Allroad 2.5 2005, drop in economy, flat performance, longer cranking on cold start

[A. Waterfield]

FIXED : low pressure vein pump in the front of the fuel injection pump had started to fail, new pump body was fitted by Diesel Bob tuning, it requires a new pump ECU to calibrate to the new body. the total cost of the job £850+Vat (dec 2014 prices) excluding removing and refitting etc.

Having my 2005 allroad 2.5tdi V6 tiptronic for 2 months and 5,000 miles been perfect but now its all just not quite right. looked on the forums for various aspects but maybe you'll have a better idea than me. bought at 59k miles and now at 64k cam belt changed at 32K buy specialist.

It has seemed to be somewhat flatter accelerating than usual, mpg has dropped of by 2-3mpg (34.2 ave over 4500miles down to 31-32) and when cold it starting to take longer to fire. also i swear the oil temp is a little higher, usually reads just before 90deg now just over. maybe slightly noisier below 3k.

under the bonnet i noticed a small boost leak where front aluminum cross pipe enters left intake manifold. this has been stripped and re-sealed. no change.

also EGR valve has sooting around its top casing vents...

VNT movement looks fine. EGR Valve vacuum is present and when removed you hear the turbo spool a little and stops when re-applied, so seems to operate as i would expect?
no clogging in pipe work very clean really.

I have a basic plug in code reader/data display. no codes present (not vagcom i know) boost pressure static 105kpa highest reading approx 3k at 240kpa (18psi?)
timing at idle -2.5BTDC and highest read +3.0BTDC flat out over 3k. can the injector timing run out if the belts stretch a little? o

any pointers appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.
Alex

[A. Waterfield]

been out this morning, whilst not fully warmed up the performance is better than when warm. -0.5btdc at idle and +16btdc at full throttle 3k+.

[A. Waterfield]

More research suggests the egr soot marks are quiet common and not untoward. cant help but think the ECU is retarding the timing when warm.

[bluezie]

More research suggests the egr soot marks are quiet common and not untoward. cant help but think the ECU is retarding the timing when warm.

Every EGR I've seen on the V6 has a bit of soot on it, but not a problem.
Can your diagnostic kit read the measuring blocks, and do live data logging?
You need to check the fuel, coolant and intake air temperatures, throttle position sender, requested vs actual MAF, requested vs actual boost, torque limiters etc.. Also check operation of EGR in output tests, and observe change in MAF within correct limits, check operation of N75 / VNT mechanism.

[ametlib]

Looks like yours is acting up exactly like mine. Good luck and please post back if you find something

[A. Waterfield]

seems to be a common ailment, with many ive looked at in forums not finding the answer. we can assume it will be expensive. It is due to go to audi for service and trans oil swap this thursday, so may ask for a diagnostic printout, or bite the bullet and get Vag-com myself, as I do belive this is going to drag on and access to live data be paramount...

in my mind either ECU fault, or VP44 fault.

As the boost pressures go up in line with how it was prior to this issue i think the boost circuit/turbo can be discounted. it deffinately changes with the oil getting up to temperature. no noticable link to water temp.

As the car is so low mileage my mind does not believe VP44 pump failure can be an option?

ultimately untill I can get hard data, all my bable above is conjecture..

[ametlib]

I have changed both the ECU and the VP 44 ( and everything else for that sake ;) ) I'll keep my fingers crossed for you not having the same fault as me, and the only help I can offer is really to wish you good luck ..

BTW I recognize the the longer cranking time when cold and also the higher oil temp, another strange sympthom is some plinky funny noises from the engines( cars ) right side at idle and only when the engine is hot

[A. Waterfield]

BTW I recognize the the longer cranking time when cold and also the higher oil temp, another strange sympthom is some plinky funny noises from the engines( cars ) right side at idle and only when the engine is hot

sounds very similar.

what parts have you replaced?

[ametlib]

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/images/styles/GamerRed/buttons/firstnew.png (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?138424-2-5-tdi-AKE-running-rough-when-warm&goto=newpost) 2,5 tdi AKE running rough when warm. (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?138424-2-5-tdi-AKE-running-rough-when-warm) If you have some time to kill you'll find it here. If not the answer will be- everything you can possibly think of regarding this kind of fault, I.P, ECU, Camshafts+ rockers+pushers, all of the belts, rollers and tentioners, turbo,egr valve, MAF, Map sensor, Engine speed sensor, N75+ all of the small rubber pipes, Injectors, ASO ( just in case I forgot something ;))Both heads been off and the best part- according to VCDS this engine is running like a dream ! Pick whatever graph you wish and actual is following requested like a shadow ??!!
So- as before, good luck

[A. Waterfield]

and today - its fine. mpg returning power returning started straight away....... hmmm for how long I wonder...

[ametlib]

Well, now's your chanse ! Hook up VCDS immidiatly and check everything you can think of !!! And write down the numbers ! especially COI and how much the ECU is running the advance solenoid, hot engine at idle, IQ at idle, cyl balance ( MB 13 & 14) ASO..
Mine has also "switced) into "running fine" mode several times , but eigter wifey has been driving or I've not made it all the way home ( to my VCDS) before going back to "sluggish" mode.
If you can't get hold of VCDS, at least check the timing ( idle and at revs)

[bagpipingandy]

Check the drive belt pulley for the fuel injection pump is not loose on the camshaft or check fuel injection pump belt tension, my bolts loosened on the cam shaft and the slots in the pulley making cold starting a few more turns in the morning, it will throw the timing out, but mine still run ok for 3-4 weeks like that with only cold start symptoms were obvious, thats until it fell off compeltely and then no start!!

regards

Andy

[A. Waterfield]

new maf new battery and new front pipe gaskets as egr gasket was blowing a little.

Battery has helped starting - when 0 deg c lumpy starting so going to check glow plugs next....

MAF and gaskets have made no difference, still sluggish and struggling to get 32mpg on a steady 75mph 100mile run

now It felt like it was over boosting and being reigned in by the ecu. so I have broken the factory seal on the actuator nut and wound it in first (no change still poor and slow) a couple of turns first a few more after up to 4 turns still bad probably a little worse.

going back to the start position wound it out making it longer and behold some performance. so im up to 3 turns out at the moment and its pretty reasonable quite fast most of the time with some sluggish tendencies which I hope is the Actuator playing up as i suspect its lost its integrity. At the moment up to 36mpg on the same route same speed etc. best had so far in the last 6000 mile was 34.3mpg.

going to get a new Garrett actuator and see if this is a final cure. so if you are suffering sluggish performance maybe worth winding out the vnt actuator arm - lengthening the arm easy to do with 10mm spanner and some long nose pliers. when its running sweet the engine is more diesel rattly (more advance?) than when going slow its noticeably quieter. also it doesn't sound half as boosty (if that's a word) and i wonder if that's why the inlet gaskets were leaking...

Andycheers fore that info on the cam adjuster, ill have a look when i get a minute....

[ametlib]

Are your engine changing between running fine and running sluggish ?

[A. Waterfield]

Are your engine changing between running fine and running sluggish ?
can you write your question another way? do you mean has the engine been repaired before running poorly? no work had been done to the car other than service items and a new MAF in 2009. all original..

[ametlib]

Sorry, what I wonder is; Does your car switch/ alternate between running fine and running sluggish ? Mine has by several occations gone from running sluggish to running fine from one second to another, like with a switch

[A. Waterfield]

yes just like that. it can change in a second but usually lasts for a while before actuator adjustment sluggish was the normal drive, with fast and good mpg occasionally. at the moment with longer rod length its now fast and good mpg almost all the time with the occasional sluggish moment.. which is still better than before. I think there must be internal play in the actuator. it moves smoothly, holds vacuum etc. but maybe the diaphragm has compressed/stretched?

[ametlib]

It might be the VNT actuator or it might not, I think not. My guess is that lenghtening the rod is only camuflaging the real fault...
Would the lenght of the act. rod make it harder to start when cold ? No,definitly no, when starting the actuator is not activated. Would the lenght of the act. arm make give the engine a harsh idle when hot ? No, at idle the act. arm rest agains the stop screw,
doesn't matter how long the rod connected to the arm is..
If there was a change in the diaphragm, woudn't the ECU pick that up from the MAP sensor and simply adjust it by the N75 ?...
Am pretty convinced we have the same fault, and I hope you forgive me for taking a shortcut when assuming your engine are louder at idle when running sluggish ?;) Your engine are from another generation than mine and when mine is running pre-injection
only during warm up, yours run pre-inj. all the time.( wich makes the engine a lot quiter)
So, sure I'm not that yours are running louder at idle/ low rews, but I guess so.
Compared to me you have the great advantage to actually have a car that runs fine or sluggish within the same day, so as before my advice is this: Read Measuring Blocks when the car is running fine AND when it's running sluggish.
Especially read The nr. of the cold start valve/ advance solenoid at idle.
Read the timing at idle and at rews, IQ at idle, cylinder imbalances ( mb 13 & 14) and write down the numbers.

[A. Waterfield]

My idle is fine no coarseness or unusual behaviour.

It it is true that all your symptoms are not related to the boost levels but if you have multiple issues then this would maybe give an insight into what's happening. I am also aware it maybe masking something else but again if tweaking the setup yields positive results then there is more information to digest. Also I do believe the n75 can only moderate a stable actuator so if it has excess travel/flex/internal damage then it would be going haywire(i guess you can see duty cycles on vag com) If I had the money to invest in vagcom I could measure it all day and give reems of data.

I do hope collectively we can solve these issues they are a fantastic car.

[ametlib]

My idle is fine no coarseness or unusual behaviour.

It it is true that all your symptoms are not related to the boost levels but if you have multiple issues then this would maybe give an insight into what's happening. I am also aware it maybe masking something else but again if tweaking the setup yields positive results then there is more information to digest. Also I do believe the n75 can only moderate a stable actuator so if it has excess travel/flex/internal damage then it would be going haywire(i guess you can see duty cycles on vag com) If I had the money to invest in vagcom I could measure it all day and give reems of data.

I do hope collectively we can solve these issues they are a fantastic car.

Yes let,s hope so.
When a new turbo leaves Garret, the VNT actuater are flow tested and adjusted for exactly the turbo it's placed on, hence the yellow paint markes. Let me be perfectly honest with you, there is no way a new actuator gonna cure your engine!"
If that was the solution, the internet would have been full of "changing non leaking actuator threads" wich it is not.
As long as your engine have periods it runs good, its still possible to find this fault by comparing data from running sluggish with data from running fine . However ( now I'm assuming that we have the same fault) if your engine, like mine,decide to permanently
run sluggish .............. And don't expect you can take it to the Audi dealer and have them find this fault, because they won't.....
So far you've changed the battery, the MAF( silver colored Hitachi MAF that is,as good as never anything wrong with them) and now the VNT actuater... Hmm- makes me wonder if Vagcom maybe had been a better investment ?

[bluezie]

To diagnose a fault like this you really do need kit capable of reading the measuring blocks and doing live data logging. Fault codes are only the start of diagnosis, and only show when something is very wrong. Otherwise it's blind guessing which can lead to spending a fortune replacing perfectly good parts until the fault may or may not be found. Things like the timing, timing advance and retard mechanism, MAP, MAF, EGR, N75, turbo actuator, fuel temp, coolant temp, intake temp, barometric pressure, requested vs actual boost etc etc etc can all be checked and eliminated very easily. Luckily your car has this fault intermitently, so comparing data should point at the fault.

[bluezie]

Ps, +1 as said above, if the turbo 'needs' adjusting, it's either clogged or worn out, or masking a different fault.

[A. Waterfield]

The maf can be sold on as it has proven the old one to be good and I am yet to purchase an actuator. so my expenses maybe -£30 ? Vag com is £265+. Which I do not have at the moment. I can see some live data with my scanner boost, timing -/+ btdc etc.

As id like to note through searching various forums had seen posts regards faulty actuators that were not leaking and passing vcds tests hence why I'm looking at this. Also I have had previous experience of my last car a 3008 1.6hdi becoming slow and poor on fuel, after replacing the turbo and vnt mechanism it was no better only code it had was glow
plug circuit. After adjusting the vnt arm it was like new back to existing performance and mpg. Interestingly cleared the fault code.

So please don't think I'm acting on blind as we all have previous experience.

Can anyone think as to why if the actuator is sound that backing off the vnt would increase performance and mpg dramatically?
do these engines have knock sensors/equivalent?
I we do have the same fault then in theory all the components you have changed could be discarded. So thinking outside the box is a necessity?

also

what is the standard boost pressure for the 2.5 180hp motor?

[A. Waterfield]

Ps, +1 as said above, if the turbo 'needs' adjusting, it's either clogged or worn out, or masking a different fault.

thanks bluezie,
Clogged - maybe not take it off yet.
Wear wise the bearings have no play at all so I don't believe it to be that

If it were clogged it would over boost and not move freely? It is modulating boost and moves smoothly. So if the adjustment is masking another issue what would backing off the vnt change? Boost appeared stable from rough to smooth (my equipment shows values every half second.

My my current boost level is circa 14psi off the top off my head and was 18psi before moving arm
readings were in kpa 245 before 210 at the minute Regarding boost levels it builds in earnest from 1500 rpm and is smooth reducing slightly above 3000 rpm. Any of that seem abnormal to you guys?

[adamss24]

What you're doing when adjusting/shortening the actuator arm is altering the boost response so the turbo is more likely to "spike". The turbo will tolerate the boost spikes for a while as long as they are not sustained however i would check and replace the fuel filter and N75 solenoid. Also fuel grade will do exactly the symptoms you describe, poorer quality will yield poorer performance as the ECU will alter the timing to suit... It's common procedure to blend biodiesel at pump stations so the mpg is lower. Fill at BP or Shell and make it consistent over a few tanks then report back...

[ametlib]

The maf can be sold on as it has proven the old one to be good and I am yet to purchase an actuator. so my expenses maybe -£30 ? Vag com is £265+. Which I do not have at the moment. I can see some live data with my scanner boost, timing -/+ btdc etc.

As id like to note through searching various forums had seen posts regards faulty actuators that were not leaking and passing vcds tests hence why I'm looking at this. Also I have had previous experience of my last car a 3008 1.6hdi becoming slow and poor on fuel, after replacing the turbo and vnt mechanism it was no better only code it had was glow
plug circuit. After adjusting the vnt arm it was like new back to existing performance and mpg. Interestingly cleared the fault code.

So please don't think I'm acting on blind as we all have previous experience.

Can anyone think as to why if the actuator is sound that backing off the vnt would increase performance and mpg dramatically?
do these engines have knock sensors/equivalent?
I we do have the same fault then in theory all the components you have changed could be discarded. So thinking outside the box is a necessity?

also

what is the standard boost pressure for the 2.5 180hp motor?

I've also tried to adjust the arm, but only to shorten it with the result the car performed even worse .
It can look like the engine don't like to be choked by the turbo vanes and perform better with a more open exhaust, even if the boost suffers from it ??.. Can that maybe point against some kind of blockage in the exhaust system and
especially thinking about the area between the cyl. heads and the turbo ??
Standard boost is around 2350 mbar

[ametlib]

What you're doing when adjusting/shortening the actuator arm is altering the boost response so the turbo is more likely to "spike". The turbo will tolerate the boost spikes for a while as long as they are not sustained however i would check and replace the fuel filter and N75 solenoid. Also fuel grade will do exactly the symptoms you describe, poorer quality will yield poorer performance as the ECU will alter the timing to suit... It's common procedure to blend biodiesel at pump stations so the mpg is lower. Fill at BP or Shell and make it consistent over a few tanks then report back...

I,ve tried all brands of fuel and you're right about Shell, takes away 5 % of the sluggishness.......

[A. Waterfield]

ok so on my return journey I logged 225kpa (100kpa/1000mbar of which is atmospheric) so currently running 2250mbar - (18psi).

before I had made any adjustments to reduce pressure I was reading 255kpa 2550mbar (22psi). which would be clearly above spec. so why the overboost? clogged vanes could do this but surely it would be peaking as the N75 would fail to control it. as it is set at the moment this on full throttle 5th gear 1900-3000 rpm is very stable at 220-225kpa. in varying situations sudden hard accelleration/kickdown etc never did it exceed 225kpa. IMO It felt like i had wound the actuator a little too long last time (before the last 1000mile test) so this correlates with my current setup being a little too low. I have not had a moment to put it back up a turn and plus it has been on a bit of a test mpg wise.

[A. Waterfield]

I,ve tried all brands of fuel and you're right about Shell, takes away 5 % of the sluggishness.......

Interesting. every car/van I have ever owned fuel brand has had very little impact, might try shell once this round of testing is passed.

[A. Waterfield]

I've also tried to adjust the arm, but only to shorten it with the result the car performed even worse .
It can look like the engine don't like to be choked by the turbo vanes and perform better with a more open exhaust, even if the boost suffers from it ??.. Can that maybe point against some kind of blockage in the exhaust system and
especially thinking about the area between the cyl. heads and the turbo ??
Standard boost is around 2350 mbar

I had tried my car with exhaust loosened/parted at turbo outlet to see if it was a blocked catalyst, but this made no difference. this was prior to VNT adjustment.

[ametlib]

I had tried my car with exhaust loosened/parted at turbo outlet to see if it was a blocked catalyst, but this made no difference. this was prior to VNT adjustment.

Yes, we can definitly look away from the exhaust system. I've also tried with the system parted at the turbo + I've changed the exhaust after the catalysts+ the content of the catalyst was accidently exposed for the
" steel rod & hammer mod" and also later checked for remaines. So I'll say the exhaust system is ruled out.....
Another sympthom is I have no noise from the tail pipe when engine is running sluggish, when it switch to "running good mode" it sounds like it should . When you find time, could you possible check the timing at idle and rews, running sluggish and good ?

[A. Waterfield]

Another sympthom is I have no noise from the tail pipe when engine is running sluggish, when it switch to "running good mode" it sounds like it should . When you find time, could you possible check the timing at idle and rews, running sluggish and good ?

I have a OE spec system so exhaust noise is negligable. but I can understand that when the engine runs good, it sounds like it should and when bad is very mute (also noticed this with the parted manifold come to think of it.. timing at idle on my scanner is -2.5 to -3 BTDC which may make no correlation to VCDS? there is no change when good or bad to this...

Does your car soot much out ? from memory it would kick up some soot if kicked down but since it has become slow no/very little soot..

On another note I have wound in 2 turns (so still 1.5-2 turns longer than OE) it has definitely lost some performance, mpg is stable and boost is a little higher at peak 235kpa but returns to 220-225kpa from 2500 rpm onwards.

upon getting close to home, I sat as some traffic lights, and when revving the car it would rev muted till 3k then sound like it should above 3k-limiter. doing this a few times in a row, it then sounded and revved great from idle. came off the lights and it moved fast for 3-5 seconds till it returned to going sluggish again.. I think i could replicate this on demand..?

Thoughts and ideas?

[ametlib]

Very interesting !!
First, correct timing is -2+-2 degrees so yours seems to be ok. Since the timing reads the same weather the engine runs good or bad we can rule out anything belts/ tentioners stuff ( but that I knew already ;))
My car does not soot, in fact it woudn't soot even if I point my moose rifle at it ..I have a strange issue when at WOT, especially in 4th and 5th. At WOT the engine almost stalls, even if the ECU reports full boost (2350 mbar) and full IQ (45 mg/ str)
When I back of the accelrator a bit , to around 30 mg/str it will pick up and start pulling again !!???
If this issue was about lack of air, I would expect some nice black smoke under these circumstances ( 45 mg/ str is " all in" ) so I asked wifey to drive behind me and look for soot while I was keeping the pedal in the floor, and guess what, no smoke at all......
Thoughts and ideas ?
Yes, do I get this right if your engine perform worse after you shorten the rod by 2 turns ?
could be very interesting if you could have checked the timing at higher rews both when running sluggish and good ?

[A. Waterfield]

Very interesting !!
First, correct timing is -2+-2 degrees so yours seems to be ok. Since the timing reads the same weather the engine runs good or bad we can rule out anything belts/ tentioners stuff ( but that I knew already ;))
My car does not soot, in fact it woudn't soot even if I point my moose rifle at it ..I have a strange issue when at WOT, especially in 4th and 5th. At WOT the engine almost stalls, even if the ECU reports full boost (2350 mbar) and full IQ (45 mg/ str)
When I back of the accelrator a bit , to around 30 mg/str it will pick up and start pulling again !!???
If this issue was about lack of air, I would expect some nice black smoke under these circumstances ( 45 mg/ str is " all in" ) so I asked wifey to drive behind me and look for soot while I was keeping the pedal in the floor, and guess what, no smoke at all......
Thoughts and ideas ?
Yes, do I get this right if your engine perform worse after you shorten the rod by 2 turns ?
could be very interesting if you could have checked the timing at higher rews both when running sluggish and good ?

yes it was - 4 turns longer for 1000 miles, now -2 turns longer worse performance same mpg. at 0 turns its much worse and terrible mpg. if your taking in that much air and seeing 2350mbar and stalling sounds like too much air to diesel?? an iindependent boost guage could prove the map sensor is telling the truth. can you see 2350 right through the rev range? mike stops/peaks 230kpa at 2500 .

[ametlib]

No, you are definitly not acting in blind . I checked the MAP sensor by fitting an external boost gauge 2 years ago. Later that day I started my thread " 2,5 tdi AKE running rough when warm" as I realized I would have to change the I.P.
Every time I think about this issue I end up walking around in circles and always ends up with the Injection Pump or the way the ECU runs the pump...
Dont remember how high up in the rew range it boost 2350 but I can check it up.
Just for fun I'll also adjust the act. 4 turns out
It seems to me that the ECU believes it is putting in more fuel than it in reality does, and also is running the turbo and timing accordingly to this false values ???

BTW Dont know what your scanner can do, but the one thing that could clarify things a lot, is a reading of the advance solenoid/ cold start valve, engine running good and bad same conditions

[A. Waterfield]

you having checked the map sensor rules that out.... have you checked tank pump flow rate? ive been meaning to check the tank pump filter is clear.. I am looking into getting my car on a rolling road early next week (if he has time) with a very smart tuner to see if we can plug and monitor its power output etc.

if all the monitoring items of the ECU are happy that the values are correct, we must assume the problem is something that is not monitored. the milion dollar question is what.....

[ametlib]

26183261842618526186

[A. Waterfield]

^as i thought... you've been here

i have jsut spent a couple of hours reading your existing thread again, i think that the noise i hear when its going fast is what you refer as bark.. and in reading you thread the later IP shut of the pre delivery if lack of fuel supply? if this sounds right then I need to look at fuel delivery?

I do find it interesting that this issue is happening on cars with massively different mileages.

p.s my god you have put in some work

[ametlib]

You might need to look at the fuel supply yes, that was my main theory for a long time until I proved myself wrong by fitting an gauge to the pump head .... And yes, later I.P. will shut of the pre inj. if they suffer from fuel starvation, mine beeing the first
gen. AKE turns off the pre inj. when coolant temp reaches 78 C.
When I use the word "bark" I mean diesel knock, but not the worst diesel knock sound ( dong, dong ) more like hrr,hrr,hrr :biglaugh::biglaugh: ( sounds are always best explained by letters-not)
If yours have turned the pre. inj off it would have knocked.

Today I lenghten the act. rod by 4 turns --- wich resulted in a gutless engine, BUT I was'nt thrown over the steering wheel during gear changes anymore !!!?

BTW about the fuel supply, take a good look on post 435 by Sjordet in my old thread

[A. Waterfield]

Ok. Yesterday I returned my Actuator from -2.5ish to -0.5 turn longer than standard. Sprayed some EGR Cleaner in for a little de-sooting. Drove to work 100 miles 34mpg and sounding like it was choking as it used to before mods(mpg and power at 0.0 turns was 32-33 if driven even more carefully) wouldn't fire first time on the way home, pulled into layby to do the following:

I had seen a "how to setup your VNT arm" on youtube and it was clearly stated that the actuator should not touch the endstop but be a fag paper away. so I adjusted it to meet this criteria. which is endstop -1/4 turn. drove home, boost generated well and car flowed freely at set test speed 75mph achieved 37.6mpg. when asked did not once get power fade / sluggishness. boost peak at 1800rpm 236kpa past 2500rpm steady 220-225Kpa. Engine quiet and composed.

I shall continue the test in this spec for the next 2 journeys and report back.. If this has sorted it the VNT adjustment is very sensitive. If this is the correct position my rod must have shortened collapsed flexed some how internally (similar to matt2.5tdi's experience), I vividly remember when I first started to turn it longer still and seeing it still come upto the end stop - somewhere near 1.5 to 2 turns from where I Broke the factory seal.

Do I think this is fixed....probably not. An anomaly maybe. Lets see...

[A. Waterfield]

Car is a non starter. it has gotten colder -3 to 5 deg outside, cant get its self to fire with clouds of fuel when it does go (with easy start)... pump timing suspected to be the cause.

Can you get the belt covers off without going into the service position??

[ametlib]

Sorry to hear . Yes both upper belt covers can be remowed wlth a little fiddeling. If you need to take off the lower cover it can be done, but the viscouse fan have to come off first. If the viscouse fan is difficult to get out, just loosen
the screws keeping the front left ving to the front piece.... Aside from that I must admit I had a feeling there was more to it than a bad turbo actuator...

BTW will appreciate it if you find out exact what the problem is and then post back, have a feeling that it can shed some light over my little issue as well

[A. Waterfield]

Ok, so I manually adjusted pump timing without VCDS and settled on a marker about 2mm clockwise from the found position. starting was a bit better, and better still with 5 out of the 6 glow plugs replaced. so at the minute it starts fine.

I have had VCDS ross tech kit arrive and checked my timing which is perfect. good.

Now doing some logging my boost lags way behind requested boost and only overshoots requested on point of deceleration.

I now need to understand all the data available. where's best to start, can you recommend some log sets to post gents? IQ requested and IQ actual are miles off under load, MAF requested also flatlines at around 2500rpm onwards? also oil temp on vcds may read 100deg c and gauge reads 80?

thoughts and questions..

[bluezie]

The IQ is behind because the boost is low. The smoke limiter is holding the IQ back waiting for full boost.
What reading are you getting on the MAF at full throttle?
Have you checked the camshafts for wear? If the engine has more than 100K on it, there is a VERY big chance the camshafts are worn out and some followers have popped out. The offside cam cover is the easiest to get to.

[bluezie]

Worn cams and 3 missing followers at 140K using correct oil and doing 1 year / 10K oil changes for most of this mileage.

2630126302

[ametlib]

VCDS ! Now we're talking.
I can't see worn camshafts make the engine switch into " muted" So for now I would have looked for another explaination...
If your engine still switch between running good and running sluggish, let the engine idle at temperatur and check the timing AND the nr. in cold start valve/ advance solenoid in measuring blocks, do so in both conditions ( running fine and sluggish)
Are the IQ really that way off ?
Even if your right foot demands 100 mg/str. the VP44 max out at 45 mg/str .... Full boost is around 2350 mb.
If you wants to post some logs, start with boost and MAF

[A. Waterfield]

I believe that 2005 models have solid cams. i'll get the laptop in and post some graphs / data. at 90oC temp cold start valve was 100.6% or something similar. It does make some sense that the low boost would determine IQ.. I'll get some logs done over the next few days.

RE: boost and actuator settings, it has been set with a feeler gauge to 0.05mm off of end stop, as per the (VNT setting guide) and is very sluggish as it was before I turned the shaft longer. this was in an attempt to get more boost at a lower point.

I'll get some graphs......

[A. Waterfield]

26303

[A. Waterfield]

26304boost this run looks reasonable..

