2.5 V6 tdi - help me replace oil retention valves

[Alski2009]

After having had the top-end rebuilt AGAIN on my allroad 2.5 V6 tdi, she now sounds like an old 950cc Ford Fiesta running on 2star. Very tappety. Cold starts in the morning are hard on the hydraulic tappets, it seems to take around 15seconds for them to fill with oil.

Having trawled through the VWAudiForum threads i ordered 2No. Oil Retention Valves Part # 059 103 175 F. The Elsaweb page suggested i replace all the o-rings. I need my car for work so since i've got it all opened up, i might aswell change them too.

Couple of years ago I changed the Oil Breather Filter as per SiliconS's great How-to. Now, to get access to the oil retention valves, can i get away with removing the oil filter bracket or will i need to remove the turbo and EGR valve? Is there anything else i can do since i'm in there?

Thanks gurus.

[Alski2009]

As per the illustration on Elsaweb and a very unhelpful guy at TPS ordered some more bits to tackle this job. Hope it isn't snowing over the weekend.

2No. N 907 408 01 - o-ring (for the oil pipe as per illustration)
1No. 4D0 253 115 D - gasket
1No. 4D0 253 115 E - gasket
1No. 059 131 599 A - gasket

Allegedly it is easier to tackle the oil retention valves if you take the turbo off. Would hate to have to do the job several times so ordered replacement gaskets for either side of the turbo. So why 3 then? Questioned the guy at TPS, he said I needed them.

During the rebuild lost my gasket from the inlet manifold to the EGR valve, so decided to get 2 EGR delete plates off Ebay and bin the whole lot.

I have an evil oil leak at the moment and need to change the rocker covers and re-seal the half moon seal with a dab of silicone. Lots of oil seeping past the injector seals and dribbling down the sides of the engine. Will give her a good service (oil and filter) too.

Also plan to change the rear diff seals. Just hope the drain and fill plugs haven't seized:

2No. 016 409 399 B - seal
2No. 088 409 359 - diff flange screw
4 litres of gear oil - GL5 SAE 90

[Crasher]

On the later cars you have to remove the turbo and the oil filter housing.

[Alski2009]

Thanks for posting back Crasher. Looking at Elsaweb again does the oil filter housing fit on top of the area the retention valves go? Looks like it has been made to take a fair few bolts to snug it down. Is there a paper gasket to go between them?

[Crasher]

They are under the oil filter bracket, the gasket is steel.

[Alski2009]

Brilliant. Thank you Crasher. I guess the steps would be:

Remove injector pipes
Remove EGR valve pipework
Remove turbo
Remove turbo oil feed (don't lose banjo fitting copper washers)
Remove oil filter cap, remove oil filter and suck out oil
Undo bolts and change oil retention valves x2
Then refit in reverse order. Easier said than done, but am I on the right lines?

[Crasher]

Yes, makes it sound easy doesn't it!

[Alski2009]

Yes it does. Having watched other people work on my allroad and the odd bit i have done, i know nothing is easy. Like having to take the wiper arms off to remove the battery? I'm currently working on replacing glowplugs. The only one i had decent access to with a 10mm deep socket was cylinder No.5. Why is everything so bloody difficult?

[Crasher]

You should try working on the 2.7 BT version, a complete nightmare.

[Alski2009]

Ha, how naive i was... I got quite a lot done today. But got stuck trying remove oil filter housing. Quick breakdown of what i did.

- Removed all injector pipes (the engine was still hot and changed glowplugs on cylinder 4,5 + 6. Smeared a dab of copper grease on the threads).
- Removed manifold and EGR valve and disconnected the pump plug. Had to undo the 2 bolts at the back that hold the bracket that holds the 2 black pipes (looks like coolant) to get access to the EGR nuts on the collector pipe).
- Removed turbo intake hose to get access to the bolt for the engine support and removed turbo oil feed (grabbed the 2 copper seals).
- Removed crankcase breather hose (probably won't reconnect this and add an oil catchment can).
- Undid the 3 nuts on the turbo exhaust pipe (catalytic converter) and the 4 nuts on the turbo flange and lifted up the turbo a little to get some clearance.
- Undid the banjo bolt on the injector pump to get some extra space.

Now i can't for the life of me work out how to get the bloody oil filter bracket out. There are 2 thick (20mm diameter) black pipes. 1 of them is loose now i've undone the 2 bolts behind the turbo flange. It looks like i need to either work out where the black pipe goes and what fixes it to the engine or take the injector pump off. Problem is i don't timing tools.

What was i thinking? This is way too complicated a job for me to tackle... Crasher??? Any advice for me?

[ametlib]

Hi,
If that will do it, just take the injection pump out. Mark the position of the pully agaist the campully and the position of the pump-pulley against the plastic cover behind it.
Then remove the 3 allen key screws holding the two pullys together, then you push the alignment- arrow at the tentioner to the cars right side and take the pully off.
Will help you some more tomorrow, is just getting to tired to write English;)

[Alski2009]

Wow. I wasn't expecting a response today. If it wasn't raining outside i would go and get that oil filter bracket out. Apart from changing the suspension to Arnott's i don't have much experience working on my car. I am trying to visualise the parts you have described.

So you start by taking off the black plastic timing belt covers. Right in the middle is the pump flywheel held on by 4 allen bolts and behind that is the pulley. The adjustable pump timing pulley is on the right. These are the 3 bolts, right?

If i mark the pump pulley against the plastic cover behind it and the cam pulley on cyl 4,5+6. Remove the 3 bolts for adjusting the pump timing. Turn the pulley to the right and take the pulley off. Then i can remove the pump.

I guess refitting can be a little tricky, as i need to get the toothed belt in the right position allowing sufficient slack at the other end to slide it back onto the pulley? It is 23:19 and as it's a Sunday tomorrow, i don't want to annoy the neighbours. It'll be 10h00 before i can work on my car. Wish i had a bloody garage! Thanks ametlib.

[Crasher]

Those are the wonderful water pipes, get right in the way they do...

[Alski2009]

Crasher! How can i move the wonderful water pipes out of the way? There's a weird type of pressed metal clip with what looks like globules of spattered weld right next to cylinder 5. Don't tell me i need to take the rocker covers off to undo the water pipe? How would you tackle the oil retention valves? Me and the Mrs are off to Harrogate on Friday. I would prefer to drive up in the allroad which is currently in bits.

[adamss24]

I am enjoying reading this !:firedevil

[Crasher]

They can be awful to get off, on the 2.7 BiT we did over Crimbo we had to take the rear cross pipe off to get the pipes out and rust had built up behind the O rings which made them virtually impossible to get off. The AKE is different in the pipe design but they are still a sod to get out of the way. Which one are you having problems with?

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AKEcoolantpipes_zpsa6f12583.jpg

[ametlib]

I would guess nr 13 ? If removing the IP will do it ( have never changed theese valves) I would have gone for the pump and not toutched the fu"%#¤g pipes.You have already taken the injector pipes off so you are in for a nice bleeding job no matter what.
Taking the IP out/ in is actually a quick fix and if you mark properly you can actually reinstall it within +- 1 degree.

[ametlib]

Crasher! How can i move the wonderful water pipes out of the way? There's a weird type of pressed metal clip with what looks like globules of spattered weld right next to cylinder 5. Don't tell me i need to take the rocker covers off to undo the water pipe? How would you tackle the oil retention valves? Me and the Mrs are off to Harrogate on Friday. I would prefer to drive up in the allroad which is currently in bits.

Friday ?? here in Norway we have barely reached Sunday. You can peel your car into molecules and back before friday....

[ametlib]

Wow. I wasn't expecting a response today. If it wasn't raining outside i would go and get that oil filter bracket out. Apart from changing the suspension to Arnott's i don't have much experience working on my car. I am trying to visualise the parts you have described.

So you start by taking off the black plastic timing belt covers. Right in the middle is the pump flywheel held on by 4 allen bolts and behind that is the pulley. The adjustable pump timing pulley is on the right. These are the 3 bolts, right?

If i mark the pump pulley against the plastic cover behind it and the cam pulley on cyl 4,5+6. Remove the 3 bolts for adjusting the pump timing. Turn the pulley to the right and take the pulley off. Then i can remove the pump.

I guess refitting can be a little tricky, as i need to get the toothed belt in the right position allowing sufficient slack at the other end to slide it back onto the pulley? It is 23:19 and as it's a Sunday tomorrow, i don't want to annoy the neighbours. It'll be 10h00 before i can work on my car. Wish i had a bloody garage! Thanks ametlib.

Sorry, didn't see this post until now.
Almost right, you don't turn the pully to the right and take it off. You use a a screwdriver and push the alignment- arrow at the tentioner against the cars right side. This will release the pressure from the tentioner and make it easy to
remove the adjustable pully. When reinstalling, use the same procedure with the tentioner, makes it easy to get everything placed. Then take off the IP flywheel ( lock it with a drill or something)
Next take the two fuellines off, and last the four allen key screws keeping the pump in place. Underneath the two screws in front there is two small guides. When you take the pump out, wiggle it carefully from side to side and it will
let go. Don't forget to take the el-connection off.

[Alski2009]

The power of the interweb. It's like you guys are stood next to me helping me along.

Had a look this morning. It rained earlier so everything is wet. The back of my legs are killing me from bending over all day. Stupidly set it to Level 4 yeaterday. Caught myself thinking about how I used to moan at dad for taking forever to undo the 1st bolt. I had 2 cups of tea and went in and out of the house so many times without get my hands dirty.

Yes. It's no13. I guess I could get to bolt no12 but the oil filter bracket won't clear with the IP in the way. Looks like it'll have to be the IP pump. Wish me luck.

Next thing I need to buy is the timing tools, long spanners for the viscous fan and a burly breaker bar with the appropriate sized socket to turn the crank for TDC.

[ametlib]

The power of the interweb. It's like you guys are stood next to me helping me along.

