Snow + hill + Skid = snapped lower wishbone and deployment of both from airbags

[Jackblack]

Well approached my house today thats sits on a hill. Started from top of the hill and was driving 5-10 mph touched the breaks at the very top of the hill and the car began to slide the full length of the hill ( approx 50 m) all the way down to the bottom of the hill sliding across street and bang the drivers front wheel hit a kerb deploying both front airbags and snapping the wishbone.
Hello insurers what a bummer luckily no one injured but so much for quarto and antilock brakes -mmm.

Oh luckily missed an electrical junction box by inches but at the time when the airbags deployed and never having seen this before the smoke released by the airbag deployment led me to believe the car was electrically arcing or something like that.

Car wouldn't start after the airbag deployment which I've since found out is normal but in my instance left the car in a dangerous position where i couldnt move it away from sitting across the street and in the line of the oncoming traffic in heavy snow for 2 hrs until a tow truck arrived and moved the car.

Also appear my pop out MMI screen is bust as i suspect the passengers airbag when it deployed whacked the screen and goosed its hinges. Its kinds floppy and loose now.

I believe the fact the wishbone snapped is a good thing and means there is a lot less likely a chance of the car being structurally bent. I know the A6 estate is a nearly a full 2 tonnes so the hit on that single point of the wheel would have been massive + the wheel is beyond the repair. I estimate i hit kerb at 25 - 30 mph.

Im estimating an £8k insurance claim.

[Guest 2]

on summer or winter tyres?

[Jackblack]

Pirellis standard tyres that came with the 20" rotors with 6 mm tred all round. Fresh snow 1-2" approx 1-2 hrs old.

[Guest 2]

winter tyres would've saved you i'd say.

[zollaf]

the brakes worked though, but because the tyres had no grip the abs kicked in. thats how it works. as for the smoke from the airbags, its a pyrotecnic charge going off, that creates smoke. car did everything right, just the driver didn't ..
anyway, thought winter tyres were compulsory this time of year in most of europe.. ??

[wja96]

as for the smoke from the airbags, its a pyrotecnic charge going off, that creates smoke.

It's more likely the talcum powder type stuff they pack the airbag in so it doesn't stick together when they pack it.

[wildbeeste]

Really sorry to hear about this but even winter tyres may not have been the answer though they more likely than not would have allowed you to steer but no-one really knows for sure.
( I did have my winter tyres fitted today after watching a number of videos on their efficacy in snow and ice).

I thought insurers were at one time writing off cars involved in any impact hard enough to set off the airbags. Has that changed?

[Jackblack]

Wow such tack and understanding thanks. With some form of sheet ice or something similar underneath the snow maybe you may have had super human skills to levitate the car off the ground to safety. What a balloon not the best of days for our family and thankfully none of us hurt - who needs enemies with comments like that Zollaf. Still your comments are there for all to see and bare witness to your humanity - happy new year.
the brakes worked though, but because the tyres had no grip the abs kicked in. thats how it works. as for the smoke from the airbags, its a pyrotecnic charge going off, that creates smoke. car did everything right, just the driver didn't ..
anyway, thought winter tyres were compulsory this time of year in most of europe.. ??

[Jackblack]

Ive no idea if they wrote them off ill find out i can't imagine so though. The steering wheel airbag is easy to change the dash appears to be in separate pieces that allows for the airbag part to be replaced without having to swap out the full dash. But we will see.
Really sorry to hear about this but even winter tyres may not have been the answer though they more likely than not would have allowed you to steer but no-one really knows for sure.
( I did have my winter tyres fitted today after watching a number of videos on their efficacy in snow and ice).

I thought insurers were at one time writing off cars involved in any impact hard enough to set off the airbags. Has that changed?

[Jackblack]

One great thing though my car phoned 999 automtaically the very second there impact happened .Something i never knew it was programmed to do so. 30 secs after the air bags went off much to my suprise the police were talking to me. Good feature.

[Col]

Gutted.

Glad nobody got hurt. It is a horrible feeling isn't it.

Having something like this happen converts people to winter tyres like nothing else. They really do make a huge difference.

[MarkTM]

Must have been a terrifying experience and glad everyone's OK.

I've fitted winter tyres to my c6 quattro since buying in 2012, although down here I've not had to use them in earnest.

Things I've found are that:

a) My phenomenal Michy PSS wheels tend to spin at low speed on block paving sub 10 degrees even when reversing out of my drive
b) I can buy a used set (6mm) of decent winters for less than £200 (in my case Dunlop Winter 3D's)
c) My summer tyres last much longer so they're over 25k and will most likely last for the summer of 2016 so 30k miles

As many have mentioned it's unclear if winter tyres would have helped, however based on my driving in slightly subzero over the last two days, and seeing the difficult others have experienced, I would say yes.

So if you have the storage space then perhaps sommat to consider.

Interesting to learn that it made the call.

PS: So you are in the UK (well whilst this happened at least), care to share where so anyone with Summer tyres can avoid?

[wja96]

Wow such tact and understanding thanks. With some form of sheet ice or something similar underneath the snow maybe you may have had super human skills to levitate the car off the ground to safety. What a balloon not the best of days for our family and thankfully none of us hurt - who needs enemies with comments like that Zollaf. Still your comments are there for all to see and bare witness to your humanity - happy new year.

There is no general lack of sympathy. You are patently alive and unhurt and had you not been so I think you would have found LOTS of "get well soon" posts.

From what you wrote in the original post you had expected quattro and ABS to efectively 'levitate you off the ground' and in your original post you clearly felt that the car, not the driver, was responsible.

Big, wide, summer tyres are genuinely awful on snow.

The quattro system will find more traction than a front or rear wheel drive car. It will get you moving. If the tyres have no grip then you just end up with 4 spinning wheels instead of two.

Likewise, ABS will actively turn off the brakes if it detects the wheel locking because the tyre has no grip. That is to help you be able to steer, primarily as in many cases a car with 4 locked wheels will stop faster than one with ABS.

Steering is very important, obviously, and you couldn't because you had 4 locked wheels. Because the tyres had no grip.

You can read your original post in several ways. I read it as a salutary lesson to others to make sure they thought twice before venturing out in a 2 tonne car and then thought twice again before trying to tackle hills on fresh snow in a 2 tonne car. I think this is how many people read it and, like Zollaf, thought "He'd gave had a better chance if he'd had winters on". Winter tyres are a legal requirement in most countries because they work. Get some for your next car. Or an all-season tyre with a snowflake on it. They're almost as good. Even if you don't think you need them. The one day you do need them, they will be there for you. And if you do still crash then it will probably be much less severe.

From this last post you obviously want the Internet to show massive sympathy because I suspect inside you probably realise that you were not in control of your 2 tonne car as it plummeted down the hill with your nearest and dearest strapped inside it. And you feel a bit guilty. And the nearest and dearest concerned are probably starting to give you grief because they know that you were not in control.

And your beautiful car is wrecked. And you feel a bit sad about that too.

Sadly, the Internet isn't, by and large, a loving, caring, place. It's a lake full of very hungry piranhas with often inadequate social skills and you are VERY lucky no-one posted "what an idiot, thinking having a 4 wheel drive car would let him drive on snow with ski-like 20" summer tyres on". And "where are the pictures?".

I'm not unsympathetic but it's like watching crashes on F1. They very happily show the ones where people survived, but they never replay the ones where they died. You were unhurt. Expect little sympathy.

The reason most insurers automatically write off cars that deploy airbags us because they are almost be definition BIG collisions. You stopped sufficiently fast from 25-30mph that the car thought you'd hit a brick wall. The wishbone broke because it took the primary impact, but it might well still be a write-off because you can't see much of the damage until the put it on a jig and measure if it's straight or not.

I am am very happy you are well. Pictures are also good....

[Jackblack]

I never took to posting to this forum for sympathy or for the obvious realisation being pointed out that the car was outside of my control due to the ice and snow. Its a common fact that there is an exponential increase in car damage during the snowy and icy periods - takes no einstein to point that out. WJA 96 and Zollof you are the only two who have posted negatively ( god knows why ) and used our families misfortune as some opportunity to push scorn or blame onto an already difficult situation. Ill move on and let you get on with your agenda. Personally speaking though id never dream of contemplating putting the boot in on someones else misfortune in order to boost my own superior sense of self and by the way the internet is full of helpful courteous people and thankfully a limited amount who work in the opposite direction.
There is no general lack of sympathy. You are patently alive and unhurt and had you not been so I think you would have found LOTS of "get well soon" posts.

From what you wrote in the original post you had expected quattro and ABS to efectively 'levitate you off the ground' and in your original post you clearly felt that the car, not the driver, was responsible.

Big, wide, summer tyres are genuinely awful on snow.

The quattro system will find more traction than a front or rear wheel drive car. It will get you moving. If the tyres have no grip then you just end up with 4 spinning wheels instead of two.

Likewise, ABS will actively turn off the brakes if it detects the wheel locking because the tyre has no grip. That is to help you be able to steer, primarily as in many cases a car with 4 locked wheels will stop faster than one with ABS.

Steering is very important, obviously, and you couldn't because you had 4 locked wheels. Because the tyres had no grip.

You can read your original post in several ways. I read it as a salutary lesson to others to make sure they thought twice before venturing out in a 2 tonne car and then thought twice again before trying to tackle hills on fresh snow in a 2 tonne car. I think this is how many people read it and, like Zollaf, thought "He'd gave had a better chance if he'd had winters on". Winter tyres are a legal requirement in most countries because they work. Get some for your next car. Or an all-season tyre with a snowflake on it. They're almost as good. Even if you don't think you need them. The one day you do need them, they will be there for you. And if you do still crash then it will probably be much less severe.

From this last post you obviously want the Internet to show massive sympathy because I suspect inside you probably realise that you were not in control of your 2 tonne car as it plummeted down the hill with your nearest and dearest strapped inside it. And you feel a bit guilty. And the nearest and dearest concerned are probably starting to give you grief because they know that you were not in control.

And your beautiful car is wrecked. And you feel a bit sad about that too.

Sadly, the Internet isn't, by and large, a loving, caring, place. It's a lake full of very hungry piranhas with often inadequate social skills and you are VERY lucky no-one posted "what an idiot, thinking having a 4 wheel drive car would let him drive on snow with ski-like 20" summer tyres on". And "where are the pictures?".

I'm not unsympathetic but it's like watching crashes on F1. They very happily show the ones where people survived, but they never replay the ones where they died. You were unhurt. Expect little sympathy.

The reason most insurers automatically write off cars that deploy airbags us because they are almost be definition BIG collisions. You stopped sufficiently fast from 25-30mph that the car thought you'd hit a brick wall. The wishbone broke because it took the primary impact, but it might well still be a write-off because you can't see much of the damage until the put it on a jig and measure if it's straight or not.

I am am very happy you are well. Pictures are also good....

[Whippy53]

Whilst I sympathize with you and I'm glad everyone is OK I do feel that in some small way Audi (or rather audi's marketing dept) have a part to play in incidents like this. They like to portray the quattro system as making their cars mostly invincible in poor weather and I'm sure it comes as a shock to discover that's not quite true.

[morski]

Sorry to hear what happened and to echo what has been said; at least you are ok and the car did its job of protecting you. Samll impacts like your can set the airbag systems off and as ive seen much more severe impacts where the airbags have not deployed. Its not the severity of the impact but how much of an abrupt stop you come to that i believe triggers the airbags
Put it down to a learning experience where you dont rely too much on the cars 'reputation' to save you. Maybe worth it if you practice on a open private car park with permission of the land owner some skid control or pay to go on a coarse. I think all drivers in this country should do it. Other countries its compulsary.
Drivers airbag is easily replaced but passenger airbag needs a new dashboard as well and your seatbelt would have deployed too taking the slack out of the belt. Bent suspension and possibly subframe. Realignment of suspension etc etc can and will run into the thousands.

[fest0r]

I don’t know how you feel about it Jack, but I might prefer the car to be written off. I suppose it depends how old the car is and if there is structural damage, be prepared either way because it’s a possibility.

Don’t worry about posting pics either. Even if I was forced to take them for insurance purposes I wouldn’t want to actually look at them ever again. I did the same thing in a beloved Mk1 Golf over 20 years ago and it’s still painful to think about.

On a side note, it’s got me wondering about the stronic/dsg in mine and how it compares to a manual or tiptronic A6 in the snow? Even without the control of a manual it seems very planted with Nokian WR A3’s, but I haven’t driven the others in snow... or even an auto (in the snow) for over 10 years.

[Guest 2]

both my old a6 quattro tiptronic and now a4 quattro s-tronic both with winter tyres are fine on the snow, if you don't want it to change up a gear unexpectedly then either work the gears yourself in M or put it into sport which will keep it in the current gear for the speed.

[wja96]

I never took to posting to this forum for sympathy or for the obvious realisation being pointed out that the car was outside of my control due to the ice and snow. Its a common fact that there is an exponential increase in car damage during the snowy and icy periods - takes no einstein to point that out. WJA 96 and Zollof you are the only two who have posted negatively ( god knows why ) and used our families misfortune as some opportunity to push scorn or blame onto an already difficult situation. Ill move on and let you get on with your agenda. Personally speaking though id never dream of contemplating putting the boot in on someones else misfortune in order to boost my own superior sense of self and by the way the internet is full of helpful courteous people and thankfully a limited amount who work in the opposite direction.

Your family's misfortune? Seriously? 26 years ago my 8 year old daughter was knocked down and killed by a hit and run driver who was never caught. That's a family misfortune.

4 years ago my wife of 20 years was diagnosed with uterine cancer and died shortly after. That's a family misfortune.

Please don't try to equate a minor car accident where everyone walked away and you're comprehensively insured with a genuine family misfortune. I genuinely hope and pray you never, ever, suffer a family misfortune.

[Jackblack]

The thing is i wasn't driving recklessly or going particularly fast 5-10 mph and right at the top of the hill the car went into a slide immediately. 2 hrs before and there was no snow on the road.
Whilst I sympathize with you and I'm glad everyone is OK I do feel that in some small way Audi (or rather audi's marketing dept) have a part to play in incidents like this. They like to portray the quattro system as making their cars mostly invincible in poor weather and I'm sure it comes as a shock to discover that's not quite true.

[Jackblack]

Im so sorry for your misfortune. I too have several things quite similar to yours happening in our family right now and but i won't discuss it on here. We really didn't need this as well. But criticising each other is not going to help anyone. Peace.
Your family's misfortune? Seriously? 26 years ago my 8 year old daughter was knocked down and killed by a hit and run driver who was never caught. That's a family misfortune.

4 years ago my wife of 20 years was diagnosed with uterine cancer and died shortly after. That's a family misfortune.

Please don't try to equate a minor car accident where everyone walked away and you're comprehensively insured with a genuine family misfortune. I genuinely hope and pray you never, ever, suffer a family misfortune.

[Jackblack]

I have Gap insurance thankfully but I'm not sure how all that will pan out as car is like £55k list inc added extras. Car is 18 months old.
I don’t know how you feel about it Jack, but I might prefer the car to be written off. I suppose it depends how old the car is and if there is structural damage, be prepared either way because it’s a possibility.

Don’t worry about posting pics either. Even if I was forced to take them for insurance purposes I wouldn’t want to actually look at them ever again. I did the same thing in a beloved Mk1 Golf over 20 years ago and it’s still painful to think about.

