Engine using oil, and dirty plugs – is my turbo oil seal leaking?

[FrenchAudi]

My 1996 A4 B5 1.8 T has done only 30,000 miles, but uses quite a lot of oil, and the spark plugs always have oily carbon deposits on them. It is also slow to start, taking 2 or 3 seconds cranking before it fires, whether the engine is hot or cold.

The oil consumption has been about 1 litre per 2,000 miles since I bought the car early last year, with 25,000 miles on the clock.

Re. Slow starting.

In case this is due to a faulty engine temperature sensor causing a rich starting mixture, I checked indicated coolant temperature with my VAG 1552. It shows the temperature as ambient before starting, and gradually rises in a normal way.
I recently replaced the thermostat, and the temp. gauge shows 90º when driving.

I put in new spark plugs, but this made no difference.

In case the N80 valve is faulty, causing the EVAP canister to discharge into the inlet during starting, causing a rich mixture, I blocked the hose from the N80 valve to the air inlet, but this made no difference during several starts.

Re. Oil on plugs/consumption

As mentioned in previous posts, I removed and checked the PCV valve for the crankcase. It is working properly, and there is no positive crankcase pressure evident when I remove the oil filler cap at idle.

Today I measured compression pressures with the engine hot, all plugs removed and HT coils and injectors disconnected, expecting possible low values to indicate excessive blowby, but values are way above minimum.
Specs are: Minimum pressure – 7 Bar, maximum variation 3 Bar.

Results: Cyl’s 1 to 4: 13.3, 13.8, 13.8, 13.9 Bar.

All the above seems to indicate that the engine is OK, so is it likely that the plug oiling and oil consumption is due to a failed turbo oil seal?

[Crasher]

Good compression doesn't mean that the piston oil rings are not seated, a better indication of this is to use a cylinder leak down gauge but that is more involved, a low mileage on that age suggests possible bad storage, short running times etc and these can cause bore wash which glazes the bores and stops the piston oil rings working. Check in the turbo outlet pipe at its lowest point, if it only has a little wetness then the oil isn't coming from the turbo compressor shaft and into the intake. Technically speaking a turbo shaft doesn't have seals, they use steel piston rings, just to confuse...

[FrenchAudi]

Thanks for that, Crasher. Badly seated oil rings due to low mileage from new seems very probable; the car never seems to have been used much, and was certainly stored for much of its life.

Somewhere in my brain I knew turbo oil seals are metal:confused:

The first owner died some time ago, probably around 2001, and his widow drove it even less, if at all.
It seems it was used by her nephew, but not registered in his name until he sold it to me last year.
It costs about £200 to register it, so he didn’t do this until he sold it to me.

Here are the dates, mileage and mileage since previous service (converted from km) from the service history booklet which came with the car. The last item was done by myself.

29/04/96 Delivery service
15/05/97 12mth 4723 4723
12/08/98 12mth + Int 8210 3487
01/10/99 12mth + Int 9886 1676
10/10/01 12mth 13948 4062
21/02/05 ? 17683 3735
08/07/08 ? 19641 1959
13/02/16 All items 26883 7242

It seems glazed bores are the most probable cause of the oil being burnt.
I checked inside of the pipe from the intercooler to the inlet manifold when I was replacing the belts. It had a slight film of oil on it, but was not dripping with oil.

I’m getting a bit crippled, old, and lazy, so I’m not going to drag the front of the car off yet again to check the turbo right now. Everything runs nicely and very quietly, plenty of power, so maybe I’ll just stop taking it apart to find out why it runs so good – as my old uncle used to say, and hope the rings eventually seat themselves.

[Crasher]

You could try Millers Glaze Bust oil and then run it on Motul 4000 15w/40 mineral oil until/if it settles down, it has worked for me on a number of occasions.

[FrenchAudi]

I managed to get the Glaze Bust at the end of August, but didn't get around to putting it in the engine until today. Following the data sheet instructions here LIQUID GLAZE BUST | Millers Oils - Advanced Lubricants, Oils and Fuel Additives (http://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/liquid-glaze-bust/524)

As the total oil volume of my engine is so small (3.9 litres), and filling it to the minimum level without changing the filter, as instructed, took only 3 litres, I filled it to the maximum, which took 3.5 litres. I bought 8 litres of Glaze Bust, and am unlikely to need it again, so there seems no point in economising on it.

