Golf 150 GTTDI engine issues

[med roberts]

Hi Guys,
A couple of questions, firstly I have combustion gases pressurizing my coolant. I have confirmed this with a combustion gas detector. The car builds pressure in coolant tank very quickly , but it does not show the engine overheating on temp gauge when driven and has never done (needle just sits @ 90 degrees as always). I have removed the cylinder head today, expecting to see a crack in cyl head or head gasket issue:confused::confused: Unfortunetly nothing to be seen, also checked head for distortion both ways using a straight edge but head is not warped (backing up the fact that the engine has not been overheated. Water pump changed 30,0000 miles ago with vw part. Any thoughts :1zhelp::1zhelp::1zhelp: Second issue 1500 miles ago fitted cam, hyd tappets, cam bearings etc, but to my horror upon removing head for first issue the new cam and three hydraulic tappets are showing signs of wear already:zx11::zx11:. The cam kit was bought from e-bay :Blush2::Blush2:, so I am not sure of the quality ? Has anybody seen wear on new cam kit so quickly as this. The cam bearings, cam lobes were lubed with supplied lubricant and torqued correctly etc ..(just toad, I am an agri-engineer) . Engine oil/filter were also replaced and engine cranked, on first start, to primethe top-end. Can somebody help as I DON'T know which way to go next and feel Iam losing the battle !!!!!!!!!!! Just seems to be costing me a fortune in parts and no better off.. :aargh4::aargh4: Cheers, med

[Crasher]

No, you cannot see the blow through on a PD TDI MLS gasket. You cannot reface a PD head. Is the cam cast iron or tool steel? What oil are you using?

[jimmybond1]

i think its right.
the gasket blown between the layers.
i seperate them to look inside each layer.
as for the cam kit you bought.
theres no easy way to say this.
the ebay ones are chinese carp.
there made with monkey metal.
these parts need to sty geniune.
you laugh but i get this agro all the time with milner parts for 4x4 stuff.
there cheap and you get cheap.
i actually got banned from the pocuk site for stating this.
w.t.f!

[med roberts]

Crasher/jimmybond1 , I have just been looking at the cam and comparing to the original VW, looks the same material and when touched it with a file seems to be the same. So not 100% sure if original would have been cast/hardend steel ? I cannot see a blow between the layers of the gasket. The big question is the cylinder head cracked internaly or is the gasket to blame !!! What kind of money would be a VW camkit and also headgasket (2 hole) bolts ect..... Would I be better getting used complete cylinder head with cam ? The only downside is NOT knowing its history. Could you guys please advise me as you have a lot more experience with the ARL engine.
A big thankyou in advance for your help and knowledge. Med.

[Crasher]

All of the PD 4cyl 8v cylinder heads I can think of are identical, part number 03G 103 351 C and currently £1335.98 from VW, the camshaft is the same on almost all 8v's but genuine cams are insanely expensive as £607.75. It is unlikely to be the head unless it has been skimmed in the past, it is not permissible to skim a PD head as this removes the HIP surface coating which is extremely hard to get re-done and a skimmed but un-retreated head will start weeping again with a year or so. Almost all second hand PD heads are in a bad way and often the scraper won't separate a block and head unless the block is wrecked which does not bode well for the head. When I get a problem PD head, I buy an AMC or KS aftermarket casting BUT the ones we do are getting fewer each year as sick PD's get scrapped or sold on for bodging. Building up a new PD head, as you can imagine, costs a lot to do properly. A VW exchange cylinder head comes complete with cam and valves except for the injectors and is £1450.62 BUT these are exchange units and personally I had a bit of a nasty experience with one of these years ago BUT that problem was with the injectors included in the head (which was £2500 back then) and they don't do that anyone. Ever since I have only worked with brand new PD heads either genuine or aftermarket.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AMC%20PD%20head_zpsckm6rbwv.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/AMC%20PD%20head_zpsckm6rbwv.jpg.html)

[med roberts]

Crasher, OMG car value is only £1000 to £1500 !!!! The only realistic way forward is a cam kit (aftermarket) that you are happy with. And hope there isn't a crack in the head, and that the issue is with the gasket. How much for a recommended cam kit and genuine head gasket (2 hole) Once again thankyou for your help!!!!!!!!
Med.

[niall campbell]

I know it sounds silly, but if you had a problem, would the radiator not blow out of shape ?

Have you replaced the expansion cap ?

