PD 150 struggling to start and then juddering badly at idle......

[Jonny88]

Hi all,

I've been having a bit of trouble recently starting my '02 GT TDi 150. It seems to be completely random as sometimes it's absolutely fine and other times not.

It is occassionally (more frequently recently) struggling to start. When I turn the key, it just turns over pretty slowly, gradually picking up speed until it finally starts. Sometimes it can take 10 secs. Then once it starts, it judders badly at idle pretty much until I give it some revs and drive away.

Any thoughts on what could be wrong here?

Cheers in advance.
J.

[adamss24]

Get a new battery first and have your starter looked at + i will whip the rocker cover off and check the condition of the cam- pd 150 is known for munching the lobes on cyl 1 !

[Jonny88]

Thanks for that mate. It's going in for a service and MOT tomorrow so will see what comes of that.

However, the plot thickens. Have got the same issues with starting and the juddering. Furthermore, in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th, at low ish revs it shakes pretty noticeably when I accelerate. The shaking is also accompanied with a ticking noise. It pretty much did this for the whole journey home this evening (33 miles).

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

[Jonny88]

By some miracle it's just passed its MOT first time, with not a single bit of work being done.

The mechanic conceded it is a pretty noticeable misfire and suggested it could be either a problem with a wiring loom or an injector breaking down (hoping the former!).

Any advances on that?

Thanks.

[zollaf]

the in head harness that controls the injectors does fail. about £50 for one from a dealer and an hour to fit, which means taking the cam cover off, so a good time to check the cam.

[Jonny88]

Thanks zollaf. That makes sense. He said something about head harness and cam cover but I didn't fully follow it all to be honest.

He reckoned a couple of hundred for the harness replacement. That is including labour though I guess.

[zollaf]

thats a good price, if he charges £150 an hour. if he doesn't charge this much, he's taking the mick. if he does charge this much, then he's taking the mick.
remove the battery, remove the cam cover. undo the big multi plug. unclip the harness from injectors and slide it out, into the gap left from removing the battery. slide new harness in, plug into injectors and connect to main harness plug. replace battery and cam cover. job done, 1 hour allowing for a fag and tea, and a test drive and natter. oh, you could fit a new seal to the cam cover if you want as well, and have a look at the cam, make sure its still got lobes on it.

[Jonny88]

Thanks a lot for that mate. Doesn't sound like too technical a job?

Do you think it's worth trying this before having a diesel specialist look at it? Replacing the injector is a bit of a bigger job.

[zollaf]

very very unlikely to be an injector. its very likely to be the 10 year old harness that runs at 100 degrees covered in oil. every pd needs one every few years.

[Jonny88]

Great. Thanks for your help mate. Will order a new harness this evening. Any idea of the part number at all?

[zollaf]

no idea, i just phone vw and ask for what i need. any vag dealer or tps will sort one out for you though. afaik all 1.9 pd's use the same one. don't bother with a non genuine one though.

[Jonny88]

Yeah I try to steer clear of non genuine, especially for a part like this.

Commute home takes me past a VW garage - sorted.

[Jonny88]

Harness on order. Arriving Saturday AM.

Ran a fault code scan just now with a registered version of VCDS.

Results are as below. Not the code I was expecting (having done some reading up) but it's definitely misfiring.

VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.1
Thursday, 26 July 2012, 19:16:14:10239
Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,19,22,29,35,36,37,39,46,47,55 ,56,57,75,76
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-019-AJM.LBL
Controller: 038 906 019 HH
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC 0000SG 1491
Coding: 00002
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 64BB086CE755
WVWZZZ1JZ2W587830 VWZ6Z0A4095337
1 Fault Found:
16686 - Cylinder 2: Misfire Detected
P0302 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
Readiness: N/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of the other tests were "No fault found".

Does this still sound like it'll be sorted with a new harness or not?

[zollaf]

hmm, i find it usually shows a misfire on cyl 1, but thats just me.

[Jonny88]

Yeah I was expecting to get the code metioned in Crasher's first post here juddering and esp light on [Archive] - VW AUDI Forum - VWAF (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-51694.html)

Might as well try the harness I guess. It's not exactly expensive and I have nothing to lose at this point.

[Jonny88]

New harness is now in. Managed not to break the old one of the way out and didn't need to heat the new one (as has been suggested on some threads I've read).

The first start was still bad at which point my heart sank as I thought it might now be an injector problem. However, since then I've taken it for a drive and it drives perfectly with no juddering and have started it a few times, all of which happened as they should. So hoping that it's sorted but won't know for sure until I take it for a proper drive I guess.

Have run another fault code scan on it and it's still showing the 16686 - Cylinder 2: Misfire detected code. Is this because it's not fixed or because I need to have the ECU cleared by a garage??

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks.

[zollaf]

thats great, glad to hear it. does your scanner not clear faults. it needs clearing then running for a bit and re checking. if a code is logged, it will be there until cleared even though the fault may have been fixed.

[Jonny88]

When I click "Clear all DTC's" I get an error message pop up saying "Professional grade device required to clear codes" or something similar. I'm assuming DTC's are the Diagnostic ?????? Codes?