[ametlib]

Solid cams with roller rockers, nothing wrong with them. I mean cold start valve and timing read in MEASURING BLOCKS, in basic settings it will always show retarded phase in 100,2 %.
Also check the limiters against act IQ

[A. Waterfield]

26305

[A. Waterfield]

VCDS !
Even if your right foot demands 100 mg/str. the VP44 max out at 45 mg/str .... Full boost is around 2350 mb.
If you wants to post some logs, start with boost and MAF

ok this makes some sense - and correlates with the data i think. still getting used to the wealth of data available on VCDS. generally boost was lagging behind at 2100 if 2200 was requested, etc. trying to find the correct data log

[A. Waterfield]

26306 cold start at 100.2%

[ametlib]

OK, ok, you need to get familiar to VCDS. First check the Engine control unit for fault codes, then find a way to post graphs in larger pictures. The way I would attac this is to compare data from the ECU when engine is running sluggish with data from ECU when engine
is running fine. The question is if the ECU is responsible for or at least is aware about the engine is running sluggish? Under you'll find the different measuring blocks for the engine controller ECU

BTW I think the reason your boost readings is a bit low is that the VNT act. rod is a bit too long ?

[ametlib]

Measured value block 1. Injection pump at idling speed

1 = Engine speed
2 = Injection quantity
3 = Activation time of metering solenoid valve
4 = Coolant temperature

Measured value block 2. Warm idling specs

1 = Engine speed
2 = Accelerator pedal position
3 = Operating status
4 = Coolant temperature

Measured value block 3. EGR at idling speed

1 = Engine speed
2 = Intake air mass (specified)
3 = Intake air mass (actual)
4 = Duty cycle (activation) of exhaust gas recirculation valve N18

Measured value block 4. Injection pump

1 = Engine speed
2 = Commencement of injection (specified)
3 = Commencement of injection (actual)
4 = Duty cycle (activation) of commencement of injection valve N108

Measured value block 5. Start conditions

1 = Engine speed
2 = Injection quantity for starting (recorded from last start)
3 = Commencement of injection
4 = Coolant temperature

Measured value block 6. Switch positions

1 = Vehicle speed
2 = Brake pedal monitoring
3 = Cruise control system operating unit
4 = Operating status of cruise control system

Measured value block 7. Temperatures

1 = Fuel temperature
2 = Oil temperature
3 = Intake air temperature
4 = Coolant temperature

Measured value block 8. Injection quantity limitation

1 = Engine speed
2 = Desired injection quantity (driver input via accelerator pedal)
3 = Injection quantity limitation via engine speed (torque limitation)
4 = Injection quantity limitation based on intake air mass (avoidance of exhaust smoke)

Measured value block 9. Injection quantity limitation

1 = Desired injection quantity (driver input via accelerator pedal)
2 = Injection quantity limitation by automatic gearbox during gearshift
3 = Injection quantity determined by overrun torque limitation (MSR)
4 = Injection quantity limitation by traction control system

Measured value block 10. Air quantities

1 = Intake air mass
2 = Atmospheric pressure (ambient air pressure)
3 = Intake manifold pressure (charge pressure)
4 = Accelerator pedal position

Measured value block 11. Charge pressure control

1 = Engine speed
2 = Charge pressure (specified)
3 = Charge pressure (actual)
4 = Duty cycle (activation) of charge pressure control solenoid valve N75

Measured value block 12. Glow plug system

1 = (Ignore)
2 = Glow period (in seconds)
3 = Voltage supply at control unit
4 = Coolant temperature

Measured value block 13. Smooth idling regulation

1 = Difference between injection quantities for cylinders 3 and 2
2 = Difference between injection quantities for cylinders 1 and 2
3 = No display
4 = No display

Measured value block 14. Smooth idling regulation

1 = No display
2 = Difference between injection quantities for cylinders 6 and 2
3 = Difference between injection quantities for cylinders 4 and 2
4 = Difference between injection quantities for cylinders 5 and 2

Measured value block 15. Fuel consumption

1 = Engine speed
2 = Injection quantity (actual)
3 = Fuel consumption
4 = Desired injection quantity (driver input via accelerator pedal)

Measured value block 18. Various (only displayed on engine control units with a certain data level)

1 = Voltage supply to injection pump
2 = Voltage supply at engine control unit
3 = Signals from injection pump
4 = Evaluation of pulses from engine speed sender. The injection pump expects the pulses in specific phases, alternately inside and outside a phase

Measured value block 19. Start conditions

1 = Engine speed
2 = Start of delivery
3 = Activation time of metering solenoid valve
4 = Fuel temperature

Measured value block 20. Supplementary heater

1 = Ambient temperature
2 = Fuel consumption of supplementary heater
3 = Supplementary heater switched off due to ……?
4 = Coolant temperature

Measured value block 21. Fuel level

1 = Status of fuel level check
2 = Status of injection system
3 = Fuel pump activated
4 = Status of fuel level check

Measured value block 25. Injection pump

1 = Data level
2 = Injection pump number
3 = Software version
4 = Serial Number
5 = Production date

Measured value block 125. Drive train data bus

1 = Gearbox control unit
2 = ABS control unit
3 = Instrument cluster
4 = Airbag control unit

[A. Waterfield]

OK, ok, you need to get familiar to VCDS. First check the Engine control unit for fault codes, then find a way to post graphs in larger pictures. The way I would attac this is to compare data from the ECU when engine is running sluggish with data from ECU when engine
is running fine. The question is if the ECU is responsible for or at least is aware about the engine is running sluggish? Under you'll find the different measuring blocks for the engine controller ECU

BTW I think the reason your boost readings is a bit low is that the VNT act. rod is a bit too long ?

code scan complete - no codes

vnt rod is as oe spec now, so it feels like it holding back. it can be from one run to another for sluggish running, not had a good run yet. i will wind it in some more but then it will only press against the vnt stop.. and then do some logs with it 2 turns out for reference.....

i think its restricted exhaust housing/manifolds/cat causing lower pressure at the min...

[bluezie]

The IQ is behind because the boost is low. The smoke limiter is holding the IQ back waiting for full boost.
What reading are you getting on the MAF at full throttle?
Have you checked the camshafts for wear? If the engine has more than 100K on it, there is a VERY big chance the camshafts are worn out and some followers have popped out. The offside cam cover is the easiest to get to.

Sorry, me bad! I thought we were talking about the AKE engine - clue is in '2005' in title! So, cams probably fine.

[ametlib]

Sorry, me bad! I thought we were talking about the AKE engine - clue is in '2005' in title! So, cams probably fine.

:biglaugh: Probably my fault as we've been taking about my AKE for years, I soon believe the blo&%y car will be vwaudiforum legend !!!!!:biglaugh:

[ametlib]

code scan complete - no codes

vnt rod is as oe spec now, so it feels like it holding back. it can be from one run to another for sluggish running, not had a good run yet. i will wind it in some more but then it will only press against the vnt stop.. and then do some logs with it 2 turns out for reference.....


i think its restricted exhaust housing/manifolds/cat causing lower pressure at the min...

And I think you are right, that is especially if you leave the "cat" out ..........

[A. Waterfield]

oh dear. it is no longer starting.

i took it out today shopping, started fine drove 13miles and stopped normally. up to running temp.

30min later tried to start - nope. no f** ing chance. a little deoderant in intake started fine ran fine.
2 miles on stopped. away for 2-3 hours.

came to start again. no start. ^ procedure above and reluctant start

drove 12.99 miles home fine.

last 100 meters car stalled, would not start with a little deoderant and then holding throttle open (as it would stall immediatly) got the last 100m home.

now will not start.

No fault codes. other than it had switched off pre ignition. possibly down to my removing oil temp sensor? to get glow plugs to assist in starting berfore 13mile drive home (which made no difference)


battery on charge as it is now low. no air in the clear pipe.

car had been idling rough and chugging a bit when driving between the shops..... had no VCDS with me damn it.

I had my crap tester with me and the timing was flicking going -6deg/-1deg btdc when idle was dropping not sure if this was the cause or the car trying to adjust its self

now i cant test anything with out idle.....


pump timing position on cam checked and is where it should be so that hasnt slipped. exhaust removed to rule out backpressure from CAT back...

[ametlib]

I'm sorry to hear you're strugling.
The good news is that the more pronounced the fault is, the easier it is to find it !
I,m starting to suspect that this is all fuel related and I suggest you rig up something like I did, see the picture. Make sure it's all clean and do not take fuel through the filter but go for "direct injection"
Fill the hose from a bottle before connecting it to the can and open 1 or 2 injector pipes to get rid of the air.

BTW if your timing is right and your needlelift is still in one piece the only explaination of you reading -6 in timing is that the pump suffers bad from fuel starvation. The timing piston will only retard it to -4 !! The two last degrees means the high pressure
plungers will not go all the way to their BDC to refuel !!! I believe the ECU turnes off the pre inj. because it is having problems seeing the signal from the needlelift. By turning it off the needlelift will provide a much stronger signal.
Again- lack of fuel in the injection pump ?
26370

[A. Waterfield]

this -6 -1 did stop and timing returned to normal -2.5 at idle after a few minutes.

do you have a how to to turn off needle lift? (was within spec when tested a couple of days ago.

letting the battery charge up overnight and will re-visit it tomorrow. all left bank injectors were cracked open today and fuel was gluging out on cranking, when i opened the right bank it seemed less pulsed but it was dark so I'll repeat tomorrow...

howmuch fuel should be pulsing out i do not know.

I feel I will rig up a Direct injection set up tomorrow...

[ametlib]

When the pump is bleed and ready to go, a lot of fuel will pulse out, a little wet around the injectors does not mean it all ok.
Yes, set up direct injection and post back !

[bluezie]

I'm also thinking fuel starvation, although would expect a 'multiple cylinder missfire due to lack of fuel' fault code to be logged. Maybe the generic code reader is missing some of the codes (as they sometimes do), and VCDS needed to dig them all out?
No air in the clear pipe may be actually no fuel at all - these pipes are no longer clear, but yellow / orange in colour due to age.
Anyway, as said above, gravity feed will eliminate loads.

[A. Waterfield]

right gravity fed checked for diesel at banjo intake at pump, fuel flow from banjo so reaching pump. cracking the two top injector pipes open and turning over revealed no diesel coming out.....

the battery is not very well charged and sitting at 11.5v dropping to 8v under cranking so maybe this too low for vp44 and is causing no flow? it is a new Bosch battery, and charging overnight did nothing so i need to get another charger as it is v.old......

you would expect to see something, right?

[A. Waterfield]

volts getting to vp44 and can hear click when connector attached.

does the return to fuel filter need to be disconnected ? i only disconnected the inlet pipe.....

[ametlib]

If I understand this correct you disconnected the fuel hose at the filter and put a feed from a bottle in it ? If so the return can stay connected to the filter but this will result in you running out of fuel-fast !!
When ( or if ? ) the engine starts it will be a matter of a few 10 seconds.
Also a good idea to blind the connector at the filter and pull out fuse no. 28.
If you get no start check ECU for fault codes, anything about g-210 can turn off the Injection pump. Good luck and post pictures !

[ametlib]

right gravity fed checked for diesel at banjo intake at pump, fuel flow from banjo so reaching pump. cracking the two top injector pipes open and turning over revealed no diesel coming out.....

the battery is not very well charged and sitting at 11.5v dropping to 8v under cranking so maybe this too low for vp44 and is causing no flow? it is a new Bosch battery, and charging overnight did nothing so i need to get another charger as it is v.old......

you would expect to see something, right?

Yes, fuel should pee out of both pipes. As long as you have a reasonable crankspeed the IP 44 will fuel, its actually more a question about the signal from the engine speed sensor, but the pump will still fuel if the signal is missing

[A. Waterfield]

Yes, fuel should pee out of both pipes. As long as you have a reasonable crankspeed the IP 44 will fuel, its actually more a question about the signal from the engine speed sensor, but the pump will still fuel if the signal is missing
When cranking should vcds be able to see cranking rpm ? Mine shows 0 rpm

[ametlib]

Can't recall to ever have checked, dont know, but the pump should pee out some fuel even if the pump is disconnected or even dead as long as it,s free from air....
It will take some cranking to do the job,when it comes to bleeding ,the vp44 injection pump is one of the worst pumps ever made.........

If you suspect a duff pump you can do a quick check by disconnecting it, turn the ignition on then reconnecting the pump. If you hear a short buzzing sound coming from the pump I'll say its 99 % chance it's ok

[bluezie]

Your battery voltage is very low, needs to be 12.5-13V. A low voltage when cranking isn't going to help matters.
When you crank the engine, does the level in the feed bottle go down? As the vane lift pump inside the VP44 should be hoovering the fuel out of it, and sending most back to the tank via the return.
Is the gravity feed in one continuous drop to the pump? ie no inverted loops that could cause an air locks.
Also, have you tried undoing the return hose banjo to eliminate a blockage in the return?

[A. Waterfield]

Can't recall to ever have checked, dont know, but the pump should pee out some fuel even if the pump is disconnected or even dead as long as it,s free from air....
It will take some cranking to do the job,when it comes to bleeding ,the vp44 injection pump is one of the worst pumps ever made.........

If you suspect a duff pump you can do a quick check by disconnecting it, turn the ignition on then reconnecting the pump. If you hear a short buzzing sound coming from the pump I'll say its 99 % chance it's ok


ok so, new charger more cranking amps. truned for 20 seconds with all injector pipes removed at injectors with blue paper towel under each injector. fuel covered the paper towels, it looked like the right bank had more than the left bank (viewed from front bumper). but there was fuel, reconnected injectors and still no start.

zero fault codes. nothing.

i checked the pump and it buzzed for half a second...