We then drove briskly for about 40 miles on the main road, to a nice restaurant for Sunday lunch. I checked the oil level when we arrived, as I expected to be using more than usual, but the level had not changed.

After eating (and only 25 cl of wine each) we returned via minor roads through the hills, so that there was plenty of gear changing for the auto box to do, and pulling away uphill after slow corners. Arriving home we had done about 80 miles. The oil level has still not noticeably dropped.

The instructions say to keep running on it for maximum of 200 miles or until oil consumption reduces, but the engine is not using an appreciable amount of oil, so I am wondering whether I should continue the process until I reach the 200 miles, continue for less than that, or change to the Shell 15W40 mineral oil which I have ready.

Am I likely to do any damage by leaving the stuff in any longer, Crasher?

[Crasher]

I would do the 200 ish, it is just that it lacks the cleaning agents normal oil contains. Finding mineral 10w/40 is proving VERY difficult.

[FrenchAudi]

Thank you. I will do as you suggest. I hoard all sorts of stuff, including oil:D

I still wonder what to do with a gallon or two of Castrol 2T two-stroke oil I have. I bought it years ago, to experiment with adding it to the Ro80's petrol, and disabling the oil dosing pump (which feeds oil into the petrol at the carbs). It seemed to work OK with the oil:fuel ratio I chose, but I got nervous about myself or wife forgetting to add it when filling up, and reconnected the dosing pump.

My feeling was that burning two-stroke rather than engine oil would cause less carbon build-up on the rotors, which was the main cause of sticking gas seals.

Someone actually marketed a metered two-stroke oil injection system, with the oil pumped from a dedicated tank instead of from the engine lubrication system, but by then I had ditched the NSU engine and fitted a Mazda.

[Crasher]

I had ditched the NSU engine and fitted a Mazda.

:puke:ohh well, better than a Ford V4 which is what most people fitted

[FrenchAudi]

:puke:ohh well, better than a Ford V4 which is what most people fitted

It was a Mazda rotary engine, producing 175 HP instead of 115 from the NSU engine, with much lower fuel consumption, which is what NSU should have produced if VW/Audi hadn't ditched the Ro80 and taken over the factory in Neckarsulm.

[FrenchAudi]

After filling with Millers Glaze Bust in December, I ran 250 miles under varying conditions, and have now been running on Motul Classic 15W/40, as recommended for running-in, for 170 miles. We don’t go far at this time of year, as the Audi is mainly used for longish trips, so it’s taking a while.

In those 420 miles there has been no noticeable oil consumption, but I will wait a bit longer before I decide whether or not it has really been reduced.

I see from the parts list that there is a plastic box assembly at the start of the breather system, bolted on the side of the block, called the “Breather Assembly”, item 1 below.
I assume this contains an oil separator/baffles/mesh to reduce the amount of oil reaching the air intake?
Does anyone know if this item needs servicing on a regular basis? - It’s a bit inaccessible.

I have seen a few reports of the plastic “Breather Line”, item 2, p/n 058-103-213, connected to the Breather Assembly, becoming brittle and splitting. A later version, p/n 06A-103-213-F, looks more sturdy, may be made of metal (is that too much to hope for?) and should be a direct fit.

This is my breather system:

34675

[Crasher]

Simply, all of it falls apart if you touch it.

[FrenchAudi]

Thank you, but which bits fall apart - just the thin plastic ones, no.2 and no.5 ?

And what's inside the "Breather assembly", no.1, please? - does this also fall apart?

[FrenchAudi]

Update:

I managed to shift enough stuff out of the way to take a better look at the breather assembly. It all looks in good condition, and is not cracked nor broken.

After running with the breather line running to a catch can, which caught nothing except condensed water, and the pipes to the inlet system blanked off, for about 300 miles, I fitted a new PCV valve and reconnected the original breather system.

While the PCV system was disconnected there was still the same small amount of oil being deposited in the pipe below the intercooler, indicating that it must be coming from the turbo.

I ran with Glaze Bust as recommended: 200 miles with GB, and a further 500 miles with running-in oil, after which I refilled with my usual Shell Helix Ultra 5w40.

1500 miles later I have just added approx. 0.7 litres, giving an average of 1 litre per 2000 miles, exactly the same as before the GB treatment.