[zollaf]

diagnostic trouble codes. oh well, you can't clear them. i would find someone with vcds or other dealer level computer and clear them, so you can confirm it doesn't come back. try looking in the vcds user section and see if there is someone local.

[Jonny88]

Thanks for that mate, will do. I have an activated/registered version of VCDS - is that not enough to clear codes?

[zollaf]

it should be, thats strange ??????

[Jonny88]

After completing the fault code scan, which brings up a fault code, I try to clear it by pressing "Clear all DTCs" as below:

17496

After which, I get the following error message:

17497

Any thoughts?

Thanks a lot.

[zollaf]

no idea mate, i don't use vcds, i use a snap on modis.

[Crasher]

Its like Coors beer, you need the Pro get fat version rather than the Lite get drunk and not so fat version, you need the full VCDS harness which is around £260, if we could all do full VCDS for £25 we would be doing, the rest of us pay in full.

[Jonny88]

Thanks Crasher. I wasn't complaining, simply wondering. I did only pay £25 after all. Any idea what VW or similar might charge to clear the ECU?

It appears the new wiring harness hasn't completely solved the misfire problem. It was a pig to start this morning and then initially ran a bit rough at idle. However, it then drove absolutely normally with no juddering or shaking at all (10 miles of A-roads, 20 miles of motorway and 7 miles of lanes). When I got to work I then turned it off, and then it started again perfectly. Confused.

Any thoughts?
Cheers.

[zollaf]

i would now try some forte injector cleaner in the tank, followed by a long italian tune. if that doesn't help then it might start getting expensive.

[Jonny88]

Thanks for that Zollaf. Will do. Do you mean injector cleaner or the advanced formula diesel treatment?

[zollaf]

the advanced formula, about the best available. the injector that wasn't firing properly may be a bit gummed up and just need clearing out.

[Jonny88]

That could explain why it's bad at start up but drives ok(???)

[Jonny88]

Best place to get hold of Forte advanced diesel formula??

[zollaf]

any garage thats in the 'good garage scheme', or some factors sell it, or ebay.

[Jonny88]

Thanks mate. Just spoke to a diesel specialist who reckoned injector seals could be to blame?

[Crasher]

They could be, not a quick job.

[Jonny88]

In your experience Crasher, logically, would they be the next things to look at?

Quoted £150 + VAT all in. Turned round in a morning.

[Crasher]

That's 2 hours plus parts, I can't do them that fast to be honest, its a good three to four hour job for me possibly partly down to me resetting the injector lifts which most people don't do.

[Jonny88]

Thanks. Just doing a bit of reading up. It seems its quite common for people to start having issues after camshaft replacement. Not ideal. I had the camshaft and all the works replaced in April. It's not been properly right since then. Always taken a little longer to start than it ever has in the previous 3 years of ownership and it has a flat spot at 3000rpm in 2nd-4th gears.

Any chance the starting issue could be related to the timing and that it's just conincidence that the injector harness needed replacing as well?

[Crasher]

I bet the injector lift settings are way off.

[zollaf]

so easy to do yet so often overlooked.

[Jonny88]

I bet the injector lift settings are way off.

Is it easily done when having the injector seals done?

[Jonny88]

UPDATE:

I just attempted to clear the original fault code with VCDS through the individual control module method. It appears to have been successful and upon further scanning, the "01 Engine" address registers no codes.

So with any luck, it seems that the replacement injector harness may have indeed cured the "Cylinder 2 misfire" fault.

So it just remains to be seen whether the injector seals are indeed to blame for the poor starting.

Could it really be that coincidental that these two closely related problems have occurred at the same time, or do they often go hand in hand?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Crasher]

It HAS to be done after fitting new seals.

[Jonny88]

So it turns out the injector seals are shot. They are being replaced tomorrow in the hope that that solves the problem. He said something about copper springs as well?

On a less positive note, I'm told that cylinder 2 lobes and followers are significantly worn. The garage thought (if I continue to drive the car) that it will need a new camshaft in 10-15k miles. I'm confused because it had a new camshaft with all the bits and bobs back in April (6k miles ago). Would the issue with cylinder 2 not have been apparent back then?? And furthermore, it's worrying that it's worn that badly in the last 6k miles!! I have been advised to sell it ASAP if I want to avoid spending a lot more money on it.

Pretty livid I spent the thick end of £1800 on it 4 months ago for it to fall apart again.

[Crasher]

Was the cam used in April genuine or aftermarket?

[Jonny88]

To my knowledge Crasher, genuine. But you might be able to tell me more.

The record of work states: "cylinder head rebuild with new camshaft, bearings & lifters - £650"

Any clues?

[Crasher]

No way genuine, after-market cheese camshaft.

A few genuine prices

Cam £480

Eight lifters £205

Ten bearing halves £64

So major parts £750 alone.

[Jonny88]

Thanks crasher. The £650 was just parts - no labour in there. Definitely still aftermarket?

[Crasher]

Definitely not unless they charged you less than what they paid for them. Do you have a full itemised parts list?

[Jonny88]

Yes I do but it doesn't state whether parts are genuine or not, nor does it give any manufacturer info.

Car now running again, injector seals were to blame. Planning to sell as its costing me too much though.