Had a look this morning. It rained earlier so everything is wet. The back of my legs are killing me from bending over all day. Stupidly set it to Level 4 yeaterday. Caught myself thinking about how I used to moan at dad for taking forever to undo the 1st bolt. I had 2 cups of tea and went in and out of the house so many times without get my hands dirty.

Yes. It's no13. I guess I could get to bolt no12 but the oil filter bracket won't clear with the IP in the way. Looks like it'll have to be the IP pump. Wish me luck.

Next thing I need to buy is the timing tools, long spanners for the viscous fan and a burly breaker bar with the appropriate sized socket to turn the crank for TDC.

No,No,NO, You don't have to loosen the viscouse fan,don't need any timing tools or anything to turn the crank !!! If you have to buy something, buy a decent vaacum- pump( you will need it later for bleeding )
Now, mark up the pullys and take the pump out.
BTW. My wife is ill today, so I am alone downstairs, looking after the kids. So when they are busy tearing down the house, I seek shelter here in my office. So I guess I can help you all day long, puh.

[Alski2009]

Ok. I'm stuck. I've got bits of masking tape all over the belts and pulleys. Reasonably confident I can get it running again before getting it timed with VCDS.

Pulled the IP flywheel off and the 3 bolts for IP timing pulley. How do I release the IP belt tensioner?

Thanks for your constant help. Couldn't have picked a better day for it :) oops hope your wife gets better.

** The wonders of wifi & the internet! Who'd have thunk it! **

Edit: I found the perfect place to rest my Note 2. Right on top of the power steering fluid cover

[Alski2009]

Sussed it. Undo the allen bolt, and use a 20mm socket.

[ametlib]

Sussed it. Undo the allen bolt, and use a 20mm socket.

Was off guard here, no need to loosen the tentioner, a lot easier not to.

[Alski2009]

No problem. You have your hands full at your end.

Left hand thread on that allen bolt to let off the tension. Glad I didn't lock that 5mm allen bolt with a torque extending pipe. Belts loose now. Lets get that IP off. First things first. Definitely need a hot cuppa before tackling the next phase.

Need to find my Pela pump for priming the IP. Hope my battery is fully charged too

[ametlib]

Well, tentioner is loose. Just take the pump out and fix the retention valves. Then post back BEFORE you touch the tentioner again. This tentioner is tricky and engines have died because of people messing with it.

[Alski2009]

Pumps off. Oil filter bracket is off. Ever so gently loosened the steel gasket off and working out how to get the valves out. Trying to decide on whether or not I should change the oil pipe seals since I'm there.

Tea never tasted sweeter :) thanks ametlib

[ametlib]

Pumps off. Oil filter bracket is off. Ever so gently loosened the steel gasket off and working out how to get the valves out. Trying to decide on whether or not I should change the oil pipe seals since I'm there.

Tea never tasted sweeter :) thanks ametlib

Hmm, guess my coffey would have tasted better if you had left the tentioner in place.
Anyway, the tentioner looks like it's rock solid. Actually it's not, the allen key is actually a nut wich is screwed on a M6 screw going through the tentioner.
Due to this design, the allen key is ment to never be turned clockwise when the tentioner is under load. You knowing that its left-threaded means you did just that....
So, before putting the belt in place, make sure that the allen key is screwed all in (anticlockwice) Then take it gently the half turn back and fit the big nut when pressing the tentioner from back.
After that, never turn the allen key clockwise.
Last, don't overtightn it, from my memory I believe it shoud be torqued with 35 nm ( check it up)
Good luck

[Crasher]

As said, watch that pump belt tensioner, you can think you have it right and it falls to bits into the timing belt and...

[Alski2009]

Only just finished putting it back together again. Nightmare getting the injector pipes back on.

It started raining so i put my phone indoors. Wish I hadn't now so I would have read your message. I had some problems getting the IP timing pulley back on and then the tensioner. So guess what I did? Tightened the allen bolt to set the tension. I spent the weekend working on it and can't risk destroying the engine. I will use the Mrs car to go to work tomorrow.

I flattened the battery getting it going and got a jump from the Corolla. Gutsy little alternator. It was difficult to see diesel spraying out of the injectors in the dark. Oh well. Got it started.

Going to take a shower and think about how I did up the tensioner. Will get an early night and tackle it tomorrow. Going through it step-by-step in my head. One good thing to report, the tappetty rattle has gone.

[ametlib]

Only just finished putting it back together again. Nightmare getting the injector pipes back on.

It started raining so i put my phone indoors. Wish I hadn't now so I would have read your message. I had some problems getting the IP timing pulley back on and then the tensioner. So guess what I did? Tightened the allen bolt to set the tension. I spent the weekend working on it and can't risk destroying the engine. I will use the Mrs car to go to work tomorrow.

I flattened the battery getting it going and got a jump from the Corolla. Gutsy little alternator. It was difficult to see diesel spraying out of the injectors in the dark. Oh well. Got it started.

Going to take a shower and think about how I did up the tensioner. Will get an early night and tackle it tomorrow. Going through it step-by-step in my head. One good thing to report, the tappetty rattle has gone.

Great job!! You did just right, setting the tention is done by turning the allen bolt anticlockwise. Before you start the engine again, make sure that the pump belt is not rubbing against the cambelt pully.( Is what
usually happens if you killed the tentioner)

[Alski2009]

Left the car at home today. Thinking about how to tackle the tensioner after work.

Looking at the Sealey timing tools. There's a large socket with a cutaway to access the allen bolt. I can use my go through socket right?

So pull the plastic covers. Mark everything with masking tape again. Undo the IP tensioner by turning the allen bolt clockwise. Then tighten the 20mm bolt till it is snug and then tighten the allen bolt (anti-clockwise) to 35Nm till the belt is taut?

[Crasher]

I will not touch that tensioner without a 3078, bad experience that cost me three hours and a new tensioner but could have been far worse. Thing is, I was using the 3078 at the time! We have one of these to start doing today.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/3078tool_zpsa81bb3e4.jpg

[Alski2009]

Crasher. Can you give me an idea of what i need to do? I am properly worried about that tensioner.

Just to recap. All I did was turn the allen bolt clockwise to back off the tensioner and once the pulleys and belt was inplace, turned the same allen bolt anticlockwise to tension the belt. Only tightened it up just a bit past the point where the belt was tight and didn't touch the big nut.

Ametlib explained what it's comprised of. I'm sure it'll make sense when it's infront of me.

[Crasher]

The trouble is you are doing something I have never done and that is re-using one that has been slackened off so its hard for me to say as if you have started to wind the stud out of the tensioner you can run into the same problem I did with a brand new one. We are just taking an AllRoad apart at the moment and I will have a play with the tensioner later to see how it feels being re-used.

[ametlib]

Left the car at home today. Thinking about how to tackle the tensioner after work.

Looking at the Sealey timing tools. There's a large socket with a cutaway to access the allen bolt. I can use my go through socket right?

So pull the plastic covers. Mark everything with masking tape again. Undo the IP tensioner by turning the allen bolt clockwise. Then tighten the 20mm bolt till it is snug and then tighten the allen bolt (anti-clockwise) to 35Nm till the belt is taut?

Hi there, you are not supposed to tighten the allen key! Its only purpose is to set the correct tention ( is done anticlockwise) When the two " arrows" is aligned, you tighten the big nut with 35 nm!!!
In fact you shoudn't have loosened the tentioner at all, all you had to do was pushing the inner "arrow" gently against the cars right side. That would have released the belt tention and you could take the belt out and in again with
the tentioner in place. Anyway, if that was the only mistake you did, it was actually not bad at all;)

[ametlib]

I will not touch that tensioner without a 3078, bad experience that cost me three hours and a new tensioner but could have been far worse. Thing is, I was using the 3078 at the time! We have one of these to start doing today.
Holy chickenshit, I'd just realized that you dont know how to set the tention ( not you Crasher, just using your pic to show how to) look at the pic, go from the allen key, half way to the top and a little to the right. The black thing is one of
the "arrows" The other arrow will follow the mowement you do when you turn the allen key anticlockwise. When the black arrow at the pic and the inner arrow is aligned, the tention is right.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/3078tool_zpsa81bb3e4.jpg

He, he something vent wrong here, please read in the grey field above the pic

[ceilidhalfie]

Been following this thread. I think the procedure in Dynamically Adjusting Timing will help. The first part of the mechanical bit assumes the pointers on the tensioner are not aligned. Procedure describes how to correct this and then correctly set the IP timing belt. (Apologies if am I off-beam here, and does anyone know how to upload a pdf file?? Have had to split procedure into the follow 3 images:). Hope it helps:

192961929719298

[ametlib]

Absolutely ceilidhalfie, as they say, a pic can tell more than 50 Norwegian words! Thanks.
Alski, the good news is, if you're afraid you tortured the tentioner a bit too much, it's rather easy to replace.

[Alski2009]

Firstly. Big thank you to all of you for taking the time to help me. It started raining at 2pm yesterday and it's still raining now 9h40am, so I don't know when i can take a look at the tensioner. Hope i can grab 20mins tonight to check the belt and the tensioner.

Ceilidhalfie - the jpegs helped immensely.
Ametlib - got it now.
Crasher - can you let me know how it goes today with the AR's tensioner?

So just to recap. The allen bolt is only used to set the tension so the inner metal triangle lines up with the fixed outer black triangle. If you're unable to set the correct tension then follow the steps in Ceilidhalfie's jpegs. Once it is done then tighten the big 20mm bolt to 35Nm. As always, there's probably way more to it than that. Fingers crossed the rain holds off for a big after work.

[Doctle Odd]

I recently discovered that if you add images to microsoft publisher, then save as pdf that works ok. Probably easier ways tho

[ceilidhalfie]

So just to recap. The allen bolt is only used to set the tension so the inner metal triangle lines up with the fixed outer black triangle. If you're unable to set the correct tension then follow the steps in Ceilidhalfie's jpegs. Once it is done then tighten the big 20mm bolt to 35Nm. As always, there's probably way more to it than that. Fingers crossed the rain holds off for a big after work.

Belt and braces here - just remember, if you are going to use the 22mm bolt on the ip shaft to adjust timing, you are only using it to move the belt a tad - don't go slacken or over tighten the ip bolt!

[adamss24]

Pump belt tensioners have a nasty habit of snapping the bolt in which case the tensioner often falls inside the cambelt area...as Chrasher pointed, it's not good for the belt... Done a few and most aftermarket tensioners snapped- they were Littens tensioners made for aftermarket cambelt kits, the genuine audi ones don't usualy snap !

[ametlib]

Pump belt tensioners have a nasty habit of snapping the bolt in which case the tensioner often falls inside the cambelt area...as Chrasher pointed, it's not good for the belt... Done a few and most aftermarket tensioners snapped- they were Littens tensioners made for aftermarket cambelt kits, the genuine audi ones don't usualy snap !

Jepp, Litens 979680, made in Canada. They can actually be bent too, making the pumpbelt rubbing against the cambelt pully until some **** happens. Don't buy them

[Crasher]

Earlier I released the old tensioner half a turn on the lock nut and backed it off clockwise with a 6-mm hex key until it was slack, then I tried to re-tension it and got near to the two markers aligning and felt hard resistance but it was still not aligned so I pushed it a bit harder and it suddenly failed and would not do anything in either direction, basically it broke internally very easily, felt like the stud had come undone inside. I had to go then and so I will have a look at the tensioner itself tomorrow but now I will confidently say, "never re-tension an old tensioner"

[adamss24]

I did not have any issues reusing the old tensionerS, by all means i preffer to use the old ones as oposed to a new one that comes with new cambelt kits ! Thought that i don't tension the tensioner enough so they rather get slack than break but every one i tighten too much it broke after a while !

[Alski2009]

Got a couple of hours yesterday evening working on my car under torchlight. Pulled the timing covers off and checked the IP tensioner expecting it to be hanging on by a single thread and the belt worn from rubbing on the camshaft pulley. I was so surprised to see the 2 timing marks (both silver on this version) perfectly lined up. More by fluke than anything else. At first i couldn't quite believe it. I daren't take it off again. Next time i take it off i will replace it with a genuine one from Audi.

It felt quite solid when backing it off to take the IP off and re-tensioning it again. I couldn't see any manufacturer's stamps, clearly it isn't a genuine one, it was bought in the SKF kit from EuroCarParts a little while ago in the timing belt kit.

I have a problem...

Here's a list the things i did:
- Changed the glowplugs on cyl 4,5+6
- Took off the long manifold link that feeds both banks of the vee
- Removed EGR valve and pipes and blanked off the hole on the collector pipe and the long manifold next to the IP and blocked the hose to the EGR valve
- Undid the IP plug and took the IP and pipes off
- Replaced Cyl 1,2,3 injector pipes (the original ones were rubbing)
- Took off the air box and the MAF to get access to the turbo hose and bracket for turbo oil feed
- Loosened turbo intake hose (2 jubilee clips)
- Undid 3 13mm nuts on the turbo downpipe and 4 12mm nuts on the flange to get some wiggle room and removed the turbo oil feed
- Pulled out the oil filter bracket and changed the oil retention valves
- The green oring on the turbo oil drain pipe was broken, replaced it with a one i had lying around
- Disconnected expansion tank connector and moved for access to injectors

It feels like i have either a boost leak or a vacuum leak. It doesn't rev as well as it did before and has more of a distinctive 'diesel crack' sound. I plan to check the MAF connections, anti-shudder valve, vacuum hoses and check for fault codes after work tonight.

[ametlib]

The engine will sound a bit harsher at idle when the egr is gone. Maybe a good idea to add " check timing with VCDS" to your list. Other than that, nice work ! I did really expect you to have some trouble with bleeding the pump and get the engine
back to life again;)

[Alski2009]

That pump was a bloody nightmare to prime. I couldn't find my hose clamps to lock the hose either side of the diesel filter. Probably killed my started motor in the process and flattened my battery, but had a little Corolla to give it a boost. Definitely can't recommend bleeding injectors in the dark. Thinking back i could run a 4W 12v MR16 LED spotlight off the battery as a less directional light. The slight strobing effect will freeze the droplets of diesel in the air. Darn sight easier than holding a AA Maglite in my mouth again.

Yes, forgot to add that to my list. Hope this evening is dry and my cheapo Ebay lead works.

The 2.5 V6 TDI is an old technology engine right? There's no closed loop monitoring of the EGR valve? So apart from sounding a little harsher at idle, taking longer to warm up and using a bit more fuel when it's cold, it shouldn't go into a state where the ECU goes into limp mode? Saw Diffas' images when his turbo imploded and he had removed the EGR altogether.

[ametlib]

Limp mode ? Cant really answer your question because I don't know. Whay I know is that neighter removing or "deleting" the EGR by VCDS caused any problems with my engines ( afb and ake's )
I wouldn't worry to much about the turbo, when the turbo really boost, the egr is asleep anyway.

[Alski2009]

It was still light when i got home. I checked for boost leaks and disconnected or chafed cables. Added a little bit of RTV silicone around the vacuum plug in the bulkhead, the one with the little green cap. Does anyone know the part number for it?

Re-seated the MAF plug, the anti-shudder valve, the coolant temperature (green) plug and a few other plugs. Listened to the end of the EGR and turbo hoses to make sure they worked. No change. It pulls a little better, probably in my head, but woefully down on power.

Dug out my Ebay lead and fired up Vag Com and pulled out the following readings after waiting for the coolant temp to hit 85degrees C.

Block 004
766/min Engine speed
0.4degATDC Spec Start
0.8degATDC Actual Start
100.2% Cold start valve

Block 005
766/min Engine Speed
20.4 mg/str Starting Quantity
0.8degBTDC Start of injection
86.9degC Coolant temperature

Block 010
392.5 mg/str Mass Air Flow (actual)
999.6 mbar Atmospheric Pressure
989.4mbar Boost Pressure
0.0% Accel Pedal Pos. (G79)

Block 011
766/min Engine Speed
1071.0 mbar Spec Intake pressure
989.4 mbar Actual Intake pressure
85.2% N75 duty cycle

Block 012
0.39 mg/str [cyl3] Injection Quantity Deviation
1.25 mg/str [cyl1] Injection Quantity Deviation

Block 014
0.31 mg/str [cyl6] Injection Quantity Deviation
0.31 mg/str [cyl4] Injection Quantity Deviation
0.24 mg/str [cyl5] Injection Quantity Deviation

Block 015
766/min Engine Speed
5.0mg/str Injection Quantity Actual
0.80 l/h Fuel Consumption
0.0mg/str Injection Quantity Specified

Block 019
271/min Engine Speed
0.5degBTDC Actual start of injection
20.8CF Qty adj valve act time
26.1degC Fuel Temp

For some reason my version has been deactivated. Have requested a serial number. So i couldn't use the TDI Timing checker.

I should have revved the engine to the required RPM for the tests to pull out the correct readings. Is something wrong with the No.2 injector? Why isn't there a reading for it? And why is the No.1 injector have to inject so much diesel?

I need to spend a little time working out what it is i am looking at.

[ametlib]

Hi,
block 004 shows the timing is within spec. -2 +- 2 degrees. In block 011 I would have expected a bit higher actual boost ( especial since you removed the egr) Block 010 MAF readings a little at the low side ? ( with EGR gone) witch color is your maf-housing ? )
Block 13 & 14 shows the injector imbalances, using the needlelift as a reference ( cyl 3) Spec is +- 1,5. Injector at cyl 1 may be partly clogged.
Take her out for a spin and give some throttle, then observe block 011 actual intake pressure, you shoud expect a readind of at least 2000. ( I'm not convinced you will though)

[Alski2009]

** I think the server is dying **

Thanks Ametlib. That's what i thought looking at the boost readings. I must have a boost leak, but couldn't hear any whistling sounds.

It took a while to get to 85degreesC, and couldn't find any soot marks anywhere. Will maybe try tightening the EGR blanking plates again. The exhaust smells very rich. Like an old diesel bus and started to sting my eyes.

I could hear a slight tappety sound coming from cyl 4,5,6. What are the torque specs for the oil retention valves. When i took them off it felt like they were only finger tight. So i did the new ones up the same. I hope i don't have to repeat the process again.

Maybe i should get those timing tools and learn how to set the timing. I have the 1.9tdi rubber snub mount to fit aswell.

The MAF housing is aluminium. I can't remember if it is a Hitachi version. Will take her out for a bit of a thrash and report back. Do you think the MAF is faulty?

[Peter D]

20Nm and 15Nm for the banjo bolt. Why you take on all this work without a manual I am at a loss to understand. Regards Peter

[ametlib]

No, don't think your maf is faulty ( is just that I've seen them all the way up 440-450 with egr blanked off) Torqued to fingertight???:biglaugh: You have balls!! What I think is, your turbo ain't boosting, but that's just a guess.
BTW, do you know the engine code, AKE ?
BTW2, Your turbo isn't exacly improving the airflow here, so I would guess that explaines the ( maybe) little low MAF readings.

[ametlib]

** I think the server is dying **

Thanks Ametlib. That's what i thought looking at the boost readings. I must have a boost leak, but couldn't hear any whistling sounds.

It took a while to get to 85degreesC, and couldn't find any soot marks anywhere. Will maybe try tightening the EGR blanking plates again. The exhaust smells very rich. Like an old diesel bus and started to sting my eyes.

I could hear a slight tappety sound coming from cyl 4,5,6. What are the torque specs for the oil retention valves. When i took them off it felt like they were only finger tight. So i did the new ones up the same. I hope i don't have to repeat the process again.

Maybe i should get those timing tools and learn how to set the timing. I have the 1.9tdi rubber snub mount to fit aswell.

The MAF housing is aluminium. I can't remember if it is a Hitachi version. Will take her out for a bit of a thrash and report back. Do you think the MAF is faulty?

I am sorry, but I just have to comment at this.
When you at last, after two days in the rain, in the winter, in the dark with a torchlight, reaches the hardest screw to get at, you torqued it to........finger tight !!!!:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:
Mate, I just love your style !!!!:biglaugh::biglaugh: Thank you, havent laught so much since I saw a picture of a lovely 4wd fiat ( also at this forum, I think)

[Alski2009]

Pah. Excuses excuses. All i can say is, I was annoyed, I still am annoyed, and slightly exagerated the whole looseness of the bolt. Typing on Andriod touch screen phone isn't fun and must remember this is a public forum.

Spun the shaft of the extension till it was tight and gave it a snug down.

Will pull the inlet hose off the turbo and see if the vanes are turning. Hmm. I am still annoyed, so better choose my words carefully. I pulled the vacuum hoses off and could feel it was sucking air. Question. How much does the turbo linkage move when you first fire up the engine? I measured it before and after and it hadn't moved a millimetre.

Yes, it is an AKE engine.

[Alski2009]

** in response to Peter D's post #54**

Usually Chris sorts my car for me. I needed my car to go away tomorrow (cancelled hotel reservations now). I think he's either on holiday or i've p!ssed him off.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't have the knowledge and experience you guys have, just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

[ametlib]

I think you are doeing just fine. The actuator arm shoud move all the way to the stopscrew when you start the engine. Thats your fault. Don't pull anything yet, hook up your vacuumpump to the actuater and se if it moves.

[Alski2009]

Applogies for the rant. Mrs is moaning like crazy. She was looking forward to going away. Lord knows how many shopping trips I have to go on to make ammends.

Thanks. Will get that Pela pump on the turbo and see if the actuator arm moves. Thanks ametlib

[Alski2009]

Spent all weekend on it again. Pela pump on the turbo pulls the actuator up. But when I start the car it doesn't move at all. Activated VCDS Lite with ebay cable = no TDI Timing. The pump timing was out. Just by sheer blooded mindedness got the pump in the right place with no fault codes.

Checked everything for boost leaks but the turbo isn't boosting.

[Crasher]

Check the integrity of the vacuum system at the servo feed pipe take off by using the Pella to suck and then trace the vacuum leak I suspect you have.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Crasher. Pulled the hose off the actuator and could hear it sucking air. Seemed a little weak. But not having checked when it was working don't really know. Will do as suggested and pull off hoses at various points to check the integrity of the system.

Could I have disturbed something inside the turbo when lifting it up? I only held it by the alluminium housing.

[Alski2009]

Pulled the airbox off for some more room and undid the turbo intake hose. EGR valve and airbox hoses plugged as before. Connected the Pela pump in at the T-junction which would be Vac In and the actuator moves. Looks like the majority of 90degree rubber elbows are a little brittle. Will try to re-attach everything.

[Alski2009]

Sorted. Strange rubber hose that connects to a T-piece underneath the coolant expansion tank and doesn't appear to go anywhere. Spent 2 weeks on this so far. Almost wish I hadn't. Thanks to all of you for your help.

Learnt a lesson. Going to buy a copy of Etka tonight and to label everything I dismantle or remove.

[Crasher]

For future reference, just pull off the 3-mm hose from the servo pipe and suck on it, if you can pull air track the leak and a Pella type pump is very useful for this as is a smoke tester.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/4BAKEvachoses_zps8d1866fd.jpg

1 - To breather connection on air cleaner housing
2 - Vacuum hose to vacuum reservoir/vacuum pump
3 - Vacuum hose from N75 solenoid to vacuum unit for charge pressure control on turbo
4 - Brake servo
5 - Vacuum reservoir in front left wheel housing beneath liner
6 - Non-return valve. Note installation position (light side/dark side) - as shown in illustration
7 - Vacuum pump
8 - To solenoid valve N239 for variable intake manifold flap change over valve
9 - Vacuum hose from EGR valve N18 to mechanical EGR valve
10 - Solenoid valve N75 for charge pressure control
11 - Solenoid valve N18 for exhaust gas recirculation valve

[ametlib]

Spent all weekend on it again. Pela pump on the turbo pulls the actuator up. But when I start the car it doesn't move at all. Activated VCDS Lite with ebay cable = no TDI Timing. The pump timing was out. Just by sheer blooded mindedness got the pump in the right place with no fault codes.

Checked everything for boost leaks but the turbo isn't boosting.

Glad to see you fixed this.
About checking the timing , you don't need the TDI graph to do that.
In basic settings 4, the ecu alters the timing between 15 degree advance and fully retarded. Just read the timing at fully retarded ( 100 %) Spec is -2+-2 degrees.
Infact, you can even check it in measuring blocks. If cold start valve/ advance solenoid at idle,engine temp above 78 degrees, is showing 100 %, just read the actual timing.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Crasher. That illustration really helps. I need to find the hose with the non-return valve (part no. 6) which is probably hanging down alongside the engine. Sigh what a plonker. I have a bunch of fault codes, ABS controller (the infamous 3 warning lights), Levelling sensor, ESP, Left and Right rear doors (interior light doesn't illuminate when i open the right rear door). I suspect the pump timing.

The TDI Timing tool for the 2.5 TDI V6 has been disabled in my version of VCDS-Lite when using a 3rd party lead. Is there an alternative way i can get the timing spot on without buying the genuine lead fron Gendan? I have tried to find a post where someone suggested plotting a graph from the readings which is, allegedly, what TDI Timing does for you anyway.

I have also read a post on the internet about timing the VP44. The 55% refers to the position of all of the marks in the graph. Can't for the life of me find it.

I took the car out for a drive last night. The surge of torque was instantly satisfying. The EGR delete has noticeably improved pick-up. All sins were 'almost' forgiven until i wound up the turbo and flew on to the A40. The ABS, levelling suspension and ESP warning lights flashed up. After that i pulled off as soon as i could, restarted the engine a couple of times and had to limp home.

[Alski2009]

Glad to see you fixed this.
About checking the timing , you don't need the TDI graph to do that.
In basic settings 4, the ecu alters the timing between 15 degree advance and fully retarded. Just read the timing at fully retarded ( 100 %) Spec is -2+-2 degrees.
Infact, you can even check it in measuring blocks. If cold start valve/ advance solenoid at idle,engine temp above 78 degrees, is showing 100 %, just read the actual timing.

Thanks Ametlib. This is going to sound retarded, but in my simple mind, does one simply minus 15 from the timing figures in the measuring blocks? I couldn't see anything in the values that looked like anything people had posted on the interweb. Block 2 changes from Late to Early, the engine note changes, and the pump timing changes. I vaguely remember the readings in Block 3 changing from 6.8 to 15.3 and in Block 4 cold start valve = 100.2%.

And if it needs adjusting you turn the pump pulley clockwise to advance and anti-clockwise to retard?

[Crasher]

DYNAMICALLY CHECKING AND ADJUSTING COMMENCEMENT OF INJECTION

Note:- The commencement of injection must always be checked after renewing the toothed belt or loosening the injection pump bolts or toothed belt sprockets, and adjusted if necessary

Check toothed pump belt tension. The marks on the tensioner should be aligned. If the marks are not aligned, tension toothed belt

Read measured value block “function 08”, Display group 07, engine running at idling speed

Check readout in display zone 4 (coolant temperature)

Specification: at least 85 °C

Do not continue the test until the coolant has reached the specified temperature.

Start Basic Setting “function 04”, Display group 04, engine running at idling speed.

The display will switch from advanced to retarded approx every 15 seconds

When it is retarded, the COI can be checked

Check display in display zone 4. Specification: 100%

Observe display in display zone 2. Specification: “retarded”

Check display in display zone 3 Specification: 2° ATDC ± 2°, ideally 1.8° >2.2° ATDC

The VCDS screen will show it as -2° BTDC

If the specification is out of tolerance, turn off the engine

Slacken camshaft sprocket securing bolts. Do NOT loosen the 22-mm centre nut for injection pump sprocket. Otherwise this would alter the basic setting of the injection pump. The setting cannot be re-adjusted with workshop equipment

Apply ring spanner (22 mm) to pump nut and turn slightly: Anticlockwise to retard commencement of injection clockwise to advance commencement of injection, a very small movement makes a huge change in the COI


Re-tighten camshaft sprocket securing bolts to 20 Nm


Check commencement of injection again

[Alski2009]

Thanks Crasher. I can appreciate how frustrating it must be for you and for everyone reading this thread.

So I need to warm up the car till coolant temp is 85°, then adjust the pump by slackening off the 3 allen bolts on the pump timing pulley and slowly, after removing the counter balance, tweak the pump to adjust the COI.

I am looking to repeat this process until I see retarded in Zone 2 and in Zone 3 -2°BTDC.

Got way too much on at work to leave early. Looks like I'll be working in the dark again..

[ceilidhalfie]

Thanks Crasher. I can appreciate how frustrating it must be for you and for everyone reading this thread.

So I need to warm up the car till coolant temp is 85°, then adjust the pump by slackening off the 3 allen bolts on the pump timing pulley and slowly, after removing the counter balance, tweak the pump to adjust the COI.

I am looking to repeat this process until I see retarded in Zone 2 and in Zone 3 -2°BTDC.

Got way too much on at work to leave early. Looks like I'll be working in the dark again..

Just in case you are now getting "punch drunk", you warm the car up (quickest by driving round the block) to get temp on or above 85% TO DYNAMICALLY CHECK THE TIMING as Crasher describes. You can then LET THE ENGINE COOL DOWN to allow you to mechanically adjust the timing (without burning your fingers!) as Crasher again describes.
Once done, then repeat the dynamic check to see the results of your efforts.
If still out of spec, repeat the above.

The ABS, ESP and Level lights - are they coming on intermittently? When you switch engine off/on, do they disappear? Do they return again soon after? If so, looks like your brake light switch (under the brake in driver's footwell) is faulty. Cheap part new and easy to replace. Happened on my 2002 AKE Allroad Auto - but cannot remember if VCDS throws this up as a possible cause of the faults or if I (most likely) found out on the web that this was a possible solution. ELSA would tell you from the fault codes.

[ametlib]

If the timing is too advanced, the dash will light up when the engine warms up and the ECU tries to retard the timing...

[ametlib]

Thanks Ametlib. This is going to sound retarded, but in my simple mind, does one simply minus 15 from the timing figures in the measuring blocks? I couldn't see anything in the values that looked like anything people had posted on the interweb. Block 2 changes from Late to Early, the engine note changes, and the pump timing changes. I vaguely remember the readings in Block 3 changing from 6.8 to 15.3 and in Block 4 cold start valve = 100.2%.

And if it needs adjusting you turn the pump pulley clockwise to advance and anti-clockwise to retard?

Ok, lets assume the correct reading is 6,8 degrees. Loosen the 3 allen key screws at the adjustable pump pully, then turn the pully 4,5 mm( measured at the outer rim) anticlockwise and torque ( no, no, not finger tight, but 20nm:biglaugh: )

[Alski2009]

Working on the car again. Thanks to all of you. I think the pump pulley moved a bit during re-installation or slipped during re-installation of the belt and tensioner.

in Block 004 basic settings.
zone 1 - 835/min
zone 2 - late
zone 3 - 2.8deg ATDC
zone 4 - 100.2%

so i need more adjustment on the pulley right? but i have hit the end of the slot

[ceilidhalfie]

zone 2 - late
zone 3 - 2.8deg ATDC
zone 4 - 100.2%

I read the above that your IP timing is:

Retarded 2.8 deg

ie. Within spec of retarded 2degress +- 2 degrees. Ie. zone 3 does not show negative numbers. Or am I wrong???

[Alski2009]

You see. Why couldn't anyone just say that! Or is it me? Shaking my head in shame.

Ceilidhalfie - that makes perfect sense now. So the pump timing is +/- 2.8°. So I can still try to aim for +/- 1.8°.

Properly chuffed with that. Took her out for a blast. That surge of torque is so addictive. Looking in the rear view mirror there's very little soot.

Honestly cannot thank you guys enough.

You know what the bad news is? Booody tappetty sound on the over-run. Atleast I know what to do next time. Hangs my head in shame...

[ceilidhalfie]

Ceilidhalfie - that makes perfect sense now. So the pump timing is +/- 2.8°. So I can still try to aim for +/- 1.8°?



NO! Your Ip timing IS 2.8 degrees RETARDED. Bang on spec is 2degrees retarded. So a timing reading of 0 or 4 degrees RETARDED is just within spec Can't remember now, but I think you were adjusting to retard and now you are at the buffers of the sprocket. So you could go the other way and advance the timing a bit. If you are a sadist you could go all the way and see how far the IP gets advanced!


One point to note, if your IP belt is new, it will stretch a bit as you increase the mileage and will retard slightly the timing. I think the experts on this forum recommend the timing is slightly advanced of 2 degrees retarded (if that males sense!).

[Alski2009]

Ok. So I will advance the pump a tiny bit from 2.8° late to 1.8-2° late. This will hopefully allow me a little room to adjust the timing as the belt stretches.

All of the belts, pulleys and idlers were changed last summer when the waterpump core plug was leaking.

Going to take the allroad to work today. Big thanks to all of you for your much valued assistance.

[Alski2009]

Sh!t. Waited for a break in the bad weather to adjust the timing. The IP tensioner had slackened off my a few mm. Marked everything up with masking tape and went tighten it up and it felt like it was about to shear so stopped. Reached over to mark it with some masking tape and nudged the allen key and it has slackened right off. Tried to tension it up, but it goes a little of the way and turning the allen key results in no extra tension. it feels like it has pulled out of the bolt. Can i do anything to fix it? i need my car for the weekend. Going to Harrogate

[Alski2009]

Going to attempt to Dremel out a chunk of a 21mm socket. Kinda flying by the seat of my pants now. Fingers crossed

[Alski2009]

Crap! The allen bolt sheared off. The tensioner is held on by the swing arm and I have the rest of the allen bolt with the 21mm nut in my hand. I need a new tensioner. But how do I go about fitting it? Still waiting for my copy of Etka :(

[Crasher]

As I said, this is what happens when you try and re-use them and exactly what happened when I experimented on the one I tried for you last week. You will now have to pull the front of the car off and strip down to the timing belt so you can fit a new tensioner as I have found it impossible to change it without taking the front support casting off.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Crasher. I can't believe it's only good for 1 go. Found the old genuine VAG one in my SKF timing belt box. Part No. 059 109 243L made by Litens in Canada.

Looking at the cranked allen bolt it looks so weedy, maybe aluminised steel. The rest of it is so burly, looks like my old EBC brake discs, maybe surface treated steel.

Permission to shout expletive(s). Be a good time to get the timing tools and auxiliary belt tensioner and do the whole bloody lot on one go. Will prepare everything and do it slowly and carefully. I don't even know where to start! $@*£!

[Crasher]

PM me your email and I will furnish you with many sheets of paper containing words of wisdom or you can use the web Elsa thing.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Crasher. Bought the timing tools off Ebay and 2No 32mm cranked spanners for the viscous fan. Will cane the laser printer at work in preparation for the weekend. Is there anything else I need? Ringing TPS tomorrow for the IP belt tensioner, power steering bracket. Have been looking at how big a job it is to replace all of the bushes without the tool to shear the bolt.

[ametlib]

Sorry Crasher, have to disagree. I have replaced this tentioner, not once, but many times without pulling anything else than the pumpbelt and the adjustable pump pully.
It looks impossible, but it can be wiggled out against the cars left side.
Alski, at least give it a try before you tear your car apart.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Ametlib. After struggling for almost 15mins to get the IP timing pulley back on last time, I now mark everything with strips of masking tape and a fine Rotring pen. Today after work I planned to mark the pump, remove the injection pipes, pull the pump off, already borrowed a puller to remove the cam pulley (after putting the front of the car in service position and removing the viscous fan, etc).

BUT, if i can get away with wiggling the tensioner out from where it is without disturbing anything else then i will be pleased. Will pop to EuroCarParts with my recepit after to get a replacement. I know removing it won't be that easy. Especially if Crasher has already tried. I may draw it up in CAD so i can atleast work out how Ametlib removed it. The locating pin for the swing arm looks like a major problem along with the part of the plastic timing belt cover that protrudes out just far enough to block the tensioner!

By the way, since Ametlib and others have been so open about their heritage, etc. Not that it matters, but I am Chinese. We are still celebrating Chinese New Year till the 24th Feb. Dad was/is an engineer. His claim to fame was manufacturing the afterburner nozzles for the prototype Harrier jumpjet. Dad taught me from a young age to be considerate of mechanical sympathy. If i'm having trouble undoing a nut/bolt, chances are next time it'll be even worse, so replace it when necessary. It's common sense, right? You can ask Chris, i am slowly rebuilding my AKE allroad from the smallest rusty bolt up.

Shortcuts are great, especially from the right people with the right level of experience. But for people with zero experience? I rebuilt my old XR2 engine with 280degree Piper Cams, re-jetted Weber carbs, Magnex exhaust and Spax suspension, but the V6 tdi is in a different league. Which is why your comments and posts are invaluable. I really appreciate your help. Lets not break out the bubbly just yet. Still got a long way to go.

[Crasher]

I may draw it up in CAD so i can atleast work out how Ametlib removed it

His claim to fame was manufacturing the afterburner nozzles for the prototype Harrier jumpjet

I wish I could do that sort of thing, I had a play with some CAD programs and I could not seem to get going.

One thing that confuses me through, the P1127 and Kestrel FGA.1 didn't have afterburners (the Harrier didn't) due to the design of the vectored thrust rear hot nozzles. He must have worked on the BS100 engine that was for the P.1154 (what WAS going to be called the Harrier), another world beating British jet cancelled by the Labour government of Harold Wilson, so we bought American aircraft and the British aviation industry died in one move-result!

[Alski2009]

CAD is easy. If i can do it, anyone can. If you need a taster and need another project you can download DraftSight and get yourself AutoCAD for Dummies. DraftSight almost does everything AutoCAD LT does for free. If i can work out the science behind making up equal length tubular exhaust gas manifolds for the 2.5 V6, i will draw it in CAD, check the fitment and have it made. Here's a tip. Start drawing in 2D plan. And get used to assigning things to different layers from the start. Do not draw everything on Layer 0.

Crasher. You made me smile. Googled P.1154 and read all the stats on that glorious engine. Will print off some pages, dad doesn't get on with a paperless office.

I have listened to my ol' dad talk about parts he made for jet engines and other things for decades. Obviously rapid prototyping either in wax or with 3D printers didn't exist back then, so they had to make everything from scratch without fancy auto-feed machines. I will tell dad the next time i see him and make him a cup of engineer's tea (boiling hot, 4 sugars, bitter despite the sugar, dark from the tannin with a drop of milk) and we will toast you. Thank you for posting, it will make my dad very happy to see in print what he had contributed towards.

[Alski2009]

It has got to be -5 degrees outside. Brr. Had a look at the IP tensioner and used the swing arm bit as a lever and popped the bleedin' thing off. Thanks Ametlib. Now. How did you say you got it out and how did you replace it? Of course the IP belt and IP timing pulley are off. If the aluminium bracket had a chunk of the gusset removed it looks like that area is deep enough for the new tensioner and allen bolt as it left the factory.

The light has gone and I don't fancy holding a AA Maglite in my mouth. Allegedly, the weather will improve tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

[Crasher]

I will have to get into CAD as I see 3D printers THE emerging technology of this century, the possibilities for this technology are simply boundless. I read of one company that is looking at PRINTING pistons with rings, rods and bearings already assembled. I see the day coming that every house has a 3D printer and you buy sacks of different materials like we buy printer ink now. Then people like me who are into plastic modelling kits will be able to download the kit and print the sprue's or individual parts out. There are so many potential uses my imagination can't see them. Imagine being able to print assembled and functioning machines!

[kite]

I will have to get into CAD as I see 3D printers THE emerging technology of this century, the possibilities for this technology are simply boundless. I read of one company that is looking at PRINTING pistons with rings, rods and bearings already assembled. I see the day coming that every house has a 3D printer and you buy sacks of different materials like we buy printer ink now. Then people like me who are into plastic modelling kits will be able to download the kit and print the sprue's or individual parts out. There are so many potential uses my imagination can't see them. Imagine being able to print assembled and functioning machines!

Reading about 3D printers last week.
Someone in the states arranged to crowd source the funding for a small industrial printer and managed to 'print'the lower reciever for a rifle, as this is the only part with a serial number it caused quite a stir, I believe 'someone' removed the printer a couple of days later.
Yes it did work, thet put 100 rounds though it without a problem.

I wish I could tpye...

[ametlib]

Alski,
I'm terribly sorry but I forgot the most important thing, the plastic cover have to be loosened first. Ther is one screw in the pump body and 2 screws within the camshaft pully. Theese two can be taken out through the holes
in the campully, but you can only reach both if the engine is stopped in the right position. With the screws out you can bend the cover enough to get the tentioner in/ out, but don't break it or kill the cambelt.
Again,terribly sorry if this cause you extra work.

BTW if the cambelt is giving you a hard time, use a swiwle handle with a 24mm socket on the other side camshaft. Press it gently clockwise and the belt will slacken.
But mate, gently, you only need to slacken the belt, turning the engine with your hand in there is absolutely a bad idea !

[Alski2009]

Hey Ametlib. Don't be silly. It's easily done. My example of doing up the retention-valves 'finger-tight' will haunt me forever. Sigh. Crasher emailed me a bundle of images and PDF's (for which i am extremely grateful for) and once my timing tools and parts arrive i will tackle this monstrous job. For the record it scares the living poo out of me, but when you don't have any options, you either dig deep and get on with it, or you bug out and cry to mama.

So. Question. What size socket do i need for the crankshaft pulley? I need the 32mm spanners to remove the viscous fan, to expose the plastic covers to get access to all of the gubbins inside. Hopefully spin it till i get TDC on the cranskshaft pulley and lock the flywheel with the timing pin, lock the IP with the locking pin, pull off the camshaft caps to insert the timing plates and then hopefully with sufficient access undo the timing cover bolts and then replace the tensioner.

Labelling everything with masking tape is paying off. I read one of Crasher's PDF's that states the IP belt must be marked in the direction of travel. I could only get to half of it when it was installed, so it's obvious which way round it goes.

I am hoping to whip off the PAS pump bracket aswell to change all of the bushes and finally fix that pulley. I am a sucker for tools. I bought the T40104 off Ebay.de. The auxiliary belt is sliding forward and eating the plastic cover. So i'll need to remove the timing belt anyway. I guess the good thing is i can finally replace the snub mount and the N/S engine mount with the front in the service position.

OR, Ametlib. Do i need to slacken off the cambelt tensioner a little before turning the cam pulley on cyl 1-2-3? I guess after doing that i need to re-tension it all up and then turn the crankshaft over a few times to get everything to mesh again in the correct position?

[Crasher]

The crank pulley needs a 24-mm 12 point.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Crasher. I've got almost 1/4 ream of paper in my bag. Homework for tonight.

Pah! What's that dear? Valentine's Day, you say? I'm busy fixing the car.

PS: Don't forget to stop by a BP on the way home to get some droopy flowers and a box of Celebrations.

[Crasher]

No horizontal jig for you tonight then!

[ceilidhalfie]

Thanks Crasher. I've got almost 1/4 ream of paper in my bag. Homework for tonight.

Pah! What's that dear? Valentine's Day, you say? I'm busy fixing the car.

PS: Don't forget to stop by a BP on the way home to get some droopy flowers and a box of Celebrations.

In case you don't have enough info, take a look at a post of mine - A Beginners Guide to Replacing Cam Belts:

A Beginners Guide to Changing the Cam-Belts on 2002 Audi Allroad 2.5 TDI Automatic AKE (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?131341-A-Beginners-Guide-to-Changing-the-Cam-Belts-on-2002-Audi-Allroad-2-5-TDI-Automatic-AKE)

[Alski2009]

As sickeningly sweet as this may sound, we only just got married last September and we are still very much in-love.

There I go again. Letting myself down on a public forum. He says to the sound of fellas dropping their Yorkie bars and cans of Stella...

Oops. This was in response to Crashers comment on the 'horizontal jig' :) Happy Valentine's everyone!

[ametlib]

Hey Ametlib. Don't be silly. It's easily done. My example of doing up the retention-valves 'finger-tight' will haunt me forever. Sigh. Crasher emailed me a bundle of images and PDF's (for which i am extremely grateful for) and once my timing tools and parts arrive i will tackle this monstrous job. For the record it scares the living poo out of me, but when you don't have any options, you either dig deep and get on with it, or you bug out and cry to mama.

So. Question. What size socket do i need for the crankshaft pulley? I need the 32mm spanners to remove the viscous fan, to expose the plastic covers to get access to all of the gubbins inside. Hopefully spin it till i get TDC on the cranskshaft pulley and lock the flywheel with the timing pin, lock the IP with the locking pin, pull off the camshaft caps to insert the timing plates and then hopefully with sufficient access undo the timing cover bolts and then replace the tensioner.

Labelling everything with masking tape is paying off. I read one of Crasher's PDF's that states the IP belt must be marked in the direction of travel. I could only get to half of it when it was installed, so it's obvious which way round it goes.

I am hoping to whip off the PAS pump bracket aswell to change all of the bushes and finally fix that pulley. I am a sucker for tools. I bought the T40104 off Ebay.de. The auxiliary belt is sliding forward and eating the plastic cover. So i'll need to remove the timing belt anyway. I guess the good thing is i can finally replace the snub mount and the N/S engine mount with the front in the service position.

OR, Ametlib. Do i need to slacken off the cambelt tensioner a little before turning the cam pulley on cyl 1-2-3? I guess after doing that i need to re-tension it all up and then turn the crankshaft over a few times to get everything to mesh again in the correct position?

Just to answer your last question. If you are pulling the front anyway, there is no point in doeing this. This was incase you wanted to replace the tentioner without pulling the front, and you are not supposed to turn the cam pully on cyl 1-2-3,
just add some pressure to it and the belt slackens enough to let the pump belt tentioner pass it.
My advice though, is to remove the 3 screws holding the plastic cover and replace the tentioner without pulling the front. Then do the rest in the sommertime....

[Doctle Odd]

Stella, whiskey and the horizontal bop, what a breakfast!

[Crasher]

As sickeningly sweet as this may sound, we only just got married last September and we are still very much in-love.

Yuk, yuk, stop it :puke:

[Doctle Odd]

Aaaaw :approve:

[Alski2009]

Just to answer your last question. If you are pulling the front anyway, there is no point in doeing this. This was incase you wanted to replace the tentioner without pulling the front, and you are not supposed to turn the cam pully on cyl 1-2-3,
just add some pressure to it and the belt slackens enough to let the pump belt tentioner pass it.
My advice though, is to remove the 3 screws holding the plastic cover and replace the tentioner without pulling the front. Then do the rest in the sommertime....

Hi Ametlib. I had a quick look at the car this morning before work as the rear demister did its job. I can just see the 2No bolts that hold the plastic cover onto the cylinder head behind the cam pulley on cyl 4-5-6. I just can't see how i can introduce enough slack into the cam belt to remove the IP tensioner. But this was only a quick look. I need a couple of hours and several cups of coffee before i can tie my shoe-laces before work in the morning.

Thinking about it now, there are 3 possible solutions:
1. I could wiggle the broken IP tensioner back on, refit the IP belt and the IP timing pulley, ask the guys at work to weld something to keep tension on the belt and crank it till i get access to the bolts. Then remove the plastic cover and replace the tensioner.
2. Wait for the tools to arrive and spin the engine with a 24mm socket on a long breaker bar till i get TDC, lock everything, remove the bolts, remove the plastic cover and replace the tensioner.
3. C A R E F U L L Y Dremel out enough of the plastic cover that protrudes out to remove the tensioner. Of course i will need to replace this, but i could Plastic Weld some black plastic hangers over fine metal gauze to build it back up. It doesn't look structural to me and it is supported at either end.

Bad news chaps. We cancelled our weekend in Harrogate again. Even the orchid plant in the kitchen seemed to turn its back to me displeasingly.

[Alski2009]

In case you don't have enough info, take a look at a post of mine - A Beginners Guide to Replacing Cam Belts:

A Beginners Guide to Changing the Cam-Belts on 2002 Audi Allroad 2.5 TDI Automatic AKE (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?131341-A-Beginners-Guide-to-Changing-the-Cam-Belts-on-2002-Audi-Allroad-2-5-TDI-Automatic-AKE)

That is brilliant. Thanks Ceilidhalfie. With Crashers PDF's and your write-up i feel a bit more confident. Real world experience from yourselves is invaluable for people like me who would normally go to the garage. Audi R&D Tefal-heads (raise your hands if this means anything to you) probably trawl the forums and made the C6 and subsequent models even more difficult for the DIY-er. Who would have thunk it that so many people are working on the 2.5 TDI V6 themselves.

I am missing a plastic cap on one of the idler pulleys, does anyone have a spare? Or can i buy a replacement from TPS? Will need to confirm which one it is.

[ametlib]

Hi Ametlib. I had a quick look at the car this morning before work as the rear demister did its job. I can just see the 2No bolts that hold the plastic cover onto the cylinder head behind the cam pulley on cyl 4-5-6. I just can't see how i can introduce enough slack into the cam belt to remove the IP tensioner. But this was only a quick look. I need a couple of hours and several cups of coffee before i can tie my shoe-laces before work in the morning.

Thinking about it now, there are 3 possible solutions:
1. I could wiggle the broken IP tensioner back on, refit the IP belt and the IP timing pulley, ask the guys at work to weld something to keep tension on the belt and crank it till i get access to the bolts. Then remove the plastic cover and replace the tensioner.
2. Wait for the tools to arrive and spin the engine with a 24mm socket on a long breaker bar till i get TDC, lock everything, remove the bolts, remove the plastic cover and replace the tensioner.
3. C A R E F U L L Y Dremel out enough of the plastic cover that protrudes out to remove the tensioner. Of course i will need to replace this, but i could Plastic Weld some black plastic hangers over fine metal gauze to build it back up. It doesn't look structural to me and it is supported at either end.

Bad news chaps. We cancelled our weekend in Harrogate again. Even the orchid plant in the kitchen seemed to turn its back to me displeasingly.

Hmm, I think we really need to get you to Harrogate before your mrs expl....;)
1. A bit too much work I would say.
2. in order to spin the engine I would only do that by the crank. In order to do that, you'll have to remove the front plastic cover, in order to that again you have to loosen the viscouse fan.
And even after doeing that, it's a really tight squees to remove the plastic cover. ( In many's opinion it can't be done without pulling the front)
3. Always love a MacGyver ! Not my choise though.
4. I understand that you are unsure about timing the pump.
The only thing that matters is the pumps position relative to the crankshafts position. Meaning the pully and belt can be placed in any position you like, doesn't matter as long as the pump position is right relative to the crank.
(You can crank the engine all day long without the pumpbelt if you like, as long as you can find the TDC you can still time the pump )
If you have a manual tranny, enter 6th and push the car. If auto. use the key.
I would have removed the 3 screws holding the plastic cover, then play around with the cover till you can get the tentioner out/ in and then (with the new tentioner in place ) worrie about the pump timing.

[Alski2009]

Thanks Ametlib. Okay. This is starting to make more sense to me now. You've probably noticed I tend to overly complicate things whenever possible.

Since the crankshaft bolt is covered I have atleast 2 places to find TDC. The cam (OT) via the oil filler tube and the flywheel notch via the timing tool bolt. So i don't need to turn the engine by hand, thus not needing to pull the front of the car off. It's easy to find TDC on the IP just rotate the pulley till i can lock it with the pin. The only slight problem is the car is on my driveway with a slight gradient for surface water to run to fall. I can let it roll back a bit, put it into 1st and crank it on the starter till i can get TDC, or just let it roll back in 6th?

It is nice and sunny outside and such a shame i am stuck in the office. Hehe. Yes, the wife is itching to go to Harrogate. If i can't get my allroad fixed in time, we will have to go in the Corolla! Perish the thought!

We are having dinner with the in-laws tonight. I'm going to TPS early tomorrow morning and then tackle this job.

I am trying to work out how to fit and adjust the IP tensioner from memory. Unfortunately Crasher's PDFs are at home. The genuine VAG bolt is 22mm, the SKF version is 21mm. I can't remember reading anything about how to set it up before installation. There's an awfully long thread on that bolt and it has a shoulder. So do you tighten the allen bolt till it hits the shoulder and then adjust the tension with the VAG cutout tool with a torque wrench? Or do you tighten it with a couple of threads left either way and then tighten with the VAG cutout tool? The important thing is not to put torque into the allen bolt as it will shear again. I am sure all will be revealed when i get that cover and tensioner off.

[Crasher]

Tefal-heads (raise your hands if this means anything to you)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3hpYgJCeEc

Don't remind me, they called me Tefal head at school, not just because I have a head like that but I was always buried in engineering books and designing things.

[Alski2009]

Me too! Both my head and studying about something or taking something apart.

My brother from another mother :beerchug:

[Doctle Odd]

I remember it well, I always thought those guys were cloned off Beaker

[Alski2009]

Crap! Spent a while this morning assessing the situation with a strong coffee and a digestive biscuit when it came to me. So pulled the IP off to get great access to swap the broken tensioner out with the new one. Since I was there I pulled the oil filter bracket off and yes. Snugged up the oil retention valves up a bit more. And yes the threads hadn't locked. Bummer. So that should fix the tappetty sound on the over-run. Gutted.

As if it couldn't get any worse. Pulled the rocker cover on cyl 1-2-3 and it has dropped a rocker arm on camshaft 1 (driven by cam pulley) 2nd rocker arm in from the top.The stamp on the bottom of the rocker arm isn't the INA infinity symbol, it is an E. Looks like it has sustained 1 hell of an impact as something has taken a nibble off the cup and there are gouge marks on the radiused part. The lash cap is still sat on top of the valve.

So what do I do? I got my timing tools today. I can find a spare rocker arm. But if the rest of them are not genuine VAG, who knows how long it'll last. So p!ssed off now as I have paid different people to do this job 4 times so far and been let down by all.

[adamss24]

Everything i fitted on the car was what came in the koblenshmidt kit, do not make assumptions as you watched me fitting them inside the head ! There are different issues with your engine IF it still dropping lifters ! The old lifter could have been one of the old one that fallen, there are plenty places where they can fall without being easy to retrieve unless you turn the head upside down ! Take the sump and check how many are at the bottom ! Your engine has other issues ! Also do not fricking believe i would work again 3 days timing your engine in the cold, wet drive for 125 quid ! That's why you paid 3k+ last rebuild, the cam kit was 725 posted and i have to pay 20% tax on that as i put the money into my account ! As i said before, i don't mind helping but i got to eat too ! Next time i will be a bit more upfront and charge the right prices ! Here's your pictures:
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5200.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5199.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5198.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5197.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5196.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5195.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5194.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5193.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5192.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5191.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5189.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz323/adamss24/DSCF5190.jpg

[ametlib]

Alski, really sorry for you mate.
I've seen Kolbenschmidt kits with febi pushers and rockers from China. It seems to be a common agreement that febi is fist class stuff. Well, the Germans held them to be 2nd class... ( INA & Ruville first class)
Rockers markt with an E ? I really don't know, but could they possibly come from China ?
What I do know is that INA rockers are black and the China copies are metallic in color, and that they will disintegrate rather quick. Actually I have a few laying in my garage with small wear-marks, they almost made it to 200 km ( !!!! ther is no K in ther) before
the camshaft spotted one out...
If you can feel the wear-mark after the camshaft with your fingernail I guess they need to be replaced.
I wouldn't blaim Addams here, no matter how well a job is done, things can go wrong! I know, have been there.

[adamss24]

The thing is i have done many of these and i have a few running engines with the same KS cams running fine with no issues and they are taking hard pounding every day. The KS camshaft kit HAS INA black rockers and lifters, i got the same gear before from dealer for 3 times the price ! The e marked rockers are from the old camshaft kit (for which the OP was charged 3.5k !) which also spat a few rockers. It's more of a coincidence if the same engine timed properly with correct timing tools keeps spitting rockers...

[ametlib]

Yes the Kolbenschmidt cams with INA rockers / pushers is the best you can get ( I would even choose them before the newer, hollow cams )
But what is his engine running now, KS cams with INA pushers and China rockers ?

[adamss24]

Yes the Kolbenschmidt cams with INA rockers / pushers is the best you can get ( I would even choose them before the newer, hollow cams )
But what is his engine running now, KS cams with INA pushers and China rockers ?
The rocker he found is an old one which was fitted by the the garage at the previous rebuild, cheap cast cams and e marked lifters and rockers. They were not in such bad shape but i don't know how many k miles the engine has done with the previous cam kit, only met Alex last summer ! He told me the garage replaced a few rockers and lifters with genuine items as it kept spitting them out so there was a mixture of of INA and chinese rockers fitted in the heads when i took it apart- i still have them in bags as i was about to rebuild a pair of heads for one of my spare engines !

[Alski2009]

Err. Chris. Allegedly the garage replaced all of them twice. At their cost after 2 rocker arms were spat out. You've been working on my car for a lot longer than a few months, but that's by the by. When i came to you just before Christmas you pulled the rocker covers off and diagnosed an INA rocker arm had come loose. After a while we discussed my options and given the quality of the kit you recommended and compared to the prices from VAG, and despite wanting to buy a house, decided to go for it.

This isn't the place for slinging $h!t, and since you slung it first, I gave you £900 upfront and a further £150 when i picked up my car many weeks later. I was prepared to give you more (i am happy to support people when i see the quality of their work, and you know this is not BS) but given i had paid £60+ in cab fare going back & forth and drove off with a significant oil leak, and tappetty engine, was unsure about how long the engine would last as the wife and i were going to Harrogate that weekend, I decided to hold some of the money back. You said when it gets a little warmer you can pull the heads and port them for me. In readiness for the injectors and the hybrid turbo.

We talked about you needing a holiday or atleast a break from all of the stress, people hounding you to work on their cars and have them ready for yesterday. And when i couldn't contact you, i thought good for you, you went on holiday. Which is when i embarked on this journey as i couldn't just wait for you to come back.

Now i was prepared to keep this to myself as you are highly regarded in these circles. This is why an 'office worker'/CAD operator with zero experience working on these engines has replaced a broken inlet manifold with a missing lug to bolt in to (which you broke and replaced when lifting the engine with the hoist when changing the engine mounts), the oil retention valves, broke an IP tensioner and replaced it, found a nut so tightly wound on a the rocker cover stud, it pulled out, AND is about to tackle a timing belt job so i can replace the E marked rocker arm. AND for the record, it wasn't left over from the previous garage's attempts, it is clearly missing from underneath the camshaft lobe. I knew something was wrong when i was checking the timing minus the plastic timing covers and the feed to the airbox, from where there was a distinctive thud-thud-thud coming from it.

The rocker arm i pulled out of the head, which was right next to the valve spring, is clearly marked with an E and not the INA logo. From our previous discussions it could either be made in China or Turkey. The rocker arms are the same black colour as the INA's, luckily i found one in the many left over bits from the garage. It looks a little polished, but since i don't have any options I will try to fit the INA rocker and then contact the ebay seller on your return. I am so disappointed, I held the torch for you on the same 2 cold winter nights and watched you rebuild the top-end.

It's almost 12h30 and i need to work on my car. If the weather holds i may get 6hours. Wish me luck.

[Alski2009]

Alski, really sorry for you mate.
I've seen Kolbenschmidt kits with febi pushers and rockers from China. It seems to be a common agreement that febi is fist class stuff. Well, the Germans held them to be 2nd class... ( INA & Ruville first class)
Rockers markt with an E ? I really don't know, but could they possibly come from China ?
What I do know is that INA rockers are black and the China copies are metallic in color, and that they will disintegrate rather quick. Actually I have a few laying in my garage with small wear-marks, they almost made it to 200 km ( !!!! ther is no K in ther) before
the camshaft spotted one out...
If you can feel the wear-mark after the camshaft with your fingernail I guess they need to be replaced.
I wouldn't blaim Addams here, no matter how well a job is done, things can go wrong! I know, have been there.

Hi Ametlib, looking at the E rocker arm, it has a slightly polished look, but is predominantly still black. Whereas the INA one i am about to replace has more of a silvered and polished look. I cannot feel any kind of wear mark. We have that profiling machine at work which will measure hundredths of a mm.

I didn't blame Adamss. I was just annoyed and purposefully didn't respond last night as i was hopping mad. Oh well. C'est la vie I guess.

[Alski2009]

Yes the Kolbenschmidt cams with INA rockers / pushers is the best you can get ( I would even choose them before the newer, hollow cams )
But what is his engine running now, KS cams with INA pushers and China rockers ?

I am usually so OCD about everything and I wish i had checked each and every part before fitting. The engine is now running KS cams, maybe INA lifters, maybe INA lash caps and knowing my luck it is has 23 INA rocker arms and 1 E rocker arm. If i was to run this like one of my projects at work, i would strip everything to be absolutely sure of what's fitted. I have Crashers PDF's and the timing tools. Ladies and gentlemen. Boys and girls. I may be some time...

[Crasher]

The equaliser elements and cam levers when bought genuine are a bright finish and it is all I have ever fitted.

[Alski2009]

Hooray. It runs. Currently in 23 valve configuration. I am a t!t. After everything you guys wrote, I BROKE THE LAST ONE by turning the old tensioner clockwise shearing the allen bolt. It took me 30mins to figure out how to do it and as there wasn't enough space to use the Sealey IP tensioner tool plus ratchet, I used the 21mm socket I cut away. No biggie I will need the timing tools to replace that missing rocker arm. Apologies for not using the correct terminology. The Equaliser reminds me of Edward Woodward.

The real test is how tappetty it sounds tomorrow morning. Coz if the tappets are bleedin down over night I am going to buy a 1.9tdi A4.

Big thanks goes out to all of you for helping me. PM me your address chaps and I will send a little present out to you by way of appreciation..

[adamss24]

Err. Chris. Allegedly the garage replaced all of them twice. At their cost after 2 rocker arms were spat out. You've been working on my car for a lot longer than a few months, but that's by the by. When i came to you just before Christmas you pulled the rocker covers off and diagnosed an INA rocker arm had come loose. After a while we discussed my options and given the quality of the kit you recommended and compared to the prices from VAG, and despite wanting to buy a house, decided to go for it.

This isn't the place for slinging $h!t, and since you slung it first, I gave you £900 upfront and a further £150 when i picked up my car many weeks later. I was prepared to give you more (i am happy to support people when i see the quality of their work, and you know this is not BS) but given i had paid £60+ in cab fare going back & forth and drove off with a significant oil leak, and tappetty engine, was unsure about how long the engine would last as the wife and i were going to Harrogate that weekend, I decided to hold some of the money back. You said when it gets a little warmer you can pull the heads and port them for me. In readiness for the injectors and the hybrid turbo.

We talked about you needing a holiday or atleast a break from all of the stress, people hounding you to work on their cars and have them ready for yesterday. And when i couldn't contact you, i thought good for you, you went on holiday. Which is when i embarked on this journey as i couldn't just wait for you to come back.

Now i was prepared to keep this to myself as you are highly regarded in these circles. This is why an 'office worker'/CAD operator with zero experience working on these engines has replaced a broken inlet manifold with a missing lug to bolt in to (which you broke and replaced when lifting the engine with the hoist when changing the engine mounts), the oil retention valves, broke an IP tensioner and replaced it, found a nut so tightly wound on a the rocker cover stud, it pulled out, AND is about to tackle a timing belt job so i can replace the E marked rocker arm. AND for the record, it wasn't left over from the previous garage's attempts, it is clearly missing from underneath the camshaft lobe. I knew something was wrong when i was checking the timing minus the plastic timing covers and the feed to the airbox, from where there was a distinctive thud-thud-thud coming from it.

The rocker arm i pulled out of the head, which was right next to the valve spring, is clearly marked with an E and not the INA logo. From our previous discussions it could either be made in China or Turkey. The rocker arms are the same black colour as the INA's, luckily i found one in the many left over bits from the garage. It looks a little polished, but since i don't have any options I will try to fit the INA rocker and then contact the ebay seller on your return. I am so disappointed, I held the torch for you on the same 2 cold winter nights and watched you rebuild the top-end.

It's almost 12h30 and i need to work on my car. If the weather holds i may get 6hours. Wish me luck.

Alex, you need to get your maths right mate, you only gave me 100 quid in cash when you picked up the car and 900 to buy the cams, £725 were the cams, deduct tax out of the 900 quid (which i have to pay regardless of if i made it or not !) and you'll see why i acted the way i did ! That's why i was ****** off, every time i seemed to work on your car something else's gone wrong ! I do not care how much it took you in cab fares(i offered you a lift several times and even took you home once !), at the end of the day i don't offer a courtesy car because you still need to learn how to drive a manual gearbox and it wasn't my fault the inlet manifold cracked when i did the engine mounts (maybe it was a bad cast), that was the first time that happened and i removed dozens of engines that way + replaced engine mounts on v6 tdi before- i fitted what i had at the time to get you mobile ! If it would not be for people like me, crasher or ametlib you would still pay garages thousands to fix simple things for you ! Why ? Because we showed you how to approach things and how to do it with basic tools and equipment- this is the reason why you started feeling confident and cocky (in my opinion) ! Thing is working on these cars is not such an easy way and sometimes PAYING someone is the best approach !
Everything that i fitted in that head was what came in the kit, for your info i still have the bags with the old lifters and rockers i pulled off the heads, i did not even bothered counting them but the INA rockers are dull black in color and the e marked ones are light grey! I will get the bags out of the silver car off my drive and count how many rockers are in each bag, i don't double cross people by fitting sub standard parts and such ! I have used automotorsport many times before and never been given e marked parts- if that's the case bring it to me and i will take a few pictures and complain to the guy as i pride in what i do !

[Crasher]

I was told a story of a 2.5 this morning. He is a friend of one of my mechanics and we gave him the price we normally charge to do the belts and the water pump/thermostat. He thought we were too expensive so he went somewhere else but hammered home to them the importance of the tools and setting the COI, they said they hired the tools and had the equipment to do the COI. Now it starts like a bag of ****, pumps out black smoke, runs awfully and the timing belt covers have Tipex on them...They told him the injection system is self adjusting! You get what you pay for.

[ametlib]

Hooray. It runs. Currently in 23 valve configuration. I am a t!t. After everything you guys wrote, I BROKE THE LAST ONE by turning the old tensioner clockwise shearing the allen bolt. It took me 30mins to figure out how to do it and as there wasn't enough space to use the Sealey IP tensioner tool plus ratchet, I used the 21mm socket I cut away. No biggie I will need the timing tools to replace that missing rocker arm. Apologies for not using the correct terminology. The Equaliser reminds me of Edward Woodward.

The real test is how tappetty it sounds tomorrow morning. Coz if the tappets are bleedin down over night I am going to buy a 1.9tdi A4.

Big thanks goes out to all of you for helping me. PM me your address chaps and I will send a little present out to you by way of appreciation..

No present needed, thank you.
A couple of years ago ( just out of couriousity) I pulled a oem pusher apart and removed the spring and the one way valve in the bottom.
Then I fitted it in a loose head and also fitted an oem rocker arm and camshaft. Then I fitted a dial indicator gauge and measured the max. clearence.
After that I did the same with an INA rocker and a China rocker.
What did I learn from that? First thing, measuring the oem and Ina rocker, ther wasn't much slack there ( I didn't take pictures or notes so I might remember wrong, but I belive less than 1mm, measured at the pusher side)
The china rocker however had almost twice that slack!
So it was obvious that the China rocker arm was at a much greater risk to be pulled of the pusher than the Oem and Ina rocker.
Another thing, even with no oil at all in the pushers, the rocker arm cannot be pulled out in one piece without pushing the valve a good bit extra down... ( so there is a bit of force needed here)
It seems like your engine have a historie of loosing rocker arms, also including one INA rocker ?
If so, I'm afraid Addams is right, saying your engine have other issues, a new camshaft shoud definitly not spit out an unweared INA rocker....
You might already get it fixed though( retention valves) as I have a feeling most of this **** happens during startup.
I would still not blaim Addams here ( even if he by a mistake refitted one of the old rockers) Theese engines are just not designed to have their camshafts replaced
in a dark driveway wintertime...
Last ,fitting a new rocker in there isn't the end of the world, and doesn't have to take long. ( I,m afraid the "nice" words the two of you have sheared will last a bit longer though....)