Violent engine shaking on hot start after DMF change

[mure]

Hello,

Some 5 days ago I changed the clutch set (DMF included) as recently advised by the service. It was probably about to go bad because while driving after pressing the clutch it made strange noises that did not sound healthy. I wanted to change before things got worst. The car I own is: Audi A3 Sportback 2006 (model year 2007) with 225.000km on the odometer. Engine is BLS 1.9 TDI 77kW 105 BHP with no custom modifications whatsoever.

The clutch kit that I had installed is SACHS with part number:

2290 602 004 (009)

33060

33061

(It says Made in Slovak Republic, but on the metallic parts it is imprinted Made in Germany, so I don't know what is happening there)

After picking the car up from the mechanic and starting it, it was all great. I drove home and I was happy with the job done, the car runs perfect and I have a feeling that it runs much smoother. Went to work the other day, returned from work - all great.
The problem: Yesterday I went on a longer trip, made a short break and started the car again 5 minutes after shutting it down. I was surprised because this time starting the car came with a very bad noise and violent vibrations. If required, I can record it and upload here. After starting the car, it runs great without any problems. When I came home and parked, I experimented a little with starting and stopping to see what's going on here. I concluded nothing as I am not a mechanic but it would be illogical to think that something else is wrong because this started happening right after changing the DMF.
Anyway, I started a car few times, and every time with a shudder/judder noise and bad vibrations. One time it would not even start! (this scared me a little), it was just about to start and then it felt like it muffled itself to a halt. When that happened I heard some noise like a motor turning without load (that is how I would describe it).

This morning, after the car cooled down completely over night, it started like a charm. No vibrations and no noises, excellent. I stopped it and re-started a few times and the noise was starting to come back. After driving the car and heating it up I restarted it and it was once again vibrating like crazy and making bad noise while starting.

Also reading on this forum, I see that others have the same problem: Starting problem after dmf and clutch change - Page 4 (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/168143-Starting-problem-after-dmf-and-clutch-change/page4) and there I was advised to start a new thread with my own problem. One guy at the mentioned link changed all the usual suspects except the DMF itself without solving the problem.

So guys, what am I looking at here?

Thanks.

Best regards,
Mure

[micheal balbrig]

Why not take it back to mechanic to have a look e.t c.
Maybe it is something simple like anti shudder valve or something else,or cables nipped when gearbox was fitted.
Best to get it looked at before driving as a precaution.

[Crasher]

Please PM me your cars Vehicle Identification Number

2290 602 004 is not a normal clutch kit as would be replacing VW parts, this kit is a heavy duty clutch kit “ZMS Modul XTend” and Sachs provide the information below with the kit to assist with your issue.

https://www.zf.com/global/media/medien_mastersite/aftermarket/service_information/sitematrix_2/clutches/general_1/englisch_6/SI_SX_12273_ZMS_Geraeusche_beim_Starten_des_Motors _EN.pdf
https://www.zf.com/global/media/medien_mastersite/aftermarket/service_information/sitematrix_2/clutches/general_1/kroatisch_5/SI_SX_12273_ZMS_Geraeusche_beim_Starten_des_Motors _HR.pdf
https://www.zf.com/global/media/medien_mastersite/aftermarket/service_information/sitematrix_2/clutches/general_1/serbisch_6/SI_SX_12273_ZMS_Geraeusche_beim_Starten_des_Motors _SR.pdf

As this is a self-adjusting unit the adjustment can creep during transit and MUST be checked prior to installation and reset using the correct press tools if necessary, we see many disastrous installations of this type of clutch and the Audi workshop manual contains quite a few notes of caution when installing this design.

[Guest 2]

I had the same issue and exact same symptoms after a clutch/DMF change and changing the starter for a new one solved it.

[mure]

Maybe it is something simple like anti shudder valve or something else,or cables nipped when gearbox was fitted.
They will check, but it is highly unlikely. ASV would make more sense on cars shutdown if it remains open, or on every startup if it is blocked. The engine's temperature might stop it from opening/closing properly though, but that is unlikely to happen to many people just after changing the DMF.


I had the same issue and exact same symptoms after a clutch/DMF change and changing the starter for a new one solved it.
I read that others solved the problem by changing the starter motor only to have the problem re-appear after couple of months. When did you change yours?


Please PM me your cars Vehicle Identification Number
I have sent you my VIN. I hope the PM went through, it says I can only PM staff members.
Also, thanks for the links you provided in all languages. I can read both "EN" and "SR" PDFs you have provided. They describe all common problems that do make sense.

For example, their first possible problem (Check electrical connections between the battery, starter, alternator...) would make sense to me if that happened on every engine start. It does not, it happens only after the DMF has been spinning recently, so there is a clear pattern when this happens. I figured out that the engine does not need to heat up for this problem to start appearing. I could start-stop the engine while it is still cold a few times and the problem comes right in (slowly getting worse as I continue to start-stop the car). It would be pretty strange to say that the starter motor "gets tired", however it could mean that the battery loses the voltage and the starter motor spins slower, but I can rule out the battery because after driving the battery re-charges and I still have the engine starting problem. So I will rule out the battery as well as the starter motor. The car starts perfectly and in one second after all night being parked. I will also rule out the coolant temperature sensor and remapping the ECU, and also even the injectors are all good as something would manifest during the travel/driving.

I have no noises while traveling. Everything is smooth and beautiful. The DMF actually works great during travel (so far!).
I have no noises while stopping the car, it stops without vibrations and noises (I will rule out the ASV).

I might be dreaming but I do have an idea of what is going on here. I will try to explain:
1. Car has not been driven for few hours, everything is "cold".
2. I can start the car perfectly just like before.
3. I drive the car, the DMF is spinning and doing it's job. Assuming that there is something wrong with the DMF installation or the DMF itself (or even the clutch) the things start to heat up, and they start heating up progressively. The springs inside of the DMF start to get loose as the temperature is higher than normal operating temperature. This causes the springs to lose their tension and they do not provide the appropriate counter-force as they are meant to do.
4. I stop the car, the DMF stops spinning.
5. I start cranking the car, the starter motor spins the DMF but this time with a twist. The DMF's other heavy metalic part is now more loose that it was when the springs were working properly causing it to be more "late" in catching up the part that starter motor is spinning. Right at the moment when the engine is about to start the DMF's loose weight part slows down for a breaf moment and just possibly reaches it's opposite movement limit and hits it with its mass. The starter-motor side sees this as a weight that is now actually slowing it down. The starter motor catches up the speed and continues to crank the engine and the whole process repeats until the engine finally starts or halts. I would describe this as an oscillation issue of the DMF and the starter motor - think of it as a dance but in this case each partner is trying to start and stop the other one but they are heavy and it is almost equaly difficult to both stop and start them.

The temporary problem solving for this is:
1. Get a stronger battery, as this will make your starter motor stronger! - This will help it to counteract the DMF's ugly dance and start the engine.
2. Get a new starter motor, naturally it is stronger than your old one! - This will help it to counteract the DMF's ugly dance and start the engine.
3. Re-map your ECU as this will also start the engine a bit sooner before the DMF ugly dance kicks in, or even remove the coolant temperature sensor as it does the same thing basically.

This was me thinking out loud. What do you think?


As this is a self-adjusting unit the adjustment can creep during transit and MUST be checked prior to installation and reset using the correct press tools if necessary, we see many disastrous installations of this type of clutch and the Audi workshop manual contains quite a few notes of caution when installing this design.
I can bet that adjustments did creep during transit, and nobody is here able to check them prior installation nor would care about them. They just install the damn thing and send you off.

I made a decision to replace the DMF, one more time. This time with a genuine one that Audi installs in their shop, so if the problem appears again I will just return the car until they install the correct one (assuming that the battery, starter, ASV, EGR is all good, but I am not going to think that these broke down to too many people right after they changed the DMF, no way).

Best regards,
Mure

[mure]

Of course, I will first wait for Crasher to check my VIN number... :)

[Guest 2]

I read that others solved the problem by changing the starter motor only to have the problem re-appear after couple of months. When did you change yours?


The clutch/flywheel was changed in mid/late-2015, the starter was replaced in November 2015 at 131,000, there is now 175,000 miles on the car (May 2017) and the issue hasn't came back.

There weren't too many miles between the clutch change and starter change. It was replaced with a genuine exchange unit.

2009 1.9 BLS A3.

[mure]

Glad to hear that you have no issues. Do you know what kind of clutch/flywheel is installed in your car?

On the other note; I just went to see a mechanic to show him the problem. I drove 10 minutes before he tried to restart the car. He did it once, twice, 15 times and no extreme violent shakes. The car got scared obviously just like it was going to a dentist. :p He of course did not mind the little bad noise and vibration that I hear because he does not know what it sounded like before. The car starts everytime but with a special noise and more vibration than before.
However I did notice a new sound. I recorder it so check it out here: Audi A3 1.9 TDI 77kW 105BHP, thumping after clutch and DMF change - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MbvdjjTtHkQ) please read the video description on when to start listening (when to expect it). I don't know if this is normal or not. The thumping sound rythm increases with engine speed.

