How to stop my Q7 from being robbed?

[MicaBlue]

Last week 11 Audi's were stolen from my small village. Mine was attempted but the young scum were chased off by a neighbour.

Having watched the CCTV from a number of village residents, it would seem that all they do is smash a window, connect OBD11 or similar then code in a spare key that they bring along with them and presumably reuse over and over.

The first one they did in the village took them 7 minutes but now they have got it down to just under 3.

The alarm goes off when they smash the window but appears to stop within seconds of connecting up the OBD dongle. You then see a lot of indicators flashing on the Q7 as they pair up the spare key then drive off in the vehicle.

We are on the flight path and so most of the village has triple glazing, consequently nobody heard the alarm go off.

My question is whether there is a way for me to prevent this at all, activating a code before anyone can access the OBD for instance? Maybe an easy lead I could remove that immobilises the vehicle (we used to remove the distributor cable in the old days). It seems like just a matter of time before mine goes as well as there really isn't anything to stop them.

The Police advised a steering lock, but ironically one of the vehicles had one and they just got a power tool out and removed it.

Seems we have a crime wave coming.....

[FortyPlus]

Not a good position to be in. If it was me, my immediate impulse would be to crudely disable the OBD port. I have not looked to see how it is physically located, but would it be possible to 1) hide it behind a panel & put a dummy port in the position 2) install a hidden disable switch for a one or more of key data-lines going to the port. 3) investigate some third party car alarm-immobilizer systems we all fitted in the 80's that will disable fuel supply/ engine management.

Trust you find something to allow you to sleep at night.

[Nemo78]

Jeez this is not good - I’ve read something on other forums about AutoGhost? Google that and have a look

[FortyPlus]

Jeez this is not good - I’ve read something on other forums about AutoGhost? Google that and have a look


NEW! Autowatch Ghost CANbus Immobiliser (https://autowatch.co.uk/products/security-solutions/autowatch-immobiliser-systems/68-ghost-product)


Interesting!

[wardienet]

Not good. Assumed Audi’s were vulnerable to this. On my prior Land Rover the manufacturer had blocked OBD cloning (I.e. not allowed a new key to be generated like that via the port) due to thefts. But of course the flip side is more hassle and cost when you need a new key.
If you don’t mind spending some £ then look at a tracker with a key card or key fob of some sort. This immobilises the engine unless the extra card/fob is present, hence making OBD port cloning or wireless keyless entry hacks useless. Basically someone has to physically get the key card or fob (nothing’s perfect) to take the car I.e. break in and find keys, card etc. Look for trackers that are Thatchem Category 5 (old standard for this) or MTS (new similar standard). PM me if you want more details - I’m not selling, I just looked into it recently.


Q7 MY16 272PS S-Line Tech/Tour/Trailer packs, orca black, 21 inch 9.5J rims, rotor grey leather, sunroof, BOSE, ambient lighting, reversing cam, drivers memory seat. Gtechniq Crystal Serum Ultra. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

[KevTrem]

A lot of the Focus and Fiesta owners are now using locks on the OBD ports as well as moving them. They also remove the live that's there too. The Fords I believe can be taken within 45seconds now. Have you thought about a wheel clamp as well as a steering lock? Other options include having a kill switch or going back to the days of a gearstick lock, so its locked in park.
These are all deterrents and wont stop them with jib or recovery truck.

Try speaking to your insurance company, see what they suggest and advise.

[eiw]

How about a sticker on the window saying "OBD port disabled"?

Best regards,
a naive Q7 owner in Norway :D

[Scott K]

There is a gizmo called an OBD saver which is a lock for the OBD port. Trouble is it doesn't stop windows getting broken!

[M1tchy]

Landmine?
Set up a sniper position over looking the car?
Electric fence connected to the mains?

I hate thieves


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[srbsq7]

I like your thinking M1tchy!

Not a nice thing to go through MicaBlue but I’m still in the camp of I’d rather wake up to find my car missing than some thug in the bedroom demanding the keys.

