2014 MOT Regs - DPF Removal

[gribbo91]

Was on twitter last night and was reading through the new regulations being added to 2014 MOT testing and now includes DPFs. I've had my A6 remapped and had its DPF removed and I know a lot of you guys have done as well. My DPF has technically been gutted not removed so the pipe work is still there and the new regs mention DPF removal is now a fail from Feb 2014. Just wondering how we all stand? Here's the link about the DPF regulations - New rules for MOT to test for diesel particulate filter - Press releases - GOV.UK (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-for-mot-to-test-for-diesel-particulate-filter)

Alex

[Eshrules]

I thought it was common knowledge that removing the DPF was going to end in tears sooner or later - the revised MOT standards have been discussed quite a few times on here...

[zollaf]

thats the clincher, the bit about it exceeding the emissions regs for when it was built. so in 1994 there were no regs and a filter was voluntary, so my car is fine. in 2008, euro 4 (?) came in and most cars needed a dpf to pass. this sort is a true dpf that needs regenerating. earlier ones, like mine are a catalysing dpf that just fit and forget. so yes, if your car is post 2008 and you have removed the dpf, hope you have the receipt saying its quite legal to have it removed. pre 2008, you might be ok.

[Sam]

All the money companies spent on SEO marketing to peddle their 100% Legal* DPF removal services.

Ooops.

[Doctle Odd]

I knew that was bound to happen.

[zollaf]

now people will just need to hope that the ecu can be reverse de dpf'd. if not, your 20k car could cost you about 5k to put back on the road. i can see a lot of unhappy people and a lot of companies disappearing overnight.

[mjhamilton]

MOT tester will never dismantle or closely inspect to see if everything is in place, the ones I have spoken to say this is impossible as they would need to know the ins and outs of every car on the market

If your car looks intact with a gutted dpf with no obvious modifications and it passes the emissions test then it will pass the MOT - tester is not going to open the canister and see if it is gutter or not

Same with remaps - an MOT tester is never going to know if the Ecu has been altered so there is no way to check this either - also the are not going to go digging around for Ecu piggy back units

The new standards come with the best intentions but in reality it all looks intact from a quick viewpoint and the car passes the physical tests it will pass the MOT

My questions would be only as follows
- on eyeball inspection does the dpf appear to be there?
- will your car with the dpf removal pass the emissions test?

If the answer to both is yes then you will be fine

[Eshrules]

MOT tester will never dismantle or closely inspect to see if everything is in place, the ones I have spoken to say this is impossible as they would need to know the ins and outs of every car on the market
If your car looks intact with a gutted dpf with no obvious modifications and it passes the emissions test then it will pass the MOT - tester is not going to open the canister and see if it is gutter or not
Same with remaps - an MOT tester is never going to know if the Ecu has been altered so there is no way to check this either - also the are not going to go digging around for Ecu piggy back units
The new standards come with the best intentions but in reality it all looks intact from a quick viewpoint and the car passes the physical tests it will pass the MOT
My questions would be only as follows
- on eyeball inspection does the dpf appear to be there?
- will your car with the dpf removal pass the emissions test?
If the answer to both is yes then you will be fine
An MOT tester may not, but I can see this becoming the subject of random roadside inspections and I sense they will be more thorough.

I particularly like this part from the link above


it is an offence to drive a vehicle that has been modified this way

I can't see many firms being allowed to continue to remove the DPFs and claim what they're doing is legal and anybody who has their DPF removed knowing this is a fool - IMHO.

[Doctle Odd]

How long before they have an exhaust probe to analyse gasses?

[mjhamilton]

that's the million $$ question - if they can create a simple tester that will 99.9999% accurately show if the DPF is missing then people are screwed :)

but until then it's all a bit hit and miss

- even roadside inspections don't go down to that level, they don't physically take your car to bits to check for stuff.. ... "just going to remove your Cat and cut it open to see if the core it there" " just going to remove all the bits from the engine bay to remove the DPF and open it up to see if the core is there" - this is just not going to happen

And surely those companies who made money out of removing these systems can now make money putting them back in again ;)

[Doctle Odd]

They can tell how many drinks you've had at the roadside and they can tell if you been taking drugs and which ones. They can surely measure exhaust emissions at a test centre with roadside testing coming soon after. It's hardly impossible to make a device that plugs into the OBD socket and can interrogate an ECU for changes? If I can think of something like that surely the pointy heads have thought about it too and made a prototype?

[gribbo91]

my theory is that if the pipework is still there, like mine is and it passes the emissions test it should pass the rest of the MOT. Even Manufacturers can't tell if the ECU software has been changed, only way you can tell if it goes on a rolling road.

[Teflon]

Just found this on another site, so can't vouch for its accuracy but I've no reason to doubt it.

Tests for diesel cars and lorries are to be tightened Roads Minister Robert Goodwill has announced.
Garages will be required to check for a diesel particulate filter (DPF) in the inspection of the exhaust system as part of the MOT test from February 2014. The vehicle will automatically fail the MOT test if the filter had been fitted as standard but is found to be no longer present.
The filter works by trapping solid particulate matter from exhaust gases. This type of filter has been in use for more than 20 years and helps meet European emission standards, improving air quality and health standards. It will become an offence to drive a vehicle with the filter removed as it will no longer meet the emissions standards the car achieved when it was approved for sale in the UK.
Roads Minister Robert Goodwill said:
“I am very concerned that vehicles are being modified in a way that is clearly detrimental to people’s health and undoes the hard work car manufacturers have taken to improve emissions standards. It has become apparent the government had to intervene to clarify the position on particulate filter removal given the unacceptable negative impact on air quality.
“This change to the MOT tests makes it clear – if you have this filter removed from your car it will fail the test.”
The filters need to be ‘regenerated’ regularly through burning the soot to gas at a very high temperature, leaving behind a residue. If not carried out properly, regeneration can lead to a build up of soot, which can affect performance. This has led to some diesel vehicle owners opting to remove the filter.
- See more at: DPF test will be added to MOT from February - Garage Wire (http://garagewire.co.uk/news/dpf-test-will-be-added-to-mot-from-february/#sthash.i8GHciui.dpufDPF) DPF test will be added to MOT from February


So if anyone wants to become rich quick, start knocking up fake DPF bodies to sell to all those poor souls who've already ripped the original out.

Note: the above is not to be considered as business advice or an inducement to commit any sort of fraud or illegal activity. Just joshin with ya! Consult a professional advisor and a lawyer before entering that line of business.


.

[Guest 2]

2014 MOT Regs - DPF Removal (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?152836-2014-MOT-Regs-DPF-Removal)

;)

[DSG4ME]

I'm going to tell you how to own a dpf car without the tears (hopefully) as a lot of people who have trouble with them simply drive like running the sink with the plug in and walking off,

This reply will be in this and another thread as I'm not re-writing it all,


How 2 keep it clean

1 - It will only burn off and reduce the risk of blocking if the turbo is hot enough, to achieve this you must be above 2000rpm, 2500rpm 3000rpm is better and quicker, ;)

2 - I don't get the chance, yes you do you just don't realise it, it's rpm not speed that counts so a mile or so a day in 2nd gear at 30mph using the passive re-gen will help keep it clear,

3 - Active re-gen, when you stop and your rpm on idle is bouncing or higher than normal this is the regen at work and you should never turn the engine off until it's finished or you interrupt it and it won't be happy,

4 - If I gun it a few times it'll be ok, Nope it won't, gunning will help blow the small soot out of the exhaust and help the turbo veins stay clean but it's not long enough for dpf cleaning,

5 - Additives, jury is out on this, basically a dpf works two ways, double fuel squirt or squirt of urine derived liquid in tank in the boot, either way both are designed to heat the dpf up to aid soot burning so an additive will simply get cremated before it can do anything anyway so don't waste your money on it,

Stick to this and you shouldn't have any hassle with it blocking, sensors are another story so we won't go there, but generally the real problem is people aren't educated about the filter and thus drive economically and simply fill the dam thing up as it never gets a chance to shift the build up properly,

To verify a bit, I myself and a mate have the same cars, his is 2 years newer than mine, who do you think got a warning light on the dash and who hasn't yet?

[DSG4ME]

Threads now merged, post was as above.

[Doctle Odd]

3.0 engine 2500 RPM, DSG box,heavy traffic, I'm never getting into your taxi mate not even incredibly drunk :)
I'm going to tell you how to own a dpf car without the tears (hopefully) as a lot of people who have trouble with them simply drive like running the sink with the plug in and walking off,

This reply will be in this and another thread as I'm not re-writing it all,


How 2 keep it clean

1 - It will only burn off and reduce the risk of blocking if the turbo is hot enough, to achieve this you must be above 2000rpm, 2.5 3.0 is better and quicker,

2 - I don't get the chance, yes you do you just don't realise it, it's rpm not speed that counts so a mile or so a day in 2nd gear at 30mph will help keep it clear,

3 - Passive re-gen, when you stop and your rpm on idle is bouncing or higher than normal this is the regen at work and you should never turn the engine off until it's finished or you interrupt it and it won't be happy,

4 - If I gun it a few times it'll be ok, Nope it won't, gunning will help blow the small soot out of the exhaust and help the turbo veins stay clean but it's not long enough for dpf cleaning,

5 - Additives, jury is out on this, basically a dpf works two ways, double fuel squirt or squirt of urine derived liquid in tank in the boot, either way both are designed to heat the dpf up to aid soot burning so an additive will simply get cremated before it can do anything anyway so don't waste your money on it,

Stick to this and you shouldn't have any hassle with it blocking, sensors are another story so we won't go there, but generally the real problem is people aren't educated about the filter and thus drive economically and simply fill the dam thing up as it never gets a chance to shift the build up properly,

To verify a bit, I myself and a mate have the same cars, his is 2 years newer than mine, who do you think got a warning light on the dash and who hasn't yet?

[Ijgreer]

Seen online today

Tests for diesel cars and lorries are to be tightened Roads Minister Robert Goodwill has announced.
Garages will be required to check for a diesel particulate filter (DPF) in the inspection of the exhaust system as part of the MOT test from February 2014. The vehicle will automatically fail the MOT test if the filter had been fitted as standard but is found to be no longer present.
The filter works by trapping solid particulate matter from exhaust gases. This type of filter has been in use for more than 20 years and helps meet European emission standards, improving air quality and health standards. It will become an offence to drive a vehicle with the filter removed as it will no longer meet the emissions standards the car achieved when it was approved for sale in the UK.
Roads Minister Robert Goodwill said:
“I am very concerned that vehicles are being modified in a way that is clearly detrimental to people’s health and undoes the hard work car manufacturers have taken to improve emissions standards. It has become apparent the government had to intervene to clarify the position on particulate filter removal given the unacceptable negative impact on air quality.
“This change to the MOT tests makes it clear – if you have this filter removed from your car it will fail the test.”
The filters need to be ‘regenerated’ regularly through burning the soot to gas at a very high temperature, leaving behind a residue. If not carried out properly, regeneration can lead to a build up of soot, which can affect performance. This has led to some diesel vehicle owners opting to remove the filter.
- See more at: DPF test will be added to MOT from February - Garage Wire (http://garagewire.co.uk/news/dpf-test-will-be-added-to-mot-from-february/#sthash.F3mSdebc.dpuf)



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[Doctle Odd]

2 threads already mate and I bet the British and Irish governments both see a nice little income stream looming...

[gribbo91]

Spoke to a MOT tester mate this aft and the new bulletins haven't been issued yet for next year's MOT so until then we can't really saw on what's properly tested for DPF.

[DSG4ME]

3.0 engine 2500 RPM, DSG box,heavy traffic, I'm never getting into your taxi mate not even incredibly drunk :)

3000rpm Doc, sheesh do I always have to spell it out lol, :biglaugh:

[Doctle Odd]

I'd imagine you drive like John Dillinger! I'll buy you a pint and walk!

[fat controller]

The only slight glimmer of hope might be that the price of replacement DPF's might come down as they become a more commonplace replacement item?

[DSG4ME]

I'd imagine you drive like John Dillinger! I'll buy you a pint and walk!

I used to be a 4 wheel terrorist in my younger days and my mates used to nik me Jack Regan after the Sweeney, why I don't know cos he didn't drive lol, I poodle about now for a variety of reasons like, pedestrians who simply walk on you, kids, nothing to prove anymore, nowhere to go in a hurry, I just hold on to the memories of my ability behind the wheel doing it in the wrong places but doing it well, like wine you get old and either end up down someones throat or down the sink :D

Funny thing Doc was on hols in Torquay a few years ago there's a Kart track, so I took the kids out one at a time and for someone who'd been a fast driver I was hopeless, not sure if having the kid on board each time did it but it was a distant thing from when mum and dad let me have a go as a 14 year old where I got out of the kart to big smiles and how I reminded them of a racing driver I'd never heard of before in technique, shame I didn't have Lewis Hamiltons dad as my dad I'd be a retired Ferarri pilot by now eh ;)

I have to resist temptation these days anyway, I got an Albanian mate at work who is competitive and when we clear off a two car job he always wants to race back but I won't as I can and will beat him but it puts too many other people in danger as he will go as fast as he needs to to beat me without any thought of how he's going to bring the speed down in an emergency where even when I've been jockying it I've always kept an eye out for the unexpected and how I'm going to evade it if it should appear so I just let him go and sit back knowing he'll keep it reasonable if I refuse to play.

[Sam]

Spoke to a MOT tester mate this aft and the new bulletins haven't been issued yet for next year's MOT so until then we can't really saw on what's properly tested for DPF.

But it's great fun pretending we all know what'll happen though, innit :approve:

[zollaf]

what will probably happen is that a new diesel smoke tester will come in that will tell if the dpf is there and working or not.

[EssexGonzo]

what will probably happen is that a new diesel smoke tester will come in that will tell if the dpf is there and working or not.

And effectively test for the "thing" that the DPF is meant to clean/make better - which they don't do just yet. So false pipework, I'm guessing, might not work. After all, a DPF is presumably there to make an impact that is measurable. So a whole government committee will have spent years working out how to measure it.

Obviously they'll not be as clever as blokes on t'internet........;)

[zollaf]

technically though, dpf removal is tax evasion.
the road tax is charged by the amount of pollution. reduce that with a dpf and you pay less tax.

[Whippy53]

I would guess that the whole emissions testing thing will change anyway to cater for the introduction of the euro6 spec engines, probably an downloadable update to existing software will give the ability to analyse for a working dpf. Not too difficult I would have thought?

[snapdragon]

Nothing to worry about.
Just the usual "Read this or you might die" rubbish from UK's gutter press.
The MOT testers manual says:
Reason for rejection: A diesel particulate filter missing where one was fitted as standard - if you are not sure one was fitted as standard assume it was not.






Here are some interesting VOSA videos for MOT tester training:
Vehicle and Operator Services Agency GOVUK - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/user/vosagovuk/videos)
(The best ones are where they show how to carry out a part of the test. They don't cover DPF, but some intesting stuff and myth busting)

[zollaf]

after 2008 it would have almost certainly been fitted as standard.

[gribbo91]

Once the official VOSA bulletins hit Service Centres and MOT Centres we will learn more and see how it gets tested

[Alan G H]

Stop panicking. If this is being brought in next February, common sense says it will only be a visual check to see if a DPF is fitted, so, if the internals are removed, it will still look ok.
It will not be possible to check the internals are present without using totally new gas and smoke meters, and three months is impossible to get these installed in some 19,000 MOT stations. Previous upgrades to MOT equipment have had to give up to five years to get them introduced.
Don't forget, the MOT test does not allow any dismantling, and I think it unlikely that equipment will be introduced to check ECU's (imagine trying to defend the claims, "It was going all right until you plugged that tester in").

[DSG4ME]

There's an easy way to check, rev it up, no dpf and black smoke will appear regardless of the map, dpf still there you'll get no smoke or maybe a bit of grey smoke, it will also be as simple as tapping it, hollow things resonate, solid ones don't,

Sorry chaps, I think they are a good idea but only if they work properly, my 11 plate appears to function properly, earlier cars I'm not so sure so maybe the way forward is to only fail 2013 onwards cars if the dpf is removed.

[Teflon]

Here's another option for keeping a DPF running okay with less likelihod of having to rip it out. Add 2 stroke. http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/adding-2-stroke-oil-to-diesel-tank-read-this_topic37935.html


.

[Doctle Odd]

I saw on t'interweb that 2 stroke in a CR engine has the same effect as a woman on a mans brain
Here's another option for keeping a DPF running okay with less likelihod of having to rip it out. Add 2 stroke. Adding 2 stroke oil to diesel tank - read this - The Brick-yard - Page 1 (http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/adding-2-stroke-oil-to-diesel-tank-read-this_topic37935.html)


.

[Alan G H]

Here's another option for keeping a DPF running okay with less likelihod of having to rip it out. Add 2 stroke. Adding 2 stroke oil to diesel tank - read this - The Brick-yard - Page 1 (http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/adding-2-stroke-oil-to-diesel-tank-read-this_topic37935.html)


.

One problem I can think of is that all the two stroke oil I see is coloured red. Try explaining that to HM Customs if your car gets checked (a very small chance admittedly, but they do a lot of checks in this area).

[zollaf]

they know what the score is and will quickly tell the difference between a bit of 2 stroke oil and red diesel.

[zollaf]

i hope they do anyway as i run a bit of 2 stroke in mine.

[Alan G H]

i hope they do anyway as i run a bit of 2 stroke in mine.

Hopefully they would be able to tell at the roadside, but it could be an uncomfortable wait!

I have just had a look on Ebay, and can see that two stroke oil is available in green, which would look ok in diesel. I really must get out more!

[zollaf]

unless you live in ireland, where their red diesel is green :)

[bops6]

Workout doing of thread my car didn't have a dpf but I have gutted the cat. Casing is still in place so looks like it's the, will I be affected by latest mot regs?

330-350bhp/450-500lbsft
3.0tdi hybrid turbo, decat, improved intercooling

[fat controller]

Does the two stroke not upset the emissions or any of the sensors then?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[zollaf]

a lot of car may soon appear on the used market with very short mot's. be careful what you buy.

[Alan G H]

Does the two stroke not upset the emissions or any of the sensors then?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

It shouldn't affect any sensors as long as you don't use too much, BUT it must be a low ash type oil, or your DPF may block more quickly.

[fat controller]

Does it say on the bottle if its low ash then?

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[Alan G H]

Does it say on the bottle if its low ash then?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Some of the adverts on Ebay say low ash type oil, more than that I don't know.

[fat controller]

I'll have a look about - thanks

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[Crasher]

How many times in how many posts about DPF's did I warn about this happening in the last three years or so?

[Doctle Odd]

Just be careful FC you don't have an injector pump and some websites say 2stroke oil is bad for CR engines
Does it say on the bottle if its low ash then?

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[fat controller]

Ah, in that case I won't bother - mine runs like a Timex, so no point ruining it

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[Crasher]

You do realise that now there is going to be a run on the dealers and pattern suppliers on their stocks of DPF and pressure sensors plus un-****** ECU's don't you? I can see the posts now "been to the main dealer and they have told me my DPF is on back order to Germany for six months and my exhaust centre says the same thing, what do I do now", how long is it before we see that post?

[zollaf]

depends on the date they start failing the mot really. certainly make things quite interesting though. serves em right for trying to dodge the system though. a lot i suppose will just sell up, so as i have said, be careful what you are buying. there will come a day when new smoke machines can tell if a dpf is there or not and if not you will fail, rather like cats when they first came in.

[Doctle Odd]

I suppose they could say 1st January 2014, after all properly maintained car with a working DPF fitted would pass anyway
depends on the date they start failing the mot really. certainly make things quite interesting though. serves em right for trying to dodge the system though. a lot i suppose will just sell up, so as i have said, be careful what you are buying. there will come a day when new smoke machines can tell if a dpf is there or not and if not you will fail, rather like cats when they first came in.

[Crasher]

Yes they did that with cats originally, even though they had been coming in for a good few years they said from K reg onwards, then last year they moved the goal posts saying something like "if ever fitted must be there". Now on a 1991 Corrado it's going to be hard to enforce that (and to be honest who really gives a ****?) due to data being sketchy but on a 2010 A4 they are not going to have that problem are they!

[Dieseldoos]

But why is the part so expensive in the first place! And thats before labour to fit it!

[Crasher]

It is an extremely expensive technology using precious metals, which is why thieves jack cars up and steel them when they are accessible.

[theskyfox]

lol. Really glad I didn't go for a DPF Delete now :P.

Just a thought...when in neutral (or clutch to the floor), you can't rev the modern Audi Diesels over 2000rpm or so anyway, how much smoke are you going to get *really* at such a low RPM with a DPF removed?

-Andrew

[Guest 2]

lol. Really glad I didn't go for a DPF Delete now :P.

Just a thought...when in neutral (or clutch to the floor), you can't rev the modern Audi Diesels over 2000rpm or so anyway, how much smoke are you going to get *really* at such a low RPM with a DPF removed?

-Andrew

The French have the answer :p

http://i1.bebo.com/045/7/large/2008/04/09/20/699083352a7398316366l.jpg

[gazza57]

Surely though,

If you have a model of car in which a DPF is fitted as standard, removing the guts might make it appear OK but surely the measured emissions of particulates will correspondingly rise and therefore fail in any case.
BTW

Removing the DPF is pretty selfish environmentally and can't make that much difference and unfortunately if this practice becomes common you could end up with much more draconian measures being introduced and this will be as a result of the actions of a few selfish people like impounding and confiscation of your vehicle!!!

Remember the idiots who used to drive with no insurance and just get a producer only to carry on driving and expose others to the risks of their stupidity. they solved that with Section 165 of the road traffic act, now your car gets lifted £105, plus £12 per day storage, it would be relatively easy to equip Traffic Police with a particulate sensor , fail and it's straight to impound.

Why don't you just leave the thing in there for god's sake, some people just have to do things that thumb their nose at authority and make them feel as though they've had the law over, trust me they will always win because they can just change the law.

Gazza57

[Crasher]

Hear hear, well put, bang on old bean! :approve:

[mjhamilton]

Regulations are about to tighten if the rumbles on the news reports are anything to go by

[Crasher]

Regulations are about to tighten if the rumbles on the news reports are anything to go by


:D;):approve::beerchug::biglaugh::notworthy:cool:: arms::banana::biggthump:bigok::wiggle:

[EssexGonzo]

[URL] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/10573720/DPF-removal-the-facts.html /[URL]

[EssexGonzo]

[URL] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/10573720/DPF-removal-the-facts.html /[URL]

Sorry, can't get the link to insert properly on phone but hopefully a cut and paste should work....:confused:

[Hex69]

Sorry, can't get the link to insert properly on phone but hopefully a cut and paste should work....:confused:

Here you go

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/10573720/DPF-removal-the-facts.html

[Alan G H]

I have just found an MOT special notice recently issued which says the testers manual will change on 16/2/14. It also talks about diesel catalysts as well as DPF's, so it appears they intend to tighten up on a lot of older cars as well.

[faz777]

DPF's for diesels, is just a silly idea. totally pointless thing to do

[Crasher]

It will be better with urea additive I think, hope! If not then I see a very gloomy future for diesels in the UK. If plans being rushed through the EU and in the UK come into force as they are being suggested, only diesel engined cars conforming to EU6 will be allowed into city centres within the next few years and I can see it happening very quickly and in reality that means cars registered this year onwards! Those EU ***** want to fine us millions of Euro's as we have got filthy air from us driving cars THEY made in most cases!