On a side note, it’s got me wondering about the stronic/dsg in mine and how it compares to a manual or tiptronic A6 in the snow? Even without the control of a manual it seems very planted with Nokian WR A3’s, but I haven’t driven the others in snow... or even an auto (in the snow) for over 10 years.

[Jackblack]

Im with you on practising on carparks and open ground and have made a point of doing it myself over the years. On this occasion though the hill road is narrow with little or no option to stop momentum once the car started sliding. I thought about it quite a bit last night and was wondering if i had managed to get it into reverse while travelling down the hill ( if thats possible that is) would i have been able to influence the slide. God knows.
Sorry to hear what happened and to echo what has been said; at least you are ok and the car did its job of protecting you. Samll impacts like your can set the airbag systems off and as ive seen much more severe impacts where the airbags have not deployed. Its not the severity of the impact but how much of an abrupt stop you come to that i believe triggers the airbags
Put it down to a learning experience where you dont rely too much on the cars 'reputation' to save you. Maybe worth it if you practice on a open private car park with permission of the land owner some skid control or pay to go on a coarse. I think all drivers in this country should do it. Other countries its compulsary.
Drivers airbag is easily replaced but passenger airbag needs a new dashboard as well and your seatbelt would have deployed too taking the slack out of the belt. Bent suspension and possibly subframe. Realignment of suspension etc etc can and will run into the thousands.

[morski]

Whats done is done. As they say no point in crying over spilt milk. Leave it to the insurers to sort out and get on with your life as these are all materialistic things. Good luck

[fest0r]

Well it would have to be pretty extensive damage to be written off, but GAP insurance will save the day ;)

[Jackblack]

Indeed Whippy 53. As in this the latest advert from Audi Audi quattro: Driving confidence, whatever the weather - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=tNEHt1kFl10) or this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SuCcRd79rc
Whilst I sympathize with you and I'm glad everyone is OK I do feel that in some small way Audi (or rather audi's marketing dept) have a part to play in incidents like this. They like to portray the quattro system as making their cars mostly invincible in poor weather and I'm sure it comes as a shock to discover that's not quite true.

[Jackblack]

I think its not a right off. New wheel, new osf suspension, new dash new steering wheel airbag, programming new wing maybe new door + paint = £8-10 k.
Well it would have to be pretty extensive damage to be written off, but GAP insurance will save the day ;)

[Jackblack]

Or this !!! Audi Snow climbing - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1-n0TV5y6w)

Indeed Whippy 53. As in this the latest advert from Audi Audi quattro: Driving confidence, whatever the weather - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=tNEHt1kFl10) or this one Audi quattro The Forecast Commercial Extended Cut 2015 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SuCcRd79rc)

[hshah]

I thought insurers were at one time writing off cars involved in any impact hard enough to set off the airbags. Has that changed?

I work for a large UK insurer (on the IT side but still know our claims process inside out) and I do not believe this has ever been the case. We use questions like "were the airbags deployed" to assess whether the car may be a total loss, but ultimately it is down to the level of damage, make/model of the car and its vehicle market value. Our handlers never fully know until it has been assessed by the engineers.


I thought I would test my Quattro for the first time last night in the snow, an whilst the traction was pretty good when accelerating, I might as well have been sitting on a 2 tonne palette of bricks when I came down a hill. Luckily it was 5am, slid straight through a give way sign and managed to put some power down and turn the car towards a clear stretch of road. Had I even attempted to steer towards the direction I wanted to go I would have most definitely slammed into the kerb on the opposite side.

I think people tend to forget that the Quattro may make you go faster, but the stopping power is no different to any other 2 wheel drive car (regardless of whether its front or rear). The cars this size are more or less 2 tonne lumps of metal sliding around.

[MarkTM]

Hshah, do you have winter wheels fitted that seems to be the main issue whether 2 or 4 wheel drive, admittedly even an AWD with winter rubber can 'let go' but there is more chance of regaining control at low speeds.

[hshah]

Hshah, do you have winter wheels fitted that seems to be the main issue whether 2 or 4 wheel drive, admittedly even an AWD with winter rubber can 'let go' but there is more chance of regaining control at low speeds.

I don't because I am in South London and we only get this sort of weather a few days a year. Majority of the roads are well gritted... I had to go looking for a place to test the car last night :)

[Splash]

Hshah, do you have winter wheels fitted that seems to be the main issue whether 2 or 4 wheel drive, admittedly even an AWD with winter rubber can 'let go' but there is more chance of regaining control at low speeds.

We all know you meant to say tyres not wheels Mark.:biglaugh:

I agree somewhat that Audi marketing suggests that quattro is invincible, but they also promote fitment of winter tyres more than any of their competitors (whose adverts aren't really on my radar anyway). Tried my Nokian Weatherproofs out in earnest today in about 3 inches of snow. Awesome in the virgin snow up/down the drive at speeds of over 30 mph uphill. Not bad on the road either where just a single central track was worn. Wanted a bit of experience (and some food) on a quiet day. If anyone else is thinking of them, this year's SUV production (so allroad size for C7) now come with Aramid reinforced sidewalls which should resist kerbing better. A definite "recommend".

I feel for Jack (the OP) as he had more confidence in his car then he should have had. A lesson learned all round. Don't kick a dog when it's down; but those smiley things can come in very handy to help convey the mood of an otherwise ambiguous post. I've re-read some of mine in the past and wished I'd used them.

Wonder if the car can call 999/112 if just a data SIM is present and there's no bluetooth connection for voice?

Given the passenger airbag deployment warrants a replacement dashboard, does anyone know if it remains inactive if there is no weight detected on the passenger seat? I have a feeling that the C6 was clever enough to not heat an unoccupied passenger seat (I think) so perhaps it's deactivated - or perhaps it deploys anyway for "belt and braces" safety.

[A6S]

I think people don't understand that winter tyres are designed for wet, dry, snow and potentially mud or whatever the road conditions are. Most importantly work better than normal tyres below the 7 degrees as they use a soft compound that doesn't harden like summer tyres. Your summer tyres could have 8mm tread but it will be next to useless in the snow with or without Quattro.
When I put my winters on a few weeks back I noticed it straight away in the wet weather, more grip and it would go through massive puddles like it wasn't there, the michelins ps had 7mm tread and was nowhere near as good especially when it came to braking in the cold. In the few inches of snow over the last few days the car didn't even twitch even under a bit of power. Just kept gripping and no drama.
my mate has a rwd with winters and he's had no problem running about in the snow over the last few days.

[Guest 2]

I think people don't understand that winter tyres are designed for wet, dry, snow and potentially mud or whatever the road conditions are. Most importantly work better than normal tyres below the 7 degrees as they use a soft compound that doesn't harden like summer tyres. Your summer tyres could have 8mm tread but it will be next to useless in the snow with or without Quattro.
When I put my winters on a few weeks back I noticed it straight away in the wet weather, more grip and it would go through massive puddles like it wasn't there, the michelins ps had 7mm tread and was nowhere near as good especially when it came to braking in the cold. In the few inches of snow over the last few days the car didn't even twitch even under a bit of power. Just kept gripping and no drama.
my mate has a rwd with winters and he's had no problem running about in the snow over the last few days.

Someone who understands! :D

[hshah]

I think people don't understand that winter tyres are designed for wet, dry, snow and potentially mud or whatever the road conditions are. Most importantly work better than normal tyres below the 7 degrees as they use a soft compound that doesn't harden like summer tyres. Your summer tyres could have 8mm tread but it will be next to useless in the snow with or without Quattro.
When I put my winters on a few weeks back I noticed it straight away in the wet weather, more grip and it would go through massive puddles like it wasn't there, the michelins ps had 7mm tread and was nowhere near as good especially when it came to braking in the cold. In the few inches of snow over the last few days the car didn't even twitch even under a bit of power. Just kept gripping and no drama.
my mate has a rwd with winters and he's had no problem running about in the snow over the last few days.