[A. Waterfield]

Your battery voltage is very low, needs to be 12.5-13V. A low voltage when cranking isn't going to help matters.
When you crank the engine, does the level in the feed bottle go down? As the vane lift pump inside the VP44 should be hoovering the fuel out of it, and sending most back to the tank via the return.
Is the gravity feed in one continuous drop to the pump? ie no inverted loops that could cause an air locks.
Also, have you tried undoing the return hose banjo to eliminate a blockage in the return?

i am not sure of the quality of the battery, it is on a meaty charger overnight so will see tomorrow. its a clear hose and a straight drop so that is good. it is now returning into the same pot, which is not see through, tomorrow i'll decant some into a clear container to check flow. I did crack open the return hose banjo and got diesel trickling out/

i think maybe I should remove all the hoses/ banjos and physically put air hose then diesel through them to prove flow is ok? if the return was blocked what would happen inside the pump?

[bluezie]

If the return was blocked, the pump wouldn't prime, as it would just be compressing and releasing any air in it. I should imagine the VP44 also has a ball bearing pressure relief valve that allows fuel to return back to the intake of the vane pump in case of outlet blockage. Otherwise something would burst!

[ametlib]

ok so, new charger more cranking amps. truned for 20 seconds with all injector pipes removed at injectors with blue paper towel under each injector. fuel covered the paper towels, it looked like the right bank had more than the left bank (viewed from front bumper). but there was fuel, reconnected injectors and still no start.

zero fault codes. nothing.

i checked the pump and it buzzed for half a second...

Ok, as long as the pump runs the quantity adj.( the buzzing sound) when powered its almost 100 % for sure the electronics works. However the vp 44 is a devilish pump, and the fact its pushing fuel through the open injector pipes does
not mean it's primed and ready to run. The internal vane pump will make enough pressure to wet your blue paper even if its bone dry in the high pressure chamber.
In my experience the best way to make it start is to crack open 2 injector pipes and crank .
There is no way the pump will prime if you open all 6, because you're letting out the pressure that should fill the high pressure chamber/ move the plungers out to their BDC !!
Also an idea to check the " engine stop valve/ runaway valve/ shudder valve" ( or what ever the English word for it is ?;) ) If its sticking you are trying to burn diesel without air....
If that is ok and the engine refuses to cooperate, go for the easy start or brake cleaner, or better, I have a bottle of petrol ( for model airplanes:D ) and it starts absolutly everything with a piston inside !!!!

[A. Waterfield]

If the return was blocked, the pump wouldn't prime, as it would just be compressing and releasing any air in it. I should imagine the VP44 also has a ball bearing pressure relief valve that allows fuel to return back to the intake of the vane pump in case of outlet blockage. Otherwise something would burst!

thats what i was thinking....

[A. Waterfield]

Ok, as long as the pump runs the quantity adj.( the buzzing sound) when powered its almost 100 % for sure the electronics works. However the vp 44 is a devilish pump, and the fact its pushing fuel through the open injector pipes does
not mean it's primed and ready to run. The internal vane pump will make enough pressure to wet your blue paper even if its bone dry in the high pressure chamber.
In my experience the best way to make it start is to crack open 2 injector pipes and crank .
There is no way the pump will prime if you open all 6, because you're letting out the pressure that should fill the high pressure chamber/ move the plungers out to their BDC !!
Also an idea to check the " engine stop valve/ runaway valve/ shudder valve" ( or what ever the English word for it is ?;) ) If its sticking you are trying to burn diesel without air....
If that is ok and the engine refuses to cooperate, go for the easy start or brake cleaner, or better, I have a bottle of petrol ( for model airplanes:D ) and it starts absolutly everything with a piston inside !!!!

worried about conrod damage with using easys start etc. will try 2 open tomorrow. shudder valve has been fully open so no concerns there.

[ametlib]

Agree, but as a last resort...
I believe you have to check if the pump is pulling fuel through, at normal idle the pump flow is around 1litre/min. Assuming the crank speed to be around half of the idle gives a flow of 0,75 dl/ 10 sec.
If the flow seems ok and still no start,
I would be a bit more concerned and starting thinking about a sticking plunger in the pump...meaning the pumphead have to come off ( but you're not there yet)
So to sum up- both the cam belt and the pump belt is running ok meaning the timing also is ok.
There are no fault codes in the ECU, in addition to that the pump buzzes when powered, rules out everything electric/ electronic I guess.
So, if someone didn't steal all 6 pistons in the engine, you are left with- an obstruction in the fuel system/air in the pump or- a sticking plunger

[A. Waterfield]

So, if someone didn't steal all 6 pistons in the engine, you are left with- an obstruction in the fuel system/air in the pump or- a sticking plunger
sounds like super logic! On my way now to. Start the next phase of tests...

[A. Waterfield]

So very little diesel drawn in 20-40mm of drop on clear temporary pipe what is drawn in is seeping out the diesel heater pipe. this is over 20seconds of cranking with a good charged battery.

further investigation. I have opened and checked for diesel (filter slide valve at front of pump) diesel there flowing out. slide valve has no wear and was not stuck. Valve in outlet banjo is free and clear. bleed point under inlet/outlet pipes has diesel flow, also bleed point near egr pipe has been checked and diesel flows.

So I am assuming that one of the two inaccesable slide valves is stuck or Low Pressure LP pump piston or High pressure HP pump piston has failed... any further thoughts..

[ametlib]

There is no low pressure pump with piston , but a vane pump wich never failes in front of the pump. I believe what happen is one of the 2 plungers ( high pressure pump piston) is stuck in it,s bore, probably some small debris found it's way between the piston and
the bore.
The only way to get this running is to put some pressure on the feed line, but concidering the way the car gave up the breath I doubt that it will happen.
A better way is to take out the pump and pull the pump head off. then take out the loose plunger and knock out the other one from the inside, clean/polish and it will come back to life.
Sounds impossible?
It's actually not, I,ve opened two vp44, and it's by far the less complicated injection pump I've looked into.
Dont bother all the talk about how everything have to be extremely clean, both pumps I moleculized was full of dirt/rust/debris. Just dip the parts in diesel and put it back together.

[A. Waterfield]

ok looks like a plan. whats the procedure for IP removal. I imagine i need to get a cam lock tool, a IP lock tool... how do you release the tension in the tensioner.

I would again like to thank all of you for your assistance

[ametlib]

I can do a short write up tomorrow morning, but first I need to clairify that I take no responsibility for the outcome of this, what so ever, this is all yours.
So the job. You really don't need any timing tools to take the pump out/in.
The one thing to do right is-do not touch the nut keeping the pump belt tentioner !!! Do not loosen it, if you do so you double the job !
You need regular tools, a marker pen and a good head, I,ll take the rest tomorrow

[ametlib]

Ok, first if you have an air compressor, blow off all the dirt especially around the injector pipes and fuel hoses. Inlet crossower manifold off. Both side upper cam belt covers off. Now mark the pump pulley against the pump house ( pic 1+2)
Then loosen the 4- 6 mm allen key screws keeping the pump belt pulley to the cars left side cam belt pulley( use counterhold). Next see pic.3, in the middle of the picture there is a black "finger" or "pin" pointing upwards. Behind that pin there is another pin.
With a flat screwdriver push the rear pin to the left ( when standing in front of the car) This will release the tention and you can pull the pump belt pulley off the cam belt pulley.
Now take off the balancer in front of the pump (4 allen key 6mm screws) not necessary but makes it easier to
put things back later.
Next take off the 2 upper injector pipes(pic 4), the other 4 you just loosen from the pump and leave in place.
Last take off the diesel hoses and remove the 4 screws keeping the pump in place and dont forget the 2 screws keeping the upper inner cam belt covers to the pump. Now the pump should be loose but will usually need some wiggeling to come off the guides.
If you decied to go on with this job, I can do a short write up of how to pull the pump head later, but its rather straight forward

26385263862638726388

[A. Waterfield]

super write up. its out on the bench, i cant get the HP pump end out of the body. the plate with the 6 injector outlets... i do not want to break it....

[ametlib]

No, breaking it is a bad idea. I'ii check if I can find a picture of the pump head so you can see what you're up against. The reason the pump head sticks in place is probably the 3 o-rings..

See the pic. the big 6 barrel revolver will come out with the distrubitor and the plungers , use two large screwdrivers and bend the lump out

[ametlib]

26389

[ametlib]

Just one thing, dont turn the distrubitor/plungers without marking it or checking if it can be refitted 180 degrees off, it will have to go back in the same position it came out ( but maybe that was obvious ?)

[A. Waterfield]

ok used large spanners to lever head off. not stripped it any further. found a problem. the grey head with the 3 o rings - on the size that mets the bearing there is a flat seal that has shredded and lifted a little. what would this cause?26390

[bluezie]

A shredded seal is not right, so this could be the cause of a jam / blockage, or a symptom of a foreign object floating around inside the pump.

[ametlib]

Its not a shreddid piece of one of the o-rings ? Question2- are one of the plungers stuck? What about the red-ish color ? Looking at the pic I cant really understand what that piece of seal is doeing there ?

26391 26392

[A. Waterfield]

part 50 on your plan it was the o ring under the seal in my picture so between the bearing and chamber 1 of the pump head.. how it managed to burst / push back i do not know. i have opened the pump head cover and there is no debris except some o ring fragments. which part are the plungers? in picture below parts in green have been checked and are free moving. there is only one slide cylinder here i thought there should be two?

items 801 how is this removed?26393

[A. Waterfield]

26394parts in question how to remove the body and why do i only have one of these cylinders

[ametlib]

part 50 on your plan it was the o ring under the seal in my picture so between the bearing and chamber 1 of the pump head.. how it managed to burst / push back i do not know. i have opened the pump head cover and there is no debris except some o ring fragments. which part are the plungers? in picture below parts in green have been checked and are free moving. there is only one slide cylinder here i thought there should be two?

items 801 how is this removed?26393

The part you call slide barrel is the plungers and your pump have 2 of them. Item 801 is the advance piston and if you wants to take it out you need to pull the pulley off the shaft, get hold of the biggest, badest puller you can find
and let me add- good luck. It takes a bull on steroids to break that cone !! But why would you want to dismantle more stuff ? Anyway if you take off the pully, make sure to put it back in the same position !
I,ll say no more off then +-1mm measured on the outer rim of the pully !

I dont understand where the broken seal is located, could you post a picture or do you see it on any of the pics. below ? Is it possible to replace it ?

I just remembered what " barrel" means. Yes your pump have only one hole drilled right through the distrubitor shaft and in the hole, 2 plungers, one on each side.

2639626397

[A. Waterfield]

ok i do not have the equipment to pull the rest apart. i have no reason to believe there to be a problem there on a 60,000 mile pump. see the pic the seal sits under the lid of the pump head.

so where is the other plunger and would it run witout one?

i am thinking that it might be best to buy a new pump despite most of this pump being ok. I am not sure if the seals i need are in the seal rebuild kit. or if anyone knows a part number for the pump head?

26398

[ametlib]

Is the broken o-ring slightly smaller than the 3 large ones ? If so I believe you have found your fault ! It seals off the pressure chamber within the diapgrahpm,meaning if its broken there will be no pressure to move the plungers/ fill the plunger chambers....
Meaning if we have the same fault, an ebay seller ripped me off for %(&#" Euros 26399

[ametlib]

You posted while I was writing, yes definitly the diagrapm seal ! Would it run without one plunger ? the 2 plungers push against itchader to make pressure over 1000 bar. The other plunger didn't fell out when you pulled the pumphead out ?
The seal you need is in the rebuild kit (or maybe you can buy only the missing o-ring, ebay is your friend).

BTW No it will defintly not run with only one plunger, yes the other one was there before you opened the pump, no there is no good idea to buy a new head, your pump cost pennys to fix if you can find the missing plunger, a rebuild costs
%&"# £- your desition, at least you found the fault

[A. Waterfield]

is broken o-ring slightly smaller than the 3 large ones ? If so I believe you have found your fault ! It seals off the pressure chamber within the diapgrahpm,meaning if its broken there will be no pressure to move the plungers/ fill the plunger chambers....
Meaning if we have the same fault, an ebay seller ripped me off for %(&#" Euros Attachment 26399 (VW AUDI Forum - VWAF (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26399))


ok so yes it is that o ring. the plate that o ring sits against has a plastic lip/seal around the edge. this has been lifted and cracked by the pressure. is this in a rebuild kit? if not then I need a new pump head plate26400

[ametlib]

Cracked diaphragm ! internet is full of it, but ONLY on US pages about cummins ? Now we know this happen to european pumps as well ! good job ! You'll not find the diaphragm in the seal kits, contact diesel bob or one of the other rebuilders and see if anyone
can help or check on ebay maybe a pump with cooked up brain ?

[A. Waterfield]

contact diesel bob or one of the other rebuilders and see if anyone
can help or check on ebay maybe a pump with cooked up brain ?

on the case. great work Ametlib! without your help i would be stuffed, shafted, knackered, lost, alone.....

[ametlib]

on the case. great work Ametlib! without your help i would be stuffed, shafted, knackered, lost, alone.....

Actually No, you have balls and would have gotten there anyway, on the contrary I have a feeling you've helped me more than I helped you, we'll see. Please post back about a happy ending !

BTW if you,ve not yet found a diapraghm they sell them in Poland costing around 13 £, google " membrana zestaw pompy VP44" If your Polish are as good as mine maybe you can find someone on this forum that understand polish,
just find a typical polish name ( adamss ? :D ) and send a PM ?

[A. Waterfield]

Actually No, you have balls and would have gotten there anyway, on the contrary I have a feeling you've helped me more than I helped you, we'll see. Please post back about a happy ending !

BTW if you,ve not yet found a diapraghm they sell them in Poland costing around 13 £, google " membrana zestaw pompy VP44" If your Polish are as good as mine maybe you can find someone on this forum that understand polish,
just find a typical polish name ( adamss ? :D ) and send a PM ?


Ok ordered the part- bosch 1 467 045 032 which is the diaphragm and associated o rings £34 Gbp delivered from teileheini.de UPDATE Failed to deliver Money Returned....

found after polish searches revealed the bosch part number. Now it is a waiting game.....

