauge shows 1.8>2 bar

At 3100RPM gauge shows 4.2 bar (no fluctuation)

Am I right in thinking I have low oil pressure? and time to pull the sump off again:confused::aargh4:

I will wait for confirmation

Thanks


My previous post was written while you were posting.

It seems you have slightly low oil pressure, but Crasher has far more experience with this issue on this engine than I have.

As you have already cleaned the oil pickup etc., this may be due to damaged bearings as he suggested, but could also be due to a faulty oil pressure relief valve or a worn oil pump.

As dropping your sump seems an easier job than on my car, it may be a good idea to replace your oil pump before looking at the crank bearings. You would probably replace the pump if you were putting in new bearings anyway.

[FrenchAudi]

I see I posted while Crasher was replying. As he says the pressure is fine, provided the engine is fully hot, I would suggest that a decision to replace the oil pump depends on how long you intend to keep the car, and, of course, the cost of the pump.

[mumutley]

Hi Guys (FrenchAudi Crasher)

I am going to drop the sump and remove/check the oil pump.

My intention with the car is to be a keeper for good (but if this continues who knows!!)

Thanks gents

[Crasher]

If you take the pump off, replace it. We did this on a 2003 Octavia L&K that had previously had pressure issues as the pickup strainer wash cut open and twice more so eventually we fitted a new Febi pump to try and keep the light off and.... it got worse. So we fitted a pump from Euro and it went back over where it had been but still the fault would register if we did a readiness code test so the car went to the breakers... If your pressure readings are accurate, they need to be as a relationship test between two is not important here, then there is nothing wrong with the pressure figures you show, they are quite decent. Whether that pressure is getting to the VVT unit is another matter and one difficult to test, well impossible really. What make of VVT unit did you fit, I have had some awful problems with aftermarket units from Euro made by JP group, they all failed... one wrote off a Leon Cupra R engine by bending all the inlet valves when one of the gallery blocking ball bearings blew out. All I will fit now is genuine but these are daft money at £596.74 but it is all that will work and if it fails within 2 years, VAG pick up the bill..... in theory..... I bought my Octavia VRS in 2008 with 121k on a rattling engine with smoking turbo and from experience I knew that it would never patch up so I fitted a genuine exchange engine and turbo and it now has 200k on it and is a faultless workhorse giving 220PS.

[mumutley]

If you take the pump off, replace it. We did this on a 2003 Octavia L&K that had previously had pressure issues as the pickup strainer wash cut open and twice more so eventually we fitted a new Febi pump to try and keep the light off and.... it got worse. So we fitted a pump from Euro and it went back over where it had been but still the fault would register if we did a readiness code test so the car went to the breakers... If your pressure readings are accurate, they need to be as a relationship test between two is not important here, then there is nothing wrong with the pressure figures you show, they are quite decent. Whether that pressure is getting to the VVT unit is another matter and one difficult to test, well impossible really. What make of VVT unit did you fit, I have had some awful problems with aftermarket units from Euro made by JP group, they all failed... one wrote off a Leon Cupra R engine by bending all the inlet valves when one of the gallery blocking ball bearings blew out. All I will fit now is genuine but these are daft money at £596.74 but it is all that will work and if it fails within 2 years, VAG pick up the bill..... in theory..... I bought my Octavia VRS in 2008 with 121k on a rattling engine with smoking turbo and from experience I knew that it would never patch up so I fitted a genuine exchange engine and turbo and it now has 200k on it and is a faultless workhorse giving 220PS.

Hi Crasher,

Thanks for all the help and guidance, the VVT unit (cam chain tensioner) was the best I could afford but not OEM, I can not stretch to just short of 600. I purchased it from Online car parts: Buy cheap auto spare parts and autoparts online (www.onlinecarparts.co.uk) I think it was a SWAG manufactured unit.
The one I removed was the original VAG unit which was showing ware on the top and bottom tensioning blades.
The oil pump fitted is a Febi unit.
Is it possible to run the engine with the valve cover removed? I am just hoping to observe the oil being pumped round where it should be?

I do like the Skoda Octavia VRS they look a cracking motor, I know my poor A3 is only a 2002 1.8T quattro, but I like them, but not at present. I have a tendency to run older Audi's (I just like them) and a more modern motorcycle when the weathers good.