Someone who understands! :D

Whilst I get what you guys are saying, I also understand that when road conditions are not ideal for my summer tyres my car will not handle as well. Therefore I adapt my driving style to suit the road. I personally don't have the space to store 4 spare tyres and swap them with the varying conditions... if I had the space I so would go down that route. I will just make do with what I have, and watch out for idiots who go flying past in all weather conditions not actually realising that it isn't safe.

[Jackblack]

HI Splash,

Car had both data sim and iPhone 6 attached by bluetooth. I checked the history on the iPhone just there and it came up with this 112 @ 14:08 hrs yesterday. So it appears the iPhone made the call. I wonder if the sim would have done the same if for example i had not brought my iPhone out with me. The other thing that i think happned but can't really confirm was that the rear windows opened slightly i.e "1" inch. Now in the confusion of the crash and bystanders asking if i was ok while the police were on the phone at the same time i don't know if i inadevrtenty opened them or they auto oped to let the smoke ( not talcum power) out from the interior. The smoke was fairly accred and if you had asthma could be quite toxic and trigger an attack - I'm not sure.

Ive never used the 112 number before in my life i never even new it existed so something in the car prompted the iPhone to auto dial this number. The question is was the trigger the airbag deployment or the the car hitting the kerb at 25 mph approx ?

"The European emergency number 112 is not the only emergency number in the UK. It is used alongside the national emergency number 999. Disabled people can contact 112 via SMS (this requires preregistration) or text relay using the access code 18000. It is not possible to call 112 from a mobile phone without a SIM card."

We all know you meant to say tyres not wheels Mark.:biglaugh:

I agree somewhat that Audi marketing suggests that quattro is invincible, but they also promote fitment of winter tyres more than any of their competitors (whose adverts aren't really on my radar anyway). Tried my Nokian Weatherproofs out in earnest today in about 3 inches of snow. Awesome in the virgin snow up/down the drive at speeds of over 30 mph uphill. Not bad on the road either where just a single central track was worn. Wanted a bit of experience (and some food) on a quiet day. If anyone else is thinking of them, this year's SUV production (so allroad size for C7) now come with Aramid reinforced sidewalls which should resist kerbing better. A definite "recommend".

I feel for Jack (the OP) as he had more confidence in his car then he should have had. A lesson learned all round. Don't kick a dog when it's down; but those smiley things can come in very handy to help convey the mood of an otherwise ambiguous post. I've re-read some of mine in the past and wished I'd used them.

Wonder if the car can call 999/112 if just a data SIM is present and there's no bluetooth connection for voice?

Given the passenger airbag deployment warrants a replacement dashboard, does anyone know if it remains inactive if there is no weight detected on the passenger seat? I have a feeling that the C6 was clever enough to not heat an unoccupied passenger seat (I think) so perhaps it's deactivated - or perhaps it deploys anyway for "belt and braces" safety.

[Jackblack]

No front passenger yet airbag deployed.
We all know you meant to say tyres not wheels Mark.:biglaugh:

I agree somewhat that Audi marketing suggests that quattro is invincible, but they also promote fitment of winter tyres more than any of their competitors (whose adverts aren't really on my radar anyway). Tried my Nokian Weatherproofs out in earnest today in about 3 inches of snow. Awesome in the virgin snow up/down the drive at speeds of over 30 mph uphill. Not bad on the road either where just a single central track was worn. Wanted a bit of experience (and some food) on a quiet day. If anyone else is thinking of them, this year's SUV production (so allroad size for C7) now come with Aramid reinforced sidewalls which should resist kerbing better. A definite "recommend".

I feel for Jack (the OP) as he had more confidence in his car then he should have had. A lesson learned all round. Don't kick a dog when it's down; but those smiley things can come in very handy to help convey the mood of an otherwise ambiguous post. I've re-read some of mine in the past and wished I'd used them.

Wonder if the car can call 999/112 if just a data SIM is present and there's no bluetooth connection for voice?

Given the passenger airbag deployment warrants a replacement dashboard, does anyone know if it remains inactive if there is no weight detected on the passenger seat? I have a feeling that the C6 was clever enough to not heat an unoccupied passenger seat (I think) so perhaps it's deactivated - or perhaps it deploys anyway for "belt and braces" safety.

[Splash]

my mate has a rwd with winters and he's had no problem running about in the snow over the last few days.

Agree with Chris (yes, I said it publicly :beerchug:). A BMW winter driving course 15 years ago made me realise the advantage of RWD on winters over quattro on summers. Throughout most of the year my biggest foe is standing water on straightish high speed roads. An open pattern with M+S (>20% open) is probably more appropriate to me than something more performance focused e.g. OE fitment, hence my choice of tyre which remains compromised outside its large sweet spot in my circumstances. I just have to accept this and drive accordingly or less practically fit something for those more extreme conditions. No single tyre covers every eventuality so its important to know when performance is tailing off and to pick tyres that cover most conditions either at extremes (summer vs winter/CWT) or throughout the year (all-seasons), which themselves offer a spectrum of winter biased (Nokian Weatherproof) vs summer biased (Mich CrossClimate).

That's just for tarmac roads...

Don't get me started on my theory of Kamm circles and inverted squash balls ;)

[El-Cap]

Never nice to ding your car - but main thing is you are OK!

ABS has flaws in winter conditions. It thinks the car is skidding so does its on/off breaking thing which actually in those condtions lengthens your stopping ability. Low speed manoevures seem to be a particular issue. I had a situation years ago when ABS was newish and had to use the handbrake to stop a smiliar thing happening.

Best advice is always to stay in gear in winter, use engine braking and minimise foot brake use. Old advice but rings true today.

[diecastsink]

weight detected on the passenger seat? I have a feeling that the C6 was clever enough to not heat an unoccupied passenger seat (I think) so perhaps it's deactivated - or perhaps it deploys anyway for "belt and braces" safety.

All seats on my MY12 have passenger detection (you can see those funny beer bottles representing back seats in FIS). Whether they are used for airbag launch, I suppose so. At least with comfort seats, it is not used for heating as leather seats can be pre-heated for Mrs. What a great function, but knowing Audi it could be just a mistake.

[EssexGonzo]

To the OP, glad you're OK and that the safety features of the car helped to keep you all safe.

There's a rich history on the forum (and elsewhere) of those who have quattro-equipped cars justifying their purchase by quoting the prowess and safety of the car in poor and cold weather. In reality, it's a been a genuis stroke of marketing by Audi based on some rallying they did in the 80's. They get millions of folks to buy quattro at £x,000 extra a time when they won't use it, need it or notice it the vast majority of the time.

"Ah, but it's there when I need it". Rubbish. It only helps acceleration and how often does one really NEED quattro on the road? It's a nice to have, albeit a clever one. Merc and BMW drivers seem to get by OK, although BMW are bringing more and more X-Drive cars over here as a marketing exercise.

The OP needed help on the snow but that was with steering and stopping (not acceleration) which only winter tyres would provide. My old FWD auto would accelerate and brake on snow as if it was mildly wet tarmac - and it spent at least 30 weeks doing so in the Alps whilst I had it.

And before all the quattro owners have a go about my cynicism - I speak now as someone who has a quattro equipped car :rolleyes: but only because I couldn't get the one I wanted without it.

And on the subject of the cost of winter tyres.....they're not really an additional cost. Whilst your summer are in the shed, they're not wearing out! If it was a choice between them and, say, a tech pack or larger alloys, I can't see why you'd really not go for the tyres.

[Royston Ford]

EssexGonzo just nailed this one. I just wanted to add a note of thanks that nobody was hurt and a final summary that if you have 2mt of car hanging on a road/tyre gradient and interface with 1mt of grip, then the car is going to the bottom of the hill uncontrolled and it doesn't matter what tech, engine and transmission you have. Hang on and wait until you hit something, hopefully soft and definitely inanimate. Once over the crest, the OP can take comfort there was no other possible outcome.

[loz65]

A little off topic, but for getting UP hill in snow is it best to drive with the ESP turned OFF?

[EssexGonzo]

A little off topic, but for getting UP hill in snow is it best to drive with the ESP turned OFF?

I don't know if there's any theory about this but on snow I want as much electronic help as possible. I wouldn't have though spinning the driving wheels would help - although it can be fun. [emoji12]

Winter tyres are designed to trap snow which then grips to snow better, reducing slip.

[rowdy-999]

Wow such tack and understanding thanks. With some form of sheet ice or something similar underneath the snow maybe you may have had super human skills to levitate the car off the ground to safety. What a balloon not the best of days for our family and thankfully none of us hurt - who needs enemies with comments like that Zollaf. Still your comments are there for all to see and bare witness to your humanity - happy new year.

I keep looking at Zollafs post and can't see anything wrong with it??
As for your phone ringing the police in a minor, low speed collision, it sounds like a great way to waste their time.

[Splash]

I keep looking at Zollafs post and can't see anything wrong with it??

No, nor me really as I don't think any malice was intended, just a touch of friendly sarcasm. We've probably all cocked up at some point and had the Mickey taken by our mates. It's just that in black and white this can be misinterpreted, especially if someone's feeling a bit sensitive. A "dislike" then escalates the situation and polarises the parties often leading to regrettable posts and retaliatory dislikes. Been there and found "dislike" is interpreted stronger than anticipated - an F-bomb rather than a sarcastic "thanks, you've been so helpful - not".

Matrimonial spats are often short lived unless other members of the household wade in...

[wildbore]

...As for your phone ringing the police in a minor, low speed collision, it sounds like a great way to waste their time.

I think the OP said his car phoned the emergency services, not his phone. I didn't know that the A6 does this, although some cars do. Anyway, the EU has mandated this for all cars by 2018, so all our cars will be done for wasting police time at that point.

BTW: The way I read your post, it sounded distinctly like you were having a pop at the OP, holding him in some way responsible for the time-wasting actions of an automated system, but I am sure that wasn't the case :p.

[Eshrules]

I keep looking at Zollafs post and can't see anything wrong with it??
As for your phone ringing the police in a minor, low speed collision, it sounds like a great way to waste their time.

If you read the rest of the thread (as I just have) you'll see the discussion move on in a mature manner.

We like discussions that move on from sticky points in a mature manner here on VWAF.

We don't like members who try to bring that mature discussion back to the sticky point that the discussion has moved on from.

Wildbore has dealt with your second point which I agree was a sly dig at the OP.

Everybody's playing nicely in the playpen at the moment - knock it off please ;)

[diecastsink]

I don't know if there's any theory about this but on snow I want as much electronic help as possible. I wouldn't have though spinning the driving wheels would help - although it can be fun. [emoji12]

Winter tyres are designed to trap snow which then grips to snow better, reducing slip.

IRL you should take it into sport mode (C7: not putting ESP off but loosening it and removing traction control) to get going on heavy snow (well, heavy might be different here...) otherwise you ramp down power and torque which leads to stu.. sorry I mean stop. Also when cornering, it is better to get the power towards the steering direction not just decelerating with electronics - just be gentle with throttle.

Some winters ago I drove a half a mile uphill on a gravel road with 37 cm snow (images available on request) and it would be impossible with all the electronics. You just need to practice so don't try this at home and on a public road! Audi winter driving school (been there few times) is recommended. Not good but you might get some idea: Audi Ice Driving Experience - Winter driving tips from Audi - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_0JmohoRI) .

That's why I like torsen and mechanical watches - they do not fail on bits and bytes. By the way, we have studs on winter tyres...

[Splash]

IRL you should take it into sport mode (C7: not putting ESP off but loosening it and removing traction control) to get going on heavy snow (well, heavy might be different here...) otherwise you ramp down power and torque which leads to stu.. sorry I mean stop. Also when cornering, it is better to get the power towards the steering direction not just decelerating with electronics - just be gentle with throttle.

Some winters ago I drove a half a mile uphill on a gravel road with 37 cm snow (images available on request) and it would be impossible with all the electronics. You just need to practice so don't try this at home and on a public road! Audi winter driving school (been there few times) is recommended. Not good but you might get some idea: Audi Ice Driving Experience - Winter driving tips from Audi - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn_0JmohoRI) .

That's why I like torsen and mechanical watches - they do not fail on bits and bytes. By the way, we have studs on winter tyres...

Yeah, mine's got a mechanical depth gauge - not for floods though. ;)

C7 ESP is a more sophisticated beast to that of years ago when I remember the recommendation was to disable it. I remember seeing an E-Class stuck in the mud at the 2000 British GP at Silverstone. I felt sorry for the driver's young son who was made to fruitlessly push his dad's automatic barge while the ESP kept cutting in. I guess the traction control activates some "off-road" mode on the allroad which approximates snow to other loose surfaces, but I don't know whether this works on related systems or other variants. I need some more/deeper snow to experiment with. Not sure about the allroad's hill descent function in snow and it's potentially a bit too risky to experiment with unless there's plenty of space.

Trouble is on my regular 300 miler the conditions can change dramatically during the normal 4 1/2 hour journey time, especially over Shap. Bit the bullet and got some Easy Grip chains this year which I keep easily accessible in the rear footwell under the seats where they don't restrict ventilation. Be warned, you pay a premium for the 4x4 setup but still only get a pair.

[A6S]

That's why I like torsen and mechanical watches - they do not fail on bits and bytes. By the way, we have studs on winter tyres...

I find the torsen mechanical(proper 4wd) works bests on snowy/icy roads.
My Mrs has the Haldex type 4wd and in the snow last weekend it didn't feel as planted as my a6.
When the front starts slipping the back end kicks in and then the front and so on. So it felt like it was battling for grip between front and back. You could feel the power transferring from the front to back and back again. The a6 however just went, no drama, no tail out action nothing to write home about(a bit boring). Which is what most people want.
Don't get me wrong the Haldex type did its job but it can take a bit getting used to and you can make it kinda power slide so a bit of fun can be had but for most days like commuting to work you probably just want the feeling of driving though a puddle rather than power sliding everywhere 😄

[Jackblack]

Spoke to the recovery driver and he told me the wishbone on these Audis are designed to snap at a certain load point in order to save the cars chassis/ frame from absorbing the massive impact and bending or warping.

[Splash]

Spoke to the recovery driver and he told me the wishbone on these Audis are designed to snap at a certain load point in order to save the cars chassis/ frame from absorbing the massive impact and bending or warping.

Useful info (at least I didn't already know this), so thanks for updating this and some of the other answers too. Helps us all in the bigger picture. :)

[zollaf]

i just tell stuff the way it is. no one was injured, therefore there is no problem. same thing happens when people have a brand new range rover with 20'' road tyres and can't work out why they won't grip in the snow.
this is the reason i have gone over to using michelin cross climate tyres. they are a winter tyre that you can use in the summer. i have yet to test them in snow as we havn't had any in pembs as yet, but the wet grip is amazing..

[Phutters]

...this is the reason i have gone over tom using michelin cross climate tyres.You're a heartless man.

Is he still alive?

.

[zollaf]

squished, he is properly squished. :)

[Splash]

20'' road tyres and can't work out why they won't grip in the snow.
this is the reason i have gone over tom using michelin cross climate tyres. they are a winter tyre that you can use in the summer. i have yet to test them in snow as we havn't had any in pembs as yet, but the wet grip is amazing..