I say the internet is grreat! This information was just not available 10-15 years ago

[bluezie]

Yes, the internet is fantastic for finding these things out. 10 - 15 years ago it would have been main dealer for diagnostics, and then the whole pump replaced, and a bill of well over £1000.
The internet has also exposed all the corporate denials that seems to be the default setting for any company who's products go faulty. They deny there is an inherant problem with a component, and say 'your car is the first one ever to have this part fail' until there are so many failures, a recall is forced upon them.

[ametlib]

Ok ordered the part- bosch 1 467 045 032 which is the diaphragm and associated o rings £34 Gbp delivered from teileheini.de

found after polish searches revealed the bosch part number. Now it is a waiting game.....

I say the internet is grreat! This information was just not available 10-15 years ago

Yes agree, 10 years ago there was no way I would have open one of these pumps by myself ! The VP 44 was high tech ! mystique.If faulty is was wrapped up and sent to the experts .Internet made it possible !
While you are waiting for parts may I suggest that you check if the glow plugs are still alive ( ohm) and then never pull of the wire of the CTS or the oil temp again! The only better way to kill glow plugs is to dismantle them and hook'em up on the battery
until the light goes out ........;)
Also a good idea to clean out the bores and the small filters and make sure to not leave any small parts from the o-ring in the pump head.
If you dont have the torque values for the screws, I have it written down some place

[bluezie]

Yes agree, 10 years ago there was no way I would have open one of these pumps by myself ! The VP 44 was high tech ! mystique.If faulty is was wrapped up and sent to the experts .Internet made it possible !
While you are waiting for parts may I suggest that you check if the glow plugs are still alive ( ohm) and then never pull of the wire of the CTS or the oil temp again! The only better way to kill glow plugs is to dismantle them and hook'em up on the battery
until the light goes out ........;)
Also a good idea to clean out the bores and the small filters and make sure to not leave any small parts from the o-ring in the pump head.
If you dont have the torque values for the screws, I have it written down some place

All 6 of my glow plugs are open circuit (AKE engine), and it starts instantly and smoke free unless it's -10 oC or colder, when it starts, stalls, starts, stalls then runs with a little smoke for a few seconds. I tried to remove the glow plugs a year ago, but could only move one about 1/8 turn. They would have all snapped off if I'd tried any more! So on a basis of I don't actually need glow plugs, I'm leaving well alone.

[ametlib]

All 6 of my glow plugs are open circuit (AKE engine), and it starts instantly and smoke free unless it's -10 oC or colder, when it starts, stalls, starts, stalls then runs with a little smoke for a few seconds. I tried to remove the glow plugs a year ago, but could only move one about 1/8 turn. They would have all snapped off if I'd tried any more! So on a basis of I don't actually need glow plugs, I'm leaving well alone.

Run the engine steaming hot, then use cooling spray/ ice spray on a glow plug, give it a quick "snugg" clockwise and then screw it out, if it stucks, screw it in/out until it cooperates....
Starting in -10 without glow plugs ? Yepp, mine can do that too! But only if I crank it for an hour or so ! ;) A couple of weeks ago I fitted a direct feed to the glow plug relay in order to check if glowing it could improve starting when the webasto hadn't
run full time.
And the result ? Actually got 2 results ! First glowing it didn't affect the starting at all , second wifey wanted to be absolutely sure, so she glowed it long and good and fried 4 out of 6 glow plugs !!:biglaugh:
Needless to say but the hot wire is gone,
and I'm absolutely sure that it won't start without working glow plugs in -10

[bluezie]

Perhaps some engines came out of the factory with a very slightly higher compression ratio, ie they were right on the limit of needing a thicker head gasket, but got the thinner one. There must be variations in compression ratio, as three thickness of gasket are available. The compression ratio will dictate the coldest temperature that the engine will fire up.
Mine has been such a brilliant starter, I assumed all the glow plugs worked, until I tested them.

[A. Waterfield]

Right - Teileheini cancelled my order with out my consultation...... probably a euro posting thing.... Now incontact with Diesel Bob.

[ametlib]

Right - Teileheini cancelled my order with out my consultation...... probably a euro posting thing.... Now incontact with Diesel Bob.

Pay pal oder nichts :D

[A. Waterfield]

Pay pal oder nichts :D

it was paypal actually:biglaugh:. Diesel bob did not reply to my request. ordered again from germany different supplier due in 3-4 days....

[ametlib]

it was paypal actually:biglaugh:. Diesel bob did not reply to my request. ordered again from germany different supplier due in 3-4 days....

Shii... ;) Just for the record this simple methode made pulling the pump head a walk in the park2646926470

[A. Waterfield]

ok so its back together. I think the cylinder with the plunger had been put back in 180deg out. got fuel mist out of turbo exhaust but no start. turned the pump pulley 180 deg and it runs but it sounds like the worst knock you ever heard in your life. I am concerned.....

can the timing make it knock that bad it sounds like a piston hanging out.? if it is just timing then i'll pull the pump head and turn it 180 degrees and check my timing marks..

first attempt it went back exactly and turning the pulley 180 was done by eye/rule. thoughts? concerned about running it even at idle before doing anything else - seriously sounded BAD...

[A. Waterfield]

sounds like this persons motor

2.5tdi AKE timming problem - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3v61-6DmNc)

[bluezie]

Yes, the timing can make the engine sound like a bag of spanners. Have you had it on VCDS to see what the timing is really doing?
I should imagine the pulley / pump shaft is where it's timed wrong.

[ametlib]

Hi,
am not sure if its actually possible to set the cylinder 180 deg. out ? anyway if you mess up the timing, and especially 180 deg. most of the older engines will fire and then die, fire and die aso. but at least one of the merc. engines will run 180 out ( have tested :D) and it
sounded awful +. If you put the pump back exactly where you marked it I'm afraid you did exactly as you suggest- cyl in pump 180 out. Pull the pump again.....

Since you've now turned the pump approx. 180 deg. I believe its better to time the pump from scratch, but that means you have to get access to under the car to find the timing mark in the crank..

[A. Waterfield]

ok so i rebuilt the pump head Correctly I believe... it is now timed correctly and is matched to its original markings . it idles fine but does not rev well giving 00550 code start of injection intermittent.....

confused now...... most likely cause is the advance piston? as we have not touched the advance piston why would this play up now.?

[ametlib]

ok so i rebuilt the pump head Correctly I believe... it is now timed correctly and is matched to its original markings . it idles fine but does not rev well giving 00550 code start of injection intermittent.....

confused now...... most likely cause is the advance piston? as we have not touched the advance piston why would this play up now.?

Good question, what readings do you have on cold start valve/ advance solenoid at idle, coolant temo above 85 C . ?

[A. Waterfield]

Good question, what readings do you have on cold start valve/ advance solenoid at idle, coolant temo above 85 C . ?


not yet laptop battery went flat..... after a re-start it ran and revved fine, done a few miles and its driving normally possibly a bit of air locked in.. I'll check the above on VCDS tomorrow.. seems like its finally fixed... time will tell..

[ametlib]

I guess the advance piston was sticking a little.
Both pumps I pulled into pieces was pretty clean inside exept from the advance piston/ advance piston sleeve and surronding areas.
Both piston and sleeve was scored, in addition there was rust (! )on the sleeves and underneath the piston there is a small chamber that was full of dirt/ debris.! This was the same in both pumps, so I guess the advance piston are a weak spot in the vp44?

Can you do me a favor, when engine at temperatur, check the timing at idle and also the highest read flat out over 3K ?

[A. Waterfield]

I guess the advance piston was sticking a little.
Both pumps I pulled into pieces was pretty clean inside exept from the advance piston/ advance piston sleeve and surronding areas.
Both piston and sleeve was scored, in addition there was rust (! )on the sleeves and underneath the piston there is a small chamber that was full of dirt/ debris.! This was the same in both pumps, so I guess the advance piston are a weak spot in the vp44?

Can you do me a favor, when engine at temperatur, check the timing at idle and also the highest read flat out over 3K ?

ok so left some 6 hours and at 0.5deg outside temp, cranked for 5-6 seconds and burst into life. sounded like it was missing a few beats with a clack from the engine on miss, smokey. struggled to rev up to 2000rpm but would rev better above 3k. Once engine warm drove normally if a little low on power.

the 00550 code was cleared before this run and has not returned. car has been on a 4 mile trip and i have done some logging. no fault codes logged.

I cant seem to upload the excel data log files.

[A. Waterfield]

when logged water temp 91.3. Data from Actual Start Column - so timing is 800rpm -2.4 @3000rpm +7.6 @4100rpm +11.8 interestingly under load between 1000 and 2000 rpm timing goes as low as -7

cold start valve @800 69% @3000rpm 49.3% @4100rpm 39.8%.

cold start valve when 1400rpm @-7deg retard 83.2%


I am thinking that the injectors could be a problem I recall there being a large difference in the injector spec columns... it is i guess possible that the failing pump has buggered the injectors.....

[ametlib]

when logged water temp 91.3. Data from Actual Start Column - so timing is 800rpm -2.4 @3000rpm +7.6 @4100rpm +11.8
interestingly under load between 1000 and 2000 rpm timing goes as low as -7

cold start valve @800 69% @3000rpm 49.3% @4100rpm 39.8%.

cold start valve when 1400rpm @-7deg retard 83.2%


I am thinking that the injectors could be a problem I recall there being a large difference in the injector spec columns... it is i guess possible that the failing pump has buggered the injectors.....

Definitly interesting ! cannot recall to ever have seen any 2,5 tdi go back to 7 atdc ? But it might be right though, I guess -7 was actual timing, how about requested at the same time ?
Injectors may be buggered or they may not, check the readings on measuring blocks 13 & 14 next time you have VCDS hooked up.
The US guys running VP44's seems to have a common understanding that low fuel pressure ( from the tank) makes the diapraghm rupture ? So I'm thinking eighter the diapraghm in your I.P. was the weak spot, or maybe another fault was responsible for the happening ??...

[A. Waterfield]

injection deviation.....http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26569&stc=1http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26570&stc=1http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26571&stc=1

[A. Waterfield]

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26572&stc=1http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26573&stc=1http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26574&stc=1http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26575&stc=1

[A. Waterfield]

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26576&stc=1http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26577&stc=1here some logs of IQ Timing and temps.

[A. Waterfield]

just found a massive air bubble at the fuel filter. got a v small hiss when cranking over, the hiss stopped when i pressed on the fuel filter valve. removed fuel valve from fuel filter on a blow test with my great lungs and air flows all ways - question is this a true one way valve as i can blow into it from the tank return end and it comes out in the fuel filter and out of the fuel return end.??

[bluezie]

Looking at the logs the timing is badly retarded. The specified is asking for advanced BTDC angles, and the actual is nearly always in ATDC retarded.

Have you tried checking the timing in 'basic settings', so VCDS cycles the timing from fully advanced to fully retarded. This is where you should see -2 degrees (ATDC) when fully retarded. Or at least 0 to -4 to be in spec.

[bluezie]

Also the cylinder deviation is way out of spec - +1.5 to -1.5mg/st is max deviation.

[ametlib]

just found a massive air bubble at the fuel filter. got a v small hiss when cranking over, the hiss stopped when i pressed on the fuel filter valve. removed fuel valve from fuel filter on a blow test with my great lungs and air flows all ways - question is this a true one way valve as i can blow into it from the tank return end and it comes out in the fuel filter and out of the fuel return end.??

The one way part goes only for the centre piece of the valve, fuel can only go into the filter, not out. Looking at the logs the timing seems to behave odd, maybe a lot of air in the fuel is a good explaination ....?

[A. Waterfield]

ok so new o-ring at the fuel temp valve. bled the system again. started and idled fine. with cross inlet manifold off it revved fine for 2-3 attempts and was smooth. couple of air bubbles from filter hose but to be expected as pipes had been off. left to idle to 85 degrees with some attempts at holding any set rpm under 2100rpm with coughing and spluttering. once warm it is less apparent, test drive saw good accelleration over 2100 and flat power build to this point. any revving above 2100 in neutral to redline is free and normal.

if you notice that the timing is only wildly out before 2100 rpm or there abouts after this it comes in line with spec give or take 2deg.

what is causing this? at what point do the injectors open up to second stage injection?

injection timing is smack on the center line at idle in vcds and says in spec? ( i did advance it to the green line and it overall felt better to drive, less noticeable retardation still hetistant to hold revs below 2100)

so after the initial start there is no air bubbles in the clear tube. if there is any air drawn in it must be from the pump? any weak points?

effectively with exception of the 1-2000 rpm spluttering it is driving as it was post diaphragm failure so its difficult to know if the pump is still not right or the car is not right...


Just noticed this thread - similar situation - turned out to be injector fault...
http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-123978.html?

[bluezie]

I've never used the VCDS timing graph, I use the factory Audi manual method that checks the timing in basic settings. Have you tried this method to see if it agrees with the other method?
Looking at the wild timing, and way out of spec cylinder deviation, I think this is caused by air in the system. Since the actual timing is reported back by the needle lift sensor, any air in the system will need to be compressed and delay the injector's actual opening time, hence the retarded timing. Air will also cause cylinder deviation, as the injectors will be firing different amounts of fuel depending on the amount of air present. Coupled with wild timing, the ECU is deperately trying to smooth things out by trimming the fuelling to each cylinder.
I had a missfire and jerky accelleration on my AKE, it started and ran perfectly, but missfired and jerked when driving for a few seconds after starting. After a lot of mucking around, I changed the leak off pipes, and it was cured. So air can get in anywhere, and when the fuel is cold, some of the air is recycled straight back to the engine via the thermovalve instead of being sent to the tank.

[ametlib]

There is something weird going on, but first- do not rew the engine with the crossower manifold off, you will rew the living hell out of the turbo ! ( have seen that happen )
The stage two off the inj. opens when the IQ exeeds a specific level in mg/str. Don't know when.
By looking at your logs it seems like its two possible explainations- 1- the timing graps is wrong, check timing in basic settings, retarded phase spec is 0-4 atdc, coolant 85C or more engine idling. 2- if timing is ok the pump suffers from fuel starvation, maybe the pick up in the
tank is clogged, bad thermostatic valve or clogged fuel filter (water) ?

