BiTurbo - Tiptronic box modifications to kick down - errr no

[jbanfie]

Right, so I ran the kick down issue up Audi quite hard and hit the "Type Approval" wall.

The master tech at Yeovil Audi was quite sympathetic after I asked him how many times he had come to overtake a Nissan Micra at 20mph and his gear of choice was 1st!!!

He challenged the gearbox techs at Audi who basically said that any modification to gearbox behaviour would require a new type approval, which we all agreed was hard, and unlikely.

Swapping my car for an S7 when it is one year old would be 20 grand which is stupid, so I'm booking a trip to Holland to J D Engineering who now do two modifications for the BiTurbo and I may well say **** it and go for Stage 2. I think this will solve the kick down issue by the car never needing to; as from what DBLincoln says, all the hesitation dissappears, so gently adding throttle would dispatch the Nissan Micra without the need to kickdown to 1st at all.

To complete the picture, extra insurance cost looks to be about 60 quid a year - fine. Admiral have a number of options for chip tuning, 0-10%, 11-25%,25%+ etc. A stage 2 remap is 24.6% increase in power - perfect.

Have a look at JDEngineering – 3.0 TDI 313pk BiTurbo (http://www.jdengineering.nl/3-0-tdi-313-bit/)

Cheers

Jon

[EvilPostIt]

Have you put this past Audi at all? What would be their stance on warranty etc? Also if Audi do a software update to the car, from what I have been told, the engine map can be updated too which would effectively back out the changes made by JD wouldn't it?

As a frame of reference you say your insurance went up by £60, what was it before?

Pick mine up on Thursday... Will see how I get on with it first though.

[jbanfie]

Any changes to the engine mapping will invalid the warranty, although they won't know, so unless I break something in the drivetrain, the warranty is going to be OK. The mood seems to be that Audi are fairly sympathetic to tuning - provided you don't ask for a new engine when yours blows up.

Either way the car has lost 17K in 1 year so what the heck.

I can see myself getting one service done at Audi, the 1st one after about 22 months, so I'll ask them specifically not to upgrade the engine mapping. Also if your mapping does get wiped, JD Engineering keep a copy and you send the ECU over to them and it comes back done again - none of this phases me.

Insurance went from £250 to £310 on an Admiral policy 2 drivers (both over 40) 3 cars, lots of no claims bonus and leafy Somerset. Total policy went from 554 to 614, includes Mini Countryman (wife) and new Panda TwinAir (60 mpg run about).

Basically my view is that I have a love hate relationship with the car - it's brilliant, it's quick etc, the family including luggage and skis etc all fit for holidays and touring, it's the best tow car I've ever owned, but I find those Nissan Micra overtakes (and we get that a lot in Somerset and Dorset) are not what they should be.

In trials, the 30-70 pick up when starting from 2nd gear is 4.8 seconds, when starting from E,D or S on the gearbox and having a kickdown and engine pick up, it takes 6s. So there is 1.2 seconds for the box to kick down and the engine pick up - it makes that quick overtake very un-nerving and often aborted. If however you are prepared, so you've been driving in 2nd or 3rd hoping for clear road around the next corner, bam and off you go! Someone in a 245PS stronic should try these tests and let me know the details - please.

Now, link the 1.2s into the nightmare that is picking 1st or 2nd inappropriately and then having another gear change a split second later and the hate starts to build to unacceptable levels.

So I'm off to Holland in a bid to reduce the engine pick component of the 1.2 seconds and get more acceleration anyway!

I think your first impressions of the car will be fantastic and depending on how you intend to drive you may or may not encounter the Jeremy Clarkson "why - why - why are you doing that?" moments!

Both the tech and salesman at Audi were very blank faced when I detailed the behaviour of the car - it was like their God had been found playing with children!

[Passatier3]

Is the Tiptronic like the DSG in VW's or is that S Tronic? Whilst it doesn't excuse the poor performance of the Tiptronic, in my previous Passat with DSG when overtaking I generally knocked it into "manual" so that I was in complete control of the required gear. DSG in the Passat was very good and only required a small amount of movement of the lever to change gear (didn't want the flappy paddles) whereas with the Multitronic it requires quite a lot of movement which feels a little strange at the moment not having used it much/covered many miles.

[EvilPostIt]

Any changes to the engine mapping will invalid the warranty, although they won't know, so unless I break something in the drivetrain, the warranty is going to be OK. The mood seems to be that Audi are fairly sympathetic to tuning - provided you don't ask for a new engine when yours blows up.

Either way the car has lost 17K in 1 year so what the heck.

I can see myself getting one service done at Audi, the 1st one after about 22 months, so I'll ask them specifically not to upgrade the engine mapping. Also if your mapping does get wiped, JD Engineering keep a copy and you send the ECU over to them and it comes back done again - none of this phases me.

Insurance went from £250 to £310 on an Admiral policy 2 drivers (both over 40) 3 cars, lots of no claims bonus and leafy Somerset. Total policy went from 554 to 614, includes Mini Countryman (wife) and new Panda TwinAir (60 mpg run about).

Basically my view is that I have a love hate relationship with the car - it's brilliant, it's quick etc, the family including luggage and skis etc all fit for holidays and touring, it's the best tow car I've ever owned, but I find those Nissan Micra overtakes (and we get that a lot in Somerset and Dorset) are not what they should be.

In trials, the 30-70 pick up when starting from 2nd gear is 4.8 seconds, when starting from E,D or S on the gearbox and having a kickdown and engine pick up, it takes 6s. So there is 1.2 seconds for the box to kick down and the engine pick up - it makes that quick overtake very un-nerving and often aborted. If however you are prepared, so you've been driving in 2nd or 3rd hoping for clear road around the next corner, bam and off you go! Someone in a 245PS stronic should try these tests and let me know the details - please.

Now, link the 1.2s into the nightmare that is picking 1st or 2nd inappropriately and then having another gear change a split second later and the hate starts to build to unacceptable levels.

So I'm off to Holland in a bid to reduce the engine pick component of the 1.2 seconds and get more acceleration anyway!

I think your first impressions of the car will be fantastic and depending on how you intend to drive you may or may not encounter the Jeremy Clarkson "why - why - why are you doing that?" moments!

Both the tech and salesman at Audi were very blank faced when I detailed the behaviour of the car - it was like their God had been found playing with children!

The 1.2 seconds sounds very similar to what i experience in a my current 335d, I think that's torque converters and the small turbo spinning up a little more that contribute to that. Still very much looking forward to Thursday for the "unveiling"...

[retired99]

Had a look at the site you suggested. The torque increase to 800 / 825 nm is impressive.

What's the torques rating of the g'box fitted to a Biturbo?

[jbanfie]

Hi,

Stronic = DSG = PDK = Double Clutch good gear box
Tiptronic = Auto gearbox with slush torque converter, but clutch lock up once slip not required
Multitronic = some kind of CVT (Continously Variable Transmission) with pseudo gears implemented - I think?

Manual is always an option and indeed I use it a lot, but you never quite know (without looking down), whether you are in 6th, 7th or 8th etc so it's difficult to tell how many times to pull the paddle and that in itself takes time!

Sadly all of these ideas are great, but just work arounds for a poorly configured machine.

I'm booked in for a Stage 2 remap in Holland on the 5th June and I've explained the kick down thing to Sven and he said they will think about that too - although I'm not really expecting any joy on that.

[jbanfie]

Had a look at the site you suggested. The torque increase to 800 / 825 nm is impressive.

What's the torques rating of the g'box fitted to a Biturbo?

I think it's 700NM, but that is continous, I'm not sure how often you would actually get peak torque even in aggressive driving and it would only be for a few seconds because you end up travelling at 90mph plus pretty quick! Also, DBLincoln has had his tweaked for quite a while now and hasn't reported any trouble.

[EvilPostIt]

I think it's 700NM, but that is continous, I'm not sure how often you would actually get peak torque even in aggressive driving and it would only be for a few seconds because you end up travelling at 90mph plus pretty quick! Also, DBLincoln has had his tweaked for quite a while now and hasn't reported any trouble.

According to the graph on the JD engineering site you reach 800nm at about 2150 revs.... Unless of course I don't understand the graph, which is also entirely possible.

[jbanfie]

Yes but that would only be with your foot flat in the carpet under ideal conditions - I'm sure it's nothing to worry about!

[retired99]

I think it's 700NM, but that is continous, I'm not sure how often you would actually get peak torque even in aggressive driving and it would only be for a few seconds because you end up travelling at 90mph plus pretty quick! Also, DBLincoln has had his tweaked for quite a while now and hasn't reported any trouble.


Torque for Stage 1 is above 700nm from 2k to 3.5k rpm with peak (700 + about 100nm) occurring from about 2.0k to 2.5k rpm.

Torque for Stage 2 is above 700nm from 2k to 4.0k rpm with peak (700 + about 150nm) occurring from about 2.3k to 2.7k rpm.

Impressive figures and I would guess just the rev range that will get used when demanding max acceleration.

Recognise that the max torque is a continuous rating but have to say I'd be worried about the longevity of the gearbox.

Many modern engine / transmission set ups are configured to deliver max economy / min emissions and comply with noise directives and this makes them less 'friendly' to drive than they could be. I suspect they could be remapped to improve drive-ability by not worrying too much about these constraints and without pushing the limits of the engine / transmission / heat management / brakes etc.

I'd go for a big improvement in drive-ability, and a performance increase well within the limits of the standard car.

[jbanfie]

I share everyone's concern and will discuss the issue with JD Engineering, but I'm sure it's absolutely fine and a new gearbox would be less cost than 20K to change to an S7!

I agree that these cars are set up more for emissions than anything else, which is why they must be so easy to tune!

[retired99]

I share everyone's concern and will discuss the issue with JD Engineering, but I'm sure it's absolutely fine and a new gearbox would be less cost than 20K to change to an S7!

I agree that these cars are set up more for emissions than anything else, which is why they must be so easy to tune!

Not wishing to come across as a harbinger of doom but it's not only the transmission that's affected. These are quite big torque increase and I would imagine they're largely obtained by increasing the amount of fuel injected. This will potentially push up the EGT (exhaust gas temperature) which if it goes too high can have interesting effects on the turbo charger(s) and possibly the engine itself ( pistons get too hot...).

If you're going to talk with JDE suggest you might like to talk about these things. There may well be no problem, but Id ask anyway...

[jbanfie]

Ah this is where you should read through the postings of DBLincoln in the other thread, he reported that JDE know all of this and the key thing is indeed the Exhaust Gas temperature at the DPF upon which they err on the side of caution.

Either way the Engine will be at max power / torque very briefly in the grand scheme of things, I'm never going to travel down an Autobahn at top speed for any length of time, if at all, ever. And, on my head be it!

It's all about risk, which I'm happy with, and I don't have gap insurance either, which would probably also be invalidated if I had!!!!!

[zollaf]

if i was in your situation, i would be taking the long way home after having this work carried out, to include a few hundred miles of flat out autobahn fun. i think you would be silly not to :)
800 nm is a lot of torque. a heck of a lot of torque. in fact, if you wanted to get into demolition, just tie a rope around a house and pull it down :)

[jbanfie]

That's the spirit zollaf, many many people have their cars chipped and don't report problems, I think it's like anything, once you've done it once and have experience, you're not scared of it.

I liked DBLincoln's approach, get the car, straight down the tuners, it's taken me 8 months to pluck up the courage, but I'm in it now!

[zollaf]

a cars a car, you have to do whats what with it. if i had something that could be mapped i would. as it happens mine has replaceablt chips i have just replaced. took me a year as i couldn't find anyone that had done it to see if it was worth it.
at the end of the day if it goes bang then you fix it, its not the end of the world. if theres a problem with a warranty claim you cross that bridge when it happens. if it shreds your gearbox because its got too much torque, you cross that bridge if it happens.

[EvilPostIt]

That's the spirit zollaf, many many people have their cars chipped and don't report problems, I think it's like anything, once you've done it once and have experience, you're not scared of it.

I liked DBLincoln's approach, get the car, straight down the tuners, it's taken me 8 months to pluck up the courage, but I'm in it now!

Like you say many people get their cars chipped these days and its unlikely that you will have any problems especially considering this is being done by a company that do this properly rather than just turning up to upload a new map in 10 mins. These engine maps are done for the global basis not per country and therefore have to deal with all qualities of diesel so it would be based on a worst case which just wouldn't be the case in the UK. In the fine print of the stage 2 remap it even notes that they recommend using BP ultimate or an equivalent. Would be interested to find out your thoughts 1-2 months in and whether JD provide some sort of warranty on their work given how confident they are of the results.

[a8toa6convert]

I think the 4.2tdi A8 has 800Nm from the factory and uses the same ZF 8 speed conventional auto box. Unfortunately, in my experience, it also suffered the same "hitching up its skirts" sensation, and the unnecessary kickdown.

[Passatier3]

Hi,

Stronic = DSG = PDK = Double Clutch good gear box
Tiptronic = Auto gearbox with slush torque converter, but clutch lock up once slip not required
Multitronic = some kind of CVT (Continously Variable Transmission) with pseudo gears implemented - I think?

Manual is always an option and indeed I use it a lot, but you never quite know (without looking down), whether you are in 6th, 7th or 8th etc so it's difficult to tell how many times to pull the paddle and that in itself takes time!

Sadly all of these ideas are great, but just work arounds for a poorly configured machine.

I'm booked in for a Stage 2 remap in Holland on the 5th June and I've explained the kick down thing to Sven and he said they will think about that too - although I'm not really expecting any joy on that.

When in "manual" it shows the pseudo gear in the DIS as it did with my DSG Passat. I've only tried it briefly so far but seem to remember that when knocking the lever into manual it shows the gear in straight away, before changing, but with the paddles (still in auto) the gear isn't indicated until you change up or down. I've already changed my driving style to wafting along unlike the more sporty fashion I drove the Passat!

[EvilPostIt]

Could you detail the scenario in which the kick down happens? I have tried to emulate it but don't seem to suffer it dropping down into unexpected gears. I have now started using the efficiency mode for the most part and when I need to overtake or just speed up in general I pull back on the gear lever to put it into sport and it just takes off.

[jbanfie]

Right,

It's very simple, drive along at 16,17,18,19,20,21 miles (in Sport mode on the box), and floor the throttle fast and hard (right to the floor, past the kick down switch) - you should find that the gearbox shifts down to S1, the revs pick right up, then the gear actually engages and you accelerate - briefly - up to the red line, then the gearbox changes to 2nd.

The reason to do it at different speeds is to see at which point the car chooses 2nd instead of 1st. I think it's around 19, 20 and should be 12/13 if at all.

You get the same effect at around 40mph when the car still picks 2nd, skys the revs again etc.

However, given your car is really new, you might not want to do this for a while - I didn't discover it for a month or so!

Now you can try it, by flooring the throttle, seeing the gear change and then letting off before the engine actually loads up - as discussed there is plenty of time to do so!

I would be very interested in hearing your results

Cheers

Jon