Passat 170, BMR engine. DPF & EGR delete?

[jtonthebike]

Hi.

After a fair bit of reading and learning the dpf on my passat has just about reached max capacity for 'carbon mass', I'm considering a trip to Avon Tuning to have the dpf guts removed and the egr blanked off followed by the relevant ecu update at stage 1.

Has anyone had their cars dpf guts removed + egr blanked off by Avon Tuning? If so, what do you think to them as a company? Has the work been successful without any strange ecu or dpf lights / further issues?

I want reliability and a reduction in potential issues further down the line and Bristol is a couple of hours away from me, so any feedback on their workmanship and quality would be very much appreciated.

Regards, Jonathan

[zollaf]

what age is your car ?

[jtonthebike]

Hi.

2008.

[zollaf]

have you looked into the legalities of removing the dpf and egr ?

[jtonthebike]

Yes. I wouldn't have considered it an option without any research.

[Crasher]

Removing the EGR is defiantly illegal and I am not 100% sure about the DPF even though it is a 2008. Anyway, it's environmentally irresponsible... :rant:

[jtonthebike]

Hi Crasher,

I understand the environmental ramifications of my proposals. Currently, my diesel vehicle produces a volume of white smoke when cold, part of the contents in this gaseous discharge is unburnt diesel, which is classified as "worse than asbestos" by the WHO. (this issue relates to the cam timing which Avon Tuning will look at (if they have the car).

In (theoretically) blanking off the EGR, which *may* (or may not) lead to an increase in NOx emissions, on a vehicle which is rarely driven, where I and my family regularly commute by bicycle or walking, where we use public transport, where we buy our household energy from only renewable resources is a 'risk' I am willing to take as looking at the bigger picture, our contribution to 'green' technologies and energies is significantly greater than the average Joe.

I have not seen legislation / documentation to specifically advise that bypassing the EGR is illegal. Could you please cite your claim as I'd like to better understand any gaps in my knowledge?

As I understand it, current legislation is that the DPF must appear to be present and fitted during an MOT test and that the 'smoke test' must also pass. Diesel vehicles, at the time of writing, are not subjected to the same stringent rules of a typical petrol engine, which is a bit of a shame really as there's hundreds of vehicles (in my area) spewing out black smoke that simply carry on, regardless of any environmental impact or legislation.

I think it's also worth noting that should I choose to have this work carried out and there's an improvement in fuel economy, the relationship between possible increases in NOx gasses and relative fuel consumption would be quite interesting.

[Gazwould]

Go for it , de- strangle the BMR , heard good things about Avon Tuning .

[Crasher]

I have not seen legislation / documentation to specifically advise that bypassing the EGR is illegal. Could you please cite your claim as I'd like to better understand any gaps in my knowledge.

It is under the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulation 61 A, it not an MOT failure, it is very boring legislation that I tried to read once but lost the will to live...

These are interesting

Don’t Block or Remove the EGR Valve, It’s Saving You Money | Tuner University (http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/2012/05/dont-block-or-remove-the-egr-valve-its-saving-you-money)

BBC highlight illegal DPF removals (http://garagewire.co.uk/news/industry-business/mot/bbc-highlight-illegal-dpf-removals)

DPF removal: the facts - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/10573720/DPF-removal-the-facts.html)

MOT test fail for DPF removal | Auto Express (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/84818/mot-test-fail-dpf-removal)

Government investigates DPF removal ahead of crackdown (http://garagewire.co.uk/news/government-investigates-dpf-removal-ahead-of-crackdown)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/263018/diesel-particulate-filters-guidance.pdf

New rules for MOT to test for diesel particulate filter - Press releases - GOV.UK (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-for-mot-to-test-for-diesel-particulate-filter)

Is it illegal to remove or disable your EGR valve? | Hypermiling | Fuel saving Tips | Industry News | Forum (http://www.hypermiler.co.uk/technical-guides-and-faqs/is-it-illegal-to-remove-or-disable-your-egr-valve)

[zollaf]

due to the amount of dpfs that have had the insides removed so they can still pass an mot, there will soon be a new test in the mot to check for the correct operation of the dpf. its easy to tell, if the insides of the tailpipe are clean then its got a working dpf. if a finger comes out covered in soot then its not. lots of people will be forced to fork out a lot of money to get their cars mot'd, and all the garages that say its fine will all of a sudden stop endorsing it. vosa is already stopping any mot test centre from removing dpf's.