[john942s]

Surely any prevention steps you take could result in them coming to take the keys or anything else they need to take the car just like you would?
My S3 was stolen by them breaking into the house, whilst it was empty in the afternoon, to get the keys. But whilst talking to a locksmith he said that most car makers can now reduce the number of keys that can be coded through the OBD to 2. So thieves can’t enable an extra key to steal the vehicle. So that would be my first plan of action, plus a house security review.
Then consider either a visual deterrent like a disklok , or a monitored car alarm with tracking and remote immobilisation.


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[jmagee]

Not a nice situation. Scum the lot of them.

I would rather the car go than have someone break in for the keys but it does make you think. I think anything that makes it not worth their while is enough time move them on to the next one. Of course a fairly new Q7 will be worth a lot of trouble to them. I'd say a sticker saying obd disabled might not be the worst thing to do.

Good luck finding a solution.

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[Chesterfield313]

I just don't see thieves that are stealing cars through the OBD port becoming the standing over you in bed with a knife type thieves.

They have a nice non confrontational way of stealing cars, almost as many as they like, with reduced risk, and presumably reduced prison sentence against house invasion if caught. I suspect they'll just move onto the next if they can't get one specific car, not break in to the house.

I might buy a lock and put a sticker on.

[St3veM]

On most other models the OBD port it clicked in, get a socket and remote the panel (prob 2x 8mm bolts, remove and unclip the port and tuck it out of the way then reassemble). Also you should be able to link the car to a Your Audi website and then via an an (MMI Connect on iPhone) check its location in real time. HTH


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[maxw]

Not sure if this is any good but there seem to be steps to combat this

not that you should have to shell out to protect your car it should be down to the car manufactures

Audi Q7 obd Portector Advanced OBD Port Protection Anti Theft Security System – VW Parts International (https://vwpartsinternational.com/shop/security/audi-q7-obd-portector-advanced-obd-port-protection-anti-theft-security-system/)

M

[wardienet]

Not sure if this is any good but there seem to be steps to combat this

not that you should have to shell out to protect your car it should be down to the car manufactures

Audi Q7 obd Portector Advanced OBD Port Protection Anti Theft Security System – VW Parts International (https://vwpartsinternational.com/shop/security/audi-q7-obd-portector-advanced-obd-port-protection-anti-theft-security-system/)

M

Nice, but that starts to get into the kind of money for a tracker with engine immobilisation via fobs anyway, so you get that and much more functionality for similar $...


Q7 MY16 272PS S-Line Tech/Tour/Trailer packs, orca black, 21 inch 9.5J rims, rotor grey leather, sunroof, BOSE, ambient lighting, reversing cam, drivers memory seat. Gtechniq Crystal Serum Ultra. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

[andyhud007]

I've moved my odb port. It's pretty easy to do. That would be best bet in my view for least cost. Appreciate doesn't stop window being broken!

Andy

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[rowdy-999]

A good dog is worth its weight in gold. You don't even need a 'big' dog. One that alerts you to unusual activity/noises etc, and has a loud bark, and at least sounds 'aggressive'.

[ajtaylor82]

Does anyone know Audi’s position on the Autowatch Ghost? With regards to warranty or pcp?


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[wardienet]

A good dog is worth its weight in gold. You don't even need a 'big' dog. One that alerts you to unusual activity/noises etc, and has a loud bark, and at least sounds 'aggressive'.

As long as you don’t leave them in the Q7 for too long I suppose that works :-)


Q7 MY16 272PS S-Line Tech/Tour/Trailer packs, orca black, 21 inch 9.5J rims, rotor grey leather, sunroof, BOSE, ambient lighting, reversing cam, drivers memory seat. Gtechniq Crystal Serum Ultra. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

[Chesterfield313]

I've moved my odb port. It's pretty easy to do. That would be best bet in my view for least cost. Appreciate doesn't stop window being broken!

Andy

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Where to and how did you do it?

[FLAPPERJACK76]

How about removing fuse bf10 for the obd connector? Obviously when you park up and when leaving the vehicle.

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[ajtaylor82]

Is that gen flapper? Sounds like a cheaper alternative. I’m guessing most of these OBD/key cloning scumbags will do a runner after the alarm goes off and their little OBD device (that makes up for their lack of academic achievements) fails to disable the alarm.


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[FLAPPERJACK76]

Is that gen flapper? Sounds like a cheaper alternative. I’m guessing most of these OBD/key cloning scumbags will do a runner after the alarm goes off and their little OBD device (that makes up for their lack of academic achievements) fails to disable the alarm.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDon't see why not. Although the wiring diagram I just looked at was model year 2010-2015. I shall see what fuse is listed from 2015 onwards and post.

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[andyhud007]

Where to and how did you do it?Just took it off trim and got small extension odb cable and connected it to that and then the other end is now somewhere else in the car. The original connector is deep inside the dash trim now. Yes it could be pulled out to connect the dongle to it but you'd need to remove a fair amount of trim to do it and I don't think theives would take that amount of time

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[muumipeikko]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but why on earth would Audi or any other car manufacturer put something like disabling an alarm/immobilizer on a port anyone with a bit of tech knowledge and £20 for an ebay wire can use?

Lets say I lost my keys and need Audi to break in and cut me a new set, that the sort of thing I'm quietly happy when they tell me it a big job and going to take a while and needs car to be taken to a garage...

[Sportingmac]

I use Autowatch Ghost Immobiliser - and set it to start but not engage gear. Works a treat.

[andyhud007]

That looks pretty cool to be fair... I'm going to look into that.

[anemeth]

Andy,

This is an other option, same but cheaper from Germany:

CAN Bus Immobilizers (https://www.ampire.de/CAN-Immobilizer.htm?shop=ampire_en&a=catalog&p=30552)

[andyhud007]

Great stuff, thanks for sharing Anemeth!

Andy

[ajtaylor82]

FLAPPERJACK76 any luck with the fuse? AndyHUD do you have access to any wiring diagrams? I’m guess that the fact the OBD port provides a 12v power source then it must be fused to avoid damage to the car’s electrical system. I’ve checked the manual and there’s no fuse listed. I’m guessing it’s subtly imbedded with another item. I’m hoping the wiring diagram might be our solution. Even if it just to remove the fuse when leaving the car at an airport etc.


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[ajtaylor82]

I must add that the idea of these CANbus devices is brilliant it’s just Audi won’t like it as the car is PCP. Can you just remove them before you sell the car or do they make permanent changes to firmware etc?


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[anemeth]

I must add that the idea of these CANbus devices is brilliant it’s just Audi won’t like it as the car is PCP. Can you just remove them before you sell the car or do they make permanent changes to firmware etc?

No change to the car software at all. The device needs only +12V, ground and connection to the can bus (4 connection alltogether). If it is disconnected, the car goes back to original state.

[KevTrem]

Can these devices be placed anywhere within the car or do they need to be next to ECU?
If they have to be next to ECU then nothing stops the thief from removing the device to start the car with a cloned key. Also what's the insurance companies take on these things? Be interesting to hear if thy are in favour of these or not.
Reading into them they appear to be a modern version of the old kill switch linked to ignition coil and hidden away somewhere.

[ajtaylor82]

Can these devices be placed anywhere within the car or do they need to be next to ECU?
If they have to be next to ECU then nothing stops the thief from removing the device to start the car with a cloned key. Also what's the insurance companies take on these things? Be interesting to hear if thy are in favour of these or not.
Reading into them they appear to be a modern version of the old kill switch linked to ignition coil and hidden away somewhere.

Anywhere the CANBus runs is my understanding, which is a lot of the car. Just need a 12V source as well.


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[ajtaylor82]

andyhud007 are you going to take the plunge Andy? The autowatch one obviously comes with installation. It looks as though the German one is just delivered. Is this a sensible DIY project?


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[anemeth]

@andyhud007 (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=137388) are you going to take the plunge Andy? The autowatch one obviously comes with installation. It looks as though the German one is just delivered. Is this a sensible DIY project?

OK, I am not Andy:), but I ordered one and it is on the way. I had emailed the German firm with couple of questions, they can answer in English and the installation manual/owner manual are in English too (I cannot speak German). Also I found out that the general magager of this firm has an Audi Q7 (4M), his car is shown in the instruction videos.

[ajtaylor82]

OK, I am not Andy:), but I ordered one and it is on the way. I had emailed the German firm with couple of questions, they can answer in English and the installation manual/owner manual are in English too (I cannot speak German). Also I found out that the general magager of this firm has an Audi Q7 (4M), his car is shown in the instruction videos.