[Crasher]

Crasher, OMG car value is only £1000 to £1500 !!!!

You can't repair a car based on its market value, if you do that it will one day get to the point where a set of new tyres are more than the car is worth which is ludicrous and dangerous. That car cost £20K new and it is still a £20K car car BUT an old £20K car and old cars don't cost less to fix than a new one, the cost a lot more! The only aftermarket cam kit I have found so far which I am unreservedly happy with is the one by KS which is billet SAE 8620 alloy tool steel. I do this cam as a full kit with DLC coated lifters and a full bearing set for £499 inc. VAT + £10 P&P. I have also used the FAE bilet tool steel cam as an experiment but I had a peek at it a few months later and I was a little worried about the wear on it so the jury is out on that one. Whichever you use I strongly recomedn that you make sure the three main parts come from one supplier so that if one fails, the supplier can't blame the other which I can assure you they will. Something else I am beginning to consider is using a ZDDP additive in the oil when fitting new cams to cars with flat tappet lifters as I suspect the levels in Quantum Platinum are not high enough.

[med roberts]

Crasher,
What is the cost of a genuine cyl head gasket (2 hole) ? Also I just want to sell the car, but have to solve these issues. I am unable to say if the gasket or cylinder head is to blame for compression leak. Have you had any degree of sucsess in having engine builders pressure check head for cracks ? Thanks Med

[Crasher]

As I said, it would be unusual for the head to be the problem unless it has been previously skimmed and not re-treated. A genuine head gasket is £51.17 but there is nothing wrong with Reinz, Elring and Goetze. Remember that the ARL must use the head special bolts which you can also get from Elring.

[med roberts]

Crasher,All
Cylinder head has not been skimmed before, so you think it is unlikely to be an internal crack seeing it has not been overheating, just pressurising with combustion gases. I have dismantled the multi layer steel head gasket and cannot see anything. On the second issue of rapid wear after fitting aftermarket cam kit. I spoke to an VW indy today and he was of the opinion that the fault was lack of lubrication and that if I took the sump off I would find the oil pump pick-up strainer partly blocked with sludge. I told him that I had changed the oil/filter every 5 thousand mile since I bought the car @ 36,000 mile but he insisted I should do this. So after work tonight I removed the sump and suction pipe ,only to find the strainer clean as a whistle!!!!!!!!!! Could there be any other known lube issues I need to check ? Oil pressure light has never shown and turbo is fine!! Any thoughts as I am getting know were fast, Once again thanks for the advice. Med

[Crasher]

I have done more PD heads for coolant loss than I can shake a DPF at and I have never yet been able to see on the gasket where the failure point is but a new gasket (and in my case, always a new or genuine exchnage head) has always cured it. You could argue that it would be the head that fixed it but there are always more than 1 reason for changing the head, in addition to face distortion there is heavy wear of the injector bores which I worry about not re-sealing meaning I have to pull it all apart gain which I loathe doing. If it was possible to get LHIP treatment done quickly and affordable I would certainly re-fit a head with good injector bores, but if you think about the cost/hassle factor of getting a head skimmed and then HIP treated plus cleaned and pressure checked ready to rebuild, the price of a new KS or AMC head looks very tempting. Either way you need valve oil seals, cam seal, injector seals, glow plugs and cleaned/re-faced valves to get either a new or re-faced head ready to rebuild. If you are also replacing the cam, lifters and bearings....well.

[med roberts]

Crasher, ok , but what about the rapid wear of replacement cam/followers . Do you think that there could be a lube problem in your experience ? What should I be looking out for there ? You said that all PD cylinder heads/cams are the same ? Iam trying to go for secondhand cyl head assembly ? Med.

[Crasher]

Not ALL PD head are the same, MOST 8v 1.9 heads are the same bare casting but built up, they differ. The problem with cam wear in the 8v PD and on the early 2.5V6 is not the material the cams and followers are made from as some people waggle the dreaded finger of blame at, the problem is Western governments meddling with the composition of oil SPECIFICALLY to keep US car consumers happy. To satisfy the litigious hordes over the pond, the US government mandated that all catalysts had to come with a no quibble no clause guarantee for life (10 years) and the car manufacturers rightly said, that ain't going to happen with the oil used. So, it was decided to take out the Phosphorus and Zinc from the oil which are the main additives that stop two bits of high loaded metal grinding together and making a mess, therefore the cat lasts forever (ish) but your engine gets totalled. This is why all lifters now tend to be roller design, not flat tappet. So yes, it is a lube problem, get some ZDDP.