[Crasher]

Not ring related then OR not curable by getting the rings to “bite”, that is IF they have not gone too far to the point they are weak and worn so it could be the turbo piston rings (I know, confusing that one) or worn exhaust valve guides or worn piston rings, the real pistons, you know, the up and down ones...

[FrenchAudi]

I have thought of the possibilities you mention, Crasher, but those wear rates are not really consistent with the recorded mileage, especially considering that the car has had 8 recorded oil changes in only 35,000 miles.

There is always the possibility that this is not genuine, but the mileages recorded for oil changes and minor service in the service booklet have the stamps of 4 VAG agents in Switzerland, where the car was bought, and 2 independent small garages in France, up to the 32,000 km (20,000 miles), reached in 2008, and don't look faked.

I bought the car 8 years later, in 2016, with 43,000 km (27,000 miles) on the clock, a further 7,000 miles only, with no more service work recorded. It was still registered to the widow of the original owner, and was sold to me through her nephew.

It is possible that the recorded mileage was altered, but the general appearance, absence of any corrosion at all underneath, and lack of general wear and tear on the car are consistent with the distance shown.

I am not about to tear down the engine at this stage, and will continue to live with the current oil consumption until there is a significant change in this.

I keep a continuous record of petrol and oil consumption, which since I have had the car have been steady, between 30 and 35 mpg and 1/2 litre per 1,000 miles.

[Crasher]

absence of any corrosion at all underneath

Not a modern 8E or 8K then, the rust we see under these is depressing.....

[FrenchAudi]

Not a modern 8E or 8K then, the rust we see under these is depressing.....

Fortunately the car was, and still is, kept in a garage, and they don't cover the roads here with salt in the winter.

[FrenchAudi]

At the end of March, the car had covered about 3,000 miles in the 9 months since my last post on this subject. The oil consumption was decreasing, and seemed to start dropping quite significantly soon after the beginning of this year.

On March 31, in preparation for a trip to S Spain, I did an oil change oil after about 4400 miles instead of the 5000 miles I have decided on. The previous change was after 5800 miles, which included 250 miles on Glaze Bust and 475 miles on mineral oil.

We returned yesterday, having covered 1,514 miles, much on motorway type roads with 75 mph limits and main roads with 50 - 60 mph limits, but many miles on winding mountain roads. We stayed away from urban areas, so there was very little town or city driving.

Average petrol consumption for the trip was 34 mpg. I checked the oil level each time we filled up, and was surprised there was no need to top up.

On checking this morning, the oil level is only 1 mm below the top mark. Must have done something right :D

[Crasher]

Glaze Bust saves the day yet again!

[FrenchAudi]

After reading tales of woe about blocked oil pickup filters, when I drained the sump I had a look around the inside of it with my endoscope.

There was no way I could get it under the pickup, but otherwise everything looked clean and shiny, with no trace of any sludge.

I'm hoping the current low mileage and number of recorded oil changes from new (6 in the 27,000 miles before I bought it and 3 in the 19,000 since then), and the fact that we don't use the car for short trips, have reduced or eliminated the chance of sludge forming.

For more peace of mind, I'm fitting an oil pressure gauge as soon as I can, though.

[Crasher]

If VAG had stuck with the dynamic oil pressure warning system they introduced in 1982 and phased out from around 97, this would have saved countless numbers of failed engines just in the cases I have personally seen, I bought my Octavia VRS at four years old with a ragged engine.

[FrenchAudi]

I have two VAG vehicles with dynamic oil pressure warning systems. My 1987 VW camper has two pressure switches, one which switches off the warning light at 0.25 Bar, and another which sounds a buzzer and makes the light flash if the pressure falls below 1.8 Bar at any speed above 2,000 rpm.
The Audi has one switch, which opens at 1.4 Bar. The ECU lights the warning lamp if this switch closes when the engine speed is higher than 300 rpm.

Such a simple system that I can't understand why VAG phased it out. Maybe their agents were short of repair work or they needed the ECU space for something more important like a motorised boot lid.