[Crasher]

On the left is a 2008 EU4 without DPF, on the right is a 2009 EU5 with DPF, to those who take off their DPF, show them the finger!

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/V%20sign%20soot_zpsugrkoyyo.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/V%20sign%20soot_zpsugrkoyyo.jpg.html)

[Gazwould]

I think full time mechanics get turned down to perform finger banging .

[DMitch16]

White smoke is common on start up if the ambient temperature is cooler. It happens on a majority of cars and dissipates when the engine is warmer and any condensation in the exhaust system has evaporated. On a car with a DPF white smoke after the engine has warmed up is likely to be coolant from an internal leak to combustion not unburnt fuel. BMR engines are susceptible to cracked heads. There is a reference number to the right of the cylinder head underneath the fuel lines 03G 103 351 B or 03G 103 308 B. Look carefully at the letter at the end of this. If you have A you are virtually guaranteed to suffer a cracked cylinder head. The B is a little stronger but a few of these have still cracked. C is the one to have and there are very few if any reports of these cylinder heads cracking. Keep a close eye on engines with the A or B codes, particularly if there are any faults or issues arising.

With diesels under so much scrutiny presently and with further emissions legislation about to be passed I would think carefully about throwing a few hundred quid at the illegal deletes in the knowledge that if your modified vehicle fails any relevant test you will be instructed to return the vehicle to the stock condition perhaps costing you 3 to 5 times what you paid to have removed. An insurance assessor acquaintance of mine has already received instructions to add EGR and DPF delete checks to vehicles damaged in fires and accidents as these deletes constitute a performance modification that SHOULD be reported to an insurance company (no one does as they are ILLEGAL) and that such undisclosure warrants invalidation of the insurance policy. Of course if you do notify the insurance company of the illegal deletes they will refuse to continue to insure your car anyway.

I know someone who lost their license because they were drink driving. Is it OK that they drive a car whilst banned if they don't consume alcohol? Driving under a ban is illegal but surely it will be OK if no-one finds out?? Get my drift? Not the same? It's the law - of course it is the same!

[Crasher]

I think full time mechanics get turned down to perform finger banging .

That is why you spend as much time as I do on here and Volkswagen Forum - #1 VW Forum for UK & International VW Drivers (http://www.volkswagenforum.co.uk/forum.php), I have done 35 years at the sharp end and am still doing it, I even changed a pollen filter on a 9N yesterday, seriously hard work...;)

[DMitch16]

A Polo? Really pushing yourself these days eh Crasher? :1zhelp: :p :notworthy:You_Rock_

[Crasher]

A Polo? Really pushing yourself these days eh Crasher? :1zhelp: :p :notworthy:You_Rock_

One tech on honeymoon another on a training course, work still to be done, time to get me ovaries on....:friday:

[Sam]

One tech on honeymoon another on a training course, work still to be done, time to get me ovaries on....:friday:

Oh how the might have fallen :notworthy

[rowdy-999]

Someone can educate me if they wish, but Ive never understood the 'science' behind PDFs. Catalysts yes-they use rare metals to create a chemical change in the exhaust gases.
The DPF from my understanding is just a filter, that when it's clogged requires more fuel, and heat to burn off the offending particles. From an environmental perspective using more fuel, & reducing MPG just to simply burn off the particles can't be friendly to the environment.
In a lab it will create good results, but real world I cant see the benefits.
Ive blocked off my EGR. This has increased my MPG, and appears to freed up some noticeable HP. My engine will be more efficient, less likely to require a new manifold set, and I won't need harmful chemicals to clean out all the blocked pipes.
All the saved money will of course be donated to Greenpeace. :D

[Crasher]

The EU5 DPF was an EU box ticking exercise and a flawed concept, EU6 with a reactant is much better and this was VAG's downfall in the US where fitting a reactant system would have meant they could have achieved the CARB standards without some dodgy software. Having said that, the EU5 system does work ALTHOUGH it increases Co2 emissions and that is a contentious subject, I personally think a slight increase in Co2 WAS a price worth paying to get PM10's out of the air we all breathe but it failed because people cheated. If EU6 fails, that will be the end for light vehicle diesels which would be a shame because in certain cases such as big heavy luxury cars and small commercial vehicles they do make sense.

[zollaf]

look in the tailpipe of a dpf car, its clean. the dangerous large soot particles that block up your lungs are trapped inside the dpf. yes it will use more fuel to regenerate but even so, the soot is not being pumped into the atmosphere. a good test is thus. stand behind a normal non dpf diesel, and get the driver to rev it whilst you take a deep breath. now do the same behind a dpf car. then you have to decide one thing, you have to repeat this everyday for the rest of your life, but only with one car. which do you choose ?

[rowdy-999]

look in the tailpipe of a dpf car, its clean. the dangerous large soot particles that block up your lungs are trapped inside the dpf. yes it will use more fuel to regenerate but even so, the soot is not being pumped into the atmosphere. a good test is thus. stand behind a normal non dpf diesel, and get the driver to rev it whilst you take a deep breath. now do the same behind a dpf car. then you have to decide one thing, you have to repeat this everyday for the rest of your life, but only with one car. which do you choose ?

The large particles are burnt off, and I assume become smaller particles. Does that make them safer?

[Crasher]

The large particles are burnt off, and I assume become smaller particles. Does that make them safer?

No, they are worse in some ways. These are PM2.5 instead of the larger PM10 and these "fine particulates" don't stay in the lungs, they pass through the linings into the blood stream where they can cause all sorts of problems. This is the problem not just with Diesel but also the upcoming direct injection engines that work on a stratified, almost diesel like, compression pressure ignition cycle at certain points, it is projected that these will need a GPF, a Gasoline Particulate Filter.

[Gazwould]

The best bit is...

You don't have to have carcinogenic PM2.5 diesel particulates pass into your lungs and bloodstream whilst driving .

But the government is not interested in informing the public how to prevent this , not interested in your health .

Just tax your a$$ .

Busted...

[DMitch16]

The large particles are burnt off, and I assume become smaller particles. Does that make them safer?

No but the DPF captures these finer "ash" particles until it can hold no more then it is chemical clean or replace. As Zollaf states a car with an efficient DPF should have almost spotless tailpipe interiors.

[rowdy-999]

No but the DPF captures these finer "ash" particles until it can hold no more then it is chemical clean or replace..

I think we've just concluded that's not the case.

[DMitch16]

I don't believe that was any of the conclusions was it?

There can still be other deposits expelled from the engine such as oil when the car has an internal oil leak (blue smoke from the exhaust) unburnt fuel (often black smoke from the exhaust) when it is not fuelling properly but the normal operation of the DPF burns trapped soot at a very high temperature leaving ash particles which are collected by the filter.

Are you therefore concluding that PM2.5 particles are expelled from a car with a DPF?

[rowdy-999]

Are you therefore concluding that PM2.5 particles are expelled from a car with a DPF?

Correct.

[DMitch16]

Not correct. The DPF filter captures both PM10 (soot) before regeneration and PM2.5 particulates (ash) after regeneration.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/car-buyers-guide/cbg_toxics.html&ved=0ahUKEwjJzeDg1aHQAhVqI8AKHQ22Ci4QFgg2MAI&usg=AFQjCNEiqbGvY8wY1isXsIRv6m_bXYAa7w&sig2=Knn_wWBR67lwaGar2_77Cg

[rowdy-999]

Not correct. The DPF filter captures both PM10 (soot) before regeneration and PM2.5 particulates (ash) after regeneration.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/car-buyers-guide/cbg_toxics.html&ved=0ahUKEwjJzeDg1aHQAhVqI8AKHQ22Ci4QFgg2MAI&usg=AFQjCNEiqbGvY8wY1isXsIRv6m_bXYAa7w&sig2=Knn_wWBR67lwaGar2_77Cg

If the filter filtered everything it would be blocked in a week.
If you burn something there is always a by-product, usually more by-products. The filter doesn't re-filter these, they go into the atmosphere.

[DMitch16]

It does both in one unit due to its design - Google VW SSP 336 and have a read. Also find the VW SSP 368 for the 125kw engine which will give you a pretty detailed view of the workings of a 170 such as the BMR engine.

Then perhaps an accurate conclusion will be reached.

[rowdy-999]

It does both in one unit due to its design - Google VW SSP 336 and have a read. Also find the VW SSP 368 for the 125kw engine which will give you a pretty detailed view of the workings of a 170 such as the BMR engine.

Then perhaps an accurate conclusion will be reached.

An AA site is hardly scientific is it?
You need to look at the scientific lab reports that state that noxious emissions, and particulate matter both increase dramatically during regeneration.
You can only change or alter, not make magically disappear, the by-products of any combustion process. Its a simple scientific fact.

I think we need to take all of this with a pinch of salt. In the last century most heat and transportation was powered by coal. I dread to think of the amount of crap in the atmosphere.