Anyway, I will let it drive me crazy for a few more days and decide what to do.

[Crasher]

And you definitely have never seen code P0403 EGR malfunction shown or any other codes?

bear in mind that whoever does the job will have to reset the clutch cover adjustment BUT I am not sure you can use the Xtend cover with the genuine DMF, I would think you had to use the 03G 141 016 AX kit with 03G 105 266 BM DMF.

[mure]

Nope, no engine errors at all. I guess that with any failed solenoids, valves, injector harness the ECU would register those issues. This looks to me like a true hardware problem that the ECU is not getting feedback from in order to register the error.

Thanks for the part number. I will have them replace the entire set with the original stuff. SACHS Xtend is going out completely.

Tomorrow morning I will go see another friend just to hear the engine start couple of times and check it out a bit. Maybe he will have some ideas as he has some experience with DMFs and is a good mechanic.

I will keep you updated.

Best regards.

[mure]

OK guys, a short update.
I have just returned from a mechanic, he is 90% confident that it is the flywheel/clutch that is screwing up the engine start. Over the phone yesterday he suspected about the injectors, injector gaskets, starter motor, you know, all the logical things that prevent engine to properly start. But when a violent shake happened in front of him (thankfully this time it did happen few times upon starting the engine) he immediatelly said that it must be the flywheel. I already called Audi service and will go see them about making an appointment to install LUK DMF set.

The mechanic I just returned from also said that the engine mounts are screwed up (the one on the driver's side is more loose than other two), he could literally move the engine by hand. So I bet that these violent shakes screwed up my engine mounts too, so these will be changed as well. (Do not get tempted to think that these violent shakes are because of poor engine mounts, do not forget that this started happening after I changed the clutch/DMF).

I will keep you updated.

[Guest 2]

Glad to hear that you have no issues. Do you know what kind of clutch/flywheel is installed in your car?

On the other note; I just went to see a mechanic to show him the problem. I drove 10 minutes before he tried to restart the car. He did it once, twice, 15 times and no extreme violent shakes. The car got scared obviously just like it was going to a dentist. :p He of course did not mind the little bad noise and vibration that I hear because he does not know what it sounded like before. The car starts everytime but with a special noise and more vibration than before.
However I did notice a new sound. I recorder it so check it out here: Audi A3 1.9 TDI 77kW 105BHP, thumping after clutch and DMF change - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MbvdjjTtHkQ) please read the video description on when to start listening (when to expect it). I don't know if this is normal or not. The thumping sound rythm increases with engine speed.

Anyway, I will let it drive me crazy for a few more days and decide what to do.

The clutch kit installed was Sachs-2290601050 and the gearbox oil was also changed with G052512A2

[mure]

If I am not mistaking, there is a visual difference between your KIT and the one I had installed. The one I had installed has flywheel that is thinner than yours (the DMF assembly). Mine is also thinner than the LUK that was originally in my car. I thought that it was OK for this new one to be thinner since it is manufactured last year and I thought that they have updated the design.

I also changed the gearbox oil last year in AUDI service including the gaskets (don't know what they are called in english language, we call them "semering").

I have checked the prices for LUK KIT that is supposed to be original for my car, it costs 400 EUR here with 1 year warranty.

Hm, if it indeed proves that this SACHS KIT is infact the cause of my problem, how would one prove to the parts-store that the crap they sold me does not fit my car, in order to request for a refund? (Even though it physically fits and car runs)

[Crasher]

If we were doing that we would fit an LUK 600 0016 00

[mure]

Thanks.

I will let them install the original thing that is supposed to go in there. I am done with choosing parts on my own for now :-)

They will make the switch on Monday 2017-May-15 and will post here the results.

[mure]

Hello,

Yesterday they changed my entire clutch set, installed original "LUK" part. Now the car starts normal, no shaking and not bad sounds.

They noticed that one of gearbox mounts was damaged (probably because of the harsh vibrations) so they replaced it as well (labour costed me $0). They also replaced the starter motor's graphite brushes (preventive measure), labour costed $0 so I told them to do it as well. They also tested my battery (the capacity test) and it passed all good.

Now, because they changed the starter motor brushes I can't 100% confirm that the problem is solved with the changed DMF alone because they changed two, actually three things (including the gearbox mount).

Update: Returned the SACHS DMF to the store for a 100% refund. :beerchug:

Best regards!