[Crasher]

On the Golf 1, 2 and 3 I can recollect hundreds of situations where the all important 1.8 Bar pressure to close white switch saved an engine from damage when the demented hornet (later beeper) went off. It became part of my service regime to disconnect the yellow wire and rev the engine over 2200 rpm to make sure the slightly temperamental circuit board wasn’t playing up and to “exercise” it, even then if it was playing up you could replace the board in the panel for a sum which all changed on the Golf 3 which had no spare parts available but even then you could fit a used panel without spending thousands on a new one which needed programming in. This is a situation which is going to get MUCH worse in the future, I don’t want anything to do with 800 volt batteries thank you.... can you imagine some of the DIY people on here working on 100Kw 800 volt batteries in worn out 10 year old cars........ :yikes::firedevil

[mumutley]

On the Golf 1, 2 and 3 I can recollect hundreds of situations where the all important 1.8 Bar pressure to close white switch saved an engine from damage when the demented hornet (later beeper) went off. It became part of my service regime to disconnect the yellow wire and rev the engine over 2200 rpm to make sure the slightly temperamental circuit board wasn’t playing up and to “exercise” it, even then if it was playing up you could replace the board in the panel for a sum which all changed on the Golf 3 which had no spare parts available but even then you could fit a used panel without spending thousands on a new one which needed programming in. This is a situation which is going to get MUCH worse in the future, I don’t want anything to do with 800 volt batteries thank you.... can you imagine some of the DIY people on here working on 100Kw 800 volt batteries in worn out 10 year old cars........ :yikes::firedevil

I am HV trained for LIVE working and I must admit it I never feel 100% at ease, even with all the applicable buzz bars removed, safe voltage, it still makes me check 10 time do it once!!!!!! you can not see electric coming to get you

[Crasher]

With petrol you get a warning, a puddle or a sniff, with 800v you just fry. Those people who are pushing for electric cars are sentencing future young mechanics to death by electrocution, it is insane and beyond sensible evaluation, try and save the planet (as if!) by killing young techs and later people who like to fiddle with cars. It doesn’t even warrant a smilie......

[FrenchAudi]

Beginning to wish I'd kept my Ro80, which, after all my work, is now sitting unused in a garage in Tokyo:(

[Crasher]

I wish I had bought one...

[FrenchAudi]

I wish I had bought one...

They were probably totally out of fashion when you got your first driving licence:(, but very cheap. I only paid a few hundred for no. 3, the blue one I just sold, in 1984.

They do grow on you. I had three. This is the first one, driving through France after collecting it from the factory in October 1968. Cost DM10,800, about £1,100 then, with radio and sunroof.

35891

Approaching Aix en Provence, Mont St. Victoire and a bunch of Spaniards picking grapes in the background.

[Crasher]

My freind who does restoration work for me has one, I lust after it when I go up there.

[FrenchAudi]

At the end of March, the car had covered about 3,000 miles in the 9 months since my last post on this subject. The oil consumption was decreasing, and seemed to start dropping quite significantly soon after the beginning of this year.

On March 31, in preparation for a trip to S Spain, I did an oil change oil after about 4400 miles instead of the 5000 miles I have decided on. The previous change was after 5800 miles, which included 250 miles on Glaze Bust and 475 miles on mineral oil.

We returned yesterday, having covered 1,514 miles, much on motorway type roads with 75 mph limits and main roads with 50 - 60 mph limits, but many miles on winding mountain roads. We stayed away from urban areas, so there was very little town or city driving.

Average petrol consumption for the trip was 34 mpg. I checked the oil level each time we filled up, and was surprised there was no need to top up.

On checking this morning, the oil level is only 1 mm below the top mark. Must have done something right :D



That was written on April 16th. Today I checked the dipstick on level ground, 1500 miles since it was changed.

It was slightly down, and I added a bit less than half a litre to bring it up to the mark.

I also installed an oil pressure gauge.

As it is very difficult to get to the various places to tee off from the existing pressure switch and connect the wires to suitable ignition-switched supply and lighting circuits, I hired a stunted, 3-armed midget with prehensile fingers and eyes on stalks to do this for me. I ran the wire from the sender unit through a spare grommet into the ECU enclosure, and from there through the big hole to the dashboard area.

The gauge is now connected, will be properly installed tomorrow. A preliminary check with cold engine shows just over 6 bar at 3,000 rpm. That meets Mr Bentley's requirement of "between 5 and 7 bars at 3000 rpm".

After blitzing my camper engine I feel much happier being able to glance at the oil pressure from time to time, and perhaps be forewarned of any pending problems.

I'm now thinking of adding some ZDDP at the next oil change, in an effort to save the cams and followers.

[Crasher]

If you are still using oil, adding ZDDP could lead to catalyst failure and cam/follower failure on the 1.8 20v is almost unheard of BUT the cam chain does wear.

[FrenchAudi]

If you are still using oil, adding ZDDP could lead to catalyst failure and cam/follower failure on the 1.8 20v is almost unheard of BUT the cam chain does wear.

Thanks for that advice.

I use ZDDPlus in my van, and thought about using it in the Audi after reading your rant on another thread about crap oil causing wear.

But the VW doesn't have a cat, and as the Audi still burns some oil, the zinc from the additive reaching the cat probably would wreck it prematurely.

I guess I'll stick with Helix Ultra and 8000 km changes, and hope for the best.

Crasher - Is it worth taking off the cylinder head cover to check the cam chain and tensioner/pads for wear at the mileage I have? Also, how is the chain wear measured - is there a gauge for this?

[FrenchAudi]

I worry about current oils and cam follower wear after having this problem on one of my Alfa engines at about 82,000 miles.

Maybe the previous owner(s) didn't bother changing the engine oil:(

Luckily I was able to find 2 new camshafts and a full set of cam followers:D

35905

[Crasher]

Well Alfa’s are designed to go wrong, it just wouldn’t be right if it didn’t... The chain and tensioner wear is visually quite obvious if it is bad.

[FrenchAudi]

Well Alfa’s are designed to go wrong

Perhaps that's why they made them so much easier to work on.;)




The chain and tensioner wear is visually quite obvious if it is bad.

Thanks. At what sort of mileage do you think they should be checked?

[Crasher]

I would only worry about it if you can hear it rattle on a cold start, I can only remember one instance that I ever saw of failure and that was the VVT version on a Cupra R BAM engine with mega mileage and poor servicing.

[FrenchAudi]

Well, two years down the line, and we just returned from a 2500 km trip around Spain. Mostly on fast Autovias, the free motorways.

I added 1/2 litre of oil a couple of days before getting home. Today I checked the service history, and see that when I added the 1/2 litre that came to only one litre of oil in the previous 5,500 km (3,400 miles). Quite an improvement on 1 litre per 2,000 miles back in 2017.

Also, the petrol consumption for the trip averaged 7.8 litres per 100 km (36 mpg), also an improvement over the usual 9 litres per 100 km (31 mpg)

[Crasher]

So that is from the Glaze Bust treatment only?

[FrenchAudi]

So that is from the Glaze Bust treatment only?

It is from the GB + mineral oil treatment as per GB instructions, totalling 1160 km, and a further 13,000 km.

After refilling with normal oil the car has done 13,000 km with one further oil change.

The consumption up to the oil change, for 7,000 km, was 3 litres.

Since that change it is 1 litre for 6,000 km as of today

[Crasher]

Excellent validation of the product. We built a 2.3 5 cyl for an Audi Coupe and after the Millers Competition Running in Oil, I put in the Motul as I mentioned and the thing took up drinking as a hobby. Went to Blaze Bust, then CRO again; for 500 miles each and then a simple Fuchs 15w/40 mineral and so far the customer has said nothing.

[FrenchAudi]

Update on the oil consumption. With 86,500 km (54,000 miles) on the clock, it is now 1 litre per 10,000 km. Thanks to Crasher and Glaze Bust.

Still using fully synthetic Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 and oil & filter changes every 8,000 km.

I think the sump capacity is rather small, so I am using a bigger filter, a Mahle/Knecht OC470, which has increased capacity by about 1/2 litre.

A 5 litre can is now enough for a change plus topping up between changes, and I no longer need to carry a can of oil in the boot for topping up while on a long trip.

[Crasher]

VAG even advised using the 068 115 561 B oil filter instead of the 06A

https://digital-assets.tecalliance.services/images/3200/ec56923693a791219938de640094d9f3276cdf67.jpg?ver=3 .101.0.f8803fd1dd https://digital-assets.tecalliance.services/images/3200/1cf25e99deeeb1a0dbd899ec8f257f145f706475.jpg?ver=3 .101.0.f8803fd1dd