Back in 2003 when the future was looking rosy I had a Cayenne Turbo which narrowly avoided a very expensive accident by overshooting a snowy "Give Way". Back then 275/40 R20 winters were rare as hens' teeth but I fitted them before getting rid of the ugly thing which was doing its damnedest to kill me in both winter and summer conditions. Returned to planet Earth with another trusty allroad - safety and sanity and possibly even street cred restored.


Got some old unused spray cans of RS Blue, Nogaro Blue and VW Jazz Blue (all v.v. similar) if they're any use to you Zollaf. Maybe even a Sprint Blue although I think that's a pen and a bit more girly than the others. ;)

FOC in case anyone's concerned about covert sales etc. etc. Never got round to spraying my bike, so another Nogaro owner can benefit, although probably easier and fresher to get some mixed if needed.

[zollaf]

nice offer thanks. :( i have just done some spray work on her but she may well be going soon . too fast and scary for my driving licence, and i am hankering after another discovery. i love the s4 to bits, but seriously, its just too much power and far too quick for its own good.

[Westyfield2]

Ouch. At least the car kept the occupants safe.

TBH though it's a bit of a problem with Quattro and other 4WD/AWD systems. Yes the four driving wheels gets us going, but unless we're on winter tyres, when we come to stopping we're in the same boat as every other 2WD vehicle.


anyway, thought winter tyres were compulsory this time of year in most of europe.. ??
Same. Here in the UK it's a choice, but in Europe I thought they were mandatory.
Out of interest @OP, what country are you in? Profile just says "Europe".

[Jackblack]

Well both Audi and the insurance assessor have had a look. Don't know final bill but parts are over £9k exc labour.

In further note to my previous post relating to the fact my car phoned the emergency services automatically.
When talking with the bodyshop person on the phone i told him about my car doing this and he went on to tell me told of a story where an Audi driver was knocked out unconscious during a crash but was woken up with the voice of the Emergency services talking to him saying something along of the lines don't worry sir we are on our way to get you everything will be fine and they kept talking with him until the servcies arrived. Pretty amazing i thought hearing that story. All we need know is a GPRS app that also locates the cars position to direct the services to the vehicle. I mean the iPhone has this already its not great leap of technology to actualise this with the car as part of the next generation MMI i would believe.

Westfield im in the Uk.


Ouch. At least the car kept the occupants safe.

TBH though it's a bit of a problem with Quattro and other 4WD/AWD systems. Yes the four driving wheels gets us going, but unless we're on winter tyres, when we come to stopping we're in the same boat as every other 2WD vehicle.


Same. Here in the UK it's a choice, but in Europe I thought they were mandatory.
Out of interest @OP, what country are you in? Profile just says "Europe".

[zollaf]

so are you going to tell us where this all happened ?

[ukgroucho]

Sorry you bumped your pride and joy but it's a salutary lesson that you still need to be cautious even with 4wd - and especially without winter tyres.

In terms of braking in snow.. Engine braking with 4wd is your best first call if you need to lose some speed. Would not have helped much in your case (and sticking in it reverse would have done nothing other than possibly spin the car) but it allows all 4 wheels to try to slow the car without ABS getting involved.

I don't consider myself an expert in driving in snow but I have done a fair bit - and quite a bit the last week (skiing in Northern California). Had a horrific slide on black ice on one of the "A" roads leading to the ski resort we favor 4 or 5 days ago... Cars spun off around us and a dis arrayed line of stopped cars - and the Ford Expedition rental I'd got trying to slide sideways (quickly fixed) but then refusing to stop as the ABS generally "just got in the way". I resorted to cadence braking and dropping down gears on the auto.

At the end of the day there is no substitute for practice in these conditions - but practice based on some basic "best practices" and also good rubber under the car (or even chains).

[wildbore]

...sticking in it reverse would have done nothing other than possibly spin the car...

Years ago I stopped a Audi 200 quattro that was sliding down a steep hill by popping it into reverse and applying loads of throttle. I reckon that doing this on a FWD car might spin the car, but it should be fine in RWD and 4WD. Certainly worked for me and, in my case, the prospect of what lay ahead (a main road with cross traffic) was much worse than the prospect of sliding sideways into the kerb.

[hshah]

When these cars start sliding down a hill (steepish one)... you may as well be rolling a 2 tonne boulder down the hill.

Putting it in reverse seems like an interesting option. Is it bad that I now want to try it?

[A6S]

Using reverse can have negative effects, probably knacker gearbox. Abs should help steer the car to a point.
I always found in ice and snow yanking the handbrake works, at least you will do a kinda of handbrake turn towards the kerb. Will also lock up the back wheels so abs doesn't release the brakes.
These electronic handbrake still works like a manual one even if the car is moving. Instant lock up in my experience.

[hshah]

When I was sliding down a hill last week I found that when I released the brake pedal in order to try and get the wheels rolling again, the brake did not disengage. The pedal remained pressed down and the ABS was still activated. The only way I could get it to disengage was by tapping the accelerator. Is that normal?

[EssexGonzo]

probably knacker gearbox.

That was my thought too. A degree of mechanical courage needed! :scared:

[A6S]

That was my thought too. A degree of mechanical courage needed! :scared:

If it was a choice of broken gearbox and wall/oncoming traffic i would choose gearbox 😉
I think when people(including me) are in these situations they don't think that logically, it's blind panic and shifting into reverse is the last thing on your mind. Yanking handbrake however is still always my first option. Not as easy to release when you want to play in the snow.

[EssexGonzo]

If it was a choice of broken gearbox and wall/oncoming traffic i would choose gearbox 
I think when people(including me) are in these situations they don't think that logically, it's blind panic and shifting into reverse is the last thing on your mind. Yanking handbrake however is still always my first option. Not as easy to release when you want to play in the snow.

In such a situation, I really wouldn't fault your decision making skills! :notworthy

We keyboard warriors make these judgements from the comfort of a desk and a warm keyboard.

[A6S]

I think we rely on these electronic aids too much nowadays. Traction control, abs, esp and so on and it's a case of computer takes over. Back in the days when I learned how to drive there was nothing. Not even power steering so things like cadence braking was drummed into me. My mate just passed his test and for emergency braking he was told to slam the anchors and wait till abs kicks in, if I tried it back then it would lock up and FAIL.

[rowdy-999]

Drivers now mostly expect the car to get them out of tricky situations, as apposed to a driving style dependent upon the weather/road conditions.

[Rob69]

Like the people that drive their cars blindly into a flood and wonder why it stops once the water is halfway up the doors !!
Drivers now mostly expect the car to get them out of tricky situations, as apposed to a driving style dependent upon the weather/road conditions.

[A6S]

Like the people that drive their cars blindly into a flood and wonder why it stops once the water is halfway up the doors !!

These folk are just idiots though. Anything further than the bottom of bumper is too much.
Saying that there's a YouTube video somewhere that a Lamborghini drove through a puddle that's at the windscreen and that survived.

[diecastsink]

Putting it in reverse seems like an interesting option. Is it bad that I now want to try it?

Just if you are you brave enough to try to mix Domestos and brake fluid? I would guess that both results the same = smoke and broken things... <smileys removed>

[wildbeeste]

I think we rely on these electronic aids too much nowadays. Traction control, abs, esp and so on and it's a case of computer takes over. Back in the days when I learned how to drive there was nothing. Not even power steering so things like cadence braking was drummed into me. My mate just passed his test and for emergency braking he was told to slam the anchors and wait till abs kicks in, if I tried it back then it would lock up and FAIL.