Nice work anemeth. Are you planning to install it yourself?


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[anemeth]

Yes, I do. We will see how it will turn out....

[ajtaylor82]

Yes, I do. We will see how it will turn out....
anemeth would you mind taking photos during the install? Install location, how you spliced the CANbus connection etc. Feeling a bit nervous about doing this. Thanks


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[stuart]

Landmine?
Set up a sniper position over looking the car?
Electric fence connected to the mains?

I hate thieves


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Like the idea.... but lets face it the thieves have more rights than the owner, if you hurt one of the poor little tow rags whilst they are damaging or stealing your property that is wrong and against the law ..... yeah right!

[stuart]

@anemeth (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=235356) would you mind taking photos during the install? Install location, how you spliced the CANbus connection etc. Feeling a bit nervous about doing this. Thanks


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Would advise using the PM or email system to send any pictures or install details, not wise to make it public, but up to you ;)

[ajtaylor82]

Would advise using the PM or email system to send any pictures or install details, not wise to make it public, but up to you ;)
stuart anemeth no worries at all. Perhaps the wiring ones could go in here that don’t show the location and we can PM or email the more detailed ones. Thanks


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[andyhud007]

I'm Andy.

Im tempted to do this but haven't ordered yet.

The canbus is dotted all over the car so you can install in numerous locations.

Good luck Anemeth.

Andy.

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[muumipeikko]

One thing I have been wondering is any one with a >17 model automatically has the embedded SIM which reports back to Audi HQ and you MMI app where the car is parked. I know this can be deactivated via the MMI app on the car but it strikes me Audi must be able to override this if your car got stolen which would be the great Win-win in the sense The police would have the exact location of where the scumbag has parked your car, you would have to fancy in a lock-up with other stolen cars.

[anemeth]

For 20 pounds one can buy a GMS jammer, thus no more location data.

[Gyro]

For 20 pounds one can buy a GMS jammer, thus no more location data.

My insurance company told me I had to get a tracker fitted as a condition of them insuring me - I've got a "Tracker Locate" tracker fitted that has back up VHF and GSM in addition to the GPS, so even if the thieves jam the GPS or stick it in a container or underground somewhere, it can still be tracked.

Would be keen to get the OBD port rerouted rather than shell out on a Ghost Watch or similar...does anyone know of anywhere in Central Scotland that can do this? How would Audi plug into the car should they need to do diagnostics?

[ajtaylor82]

I think I’m going to go down the Ampire route as it looks identical in form and function to the Autowatch Ghost but a lot cheaper and you can self instal. Planning to connect it using these https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180129/b25d4315ab2b5fa9113245d032a03f40.jpg so it an be easily removed if required.


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[muumipeikko]

My insurance company told me I had to get a tracker fitted as a condition of them insuring me - I've got a "Tracker Locate" tracker fitted that has back up VHF and GSM in addition to the GPS, so even if the thieves jam the GPS or stick it in a container or underground somewhere, it can still be tracked.

Would be keen to get the OBD port rerouted rather than shell out on a Ghost Watch or similar...does anyone know of anywhere in Central Scotland that can do this? How would Audi plug into the car should they need to do diagnostics?

You have it the nail on the head in terms of making this sort of change, I talked to my local dealer about this having been spooked a few weeks ago. They gave me the name of a place which will do the work (not much use to you as based in SW London) but then told me in no uncertain terms that given this is a device attached to the central nervous system of the car in their opinion it would totally invalidate the warranty in terms of electrical issues. They advised tracker and gap insurance!

[ajtaylor82]

You have it the nail on the head in terms of making this sort of change, I talked to my local dealer about this having been spooked a few weeks ago. They gave me the name of a place which will do the work (not much use to you as based in SW London) but then told me in no uncertain terms that given this is a device attached to the central nervous system of the car in their opinion it would totally invalidate the warranty in terms of electrical issues. They advised tracker and gap insurance!

