ASZ TDI cambelt tensioner - can the later friction tensioner be retro fitted to the ealier damper tensioner setup?

[Col]

Evening Gents,

I've just acquired a lovely 2001 GT TDI as the Wifes car. I would like to change the cambelt, waterpump and associated gubbins for peace of mind.

I know that this car at this age will be fitted with the pesky damper tensioner setup which requires the 4mm gap. I've done two of these in the past (AJM'd Golf and an AWX'd Passat) and hate them!

I've also done later belts which have the revised friction tensioner setup which don't have the damper and in comparison are much easier to do, are cheaper and more durable. I'm sure VW increased the belt change interval when they revised the tensioner.


The question is;

Can the later friction tensioner setup be fitted to the earlier engine blocks? I know the belts are the same and as far as I'm aware the only difficulty is going to be if there is anywhere for the idler pulley stud to locate into.

Tricky one not having two car side by side stripped down to compare this.


Any help, views or practical experience most welcomed.

[Firebladepully]

Hi Col,

I have done this exact conversion on my 2002 130 PD GT TDI. So no reason why it cannot be done on yours. The screw hole for the fricton tensioner is the same as for the other style tensioner, just re new that crap idea of a M10 down to M8 stud when you do!! ( both tensioners use the same stud).

The screw hole for fixing the larger idler roller bolt is behind that hydraulic damper unit towards the bottom right. You will also need to renew the black plastic timing cover which is fixed to the block as the locating tab on the friction damper needs the little hole to slot into, this isnt on the hydraulic damper based set up. TPS do these quite cheap, havent got the part numbers for all the bits to hand, but will have them later if needed.
Paul

[Col]

Fantastic news.

I'll be doing this in-car so hopefully the backplate can come out without too much hassle.

The part numbers would very much appreciated.

[Firebladepully]

It is fiddly removing the back plate as there is a couple of plastic tabs/lugs behind the cam pulley, these catch on the metal tabs/lugs on the back of the cam pulley, it can however be manipulated round and out. I am pretty sure the bottom flange holds the bottom tight, so it may be better and easier to remove the cam pulley to do this. I didnt as i had the full front off and bottom timing pulley to renew the crank seal. Which i have the joys of repeating tomorrow.

Everything else will be out the way such as water pump and tensioners so nothing really else to hinder once the cam sensor removed and two bolts holding the backing plate, one to the right of the cam pulley/ sensor area and one on the top left on the rear facing side up near rocker/cam cover. If i get a chance tonight i will get some photos of the backing plates and my invoices for the part numbers.

Paul

[Col]

That would fantastic if you could.

Question for you...

Last time I did a PD belt, on my long gone AJM'd back in about 2005'ish, I had terrible trouble with the engine mount and ended up working round it which was a royal pain. I've done a couple of 1.6 belts since on MK4's, an 8v and a 16v and the engine mount came away without issue.

[Col]

Went down to my local and friendly VAG dealer this morning who were very helpful as they always are, Windrush VW Maidenhead.

Looking at the ETKA screen the back plates are different.

045 109 045 F for the earlier / older dampered tensioner setup
045 109 045H for the later / newer friction tensioner setup.

I ordered one for a little over £18.

If this works it will work out that;


The back plate is cheaper than the damper
The later friction tensioner is easier to fit
The later friction tensioner setup is more durable with it having a larger idler / deflection pulley.

[zollaf]

the pd engine mount is a real pain. you can support the gearbox on a jack, undo the mount and move the engine across an inch or so, this also makes it easier to do the timing belt. other than that its just up and down with the engine. i had one literally fall out once, then couldn't get it back in for ages, oooh the air was blue..

[Col]

Yes I know all about it...

The last time I did a PD engined Golf timing belt was about 10 years ago on my old AJM engined car. That time I worked round the mount, a right royal pain in the...

I've since done two more belt changes on 1.6 petrol Golfs; an 8v which was a doddle and a 16v with the silly little cross cam 2nd belt and didn't have any issues. I've also done a few belt changes on B5.5 Passats with the PD, an early AWX with the stupid dampered tensioner and on my current 2004 AWX which has the friction tensioner. In the past I've loads of other belts as well on old cars we have owned without any issues. The Golf PD due to that engine mount is in a different league though!

With regard to the mounting bracket on the Golf, I plan to remove the lower center dog-bone mount that should allow a fair bit of movement and may even undo the gearbox end mount as well. I would really like to be able to work cleanly with that damned thing out the way.

From my only previous experience of doing this a long time ago I would have tried and tried at the time. Maybe I'm older and wiser now but reading online the overwhelming advice is that it doesn't come out, but, but.... some say that it does.