[A. Waterfield]

I've never used the VCDS timing graph, I use the factory Audi manual method that checks the timing in basic settings. Have you tried this method to see if it agrees with the other method?
Looking at the wild timing, and way out of spec cylinder deviation, I think this is caused by air in the system. Since the actual timing is reported back by the needle lift sensor, any air in the system will need to be compressed and delay the injector's actual opening time, hence the retarded timing. Air will also cause cylinder deviation, as the injectors will be firing different amounts of fuel depending on the amount of air present. Coupled with wild timing, the ECU is deperately trying to smooth things out by trimming the fuelling to each cylinder.
I had a missfire and jerky accelleration on my AKE, it started and ran perfectly, but missfired and jerked when driving for a few seconds after starting. After a lot of mucking around, I changed the leak off pipes, and it was cured. So air can get in anywhere, and when the fuel is cold, some of the air is recycled straight back to the engine via the thermovalve instead of being sent to the tank.

all the above does sound feasible.... i do not know the audi procedure if you could give guidance? are new leak off pipe an audi only affair or is there another option?

[A. Waterfield]

There is something weird going on, but first- do not rew the engine with the crossower manifold off, you will rew the living hell out of the turbo ! ( have seen that happen )
The stage two off the inj. opens when the IQ exeeds a specific level in mg/str. Don't know when.
By looking at your logs it seems like its two possible explainations- 1- the timing graps is wrong, check timing in basic settings, retarded phase spec is 0-4 atdc, coolant 85C or more engine idling. 2- if timing is ok the pump suffers from fuel starvation, maybe the pick up in the
tank is clogged, bad thermostatic valve or clogged fuel filter (water) ?

ok i do not rev it hard only to see if it stutters :) 1. will check this tomorrow. 2. is there an easy way to check tank pickup? is it located where the tank prime pump is? i hope it is not a bad thermo valve as it is new audi part..... again fuel filter is new how could it get that much water ingress how can this be tested?

[bluezie]

In VCDS check measuring blocks 07, zone 4, engine temp, and when 85 degrees or more close measuring blocks and start basic settings.
In display group 04, check zone 4. this must be 100%, (but seems to always read 100.2%)
Look at zone 2, and this switches from advanced to retarded every 10 seconds.
When retarded, look at zone 3 and should read 2 degrees ATDC +/-2 This is the timing figure you need.

As the engine is retarded and advanced, it changes tone dramatically from quiet to very clattery.

[A. Waterfield]

In VCDS check measuring blocks 07, zone 4, engine temp, and when 85 degrees or more close measuring blocks and start basic settings.
In display group 04, check zone 4. this must be 100%, (but seems to always read 100.2%)
Look at zone 2, and this switches from advanced to retarded every 10 seconds.
When retarded, look at zone 3 and should read 2 degrees ATDC +/-2 This is the timing figure you need.

As the engine is retarded and advanced, it changes tone dramatically from quiet to very clattery.

ok i get it - just without the graph! I was just reading about injector bolts stretching, could cause the missfire and subsequent injector readings? saw a thread on a PD engine which had stutter smoke at low rpm and high injection deviation that had stretched/poorly torqued injectors ..?

so to clarify because my brain is fried - that is 0deg to -4 deg? optimum -2deg?

[bluezie]

Leak off pipes are I think 3.5mm and available from most motor factors. Worth replacing anyway, as they can perrish and become porous and let air in but not neccesarily leak out fuel. Look for damp spots on pipes.

The output of the fuel pick up and pump can be tested, as if yours is a 2005, it must be a BAU or similar that has pressurised pump feed from the tank. I think there may be an output test in VCDS to run the pump, if not link out the relay and disconnect the inlet to the VP44 and see what comes out.

[A. Waterfield]

Leak off pipes are I think 3.5mm and available from most motor factors. Worth replacing anyway, as they can perrish and become porous and let air in but not neccesarily leak out fuel. Look for damp spots on pipes.

The output of the fuel pick up and pump can be tested, as if yours is a 2005, it must be a BAU or similar that has pressurised pump feed from the tank. I think there may be an output test in VCDS to run the pump, if not link out the relay and disconnect the inlet to the VP44 and see what comes out.


it is a BAU, but the incoming tank feed is not outputing any pressure? it only moves what it can suck ..

[bluezie]

ok i get it - just without the graph! I was just reading about injector bolts stretching, could cause the missfire and subsequent injector readings? saw a thread on a PD engine which had stutter smoke at low rpm and high injection deviation that had stretched/poorly torqued injectors ..?

so to clarify because my brain is fried - that is 0deg to -4 deg? optimum -2deg? Yes spot on.

PD injectors totally differnt, and bolts must be repleced when working on injectors. As if not, they wobble, wear the bores in the cylinder head, the seals go and diesel leaks into the oil, and air into the diesel causing bad starting, white smoke, missfires, overfilled sump, camshaft wear and a massive bill ££££££! The V6 injectors are rammed in by a sprung plate, so a slightly loose or stretched bolt should have no effect on the injector seal, of which there is only the one copper washer. PD's have 4 seals separating the combustion chamber, from the fuel supply gallery, from the return gallery from the engine oil and air ingress - loads to go wrong!

[bluezie]

it is a BAU, but the incoming tank feed is not outputing any pressure? it only moves what it can suck ..

I know the AKE's draw fuel from a well in the tank, and the pump inside is just a scavange, but I thought ALL The B** coded engines had a pressurised feed - some definately do. Might be worth looking into a possible pump failure, as this could be a source of air ingress if the system is relying on sucking the fuel?

[A. Waterfield]

I know the AKE's draw fuel from a well in the tank, and the pump inside is just a scavange, but I thought ALL The B** coded engines had a pressurised feed - some definately do. Might be worth looking into a possible pump failure, as this could be a source of air ingress if the system is relying on sucking the fuel?

ok will do, i have found that vehicles upto serial no 4b_2_109430 have no pressurised feed and 4B_2_109431 have a pressurised feed. <I'll look find where my vehicle sits in this. Im now thinking it should be pumping as I have one of the last of this shape.. from before VP44 failed I had tested the pump supply which was working but had assumed that this was like the older models and it did not lift fuel..

lets hope the poor old VP44 is not trying to pull fuel through a siezed pump/blocked filter

[bluezie]

ok will do, i have found that vehicles upto serial no 4b_2_109430 have no pressurised feed and 4B_2_109431 have a pressurised feed. <I'll look find where my vehicle sits in this. Im now thinking it should be pumping as I have one of the last of this shape.. from before VP44 failed I had tested the pump supply which was working but had assumed that this was like the older models and it did not lift fuel..

lets hope the poor old VP44 is not trying to pull fuel through a siezed pump/blocked filter

Yes, I was assuming as yours is a 2005, it's the very last off the production run, so 'should' have a pumped feed.

[bluezie]

If it works anything like my VW T5 van, the pump should run for 2 seconds when turning the ignition on but not starting, so it can be heard priming.

[ametlib]

I'll be having 24 people to a dinner party in my home tonight, so no more posting until next year :D . Happy new year !

[bluezie]

Happy New year!

[A. Waterfield]

Happy new year!

All leak offs are renewed new o-rings on pump front left filter thing, and new fuel filter thermo valve o-ring. no change in stutter. fuel filled up with fresh diesel. no change.

slowly loosing hair with this problem. still no fault codes.

[ametlib]

New year- new posibillities!!No need to pull your hair out, my guess is you'll soon have your car up and running . First did you check the timing in basic settings ? If not do so and post back, coolant 85C or more read in retarded phase.. Can you explain the word "stutter" is that something like a missfire?

BTW when you check timing in basic settings, read the timing then go back to measuring blocks and rew the engine a bit, then back to basic settings and read the timing again. Do this a few times and see if the readings are the same.
Have a feeling the options are a sticking advance piston or a clogged up pickup in the tanks baffle chamber, the failing diaphgrahm indicates a fault in the tank as the best option ?

[A. Waterfield]

New year- new posibillities!!No need to pull your hair out, my guess is you'll soon have your car up and running . First did you check the timing in basic settings ? If not do so and post back, coolant 85C or more read in retarded phase.. Can you explain the word "stutter" is that something like a missfire?

BTW when you check timing in basic settings, read the timing then go back to measuring blocks and rew the engine a bit, then back to basic settings and read the timing again. Do this a few times and see if the readings are the same

Sorry! I had written a post and not finished it then forgot! Timing was consistently set at +0.6 and has been moved to -2 as per instruction. This was done without the graph in 004 basic. And was done before the leak off hose replacements tested at different intervals and is consistent Idle is consistent and steady but as soon and the pedal is touched it misfires and smokes out diesel. Much less noticeable if the cars oil and water is fully up to temp (I.e being driven).

Once warm the misfire is higher up the rpm range,.. 1400-2300 (tel:1400-2300) rpm some 2-300 rpm higher..

I can not understand why the ignition is so retarded up till 2100-2300 (tel:2100-2300) when it magically switches to meet spec. It is like flicking a switch. Also if you were to floor the pedal 100% it would normally rev right to red line with no hesitation.

I noticed that if the needle lift valve is disconnected that the timing shows 0.0 so the timing is not dynamically changed. what if a faulty needle lift were incorrectly giving data out about timing before getting to full injection pressure, so when leaned out when oil and water hot and therefore moving misfire up the revs as pressure delivery is reduced per rpm when hot? Could explain injector diff readings? Apart from the ohms test for needle lift is there any other way to monitor or test the needle lift

[ametlib]

I suspect what happens is that the ECU is only following the MAP until 2100 rpm and from there it will correct the faulty readings by using the advance solenoid . I just recently learned that the n75/ turbo regulation works this way !.....
Does the reading of the cold start valve/ advance solenoid make a jump when you rew it past the missfire rpm and the act. meets spec timing ?
The reason things works better when the engine is at temperatur is simply the fact that it's a diesel engine ...
The timing will change even with the needlelift disconnected or faulty, but the ECU cannot read the timing . My guess is something is restricting the fuel flow to the plungers , try to run the engine from a bottle

BTW a sticking advance piston is no longer an alternative, when the timing is stabil at -2 there is no way the advance piston could lower it to -7

[A. Waterfield]

I suspect what happens is that the ECU is only following the MAP until 2100 rpm and from there it will correct the faulty readings by using the advance solenoid . I just recently learned that the n75/ turbo regulation works this way !.....
Does the reading of the cold start valve/ advance solenoid make a jump when you rew it past the missfire rpm and the act. meets spec timing ?
The reason things works better when the engine is at temperatur is simply the fact that it's a diesel engine ...
The timing will change even with the needlelift disconnected or faulty, but the ECU cannot read the timing . My guess is something is restricting the fuel flow to the plungers , try to run the engine from a bottle

BTW a sticking advance piston is no longer an alternative, when the timing is stabil at -2 there is no way the advance piston could lower it to -7

humm i need a better way to run off a bottle as i kept getting air/ spills in when I was doing that before, maybe i'll go shopping for some bits to do a more professional temporary tank.... I am quite sure that the misfire / reluctant accelleration is a continuation of original problem i experienced before the starting issue (start of pump failure).. and that the pump is delivering what is asked of it.......

as its a new year, i would again like to thank you all for the Input!

[ametlib]

humm i need a better way to run off a bottle as i kept getting air/ spills in when I was doing that before, maybe i'll go shopping for some bits to do a more
professional temporary tank.... I am quite sure that the misfire / reluctant accelleration is a continuation of original problem i experienced before the starting issue (start of pump failure).. and that the pump is delivering what is asked of it.......

as its a new year, i would again like to thank you all for the Input!

Professional ? something like .................this:biglaugh:http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26594&stc=1

[ametlib]

Does the retarded timing makes it noisy or is it only pouring out beutiful white clouds of diesel fuel ??;)

[A. Waterfield]

Does the retarded timing makes it noisy or is it only pouring out beutiful white clouds of diesel fuel ??;)


only noisy in the sense that the engine is rattling itself. -- more clouds of smoke and shake than anything.

I can now confirm:
There is no air in the LP side of the pump. i have had a professional:) separate tank installed with clear hoses throughout. I had injected some air bubbles after there being no change in the way it ran, and they came out the clear return hose as micro bubbles. within 1 minute the air had been cycled out and it did not miss a beat during this test...

I can confirm:
There is pressure from the tank pump. with the engine hoses disconnected from the pump both the thermo valve and the engine outlet poured diesel (via my temporary hoses) so we can discount the tank pump.

so we have fuel flow!...

I have read that the TCM can retard timing if it requires? I think my next stop is either injector bench testing, pump pressure test (if possible) or ECU swap? or TCM swap or any ideas?

Audi 2.5 TDi A3 A4 A6 A8 six cylinder DOCH engine cuts out will not restart, probable cause. Injection pump failure, internal seal. found this @ http://www.remmington.info/vag.html LOL bit too late!

[ametlib]

Ok.
So running it from a "professional" separate tank didn't fix this issue, then if you add checking the fuel flow from the tank and a new filter+ thermo valve ... Lets just assume the fuel supply is ok.
Looking at your logs it seems pretty clear that the ECU is asking for the timing to be advanced, but the pump just cannot ? And retarded timing is white smoke ......
Must say I doubt that the TCM is programmed to make the engine run sluggish, but your fault is looking more and more like mine....
If it werent for my little issue ( and I have replaced the I.P.) I would have advised you to try another pump or to check the one you have, I dont think checking the injectors is good value for money yet

[A. Waterfield]

Ok.
So running it from a "professional" separate tank didn't fix this issue, then if you add checking the fuel flow from the tank and a new filter+ thermo valve ... Lets just assume the fuel supply is ok.
Looking at your logs it seems pretty clear that the ECU is asking for the timing to be advanced, but the pump just cannot ? And retarded timing is white smoke ......
Must say I doubt that the TCM is programmed to make the engine run sluggish, but your fault is looking more and more like mine....
If it werent for my little issue ( and I have replaced the I.P.) I would have advised you to try another pump or to check the one you have, I dont think checking the injectors is good value for money yet

ok so done some more logs, of transmission, injector diff again, and timing. today on 004 basic warm timing was around -3.2/-3.4 see pic. as soon as it was out of timing checker it returns to -5.6 when specified is 0.8? W T F. if it can make 2 degrees advance in 004 basic why not in dynamic mode?/? again when full throttle timing comes in line (even before 2000 rpm) My gut feeling is it is electronic issue not a physical one.

[ametlib]

I might be on pretty thin ice here :D, but I have an idea.
I believe that what we're looking for is something that A- will make the diapraghm burst and B- will allow the pump to run rediculessy retarded, far more retarded than the advance piston allows...
About A I can only take the words from the Dodge guys that low fuel pressure ( anything lower than 10 psi is bad ?) can make the diaphraghm break.
About B there are only 2 possible explainations. 1- the quantity adj. is beeing powered at the wrong time ( if so you're right about it beeing an electronic issue ). 2- the internal fuel pressure isn't high enough to refill the plunger chambers/ push the plungers out to their BDC.
So if the answer is low internal fuel pressure, there is a pressure/overflow valve fitted in front of the TCM ontop of the pump, easy to take out and check and can ( if faulty or sticking) actually explain the retarded timing,the burst diapraghm and the odd readings in MB 13 & 14

BTW if you look in my thread, last page I think, Finas posted a picture of it

[ametlib]

ok so done some more logs, of transmission, injector diff again, and timing. today on 004 basic warm timing was around -3.2/-3.4 see pic.
as soon as it was out of timing checker it returns to -5.6 when specified is 0.8? W T F. if it can make 2 degrees advance in 004 basic why not in dynamic mode?/? again when full throttle timing comes in line (even before 2000 rpm) My gut feeling is it is electronic issue not a physical one.

Maybe because specified is 70 % advance solenoid/cold start valve and not 0,8 dbtdc ?

[A. Waterfield]

I might be on pretty thin ice here :D, but I have an idea.
I believe that what we're looking for is something that A- will make the diapraghm burst and B- will allow the pump to run rediculessy retarded, far more retarded than the advance piston allows...
About A I can only take the words from the Dodge guys that low fuel pressure ( anything lower than 10 psi is bad ?) can make the diaphraghm break.
About B there are only 2 possible explainations. 1- the quantity adj. is beeing powered at the wrong time ( if so you're right about it beeing an electronic issue ). 2- the internal fuel pressure isn't high enough to refill the plunger chambers/ push the plungers out to their BDC.
So if the answer is low internal fuel pressure, there is a pressure/overflow valve fitted in front of the TCM ontop of the pump, easy to take out and check and can ( if faulty or sticking) actually explain the retarded timing,the burst diapraghm and the odd readings in MB 13 & 14

BTW if you look in my thread, last page I think, Finas posted a picture of it

I know it well. I'll take a look tomorrow, it is not sticking out like some seen on the internet, i did inspect it on the pump repair but didnt check it for opperation.. if I understand this correctly, if it were stuck partly open it would bleed off valuable pressure in low rpm situations (retarded) but at higher revs and therefore higher pressure get the timing back on track.. sounds reasonable. if not then it could well be the pump piston is not generating efficiently or electronic malfunction..

A shred of hope - i shall cling on to it!

i found this video in spanish showing a computer based how it works on the VP44. It has helped my understanding alot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNVOzc3RcXs

[ametlib]

I know it well. I'll take a look tomorrow, it is not sticking out like some seen on the internet, i did inspect it on the pump repair but didnt check it for opperation.. if I understand this correctly, if it were stuck partly open it would bleed off valuable pressure in low rpm situations (retarded) but at higher revs and therefore higher pressure get the timing back on track.. sounds reasonable. if not
then it could well be the pump piston is not generating efficiently or electronic malfunction..

A shred of hope - i shall cling on to it!

i found this video in spanish showing a computer based how it works on the VP44. It has helped my understanding alot. Cummins ISB Vp44 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNVOzc3RcXs)

Definitly about the pump pistons/ plungers. Eighter it is electronic or lack of fuel pressure, the fault you're seeing is a physical one and about the plunger chambers not filling up properly. When the pump starts the injection phase it uses the first crank degrees to
take in the slack and the injection will be to late ........
When the ECU runs the pump in basic settings it will give " all in" in retarded phase- meaning if the advance piston should retard the timing any further, the piston will have to come out of the housing .......
Are the ECU running a slightly higher rpm when entering basic settings ?
Maybe could explain that the timing dropped from -3,4 to -5,6 when the ECU leaves basic settings ?
Am pretty sure we have the same fault,
mine is rattling and smoking heavy during warmup, but on the first gen. AKE timing cannot be read until coolant temp exceeds 78,1 C . And exactly when it flips into hot mode, the idle smoothes out and the timing can be read -and it all looks good in VCDS ...;)

[bluezie]

I don't think the needle lift sensor is at fault, otherwise the engine would work 99% properly if the NLS is disconnected. The timing is still adjusted by the ECU using it's maps, but not as accurately as when the NLS completes the feedback loop.
I still can't get my head away from thinking there is air in the system, and I have thought of a little test to confirm or deny it. Try disconnecting the injector pipe to one cylinder, (particularly one with greatest positive cylinder deviation in VCDS measuring blocks), and insert the injector pipe in the bottom of a small container full of fuel, and watch for air bubbles in the fuel.

[A. Waterfield]

So checked the pressure relief valve not blocked clean as a whistle no visible wear on the cylinder or bore. strong spring. refitted and no change. i have advanced the timing (by ear) and imagine its set around 0 deg. been for a long test drive to assist any air locked in the pump. when hot it would only hint at misfire at around 1600-1800rpm but only on the way past up the rev range.. you can hear the timing retard as you pass through 1000-2000rpm. Its so difficult to know if its underperforming at motorway speeds, seems ok not really as fast as I remember it being.

<WHY DO YOU RETARD ******* PUMP>

bluezie i take it at this should be done and just crank it over?

[ametlib]

How much is the torqueconverter slipping when cold ? At motorway speed, any hesitation/ stall on WOT ?

[A. Waterfield]

How much is the torqueconverter slipping when cold ? At motorway speed, any hesitation/ stall on WOT ?


^ i have no idea.? seems normal to any auto I have had. ^ seems smooth enough, maybe slight chugging at part throttle, doesnt seem too quick to accelerate...

[ametlib]

How about WOT in forth or fifth, motorway speed, any hesitation/ stall/ sluggish behavior ?

Must say it still looks like the problem are the fuel pressure to the pump head when low rpm, maybe an idea to let someone measure the fuel pressure in the feed bore ? ( Bosch garage , not Audi )

[A. Waterfield]

How about WOT in forth or fifth, motorway speed, any hesitation/ stall/ sluggish behavior ?

Must say it still looks like the problem are the fuel pressure to the pump head when low rpm, maybe an idea to let someone measure the fuel pressure in the feed bore ? ( Bosch garage , not Audi )

going back to the transmission - would the car start and run without the TCU plugged in ? if so then if it were sending a retard signal this would dissapear? where is it located?

[bluezie]

So checked the pressure relief valve not blocked clean as a whistle no visible wear on the cylinder or bore. strong spring. refitted and no change. i have advanced the timing (by ear) and imagine its set around 0 deg. been for a long test drive to assist any air locked in the pump. when hot it would only hint at misfire at around 1600-1800rpm but only on the way past up the rev range.. you can hear the timing retard as you pass through 1000-2000rpm. Its so difficult to know if its underperforming at motorway speeds, seems ok not really as fast as I remember it being.

<WHY DO YOU RETARD ******* PUMP>

bluezie i take it at this should be done and just crank it over?

Yes just set it up and start the engine and run it on 5 cylinders. Maybe also swap over to a different cylinder/s to see if that's clear.
Re. theories on TCU retard signals - I though, (might be wrong), but when in basic settings and looking at timing at -2 degrees, isn't the timing mecanically fully retarded? As in no more retard signal can get it to retard any further due to it's on it's end stops?

[ametlib]

going back to the transmission - would the car start and run without the TCU plugged in ? if so then if it were sending a retard signal this would dissapear? where is it located?

If you open the ECU box you'll find a row of connectors against the bulkhead ( in the box) I think it's the orange connector , but my memory is rotten, check it up.
The engine runs with the connector out but will it give you anything exept 50 faultcodes ??
The fact is that the ECU is requesting the timing to be advanced, and the pump fail to do so !! Look at your own logs ....

[ametlib]

Yes just set it up and start the engine and run it on 5 cylinders. Maybe also swap over to a different cylinder/s to see if that's clear.
Re. theories on TCU retard signals - I though, (might be wrong), bu
t when in basic settings and looking at timing at -2 degrees, isn't the timing mecanically fully retarded? As in no more retard signal can get it to retard any further due to it's on it's end stops?

Yes I tried to explain that in my post 159, but it's mechanicly possible ( E.G. a malfunction in the TCM) for the pump to alter the timing at idle to 30 degrees ATDC by running ( powering) the quantity adj. to early or to late !!! And that is ofcoures with the timing right on spec !
Fuel starvation will make the same happen, retarded C.O.I. and at wot - nothing

BTW Yes, in theory air in the fuel will make the same thing happen, probably in reality too. Your idea is good, but I have a feeling that so much internal air ingress in the pump would made the car a non starter or at least very hard to start...

[A. Waterfield]

Yes I tried to explain that in my post 159, but it's mechanicly possible ( E.G. a malfunction in the TCM) for the pump to alter the timing at idle to 30 degrees ATDC by running ( powering) the quantity adj. to early or to late !!! And that is ofcoures with the timing right on spec !
Fuel starvation will make the same happen, retarded C.O.I. and at wot - nothing

BTW Yes, in theory air in the fuel will make the same thing happen, probably in reality too. Your idea is good, but I have a feeling that so much internal air ingress in the pump would made the car a non starter or at least very hard to start...


Ok ok I think you are correct regarding max retardation. I have just translated a polish forum with the same issue - was down to low pump pressure causing retarded timing. So it's off to diesel bob for a diagnostic and probable rebuild

[ametlib]

Good choice I'll keep my fingers crossed- and do post back !

[A. Waterfield]

for all those who follow this thread in their own fault analysis:

Google Translate (http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiklub.org%2Fforum%2Fviewtopi c.php%3Ff%3D27%26t%3D103674%26start%3D20&sandbox=1)

The above link through google translate has a good dialog which matches others thoughts on this thread regarding low pump pressure creating extreme retardation in low rpm situations.

Pump is boxed ready to send tomorrow. For reference Diesel bob charges £55+VAT for bench test £150+VAT for re-calibration and £350+Vat for full mechanical overhaul.

[A. Waterfield]

Next report - it has been bench tested and is drawing nearly no diesel through vein pump and is not keeping up demand with from hp side. Also metallic fragments found within. Need a new body which is very expensive. Bob is looking for a spare body to place my components in :( more delay more money...

[ametlib]

Oouch.
Sorry to hear, hope your next report is about good news !

[A. Waterfield]

So I have a new body, advance piston, and another used pump head, it now has pressure but fails fuelling bench tests, ecu has been requested to be changed, but both I and bob feel this would be too costly at this point. It is to be re fitted and tested on the car. I shall report back my findings later. If it's not 95% then I'll return it for a new ecu.

Note - if the pump head is removed and the rotating pump head is removed from the head it requires resetting with a special tool. Which I think means diy diaphragm replacements are a no go. Total cost so far 423+20% vat with new ecu 825+20% vat

[ametlib]

So I have a new body, advance piston, and another used pump head, it now has pressure but fails fuelling bench tests, ecu has been requested to be changed, but both I and bob feel this would be too costly at this point. It is to be re fitted and tested on the car. I shall report back my findings later. If it's not 95% then I'll return it for a new ecu.


Note - if the pump head is removed and the rotating pump head is removed from the head it requires resetting with a special tool. Which I think means diy diaphragm replacements are a no go. Total cost so far 423+20% vat with new ecu 825+20% vat

Hmm, very interesting ! Would have been fun to know exactly what Diesel bob is adjusting/ resetting when refitting the pump head ???! Especially since the only thing you can alter when removing the pump head and the rotating part from the head are the way the one hole
in the rotating part will align with the 6 holes in the distrubitor part during injection.
And since the one hole in the rotating part is actually not a round hole but actually a milled sipe wich allows the injection to take place during a lot of crank degrees ..................really, how much can you missplace the pumphead in the pump body when refitting it, there are 4 screws keeping the two parts together...........
2 things comes to my mind, 1- I think diaphraghm diy replacement are quite ok. 2- bear in mind Diesel bob do this for a living, and looking at the numbers in the end of your post it seems to work out quite well ( at least for him ;) )

[ametlib]

Another thing that comes to my mind is, since we now know that the vane pump was the problem ( according to diesel bob) What are the odds that both the vane pump - and the pump EDC was faulty ?
As I wrote above there is no problem to remove and refit the pump head ( and especially not if you mark up the housing and the pump head) However to put in a head from another pump is ( at least in the theory) a quite different question ....
Even the slightest difference in the angel beetwen the plungers and the " driving pin" between the new and the old pump head will mess up things.
The pump EDC will believe the plungers are at their BDC when their not and activate the Quantity adj. at the wrong time.....

[A. Waterfield]

Another thing that comes to my mind is, since we now know that the vane pump was the problem ( according to diesel bob) What are the odds that both the vane pump - and the pump EDC was faulty ?
As I wrote above there is no problem to remove and refit the pump head ( and especially not if you mark up the housing and the pump head) However to put in a head from another pump is ( at least in the theory) a quite different question ....
Even the slightest difference in the angel beetwen the plungers and the " driving pin" between the new and the old pump head will mess up things.
The pump EDC will believe the plungers are at their BDC when their not and activate the Quantity adj. at the wrong time.....


^ one would assume he must know this? the original head in the new body was tested and failed first before trying another head.. what would be the procedure if a complete new pump head were ordered, it would suffer the same problem? if so then surely the only way to get a correct pump setup would be a factory new unit ?

i had posted up another reply that has vanished?...

[ametlib]

Ofcourse he knows. I think the problem is ( I might be wrong though) that the pump EDC electronics is ROM, meaning the map is burned and cannot be changed. You can change whatever part you will, also a complete new pump head, but then the EDC will have to be told
where the plungers BDC is, and if the EDC is ROM that means a new one.....
Did he mention what was wrong with the old pump head ?

[A. Waterfield]

ok. so far:

pump is in on and running. drove ok reset timing drove ok. no missfire or smoke. timing was correct during the drive and felt good just not as fast as it had been before any problems. VNT actuator set to original position, now we get much more torque feels like it used to before any problems.

my only query. when it starts it idles at 500rpm for a split second before (like a switch) going to 800 rpm, along with this i have - pre injection turned off - intermittent. now you can hear it without pre injection at 500 rpm but it is normal and quiet at 800rpm.

any thoughts aside from the fact it is not factory perfect (but to drive it is hard to imagine much error)

[ametlib]

Finally some good news !
So question is - could anything bad happen due to fact that the pump EDC dont know the exact BDC of the plungers ? I put my money on the option no.. Would I spent 400 £ to get rid of a couple of seconds of bad idle on startup ? Here I will
need big letters ;) --- answer is definitly - NO. Aside from that- Well done !!!

[A. Waterfield]

Ok so I went to start cold today: start fire stall 3-4 times. Fires immediately, and once it stalls itself (while still cranking) it will not try to fire again until ignition key returned and the attempt start again. This what happened yesterday - I put it Down to some air at the time. No start = new edc/ecu

[ametlib]

Was afraid so. What happens is, during startup it will read no sensors ( exept the pumps internal position sensor )but only follow the map with the result to little fuel is beeing injected, doesn't matter if the quantity adj. is beeing powered to early or to late,
both alternatives will give to little fuel.
You could give it some more fuel using VCDS adaptations. Or even try to dislocate the position sensor/ sensor wheel to correct things, but I believe a new EDC is maybe a better/easier way to go ...... About the costs it looks more like a robbery.......

[A. Waterfield]

Was afraid so. What happens is, during startup it will read no sensors ( exept the pumps internal position sensor )but only follow the map with the result to little fuel is beeing injected, doesn't matter if the quantity adj. is beeing powered to early or to late,
both alternatives will give to little fuel.
You could give it some more fuel using VCDS adaptations. Or even try to dislocate the position sensor/ sensor wheel to correct things, but I believe a new EDC is maybe a better/easier way to go ...... About the costs it looks more like a robbery.......

there must be another way - looking to see if it could be re-flashed/modified.... may be cheaper than a new ecu just because bosch wont allow reflash an psg5 ecu......

[ametlib]

Great attitude ! Nothing is impossible but I'm afraid this needs a Bosch bench tester. There are a few videos on the internet of how they do this and it looks like they first measures the position of the plungers ( BDC) with an internal dial gauge ( pump head is off) .
And then programm the actual position of the internal position sensor into the EDC ? My guess is that a far easier DIY way is to turn the position wheel on the axle shaft. Since you lack fuel at idle , the quantity adj. is powered before BDC, also to early .
Meaning the position wheel need to be turned anti clockwise ( seen from standing in front of the car)
But wheater this is possible to do or not ? No idea :D only testing will tell

[A. Waterfield]

Great attitude ! Nothing is impossible but I'm afraid this needs a Bosch bench tester. There are a few videos on the internet of how they do this and it looks like they first measures the position of the plungers ( BDC) with an internal dial gauge ( pump head is off) .
And then programm the actual position of the internal position sensor into the EDC ? My guess is that a far easier DIY way is to turn the position wheel on the axle shaft. Since you lack fuel at idle , the quantity adj. is powered before BDC, also to early .
Meaning the position wheel need to be turned anti clockwise ( seen from standing in front of the car)
But wheater this is possible to do or not ? No idea :D only testing will tell

I also believe it is all related to the tdc/internal position sensor. It can only be a fraction out as it starts eventually. A very painful £450+ pounds to replace pump ecu when it just needs setup and flashing. Found a person in Poland whom can write/setup vp44 electronics, not sure if I should chance more time and money (if it doesn't work)

[ametlib]

Totally see the problem, but really, what is more time and money than Diesel bob ? You,ve so far paid 400 £ ? for what ??!! A non working pump with not a single new part inside ???!!! Looks to me that is exactly what you had before involving Diesel bob :biglaugh: ? Guess it must come
as a big surprice for Diesel Bob that you have to come back for a new EDC ? That is- after he changed the old pump head and the pump failed the bench test ??!
My suggestion is - go for the position wheel adj. Its only the 6 screws ontop of the pump and can be done with the pump in place ( if it can be done at all ), but before doeing so you need to read how many crank degrees thev quantity adj. is activated at idle, hot engine.
Measuring blocks 1 I think.
If you know that number, you can calculate how much the wheel or the pick up have to be moved, the direction you already know, as it is messing up the idle.. Poland, Diesel bob or MacGyver, up to you...

[A. Waterfield]

Totally see the problem, but really, what is more time and money than Diesel bob ? You,ve so far paid 400 £ ? for what ??!! A non working pump with not a single new part inside ???!!! Looks to me that is exactly what you had before involving Diesel bob :biglaugh: ? Guess it must come
as a big surprice for Diesel Bob that you have to come back for a new EDC ? That is- after he changed the old pump head and the pump failed the bench test ??!
My suggestion is - go for the position wheel adj. Its only the 6 screws ontop of the pump and can be done with the pump in place ( if it can be done at all ), but before doeing so you need to read how many crank degrees thev quantity adj. is activated at idle, hot engine.
Measuring blocks 1 I think.
If you know that number, you can calculate how much the wheel or the pick up have to be moved, the direction you already know, as it is messing up the idle.. Poland, Diesel bob or MacGyver, up to you...
It has had new body and Lp pump;). Can it be manually adjusted then?? I'll do some research

[ametlib]

Naa, I thought it was all used parts........but the fact remains- you had a bad injection pump -and you still have
When I find time I'll take a look at the pump parts I have laying in my garage, and check how the position wheel is attached to the rotating axle

[ametlib]

Sorry to report but it looks like it's crimped on, so the only way to fix this the MacGyver way is probably to drill bigger holes in the pick up and dislocate it, just don't know how smart that is ?.......
.26758



On the other side, the diameter on the position wheel is only 51 mm, representing 720 crank degrees. Meaning 1mm on the sensor is 4,5 crank degrees....

[A. Waterfield]

Well again thanks for taking the time to look into this. MacGyver - Is god.:beerchug:. I have come up with a system to get it started in 2 turns so for the minute its staying where it is... I have also found a second hand Professional VP44 180hp BAU specific tuning box for a couple of £ on ebay, going to give this ago as it modifies the duration of the quantity adjuster, and maybe (big maybe) might give enough fuel at idle to start first time :) if not then either more power (YAY) or a wasted afternoon.... (boo).

Regarding how it runs - It has been into the center of London yesterday a 60mile round trip, and it performed very well. reasonable economy for journey type and good overall power. in my mind it feels more like 150HP rather than 180HP but it is a 5sp Auto and quite heavy so maybe down to perception.... drive has been consistent and no poor timing moments, sluggishness etc...

[ametlib]

:D Don't know if a tuning box is good or bad news ? It will not improve starting, that's for sure, but maybe give you some hp back when accelrating ? The only easy fix I can see improving starting is to fool the coolant temp sensor with a resistor and a switch during startup , making the
ECU believe you are in the northern Norway instead of the warm UK. Adding 5K-ohm's serially into the circuit will " lower the temp" from 0 C to -20 C. Should make the ECU put the winter coat on and give some more fuel during startup ....
The minus side are about the expected life time of the glow plugs ... Did you read measuring blocks 1, how many crank degrees the quantity adj. are activated at idle, engine temp abowe 85 C ? Could clairify how much off things are

[A. Waterfield]

:D Don't know if a tuning box is good or bad news ? It will not improve starting, that's for sure, but maybe give you some hp back when accelrating ? The only easy fix I can see improving starting is to fool the coolant temp sensor with a resistor and a switch during startup , making the
ECU believe you are in the northern Norway instead of the warm UK. Adding 5K-ohm's serially into the circuit will " lower the temp" from 0 C to -20 C. Should make the ECU put the winter coat on and give some more fuel during startup ....
The minus side are about the expected life time of the glow plugs ... Did you read measuring blocks 1, how many crank degrees the quantity adj. are activated at idle, engine temp abowe 85 C ? Could clairify how much off things are

i'll look into that - chip now fitted power much more like it... no change to start... diesel bob emailed back stating that what is being experienced is not something he has heard of...

[ametlib]

I have 2 empty pump bodies laying in my garage, at least one of them are from a very high milage car. Funny thing is that none of them have any wear at all from the internal vane pump ( there are only contact axially in the pumps front) Makes me think of two things-
1-Pump body are made of alusil, very resistant agains wear. 2- Why did the vane pump wear out the body on yours ?
Contaminated fuel ? a blockage in the fuel supply ? or maybe a common problem ? just luck I've 2 without wear ?
Anyhow I fear your starting problems will not be any better now when the weater ( hopefully ;) ) becomes warmer. Maybe me beeing old and slow but what exactly have Diesel Bob not heard of ?

BTW. About my little issue, when your car was still running sluggish, did it ever smoke white ? Did the engine ever knock during accelration ?

[A. Waterfield]

I have 2 empty pump bodies laying in my garage, at least one of them are from a very high milage car. Funny thing is that none of them have any wear at all from the internal vane pump ( there are only contact axially in the pumps front) Makes me think of two things-
1-Pump body are made of alusil, very resistant agains wear. 2- Why did the vane pump wear out the body on yours ?
Contaminated fuel ? a blockage in the fuel supply ? or maybe a common problem ? just luck I've 2 without wear ?
Anyhow I fear your starting problems will not be any better now when the weater ( hopefully ;) ) becomes warmer. Maybe me beeing old and slow but what exactly have Diesel Bob not heard of ?

BTW. About my little issue, when your car was still running sluggish, did it ever smoke white ? Did the engine ever knock during accelration ?

The stalling / low idle issue bob had no awareness of happening before.

Re: your issue my car never smoked white that I could see, occasionally would bark a bit only from standing start full acceleration, due to low LP pressure? It has been out for another 20mile run with consistent power delivery now.

I have a theory that my car had been run on petrol by the previous owner, as the pump deteriorated dramatically in the 15k miles I have driven, and there is no other external influences.. start time / pressure generation is so much better with the new body. on ebay there are a few late 2004-5 models with similar sounding pump issues (also low miles) so Maybe a later model issue?.(or also miss fueled)

[A. Waterfield]

My email conversation with bob read from bottom up:
Hi Alex,

The internal speed sensor has been set & calibrated so I doubt it is that.

A refresh of the ecu will not work, I tried but the used head I fitted is
too worn to allow a reflash to be successful, it's going to need a new head
at the very least to attempt a reflash & possibly a new ecu if the reflash
does not work.

Have you tried running the pump on a direct can of fuel, bypassing the
original pipework/filter? It may be something as silly as air ingress.

Regards, Bob.





It will not start from cold without multiple attempts.... bugger. I
have timed it bang on spec and + 2degree earlier, has no effect on the
ailment, had tried a piggyback ecu with no additional change in
starting, more power tho....

for my two pence I believe its not seeing its internal positioning
sensor correctly (fractionally different in new body?) and this causes
it to stall immediately after firing up. I guess when the ecu links up
with the pump it then runs on the cam sensor needle lift etc rather than
internal position sensor.... so I guess this means a reflash or new

ecu?
let me know what you think..
Kind Regards
Alex

On 26/01/2015 18:43, "Bob" wrote:
Hi Alex,

Well your a lot nearer than I thought you would be!!

Not had such an issue to be honest, maybe worth a tiny tweak advancing


the
injection pump to begin with.

Regards, Bob.





Hi Bob, Pump up and runs, car drives spot on power good and no
smoke/timing issues. the only issue/query is over starting up. it
will fire almost immediately idle at 500rpm without pre injection for a
split second then idle at 800 with pre-injection all fine and dandy. I
have 1175 pre injection turned off - intermittent code.... I'll check
how it starts from cold tomorrow to make sure there is no other starting
issue....

penny for your thoughts.

Kind Regards,
Alex

[A. Waterfield]

so thinking that the pump ecu is ok, the position sensor is reading correctly, the pump head starts the car and runs the car fine so why could this cause it to idle low, and then stall? doesnt make sense. could an injector cause a problem (thinking that particles of metal have gone down stream from pump) or could it indeed be air getting into the pump. there is ZERO air bubbles going down the clear pipe to the pump so I know its not upstream of this pipe... why does it turn pre injection off??? after seeing the above email it makes me think I need to spend some more time looking at this issue before spending on (Pump head £200?+ and ecu £300?+ +bob?)

[ametlib]

Totally agree with the last sentence. As said, the reason it turnes off the pre. inj. is because the ECU can't see the start of injection signal coming from the needlelift ( at least not in the expected time frame) and reason is probably fuel starvation/ low fuel pressure in
the pump head.
Suspect something wrong in the fuel supply or think a little of this sentence, coming from Diesel Bob-" the used head I fitted is
too worn to allow a reflash to be successful" What more is the head to worn to do ? Make the engine start from cold ? What was wrong with the old head ?
From here I would do two things, 1- check measuring block 1, 13 & 14 , hot engine and post the readings. 2 Run the car from a can, go directly, not through the filter, and try to start it from cold