Thanks

[Crasher]

Your A3 will have the same AUQ code engine as the VRS and yours puts all drive down to four wheels instead of setting fire to the fronts. SWAG is Febi (as is Blueprint) they withdrew that unit from sale due to problems so I am surprised you were able to buy one. As we experienced, the Febi pump dropped the pressure.

[mumutley]

Hi Crasher,

Not sure unless the SWAG unit was found laying around the warehouse!! Still listed on the website.

So I maybe over thinking everything by now, but it just want my car sorted, all was great till the missfire and fault codes all popped up.

So while all in bits should I put a new oil pump in, make sure sump clean again and keep my fingers crossed ?

Thanks

[Crasher]

You have good oil pressure from your figures so the problem lies elsewhere.

[FrenchAudi]

I'm beginning to wish I'd kept my Ro80, which is now sitting unused in a garage in Japan.

Here is a write-up from the guy who bought it storybreak stars<\/title><path d="M5.146 9.01l-.19-3.623 3.057 1.985.693-1.197-3.213-1.67 3.213-1.638-.693-1.197-3.056 1.953L5.147 0H3.76l.158 3.623L.893 1.67.2 2.867l3.214 1.638L.2 6.175l.693 1.197 3.025-1.985L3.76 9.01m21.386 0l-.19-3.623 3.057 1.985.693-1.197-3.213-1.67 3.213-1.638-.693-1.197-3.056 1.953.19-3.623H23.76l.158 3.623-3.025-1.953-.693 1.197 3.214 1.638-3.214 1.67.693 1.197 3.025-1.985-.158 3.623m21.386 0l-.19-3.623 3.057 1.985.693-1.197-3.213-1.67 3.213-1.638-.693-1.197-3.056 1.953.19-3.623H43.76l.158 3.623-3.025-1.953-.693 1.197 3.214 1.638-3.214 1.67.693 1.197 3.025-1.985-.158 3.623" fill="%23CCC" fill-rule="evenodd"/><\/svg>');background-repeat:no-repeat;background-position:center}.above-headline-image .video-embed__caption,.above-headline-image figcaption,.editor .editor-inner .video-embed__caption,.editor .editor-inner figcaption,.featured-post__featured-media-caption .video-embed__caption,.featured-post__featured-media-caption figcaption,.post-content .video-embed__caption,.post-content figcaption{position:relative;font-family:"ProximaNovaCond",sans-serif;color: (https://oppositelock.kinja.com/1973-nsu-ro80-the-oppo-review-1757258212)#7D7D7D (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=7D7D7D)

[FrenchAudi]

I'm beginning to wish I'd kept my Ro80, which is now sitting unused in a garage in Japan.

[mumutley]

I'm beginning to wish I'd kept my Ro80, which is now sitting unused in a garage in Japan.

Such a shame to just put a car in a garage and not use it,

Think the above post went a little strange?

[mumutley]

You have good oil pressure from your figures so the problem lies elsewhere.

Have you any further suggestions of where the problem lies, Maybe the new (cheap) tensioner??
Thanks

[Crasher]

Have you done an output test to see if it clicks and then a basic settings test of the VVT which is in the VCDS menu? I think it is group 112 off the top of my head.

[mumutley]

Have you done an output test to see if it clicks and then a basic settings test of the VVT which is in the VCDS menu? I think it is group 112 off the top of my head.

Crasher, thank you so much for the quick reply.
Unfortunately I have not got access to VCDS (Vagcom) at the moment, a friend borrowed it and they are away on holiday!! Does the VVT unit require the base setting test to be completed? (Like when a EGR valve is replaced)

Could I pin into the wires at the back of the VVT connector block? and measure the voltage? on each wire individually?
There are 2 wires in the connector block so I take they are both signal wires and the VVT unit uses the earth/ground from the engine.

Thanks

[FrenchAudi]

Such a shame to just put a car in a garage and not use it,

Yes, had I known it was going to a collector who would probably never drive it, I might not have sold it.

Despite Crasher's dismissal of possible development of the Wankel engine, my 19721 Ro80, albeit with a Hurley modified ca. 1980 Mazda engine, which I fitted in 2002, returned just over 25 mpg, compared with about 30 mpg for my current Audi A4 with the same driver and driving habits.

So the fuel burned per mile was comparable, and should be proportional to the CO2 emissions, which could be reduced with catalytic convertors, and the NOx emissions were very low.

That's not bad for old technology, I'm sure the emissions could have been improved, VAG certainly can be creative in that field.

However, Wankel engines had too bad a name from the start to resurrect, mainly due to NSU's poor decisions and awful and incompetent dealerships. Audi gave the Ro80 the coup de grace because it didn't fit their marketing strategy and was in competition with other models.


Think the above post went a little strange?

Yes, I posted a link to an article by the guy who bought the car, including a video of driving it through France the following day. I'll try again in a separate post.

[FrenchAudi]

Think the above post went a little strange?

I have edited out the mass of code that got in there somehow. The link does work.

[Crasher]

I would wait until you get your cable back but yes it is just a 12v solenoid, well I think it is 12v.... never checked.

[mumutley]

Hi All (Crasher / FrenchAudi)

Sorry for the delay, family break and stuff.

Right now for the update, put the little a3 back together, double checked everything, cambelt and chain timing etc.

Stand well back and start up WOW - YIPPEE all nice and good for a about 10 minutes, coming up to temp (at this point I have NOT touched the throttle pedal). I then hear a slight pop noise from front of engine, along with a makred increase of induction noise, at exactly this point the engine started running like a big bag of **** again!!!!!

Turned igition of, left it a couple of minutes while looking around I could see nothing obvoius loose or adrift. Started up again still running like a bag of ****, exactly how it was when i started this post.

So with engine running I have huntn around the intake system, inlet manifold, vac pipes etc, the noise is coming from under the inlet manifold directly behind the plate mounted on the manifold carrying the vac pipes and solnoids. Everything here looks ok. I remove the plate and behind it a plastic vacuum thingy looks like its popped apart. I trace it to the Y pipe on the right hand end of the inlet manifold and it looks like the Y pipe goes to the brake servo?

Remove vacuum thingy shove it back together refit, start car up all good.

What is this thingy and what does it do? (I rang Audi and they called is brake booster vacuum solnoid) and quoted over £80 + vat)

Photo below of the part on the car, it had popped apart at the join where the red line ends

35913

Thanks for all your help, suggestions and advise

[FrenchAudi]

On my engine, the large black rubber connection on the left of your picture goes, via a one-way valve, to the brake servo cylinder. The other end goes to the vacuum connection on the inlet manifold, and the connection going off at an angle goes to the crankcase breather system.
Maybe you should check the connection clips are tight. They may have come apart due to vibration or being accidentally moved, as there is suction in the pipes, not pressure to force them apart.
The piping looks similar to this:

35914

[Crasher]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32820377837_30085e825f_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S1e1Tp)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32820377927_3172f18ea1_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S1e1UX)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40798431903_d0e760a948_o.jpg

[mumutley]

WOW how many vacuum/breather pipes!! Bring back the old breather from the rocker box, which either went to a catch tank or straight to the atmosphere!!!

I think the parts I require is number 22 on the ARY intake system.

Why would such a little piece cause such head ache!!!!

[mumutley]

On my engine, the large black rubber connection on the left of your picture goes, via a one-way valve, to the brake servo cylinder. The other end goes to the vacuum connection on the inlet manifold, and the connection going off at an angle goes to the crankcase breather system.
Maybe you should check the connection clips are tight. They may have come apart due to vibration or being accidentally moved, as there is suction in the pipes, not pressure to force them apart.
The piping looks similar to this:

35914

All the clips look ok/are tight, it just looks like the large end cap (near the Y) of 058-133-753B just popped off!!!. For now it is shoved back in and all OK

Part number on ebay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fit-VW-AUDI-A4-A6-TT-100-VW-Bora-Golf-Passat-Seat-Suction-Pump-Vent-Purge-Valve/273020358781?hash=item3f9148107d:g:KKwAAOSwmNxaVya m
£6.99 bargain

[Crasher]

There are two versions, it changed at approximately VIN wauzzz8LzA1200000 from 058 133 753 B to 06A 133 751 AE. If it has the early unit, this is now part number 058 133 753 D and costs £33.70.

[FrenchAudi]

Maybe I need to add a couple of dozen bits of hose and connectors to my vacuum/intake/breather systems to make my engine run better:)