[med roberts]

Crasher ,
By a lube problem, I ment is there physically a problem with the lubrication circuit to the cam/hyd followers ? i.e blocked/restricted oil gallery in your opinion. Once again this replacement aftermarket cam kit has only covered 1500miles and has badly marked 3 hyd followers !! cam lobes also starting to show signs of wear!! As regards compression in coolant circuit, no 1 cylinder injector has been replaced recently ,could this have a bearing on the pressure in coolant !!! Med

[Crasher]

If it was a feed to each lifter, they would rattle and if it was the feed to the cam/head etc, well you would not have go to 1500 miles....

[med roberts]

Everybody, Now thinking of looking for a second hand head and cam to see if this cures both of my issues. The part no of my head is:038103373R. My question is that, my engine is the 150 ARL but so far have only seen 130's with the same part number head. I assume that the bare cylinder head is the same being the same part number, but is the camshaft/valves, followers the same and can I just change the injectors over ? I take it that the 150 ARL injectors are different spec to the 130 ? Any info gratefully received. What is the setting/clearance for the injectors ?
Thanks, Med

[Crasher]

038 103 373 R is a casting number NOT a part number and does not exist on the VW parts system. Yes the 1.9 8v PD head bare casting is the same across the board, what differentiates one from another is the injectors and the cam. The ARL (150) and ASZ (130) heads are identical when bought as a replacement part from VW, really 2000 Golf to 2013 Superb.

[med roberts]

Crasher/All,
The thread by M53494, titled "coolant leak by fuel cooler" is EXACTLY the same symptom as my coolant issue started out! Just to re clarify are the cams,followers and injectors the same/different in the PD150 and the PD130? Sorry to re ask Crasher, but I just need to be 100% before I go and buy the wrong secondhand parts!!!!! Please bare with me. Your help is proving invalueble to me.

[Crasher]

I can't back you up buying a used cam and lifters, it just goes against every grain in my soul. Not all 8v PD TDI cams are the same, but most are.

[med roberts]

Crasher,
So are the130(ASZ) and 150(ARL) cams and injectors the same part numbers from VW ? Also would it be possible that th EGR cooler could be leaking exhaust gases into the coolant system and causing pressure ?
Med.

[Crasher]

The ASZ and ARL engines are identical apart from the duty rating of the pistons. Without injectors, just about all 1.9 8v heads are identical with the cam train built up. ASZ and ARL injectors are the same.

[med roberts]

Thanks Crusher,
How do I carry out the setting/adjustment for the injectors on the camshaft ?
Regards,Med.

[Crasher]

How long you got?

[med roberts]

Just to update , pressure tested cylinder head and egr cooler and both are good. I have ordered a genuine cylinder head gasket, and Iam blaming this for pressurising my coolant system. Does anybody have the VW part no for the rear upper plastic timing belt cover(the one that goes around the camshaft) Thanks, Med.

[Crasher]

045 109 145 H £18.23, retail inc. VAT

[med roberts]

Crasher, Thanks for the part no. Just rebuilding cylinder head and installing unit injectors (new seals fitted) and the torque setting in the Haynes manual for ARL states: stage 1=12nm , stage 2= 270 degrees !!! Is this correct as it seems hellish tight considering the bolt is threaded into aluminium.
Med.

[med roberts]

Can anybody confirm this torque setting please ! Thanks in advance..........
Med.

[rowdy-999]

Can anybody confirm this torque setting please ! Thanks in advance..........
Med.

It's not a torque setting. It's set in degrees.

[zollaf]

you must use new bolts for the injectors, and the cam and rocker shaft, and yes, its 12 nm then 270 degrees. no problem if you use new bolts and no one has ever re used any bolts. big problems if you re use the bolts and strip the threads out the head. and you will need a dead accurate torque wrench to do them as not many go down that low. i bought a snap on 1/4 drive one specifically to do these tricky jobs, as well as my push bike..

[med roberts]

Ok, Oiled threads of injector clamps and torqued to 12nm and 270 degrees. Now looking at the camshaft bearings , they need to be replaced. Crasher can you tell me how much a set of VW camshaft bearings are ? I have noticed that on the original set , the bearings have different nos stamped on the rear. On measuring there thickness they appear all to be 1.50mm in thickness ! Can somebody explain why the different numbers ?
Thanks for the help, Med.