I do not like ABS as it scares me. An (old) BMW bike with early version of ABS had the unnerving habit of kicking in under hard braking - it would disengage the braking for a long time (probably a half second) and then start braking for a millisecond then disengage again - all the time I was proceeding rapidly towards the scene of an accident (as David Coulthard would say). (i did not have an accident though) Even with the faster cycle of later versions of ABS on different marques I found the times it engaged was unnecessary and did I mention scary.
The only time I have had ABS work in a car is when testing the brakes on a quiet road or on icy lanes. In both cases I have stopped braking immediately by lifting my foot off the pedal and been able to brake using the traditional methods. If it is sheet black ice there is very little to be achieved by any form of braking. A6S is correct

On a passing note all motorbikes apparently will have ABS as standard from this year. So what do I know about things

[zollaf]

i fitted a switch to my 80 so i can turn the stupid abs off. i had a mk3 golf, brand new it was, p reg. coming upto a busy junction, slightly downhill, broken gravelly surface, on an industrial estate, used a lot by lorries, me doing about 20 mph, started to brake, nothing, abs just kicked in and i kept on rolling, off brakes, on brakes, cadence braking, no good, look right, lucky gap, go for it. and they say it saves lives.

[Phil0464]

Having followed this thread and smiled at the comments, thinking been there, still have the T shirt and the bills. We have to remember about all the electronic aids, is that they are designed to work in the ideal situations / conditions for the aids to be effective, not in all real life situations. A computer cannot see and react as a human will. Just be careful and keep the wheels turning.

[zollaf]

i do a lot of off roading, which is like driving in snow. when descending you use the gearbox, not the brakes. if you start to run away, you dab the throttle. if you hit the brakes you get into all sorts of trouble. a tyre only grips when its rotating at the right speed. no amount of electronic aids can overcome the basic rules of physics. abs is there so you don't lock a wheel, and can still steer, rather than head straight for a hedgerow.

[A6S]

Braking with and without ABS - YouTube (http://youtu.be/kQdtayz525A)
If you look at this video braking distance is shorter without abs but less controlled abs just gives the extra control so in theory you can steer away from the obstacle.

[zollaf]

the first one, no abs, the driver just locks up. i wonder how much less it would be if they used a driver that could cadence brake ?

[Bar Shaker]

The comparison has to be in conditions where grip is exceeded, so the comparison works but the less grip there is, the more the two braking distances will match.

Progressively loading up the brakes is fine on dry tarmac in any emergency situation you want to retain directional control (eg someone pulls out on you). In anything other than progressive loading, an ABS equipped car is likely to be safer. This is because the vast majority of drivers are very poor at applying anything other than 'stamp and then press even harder', when faced with someone/something about be crashed into.

In fresh snow, locking up will shorten the braking distance over any cadence, ABS or other braking technique/system.

[Phutters]

Years ago I stopped a Audi 200 quattro that was sliding down a steep hill by popping it into reverse and applying loads of throttle. I reckon that doing this on a FWD car might spin the car, but it should be fine in RWD and 4WD. Certainly worked for me and, in my case, the prospect of what lay ahead (a main road with cross traffic) was much worse than the prospect of sliding sideways into the kerb.It worked once for me as well, and in a similar downhill situation. I was heading for the back end of a parked car - not quickly, but comprehensively out of control - and the only thing left to try was putting my bus (an A6 1.8T avant quattro) into reverse and giving it a last-resort helping of beans.

It worked too, at least after a fashion - I stopped going forwards and crabbed gently sideways with the camber into a snow-filled gutter and stopped a couple of feet from what would have otherwise been an irritatingly expensive and jolly embarrassing wallop.

Cadence braking would have made bugger all difference, and certainly not enough to allow a shuffle the wheel through the hands in a smug IAM-approved kind of manoeuvre.

I'd just as soon not have to resort to that again, but as Mr Wildbore says, if it's a choice between an inelegant slither to the kerb and something involving other people and possible collateral damage, then I would.

.

[Jackblack]

My car has the 8 speed ZF auto box with flappy paddles ( no clutch) before this incident i had never tried to put it into reverse while moving forwards thinking that its not designed for that purpose and it may have caused damaged to a nearly £60 k car. I only considered the possible benefit/option of putting in reverse as a saving function after the event and thinking about what happened largely incase i ever unfortuntaely found myself in the same position again . i have no actual knowledge if this box can be put in reverse while moving forwards and I'm not going to test it to find out

From beginning of slide to impact would have been 10 secs and the resting position of my car was at approx. 45 degrees to the kerb which was the result of myself trying to steer the car round the corner while in a slide. Im now thinking that there was an outside chance that perhaps if i could have put on the power ( it has 313 ps ) i could have found grip and powered away from the kerb but simple physics and instincts tells me that i may well have infact instead increased the speed and trajectory towards the kerb and had bigger hit - i guess i will never really know - but at the time my clear instinct was not to try and power out of the slide/hit.

As for applying the handbrake its electronic and its either on or off - which is s h i t compared to being able to have manual handbrake for practising sliding which in previous years snow and ice conditions i spent al lot of time doing especially in my teens. The thing is Ive practised in every car i have ever owned for the last 20 years in the snow and ice in order to have fun and more importantly understand the nature of that particular vehicle once it reached it limit and began to slide. I did this in the days before some of my cars had ESP and also ABS and also switched the ESP off on this current Quattro purposely in last years snow before this years incident to allow me to understand the nature of my car before i had to use it in earnest.

Im glad i shared my experience as its opened up a lot of good conversation and the small amount of negative input has largely been minimal and of negligent use for debate or advancement.
Bottom line repair bill £12.5 k and two weeks work. Thank god for car insurance :-) and thank god no one was hurt !!


It worked once for me as well, and in a similar downhill situation. I was heading for the back end of a parked car - not quickly, but comprehensively out of control - and the only thing left to try was putting my bus (an A6 1.8T avant quattro) into reverse and giving it a last-resort helping of beans.

It worked too, at least after a fashion - I stopped going forwards and crabbed gently sideways with the camber into a snow-filled gutter and stopped a couple of feet from what would have otherwise been an irritatingly expensive and jolly embarrassing wallop.

Cadence braking would have made bugger all difference, and certainly not enough to allow a shuffle the wheel through the hands in a smug IAM-approved kind of manoeuvre.

I'd just as soon not have to resort to that again, but as Mr Wildbore says, if it's a choice between an inelegant slither to the kerb and something involving other people and possible collateral damage, then I would.

.

[Phutters]

My car has the 8 speed ZF auto box with flappy paddles...I'm afraid the A6 in which I performed this remarkable feat wasn't quite as swanky as your car in that it had a rather quaint five-speed manual gearbox, so I guess that given the low speed and lack of grip involved it was probably a relatively safe bet that it wouldn't destroy itself when I let the clutch out.

I certainly wasn't hoping for (or expecting) the car to suddenly take off backwards at an immense speed - what I was after was a slowing down of the rate of forward progress, mainly to avoid a lot of palaver and a large bill.

I'd definitely be leery about doing it in a complicated automatic, though banging an automatic into reverse when going forwards at a great rate of knots (and the other way round) seems to be an essential part of every movie featuring a police chase made since the 1950s.

.

[Chesterfield313]

My car has the 8 speed ZF auto box with flappy paddles ( no clutch) before this incident i had never tried to put it into reverse while moving forwards thinking that its not designed for that purpose and it may have caused damaged to a nearly £60 k car. I only considered the possible benefit/option of putting in reverse as a saving function after the event and thinking about what happened largely incase i ever unfortuntaely found myself in the same position again . i have no actual knowledge if this box can be put in reverse while moving forwards and I'm not going to test it to find out

From beginning of slide to impact would have been 10 secs and the resting position of my car was at approx. 45 degrees to the kerb which was the result of myself trying to steer the car round the corner while in a slide. Im now thinking that there was an outside chance that perhaps if i could have put on the power ( it has 313 ps ) i could have found grip and powered away from the kerb but simple physics and instincts tells me that i may well have infact instead increased the speed and trajectory towards the kerb and had bigger hit - i guess i will never really know - but at the time my clear instinct was not to try and power out of the slide/hit.

As for applying the handbrake its electronic and its either on or off - which is s h i t compared to being able to have manual handbrake for practising sliding which in previous years snow and ice conditions i spent al lot of time doing especially in my teens. The thing is Ive practised in every car i have ever owned for the last 20 years in the snow and ice in order to have fun and more importantly understand the nature of that particular vehicle once it reached it limit and began to slide. I did this in the days before some of my cars had ESP and also ABS and also switched the ESP off on this current Quattro purposely in last years snow before this years incident to allow me to understand the nature of my car before i had to use it in earnest.

Im glad i shared my experience as its opened up a lot of good conversation and the small amount of negative input has largely been minimal and of negligent use for debate or advancement.
Bottom line repair bill £12.5 k and two weeks work. Thank god for car insurance :-) and thank god no one was hurt !!

I would have tried it anyway, done it before in another ZF automatic, only the 6 speed though, and it didn't cause a problem. If you have your brakes locked up the car doesn't know it is going forwards, it can't sense the slide, and entering reverse shouldn't cause a problem, then hit the accelerator before the wheels start rolling forward again.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and most wouldn't even think about it. I only did when I was in a slow slide with a bit more time to think.

[Splash]

I've mentally tortured myself with this dilemma over the years (since I've had automatics and latterly an S-tronic). I've often thought that declutching or shifting to "N" might have some advantages assuming you had sufficient time to think rationally and steer simultaneously. It depends on space and time (not in a Quantum physics way), but I once had a major slide in the snow on an empty dual carriageway that dropped down to a roundabout. I had several seconds to will the car which was coming round the roundabout, to get a move on. Fortunately it did and I stopped, but 200 miles further on the same night I saw an X5 do a 360 on the motorway in front of me - and get away with it. It focused me absolutely for the next 100 miles.

Of course when space is not an issue a spot of quattro power rarely harms. ;)

[reggie59]

That was my thought too. A degree of mechanical courage needed! :scared:

If the car is on snow no grip .. there is no risk to gearbox to be it in reverse and boot it. What you will achieve is like breaking with no abs which is more effective on snow so it can save the situation.

[wildbore]

The ZF 8-speed can be shifted from drive into reverse at up to approx. 4mph. Don't worry about that specific value, though, because the gear shifter as a genuine, mechanical shifter of gears disappeared years ago, and what we have now is a gear programme selector. If you ask for reverse via the selector and the gearbox ECU determines that the 'box is operating at too high a forward speed (which may not be the same as the speed at which your car is travelling, the ABS may be holding the wheels at a much lower speed than the vehicle speed) then it simply won't engage reverse. So there is no possibility of damaging the gearbox if you decide to throw it into reverse whilst travelling forwards.

I think that there is no brake pedal interlock between forward and reverse on the Audi (there certainly isn't on some ZF implementations) if you are moving at very low speeds and make the change swiftly; it feels that way when I am maneuvering the car on the drive, anyway (I have never specifically checked). This absence of a brake pedal interlock (as opposed to the selector lever button interlock) is usually there to allow you to gently rock the car backwards and forwards to assist in freeing the car if it becomes stuck in mud, for example; if you had to use the brake pedal to bring the vehicle to a stop before changing direction you would not be able to rock the vehicle. There may be a time-based interlock that kicks in if you don't move swiftly from forward to reverse quickly enough (there almost certainly will be); as I said, I haven't checked on the Audi.

[MarkTM]

On Tuesday it was minus 6 here and a C7 estate was in front of me at a roundabout, we took it at at the same speed and he slid but just recovered on the exit. On winter tyres I had no problems whatsoever.

Am guessing less than 5% of drivers have winter rubber?

[Splash]

Thanks for the explanation wildbore. Any ideas about the way s-tronic works and whether it has similar logic and flexibility in similar circumstances?

[noscream]

Well approached my house today thats sits on a hill. Started from top of the hill and was driving 5-10 mph touched the breaks at the very top of the hill and the car began to slide the full length of the hill ( approx 50 m) all the way down to the bottom of the hill sliding across street and bang the drivers front wheel hit a kerb deploying both front airbags and snapping the wishbone.
Hello insurers what a bummer luckily no one injured but so much for quarto and antilock brakes -mmm.

Oh luckily missed an electrical junction box by inches but at the time when the airbags deployed and never having seen this before the smoke released by the airbag deployment led me to believe the car was electrically arcing or something like that.

Car wouldn't start after the airbag deployment which I've since found out is normal but in my instance left the car in a dangerous position where i couldnt move it away from sitting across the street and in the line of the oncoming traffic in heavy snow for 2 hrs until a tow truck arrived and moved the car.

Also appear my pop out MMI screen is bust as i suspect the passengers airbag when it deployed whacked the screen and goosed its hinges. Its kinds floppy and loose now.

I believe the fact the wishbone snapped is a good thing and means there is a lot less likely a chance of the car being structurally bent. I know the A6 estate is a nearly a full 2 tonnes so the hit on that single point of the wheel would have been massive + the wheel is beyond the repair. I estimate i hit kerb at 25 - 30 mph.

Im estimating an £8k insurance claim.


Firstly sorry to hear it, it is heart stopping when it happens.

I live in on a big hill too and a few years ago 4 cars did the same one morning and the bottom of the road looked like a broken carpark.
Quattro will never save you on snow if your tyres can not grip the surface, the key to snow is winter tyres & quattro....

I put mine on in November and off in April (UK), when it snows, I'm one of very few cars that can get up & down my hill and I do it very slowly going down & steadily going up. The winter tyres & quattro gives you the drive & grip to do things other cars can not.... but I have seen 2 wheel drive BMW's out in snow with winters on and that basically says 80% is all about the grip.

Hope you get it sorted £8k sounds a little optimistic for front valence, suspension, wheel , air bags ,MMI..... I bet labour alone would be £2 - £3k. got to remember the wheel is driven which means drive system too....

[wildbore]

Thanks for the explanation wildbore. Any ideas about the way s-tronic works and whether it has similar logic and flexibility in similar circumstances?
I am afraid the company I work for doesn't fit those so I know nothing about them. However, I cannot imagine that the basics would not be the same. The S-tronic will have an ECU and the paddles / selector will merely request a gearbox programme, the ECU will determine whether it is selected or not, so I would expect similar behaviour to the ZF.

I have just checked the Owner's Manual for the A6/S6, and the automatic gearbox text doesn't differentiate between the ZF and the S-tronic operation so I think this confirms that both 'boxes will behave the same. I also saw that Audi talk about rocking the vehicle to free it from mud by shifting from R to D, so I think that pretty much confirms you are OK to put it in reverse whilst moving forwards.

[Bash D Bishop]

These two videos are worth viewing and show why a 4WD is not much more use than a 2WD in snow if on summer tyres.

Winter Tyres or 4x4: which is best? - Auto Express - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA)

Winter Tyres v Summer Tyres: the Truth! - Auto Express - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI)

I have winter wheel/tyre combos for my Allroad and my wife's Kuga. We live in a rural area that can suffer from snow. Add to that driving to Scottish ski resorts with my son for race training and they are a wise investment. I got mine secondhand from Reifenprofi and they were an absolute bargain at c.£900 for immaculate wheels with 7mm tread. Prior to my Allroad I owned a Disco 3. I was living in Poole at the time and we had a dump of snow. I had towed a neighbour out of a difficult spot and then headed back down the hill to go home. As I went down I realised I was a passenger in a 2.7 tonne sledge. There was sheet ice under the snow and I had zero grip. There were parked cars either side of the road and I began to see a very large insurance claim. To this day I still have no idea how I managed to stop without hitting anything.