I'd rather persevere and possibly do a bit more dismantling to be able to get the thing off and out but I'm resigned to the fact that it won't and that the job will be a nightmare, just like last time.


Good news on being able to swap away from the stupid damper though.

[Firebladepully]

Hi Col,

Part numbers are:

Back plate : 045 109 145H
Timing belt kit (no water pump):038 198 119A

I didnt have that much trouble with the engine mount. Lifted motor up to undo top two bolts and lowered to undo the bottom one. Only removed intercooler pipe work from egr down to cooler and pancake pipe, red hose and top air inlet to turbo, release pas pipe from back of block. Mount came out in a cartwheel type motion towards back of car and round to turbo direction.
If you remove dog bone mount, it will be a piece of cake.

Just dont forget to renew that tensioner mounting stud!! It is vital!!

Enjoy!!

Paul

[Firebladepully]

Here are the pics :

The one one the left is the fricton tensioner setup back plate, the one on the right is the awful hydraulic damper setup back plate. It may seem like the fitting around the tensioner looks different as there is a nice big lump of plastic on the left side on the left backing plate, well fear not as that was the case with the back plate on the right, until the tensioner decided enough was enough and vacated the engine, through that side!! Hence the stressing to renew that tensioner bolt!! I did renew mine, just had difficulties with getting the correct gap to try and reduce belt howl, tried 4 different gaps and retried it each time!! No change so reverted to a loose fitting 4mm gap, completely forgetting i had now done what would of been 5 belt and tensioner changes!! They advise to change this stud each time!! Expensive mistake.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m243/Pully1970/IMG_3318.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Pully1970/media/IMG_3318.jpg.html)

[Firebladepully]

This is what it looks like with the bottom crank seal flange in place, this is what is also retaining the back plate in place, hence either removing the crank pulley along with the flange or the easier route of cam wheel off as well as water pump.
This is the hydraulic damper setup:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m243/Pully1970/IMG_3330.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Pully1970/media/IMG_3330.jpg.html)

This is the more favourable friction tensioner setup (minus the tensioner):

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m243/Pully1970/IMG_3333.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Pully1970/media/IMG_3333.jpg.html)

Here is the horrible hydraulic damper unit in place. The bigger idler pulley screw hole is behind the hydraulic damper near the original idler:


http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m243/Pully1970/IMG_3327.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Pully1970/media/IMG_3327.jpg.html)

Here is the screw hole covered by the hydraulic tensioner, you will need the correct stud for this, part number i dont have to hand:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m243/Pully1970/IMG_3335.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Pully1970/media/IMG_3335.jpg.html)

Hope these help :-)

Paul

[Col]

Nice!

Thanks for the piccies.

On the backplate, I don't plan on taking the crank pulley seal housing off so would assume to allow wiggle room as a minimum the outer cam pulley needs to come off. Looks like the inner cam pulley may also need to come off as well.

I also cannot get the mental anguish I had with the engine mount out of my mind last time I did one of these about 10 years ago. It obviously will have to come off / out if I'm changing the back plate. Cartwheeling it out towards the back with possibly a few more pipes out the way seems reasonable though.

I plan to start this maybe Thursday evening, I thankfully have a nicely lit garage.

[Col]

Update...

This is a no-go.

The engine block is not tapped correctly to accept the idler / deflection pulley stud.

I obtained the revision 'H' backplate and the pulley stud hole does not line up with the higher level tapped hole you point to above. With the backplate in place I marked round the idler hole in the cover, see piccy below, I've highlighted where it should be in green, there is no hole tapped in the block in that position.

The next tapped hole above the green dot looks hopeful but there is no corresponding hole in the revision 'H' backcover for that.

Looks like I'll be keeping the hateful damper tensioner setup afterall.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/colin__/DSCF4962_zpsy0oeqrst.jpg

[Ramljak]

I did this conversion last year, and drive it on tuned ARL MK4, after 36000 km my belt snap off 10 teeth. After engine work and compareing hydro and friction typ found that lower hole for idler need to bi driled and taped few cm lower. So I drill and tape it. Drive car for 8 000 km and this time im missing 13 tooth. First time i have contynental timing kit, and after that Dayco one. Now im driveing on OE kit, and after 3500 km have wearing on belt. Need to burn that car 😠😠

[Ramljak]

Photo of broken belthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/89a64b9ed7c6d70c5e15e9679556a159.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/b38caab477ae47ddf01b8bad7e99456c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/d87c16449f3ed9cf2ba797bb5c7dd0d9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/13b4aea3dc60e1cdbd1ad9767f9b00fb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/730f0916afa98c266e13c3503a511c95.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180629/5f1b60712dabcd32fd795e847a687030.jpg

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