Would they ever know? As long as you remove it before a service? To my knowledge there’s nothing on the car to log CANbus traffic. Once you disconnect it it’s gone. I’ve got gap insurance but that doesn’t mean your insurance won’t increase after a claim. £200 for a device that stops the car being nicked or >£200pa increase in insurance. Seems like a no brainier to me. I get why people are concerned about a device sending messages on the Bus but at the end of the day that’s all it’s doing, it’s not changing software/firmware. If it was to go wrong it’s highly unlikely to send a valid message to anything that would cause an affect. Audi just can’t be bothered to approve these devices. I really can’t see how they could ever cause any damage to anything else.


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[muumipeikko]

Would they ever know? As long as you remove it before a service? To my knowledge there’s nothing on the car to log CANbus traffic. Once you disconnect it it’s gone. I’ve got gap insurance but that doesn’t mean your insurance won’t increase after a claim. £200 for a device that stops the car being nicked or >£200pa increase in insurance. Seems like a no brainier to me. I get why people are concerned about a device sending messages on the Bus but at the end of the day that’s all it’s doing, it’s not changing software/firmware. If it was to go wrong it’s highly unlikely to send a valid message to anything that would cause an affect. Audi just can’t be bothered to approve these devices. I really can’t see how they could ever cause any damage to anything else.


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I think if you are as technically minded as Andy then no but if you need to pay someone £200 in install it, you probably need to pay them to take it out and reinstall after it's been in garage and that will get expensive I suspect

[andyhud007]

CANBus traffic is logged on the MLBEvo but its not "user available"

Personally (and this is just me personally of course, nothing else). I would just install it myself but then I'm comfortable with that and I fully appreciate others are not and that is fine too. The car systems are clever enough and protected enough that its very hard to "toast" the car even if you wire it up wrong and ajtaylor82 is right, its not "changing" anything on the system. Its just intercepting traffic to stop the car from starting. One could argue that is "changing" something so I guess you can never satisfy everyone's thoughts.

I think its a great piece of kit. All modern cars work with a CANBus and there is even a good article on Wikipedia about what its all about.

Just my 2p

[anemeth]

I agree with Andy on this one.

Just to clarify, these can bus immobilizers in Q7 (4M) do not stop the engine starting, they stop the gearbox to be taken out of P (Park).

See the video how it works on our Audi:

Audi Q7 Autowatch Ghost Demonstration - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I6xSG4N7u8)

[ajtaylor82]

I agree with Andy on this one.

Just to clarify, these can bus immobilizers in Q7 (4M) do not stop the engine starting, they stop the gearbox to be taken out of P (Park).

See the video how it works on our Audi:

Audi Q7 Autowatch Ghost Demonstration - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I6xSG4N7u8)

I wonder what signal is modified on the CANbus for this... Brake pedal position sensor? If that’s the case then no amount of logging would suggest anything unusual should Audi milk the data.


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[ajtaylor82]

I still for the life of me can’t fathom why Audi wouldn’t install this sort of feature by default, even if you could switch it on or off. Do they just think most people don’t want the inconvenience? Or is there some other motivation whereby it’s good for business to have cars nicked... let’s face it, unless people stop buying VaG cars having thefts is actually good for business. Think of all the insurance write-off and the customer foots the bill in premium hikes.


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[muumipeikko]

I still for the life of me can’t fathom why Audi wouldn’t install this sort of feature by default, even if you could switch it on or off. Do they just think most people don’t want the inconvenience? Or is there some other motivation whereby it’s good for business to have cars nicked... let’s face it, unless people stop buying VaG cars having thefts is actually good for business. Think of all the insurance write-off and the customer foots the bill in premium hikes.


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I don't think they are motivated by repeat business, I think this sort of technology only works as people on the whole don't have it. These sort of gangs are like well oiled machines with a checklist of actions to perform to efficiently steal your car. Lets say tomorrow Audi fitted all cars with a Ghost Watch would that stop criminals? Hell no, that would just be another item on the checklist, while scumbag 1 is working on the alarms and coding the key, scumbag 2 is removing the GW device which as it's factory fitted and thus in a known location. Ghost watch only works as a anti-theft device as it throws a cog in the works of the well oiled machine which they were not expecting and haven't prepared for. When they can't engage drive, probably for the first time during the theft they panic, try a few brash things then think sod it, this isn't happening, time to move on to next car before we risk getting caught.