[Crasher]

Yes it is correct but a Zolly says, the critical point is new bolts, old ones will snap.

[med roberts]

Crasher, Any idea of the cost of a set of VW camshaft bearins? Why would the original VW cam bearings have different nos on the back of the shells? But when I measure them they are all 1.50mm in thickness
Thanks, Med

[Crasher]

Original VAG bearings are always daft money, the cam bearings are £86.40 a set. The originals were selected for size but replacements are generic. Fitting new bearings and a new cam in a used PD head can be quite a nerve wreaking process as often, when you bolt down the rocker arms and stretch the expensive bolts, the cam will seize up so tight that applying 100Nm to the sprocket bolt will not turn it and you have to break it free by turning the pulley. Then you find it is nice and free even on the bolt and feel puzzled only to go back to it later and find it has locked up again! In most cases I buy my bearings from Glyco, Mahle or KS as VW bearings are just too expensive, I have a BXE engine to do rod bearings on next week and I will be using KS bearings with genuine bolts and the KS bearings for a PD cam are their part number 77913600. Even then the cam may still lock up after you have stretched £96.10 of bolts so you end up stripping it all down again to find out what you have done only to find, nothing! I have had this happen with both genuine cams and bearings as well as with pattern. What I do now is still use my preferred Red Line assembly lube but I keep turning the cam at each and every step, sneaking up on the torque and using the old bolts until I am happy the cam is going to keep turning. If I find the torque required goes over the 100Nm of the bolt I use the VW cam pulley holding tool to break it free. If I am not happy I will not build up with the new bolts so I take the cam out again, check the bearings (which will now be marked and shiny in areas), re lubricate and rebuild whilst still turning it. When I have pulled the cam back out because of this, I have found the bearings to be heavily bruised and shiny in all sorts of odd points and I think that PD heads warp their cam bores as this never happens when I use a brand new head. Obviously when turning the cam you need to make sure all the pistons are at middle dead centre.

[M53494]

As previously mentioned in this thread, I'd posted about coolant pressurisation and leaking off the chassis member down by the fuel cooler.

Ive had the head and injectors sent away and overhauled. The cam and lifters were also found to be worn, so a new cam kit has also been fitted after only 49000 miles since the last one....which was a full replacement of rockers etc, etc, etc - seems to have made bugger all difference doing that!


The injectors/cam/head have all been fitted with new bolts and injectors with new seal kits. The head was ground because I didnt know they shouldnt be!


All is working fine, no further pressurisation issues, HOWEVER -My MPG is quite a bit lower than it was! I was averaging 50.1 MPG, but its now down to 44.3!


Ive done a bit of internet trawling to see if I can find anything. The 'push bolts' that work the injectors off the rockers were initially screwed down to stop and then set back 225 deg, but have since been adjusted to 180 deg which has made no difference to the MPG I've read about Torsion (Crank angle adjustment).....can this be adjusted on an ARL? And is there a guide as to how to do it for my mechanic? He has Vagcom, but couldnt find Torsion in the program displays.


I'm not all that mechanically minded, hence why I get a mechanic to do the job!

[Crasher]

The torsion value is in one of the initial measuring blocks. To help your cam live, use a ZDDP Zinc additive in your oil.

[M53494]

Cheers Crasher.

I'll speak to my mechanic, he couldn't find the torsion value when he looked last week.

I read your comment in this thread last night about ZDDP additive, but having a trawl on 'tinternet last night. most stuff seems to be American import. It does however seen to be something that may help the cams survival!! Anything is worth a try!

Is there any particular product you'd recommend?

I'm not sure if STP diesel oil additive contains ZDDP....

Kev :-)

[Crasher]

It is a developing idea and something I picked up from my obsession with American muscle cars that I have six subscriptions for such as Super Chevy. For those using flat tappet cams there have been awful wear problems with modern catalyst suitable oil as the wear additives have been taken out because they can contaminate the cat and over there cats have to be covered by the manufacturer for 11 years so in order to extend their life, they have made the engines wear faster. It is why just about everything now uses roller tappets. I am sure there is some logic in there somewhere but often logic takes a back seat when it comes to exhaust emissions. It's like the EU obsession with getting cats onto cars from the late 80's so that nasty chemicals were turned into nice harmless Co2 (cats actually cause an increase in overall Co2), and then it was discovered that Co2 was causing global warming-doh! :rolleyes: