Which A6..... C7 or C6?

[Hammer2001]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question as the answers mat be biased! But I figure that people here may have had the experience of driving both cars, so can offer a real opinion on which is best.

Basically I'm looking at purchasing a used A6 to replace my C5 1998 1.8T SE A6.

I'm in the fortunate position that the cost difference between the C7 or C6 is not the main issue, I'm more concerned with which people think is the better car to purchase right now?

I'm looking at either a 2010 2.0 TDI 170 Le Mans (C6) with around 60k on the clock for about £16000, or a 2011 2.0TDI SE (C7) with around 20k on the clock for about £21000.

I only clock up about 6k a year in miles and I'm the type of person who keeps a car long term and would plan to keep either one for 10+ years, so is the newer car worth the extra money?

Is the C7 a better car than the C6?

[Guest 2]

The 2010 car will have the latest modules and all the niggles from the start of production ironed out which started back in 2004 so you're guaranteed newness.

With the C7 only being released you have the opposite of the above, the first modules/software etc with some niggles still to be found

The SE will have softer suspension and a better ride than the Le Mans so drive both to see if you like the harsh-ish ride in the Le Mans.

Both cars will have the Common Rail engine which is more reliable than the PD it replaced.

60k is nothing for a CR engine and will go on and on as long as its well cared for with oil changes every 10k/1 year.

Personally I would go with the 2010 as all niggles have been sorted and could cost less in the long run than the "first run" of the C7 which the 2011 will be.

Of course its personal choice - I'd rather have the looks of the S-Line over the comfort of the SE but saying that - i have become use to the ride in my Le Mans over the past nearly 4 years.

My opinion of course, so wait for others.

[Timothy Nathan]

After I ordered my 3.0TDi C7 SE I was loaned a 2.0TDi C6 S-Line for two weeks.

Let me put it this way...I would have rather have had a 5 Series or a Merc E than the C6, whereas the C7 knocks both into a cocked hat. The C7 is a much, much nicer car in almost every way. Part of that is that the C6 was an S-Line and had silly wheels which made the ride awful and the noise much greater. So maybe if I had had an SE of both, it would have been a fairer comparison, but nonetheless, I was absolutely delighted to give back the C6 and get the C7.

[foxy367]

I can't comment on the C6 other than being a passenger in one. Build quality of the C6 was probably slightly better but both exceed BMW build quality and both are well equipped. Personally I also think the C7 looks less bulky than the C6 and much more up to date.

My only comment would be if you only cover 6k a year are these miles generally short journeys or do you cover long journeys less often? If its mainly short journeys you could have some issues with the DPF as it doesn't get chance to burn the particles small enough and will need to go through the regeneration process much more often and could lead to sensor or DPF issues long term. Something that never seems to be talked about by the dealer!

Either way I'm sure you'll enjoy either! :beerchug:

[johnsimcox]

I can't comment on the C6 other than being a passenger in one. Build quality of the C6 was probably slightly better but both exceed BMW build quality and both are well equipped. Personally I also think the C7 looks less bulky than the C6 and much more up to date.

My only comment would be if you only cover 6k a year are these miles generally short journeys or do you cover long journeys less often? If its mainly short journeys you could have some issues with the DPF as it doesn't get chance to burn the particles small enough and will need to go through the regeneration process much more often and could lead to sensor or DPF issues long term. Something that never seems to be talked about by the dealer!

Either way I'm sure you'll enjoy either! :beerchug:
One thought is that you could get a C6 with the 2.0 TFSi engine, an option not currently on offer in the UK for the C7. This would remove the DPF issue and also probably save a few £s on the purchase price and be better suited to your low mileage. The only challenge is that there are relatively few available at any one time

[Hammer2001]

Yes, the DPF issue does concern me a little. What is the definition of a short journey?
I don't use the car each day to commute or for a couple of mile type trips to the shops. My shortest regular journey is about 8 miles on a mix of urban and dual carriageways. I'd say on average I'd be at speeds of 40+ mph for only 10mins of that.
Once or twice a month I do a longer journey of about 20 miles on a mix of urban & motorways where I'm probably cruising at 50-70 mph for around 20 minutes.
Certainly in spring/summer months from April- September the car would get longer journeys on the motorway for anything from 1-3 hour runs a few times a month.
I'm unclear as to whether this type of driving pattern would be enough to avoid problems. I've emailed Audi about it, but so far have had no response.
From what I've read on internet forums most of the DPF issues seem to be with the PD engines, the CR engines don't seem to have quite the same issues. Is that right?

When I first started thinking of getting a newer car the 2.0TFSI was my first choice, but I've only seen 2 for sale in a few months and they've both been sold before I can even view them!
So I've sort of resigned myself that if I want another A6 (which I do!) it will have to be diesel.

[Guest 2]

DPFs need at least a 30 minute drive at 60mph in 4th at least once a week to keep it problem free.

If you cant do that then dont buy a car with a DPF.

Only option is to go for a prefacelift C6 TDi (some have dpf as an optional extra so check) or petrol

[Hammer2001]

I'm not so keen on pre facelift cars. So it looks like unless I can find a petrol I'm going to have to look at alternative cars and makes. Shame as I like the A6 and been a happy Audi owner for the last 10 years.

Saying that I know a guy who owns a 2009 A4 with a DPF and he virtually does a 2 mile journey each way to work in it every day, and he tells me he's never had a DPF warning light in 2 years of ownership!

Anyone have any views on the DPF cleaner additives you can buy, which you add to a tank of fuel every service interval. They are supposed to lower the temperatures that the soot requires to burn off, thereby meaning you can regen the DPF easier at lower driving speeds. Do they work?

[Guest 2]

Thats the thing - you could be lucky and never have a dpf warning in your ownership and theres cars which throw up the error more than often and require exensive and awkward sensors replaced.

Even that journey I posted above is done every 10-14 days it should be fine in my mind.

[Petenats]

Hi All,

I've been lurking on the forum in readiness of picking up my new C7 tomorrow...now Thursday (I had a quick look over it today and noticed a scratch which they are going to repair before I pick it up (a polite request from me!!!)).

I've been paying particular attention to this discussion about particulates! I've owned diesels for 10 years and 220,000 miles (my trusty VW golf, still going strong) but without a DPF.

I'm not entirely sure where the talk of 4th gear, 60mph, 30 minute drives come from unless it's anecdotal as this is the Audi advice:

DPF Technology < Owners area < Audi UK (http://www.audi.co.uk/owners-area/dpf-technology.html)

This seems at odds with the information given and seems much more achievable in the "real world". I'm not sure that an entire car buying decision should be swung on DPF considerations unless backed up with some serious technical information!

Happy to hear that information though as mine will be making mixed journeys and I (well the wife who'll be driving it most) will need to be well drilled to make sure "regeneration" is ongoing!!!

[Guest 2]

I'm not entirely sure where the talk of 4th gear, 60mph, 30 minute drives come from unless it's anecdotal as this is the Audi advice

That's what it says on an Audi DPF sticker on my windscreen in my A3.

[Petenats]

Cheers Chris,

I'll have to see what they say when I pick it up and if there are any associated stickers in the C7!

[Hammer2001]

Petenats, I'll be interested to hear what they tell you re DPF regeneration.

I can understand that there were issues with early DPF technology, but you would hope it would have improved by now.
As the vast majority of large cars I see for sale are predominantly diesel, it seems ridiculous for car makers to produce cars in which you are forced to drive them in an uneconomical manner, just to avoid them breaking down!

Another mate of mine drives a Ford Focus, this uses some sort of additive which reduces the temperatures needed for DPF regeneration. He's never had an issue with it.
Surely if Ford can produce a trouble free DPF system why can't Audi!

[Timothy Nathan]

I'm at about 11,000 miles and have not had any issues. A lot of my trips are just being a taxi service to the station, about 2 miles of 30mph away, but I do some trips at 50-70 as well.

The literature seems to suggest that you have to be pretty abusive to get a problem.

[skibuddy]

Check out this Audi tutorial video on care for your DPF


Audi Tutorial - Diesel Particulate Filter Technology - YouTube (www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwjamZ98Ebk)

[Petenats]

That's the tutorial I saw too. It seems much less of an issue according to the video, as long as some dual carriage way driving is done. It mentions 15 minutes at 40+ mph with no mention of gears and revs!

I'll see what the dealership says and the manual recommends. I suspect such aggressive driving (60mph+ 4th gear and 30 minutes) is only necessary if the warning is shown for active regeneration rather than as a regular passive regeneration protocol.

This link suggests that the high rev regeneration is only necessary when the warning activates:

DPF light on? | DPF Issues (http://www.dpfissues.co.uk/dpf-light-on/)

Although a quick internet search seems to suggest some problems with the A3 DPF system I'm not sure just how common the problems may be throughout the Audi fleet.

This is some AA information on the subject which again suggests that a 10 minute dual carriageway or motorway journey should be enough to do the regeneration job:

http://www.aa-academy.com/Training/Learning%20Zone/Diesel%20Particulate%20Filter%20(DPF).asp


I'm intrigued to find out more...I'd quite like to enjoy driving the car rather than have a stopwatch running!

[foxy367]

As I threw in my DPF reply I best back it up with some evidence!!!!

My first DPF equipped car was a Leon FR CR170 which was a 56 plate and over the 2 years I owned it I had the DPF warning come on probably half a dozen or so times. My journeys were all motorway miles at 70mph (cough!) generally the DPF light came on when I had been doing town mileage (for example I'd had the engine running for an hour when me and my mate had gone watching the Wales Rally and the light came on shortly after I'd set off for home. It threw a few errors over the time I owned it regarding exhaust sensors however this was one of the first cars fitted with the DPF. You could tell when the DPF was regenerating as the car sounded a bit rougher the revs rose and the exhaust sounded a bit more boomy with the gas coming out hotter generally 10 mins at reasonably high revs would clear it (I used to do 70mph in 5th for a bit and it cleared the light). I ended up using Millers diesel additive to try and help which in all fairness it did.

I understand that since 2006 DPF's have come on leaps and bounds (they had to to be honest) and I'd be surprised if Audi hadn't bottomed out some of the sensor issues.

One thing I will say though was the 60mph in fourth seems excessive for 30mins every week. The key is to not let the engine labour as this will generate more soot that the DPF will have to deal with also the short journeys aren't recommended as the system doesn't generate enough heat to burn everything off hence the regeneration. I hope that this car doesn't have the same problems as the Leon as my last car fitted with a DPF didn't (BMW 3 Series)

In terms of finding a petrol A6 I suppose most people would buy these as a mile muncher and would choose a diesel. I would also be surprised if the dealer could tell you much more than Google to be fair. (My dealer rang me to ask what SD card I was using!!!!!)

[man le-mans]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question as the answers mat be biased! But I figure that people here may have had the experience of driving both cars, so can offer a real opinion on which is best.

Basically I'm looking at purchasing a used A6 to replace my C5 1998 1.8T SE A6.

I'm in the fortunate position that the cost difference between the C7 or C6 is not the main issue, I'm more concerned with which people think is the better car to purchase right now?

I'm looking at either a 2010 2.0 TDI 170 Le Mans (C6) with around 60k on the clock for about £16000, or a 2011 2.0TDI SE (C7) with around 20k on the clock for about £21000.

I only clock up about 6k a year in miles and I'm the type of person who keeps a car long term and would plan to keep either one for 10+ years, so is the newer car worth the extra money?

Is the C7 a better car than the C6?
Why not go for a C6 with less miles on it

[Hammer2001]

The cars I quoted were just examples of what I'd seen available and the average prices for them. The lower mileage C6 Le mans I'd seen were aound the £18-19K, which made me think the difference in getting a C7 wasn't so great.
So it really came down to what was the better car.

I've been asking around and people who drive diesels with similar driving pattern to me don't seem to be having any major issues. It seems the CR engines handle them much better and most of the reported problems you read about on the internet seem to be with the older PD engines.

I've been plugging figures into a spreadsheet analysing the cost of ownership until the vehicles are 14 years old (same age as my current car). I'm factoring in fuel costs, road tax, insurance, general servicing, tyres etc. and depreciation and I'm quite suprised that buying the more expensive 1 year old C7 doesn't work out that much more expensive over the length of ownership. Mainly because I'd be able to keep the car for longer, the depreciation effect is reduced, which coupled with cheaper road tax and fuel economy (in theory!) it would work out only around £100 more a year to go for a C7 over the C6.

One thing that swung it more in favour of the C7 was that the engine has a timing chain rather than a belt and as such should not need replacing, whereas the C6 would probably need 3 belts over the ownership period, if I stuck to the recommended intervals.

To be honest I prefer the look and style of a C7, it also comes with more kit as standard, and it would have a couple of years of manufacturers warranty on it, so I'm leaning that way.
But I'll probably have changed my mind again tomorrow!!

[foxy367]

does the C7 have a timing chain then? I thought it had a belt (that'll save me a few hundred quid if it does!!!!) :beerchug:

[Guest 2]

does the C7 have a timing chain then? I thought it had a belt (that'll save me a few hundred quid if it does!!!!) :beerchug:

Only the V6's afaik

[Hammer2001]

I was basing on the info given in this post:

Engine and Cambelt Info Please (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?138745-Engine-and-Cambelt-Info-Please)

Maybe it's not correct, anyone confirm?

[johnsimcox]

I was basing on the info given in this post:

Engine and Cambelt Info Please (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?138745-Engine-and-Cambelt-Info-Please)

Maybe it's not correct, anyone confirm?\

The service book that came with my car says the 1.6 TDi and 2.0TDi engines across all Audi models require a new tootheb belt at 133k miles and 2.0TFSi models need a new belt at 114k. As they are not mentioned I assume all other engines have a timing chain.

[JamesMo]

\

The service book that came with my car says the 1.6 TDi and 2.0TDi engines across all Audi models require a new tootheb belt at 133k miles and 2.0TFSi models need a new belt at 114k. As they are not mentioned I assume all other engines have a timing chain.

According to the details in the service training for the A6 c7 all engines now feature a timing chain - without taking the top cover off or checking with the dealer I can't be 100% sure but I can't see why they would state this in two places in their own document if it were incorrect

[Hammer2001]

According to the details in the service training for the A6 c7 all engines now feature a timing chain - without taking the top cover off or checking with the dealer I can't be 100% sure but I can't see why they would state this in two places in their own document if it were incorrect

I checked this with a few Audi dealerships today and they all tell me that the 2.0 TDI engine on the C7 definitely has a cam belt not a chain, and recommend it should be replaced every 75000miles or 5 years whichever comes first.

Based on that it's swung me back towards getting a C6 rather than a C7!

[dandam]

I have been very lucky that over the past 7 years I have had a 1999 C5 2.5TDi quattro manual, a 2007 C6 2.0TDi SE multitronic and currently have a 2011 C7 2.0TDi SE manual (apart from a 6 month stint in an A3 between the C5 and the C6). The C7 is definitely a superior car to the C6.

The C7 hasn't been without issues (had to get the original clutch replaced due to a judder when very cold or very hot) and the dealer back up (Birmingham Audi) has been terrible but generally the car has been superb. I went to Ireland and back last week, to the Isle of Skye the month before, I have never had a bad back - in fact coming back from Scotland I drove from Fort William to Birmingham, 420 miles in 6 hours straight and never felt the need for a break (I know I should have, but it was middle of the day, I never got tired nor needed a 'comfort break'). It is cheap in terms of road tax, better on mpg (averaging 43mpg as opposed to 37mpg in the C6), rides far better, well equipped and in my opinion is a far better car. Since I got my in September last year I have done 27,500 miles.

Now if I had to go back to a C6 it wouldn't upset me, they are still great cars but if I had the choice given that there was little financial arguement for either car I would always go for the C7.

Just my opinion, but whichever you get then I hope it gives you as good service as the C5 has :arms: