Just moved from 140bhp to 170bhp Sport-what are the differences?

[phil140]

Just sold my 2006/56 2.0 TDi SE saloon (92k) which had a remap (180bhp supposedly) and i happened upon a 2006/56 2.0TDi 170bhp Sport (52k) at the auctions on Friday and found myself buying it without much thought. I might add that i buy hundreds of vehicles a year to be sold at our family owned car showroom so the risk was a somewhat calculated one.

What are the main differences between the 140 unit and the 170 engine? I suspect that it is a little more than a different engine map in the ECU.

The 170 drives superbly and feels as quick and sorted as the 140bhp (with 180 remap) i have just got out of. There is always a reason why someone chops a car in for another one and sometimes it is more than wanting a newer/higher spec vehicle. One of the 1st invoices in the service history for the 170 is a 2 week old reciept for over £1100 detailing how the DPF needed replacing due to 'poor running and engine lights illuminated'. I suspect that the last old boy who owned this car did not do enough miles (or got the engine hot enough) for the DPF to regenerate. The last owner must have lost faith in the car and moved on to pastures new.

So to repeat, can any 170bhp owners chime in regarding what the differences are?

Regards,

Phil

[DSG4ME]

0-60, standard dpf and 30 extra horses, BKP vs BMR engine codes iirc although it could be BMP coded.

Personally I'd move it asap, how much did the hammer make?

[manity]

DPF ,larger turbo factory remap and different injectors as far as i can recall.

[phil140]

Thanks for the input, the hammer price was £4,900 so the car owes £5,050 all in which is pretty good against CAP clean trade price of £6,325!

It was listed as a 2.0 petrol 130bhp in the sale catalogue and came up as a 3.2 automatic on the experian data check so that put people off bidding. I am happy to take a chance and it is not uncommon for VAG group cars to be shown as the wrong model on the V5 etc. It is a UK 170bhp BMR engined car, i checked with my VW contact and all is well. I think i will buy it and run it for a few months, i am always very negative regarding diesels as they always seem to come back with horrible problems after we have sold them. I go out and procure low mileage petrol saloons and people always say that if they were diesel they would have bought it. A lot of people out there do not understand about the added running costs of a modern diesel with DPF failures, DMF problems etc.

It sounds like the 170 has quite a different engine under the bonnet than the 140 variant.

[DSG4ME]

Thanks for the input, the hammer price was £4,900 so the car owes £5,050 all in which is pretty good against CAP clean trade price of £6,325!

It was listed as a 2.0 petrol 130bhp in the sale catalogue and came up as a 3.2 automatic on the experian data check so that put people off bidding. I am happy to take a chance and it is not uncommon for VAG group cars to be shown as the wrong model on the V5 etc. It is a UK 170bhp BMR engined car, i checked with my VW contact and all is well. I think i will buy it and run it for a few months, i am always very negative regarding diesels as they always seem to come back with horrible problems after we have sold them. I go out and procure low mileage petrol saloons and people always say that if they were diesel they would have bought it. A lot of people out there do not understand about the added running costs of a modern diesel with DPF failures, DMF problems etc.

It sounds like the 170 has quite a different engine under the bonnet than the 140 variant.


You're correct, I had a Superb 130TD that on the VAG supply form was a 1.8 petrol, same with the insurance, I think you'll find the 170 has Bosch injectors so nothing to worry about there, but I do believe it still has the choco oil pump drive in it, the way to check it out is to look at the chassis number and hope the number is over 50000, so if it's 04355 it's risky but 50001 should be ok, having said that I know of a 57 plate BKP that's just melted one,

As for people, don't get me started, all are qualified experts the minute they take the keys, what you have there is a poisoned chalis tbh, on one hand a good looking car, on the other a pick pocket with ambition.

[jagr]

I think you'll find the 170 has Bosch injectors so nothing to worry about there.

The 170 still needs the injectors replaced (if they haven't already been) my '07 170 Sport and (friends) '57 170 SEL estates both had the recall done earlier this year.

I had an '07 140 SE before this and the 170 is a much better driving experience.

[DSG4ME]

The 170 still needs the injectors replaced (if they haven't already been) my '07 170 Sport and (friends) '57 170 SEL estates both had the recall done earlier this year.

I had an '07 140 SE before this and the 170 is a much better driving experience.


Did they replace, or just check which ones were fitted though, VW got itself in a mess over this, and didn't know what they had fitted to what.

[jagr]

Did they replace, or just check which ones were fitted though, VW got itself in a mess over this, and didn't know what they had fitted to what.

Both had new injectors and loom

[phil140]

Did they replace, or just check which ones were fitted though, VW got itself in a mess over this, and didn't know what they had fitted to what.

From memory i think jagr is correct regarding the injectors. Luckily the last owners phone number is on the DPF invoice so i will call him in the morning to ask about the injectors and what the car was like in general. He will, of course only want to know one thing, how much it went for!

I could call VW but it takes an age and last time i had to prove i owned the car (copies of the V5 etc), plus i want to ask the last owner if he only dumped the car before the DPF fiasco. He had the cambelt done @ 46k at a decent garage so sounds like the type to look after his stuff properly. I have not personally owned a vehicle with a DPF before but am very aware of their little habits after taking phonecalls from customers who have purchased vehicles from ourselves and are having DPF constipation problems. I always buy our sales manager his personal smokers (in fact i am bidding on a B6 estate for him in morning) and he has owned a few B6 2.0 TDi's. The last one i got him had DPF fitted and although he does low miles he had no issues with it, he ran a Nissan Qashqai 2.0 diesel back in 2008 that he had DPF problems with though.

Yep, diesels are a funny mix of good news and bad realities. The amount of people that come in the showroom saying 'i need a diesel' who only cover 6k a year is frightening. We try to inform and educte them as much as we can without scaring them from making a purchase.

[phil140]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

It was all going too well. I thought i would give the 170 a run to make sure it felt ok before taxing it etc, put £40 Shell V Power diesel in and took it for a run on the Motorway for about 20 mins, car drove great with no problems. Happy that the car was ok i then taxed it for 6 months at the Post Office. Started driving again and bong the DPF warning light came on, i read the manual and drove for about 20 mins in 4th gear at just under 3000rpm. Then the coil engine warning light started to flash and car went into 'limp' mode.

Obviously when the last owner spent £1,100 fitting a new DPF it did not cure the problem. Called the garage that fitted the DPF and they were pretty guarded, the chap that did the work is on holiday until Monday. I bought the car cheap enough to have this issue looked at but i will move it on if i have to. Any ideas chaps?

[jagr]

Any ideas chaps?

First step is call VW to ask whether or not the injectors have been changed.
Do you have access to VCDS? if so scan the car for errors.

[manity]

had this with mine a while back i used vcds to force a regen and it has been fine since.

[phil140]

UPDATE

Spoke to VW dealer and injector recall and valve drive recalls were done in Feb this year.

Spoke to last owner who had spent a fortune at his local garage replacing sensors and all sort of parts trying to sort the DPF light issue out. He said it would stay off for 50 miles or so and then come on again. Final straw was the garage saying it needed new DPF which was fitted and problem still persists. The garage told him they had got a 'specialist' to visit them about this issue and the 'specialist' said all the car needs is a software update at the VW dealer. I just don't want to spend money changing brand new parts like the last owner did.

[phil140]

Our workshop has a version of VCDS but i am not sure how much they use it.

The invoice from the DPF work carried out at a reputable garage states 'DPF regen burn not possible'

The problem sounds like something the garage has missed, something simple maybe?

We have had issues with Nissan DPF filters and the force regen (driving at 3000rpm on Mway) never used to work.

[manity]

forced regen can only be done through vcds must be run at between 1500 and 2500 until the % drops to 0. i had the same problem as you have and tried a long trip at about 3000 rev it didnt work and blew the Exhaust Pressure Sensor g450 which put me in limp home mode. i replaced the sensor £50 and done the forced regen and the % dropped to zero and fault light disappeared have a read of my thread. DPF problem (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?118468-DPF-problem)

[phil140]

forced regen can only be done through vcds must be run at between 1500 and 2500 until the % drops to 0. i had the same problem as you have and tried a long trip at about 3000 rev it didnt work and blew the Exhaust Pressure Sensor g450 which put me in limp home mode. i replaced the sensor £50 and done the forced regen and the % dropped to zero and fault light disappeared have a read of my thread. DPF problem (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?118468-DPF-problem)How long did you run for in 'regen mode' before the exhaust pressure sensor? Would I know if I had blown it?I did a read on my scanner and there is only one fault code which is the particulate filter code. I have taken a positive view that at least the car has new parts fitted which should rule out some causes of the problem. I am taking the car to a garage owned by someone I sometimes buy cars for. He is a VAG specialist with dealer level software, he bought the latest equipment from a VW franchise in Canada which folded. When I spoke to the last owner of the Passat he had been told by the garage that fitted all the parts that the car now just required a software update. Whatever is needed I know that my guy can do it, he mentioned ecu updates etc if needed.The last owner kept saying how much money he pumped into the car trying to fix it. He traded it in for a petrol vehicle and said he would never buy diesel again.

[DSG4ME]

How long did you run for in 'regen mode' before the exhaust pressure sensor? Would I know if I had blown it?I did a read on my scanner and there is only one fault code which is the particulate filter code. I have taken a positive view that at least the car has new parts fitted which should rule out some causes of the problem. I am taking the car to a garage owned by someone I sometimes buy cars for. He is a VAG specialist with dealer level software, he bought the latest equipment from a VW franchise in Canada which folded. When I spoke to the last owner of the Passat he had been told by the garage that fitted all the parts that the car now just required a software update. Whatever is needed I know that my guy can do it, he mentioned ecu updates etc if needed.The last owner kept saying how much money he pumped into the car trying to fix it. He traded it in for a petrol vehicle and said he would never buy diesel again.

I told you it would be a pile of 5h1t, didn't think it would be that quick, but bargain auction prices always mean unfixable problems included, now do the best thing and get the DPF taken out and re-mapped, sell the DPF on and straight after sell the car on, this is probably the 405 of the 21st century this model, I'm so glad I bought a 140 non dpf one, and this one is bad enough, I can't wait to get rid of and go back to a VX, cars nice, company isn't.

[Brydo666]

Just shy of 20K covered in my BMR Passat in 18 months now, no DPF light but I do occasionally get the car doing odd things (Like hesitation initially when accelerating, or a few drops in RPM when sitting at 20-30 steady speeds) so I'm hoping that I don't start getting these problems. I had my injectors replaced about 2K ago - no issues really to report on the car - it's got 62K on the clock now.

What about the DPF removal process? If you like the car and this is the only downside, is it worth removing? It's something I've always thought I'd do if the DPF ever needed replaced.

[phil140]

Move it on? We buy cars, fix them and retail them. I don't know how to do anything else. I can fully understand a civillian getting upset, panicing and selling a car with problems, no other car to use, don't know who to take it to etc. If cars did not break down our company would not have been trading 81 years. I could take the light off and put it back in BCA Friday, watch someone else buy it, fix it and retail'em. I can point to nearly any car and list expensive 'common' faults that particular vehicle can suffer from. Sometimes i go to pick cars up from the block and at the turn of the key the engine lets go. Sulk then commences for an hour before we buy recon engine and sort it out. My family were Rover dealers for over 50 years so as i said, we don't know anything else than to fix 'em.

[DSG4ME]

Move it on? We buy cars, fix them and retail them. I don't know how to do anything else. I can fully understand a civillian getting upset, panicing and selling a car with problems, no other car to use, don't know who to take it to etc. If cars did not break down our company would not have been trading 81 years. I could take the light off and put it back in BCA Friday, watch someone else buy it, fix it and retail'em. I can point to nearly any car and list expensive 'common' faults that particular vehicle can suffer from. Sometimes i go to pick cars up from the block and at the turn of the key the engine lets go. Sulk then commences for an hour before we buy recon engine and sort it out. My family were Rover dealers for over 50 years so as i said, we don't know anything else than to fix 'em.


Thats fair enough Phil, but these are money pits I'm afraid, like I said nice car, lousy company, if the reliability was as good as the looks, and the costs as low as the suspension then it would be the one to have, sadly it isn't and VAG are on a progressive downward slope since they stopped making the B5.5,

Mine eats oil, misfires when cold on a hot day, has some sort of deep rumble going on that gets me in one ear after a while, if I took it in I'd get the old no fault and here's your bill sir routine, turbo wails and has been since 40k, I'm sorry but this is what I expect if I bought a cheap Kia not a very expensive "premium brand" car from the dealer network, which I also think stinks at sales level, if it gets me though one more year I can say I had my money out of it and then it's bye bye VAG, all the speedo's are out so it makes the car look more economic than it actually is, VAG will play any trick to get the punter into believing he got a good deal,

Even the pricing is bad,

11 plate Insignia mid spec 15k otc £11500

11 plate Passat mid spec 15k otc £16000


px after 5 yrs

11 plate Insignia £3500

11 plate Passat £5000


£4.5k more to buy, £1.5k more in px

And the Insignia is a mile in front in the looks department, you could say the B6 vs the Vectra C was a no contest, but not now,

Anyway Phil, good luck with it mate, if I were you I'd shift asap tbh, and at BCA rather than retail it if you value repeat custom, which if I read you right, you do.

[phil140]

I strongly agree about Insignia's offering superb value for money. I buy our Sales Managers own cars and after 2 B6 Passats (both with zero issues btw) he asked me to buy a 1.8 SRI Insignia hatch after watching me wrestle with unhappy diesels and their owners. It was a real looker, lots of standard kit and although underpowered it offered ok performance through the standard 6 speed 'box. We just sold it as he had itchy feet again and we had loads of interest in it.

From my experience VW is certainly no better than anyone else regarding reliability issues. The premium you pay over other makes comes down to the branding on the vehicle. Same as clothes, sunglasses and pretty much anything else, one is buying into a perceived image.

Regarding petrol vs diesel I must have the same conversation at least 3 times a day regarding the customers false expectations of modern diesel units. Myself, I like the way diesels drive with the big, fat slug of torque and make an informed choice, I would not say it was the most logical choice!

I bought a 2.0 Jetta SE FSi on Tuesday and travelled about 100 miles in it tonight. I was blown away with how well it drove, I had previously dismissed them as the unpopular, Golf with a boot. What great value for money and they seem to make more sense, at least to me, as a petrol (and a couple of grand cheaper).

Anyways, back on topic I dropped my new Passat off at the VW specialist today and now the game begins. Got a taxi back to work, it was a Skoda Octavia 2.0 TDI with 480,000 miles showing. The owner/driver said it had hardly missed a beat, I changed the subject........

[lepopester]

Just shy of 20K covered in my BMR Passat in 18 months now, no DPF light but I do occasionally get the car doing odd things (Like hesitation initially when accelerating, or a few drops in RPM when sitting at 20-30 steady speeds) so I'm hoping that I don't start getting these problems. I had my injectors replaced about 2K ago - no issues really to report on the car - it's got 62K on the clock now.

What about the DPF removal process? If you like the car and this is the only downside, is it worth removing? It's something I've always thought I'd do if the DPF ever needed replaced.

Hi Brydo,

I've had the same odd things happening to my 170 SEL so i took it in to the garage today and they say it is probably the MAF. They are going to plug it in to their computer on Wednesday to see if any fault codes have popped up but they'll probably replace the MAF. I've had my injectors replaced and have had no problems with them. I get hesitation when accelerating but it's fine when I boot it and sometimes at idle you can feel vibrations throughout the car. Annoying but i don't want the car to die on me when on the motorway.

[Brydo666]

Hi Brydo,

I've had the same odd things happening to my 170 SEL so i took it in to the garage today and they say it is probably the MAF. They are going to plug it in to their computer on Wednesday to see if any fault codes have popped up but they'll probably replace the MAF. I've had my injectors replaced and have had no problems with them. I get hesitation when accelerating but it's fine when I boot it and sometimes at idle you can feel vibrations throughout the car. Annoying but i don't want the car to die on me when on the motorway.

Sounds like the very same lepopester, I get the same vibrations throughout the car at idle - not enough to see the RPM needle move but noticable to those in the car.

Would be interesting to know how you get on, when I bought the car I paid for an additional warranty (One of those dealership ones that has a clause for everything) but if it's something that can cause problems later on in life I'd rather get it fixed now.

[DSG4ME]

Sounds like the very same lepopester, I get the same vibrations throughout the car at idle - not enough to see the RPM needle move but noticable to those in the car.

Would be interesting to know how you get on, when I bought the car I paid for an additional warranty (One of those dealership ones that has a clause for everything) but if it's something that can cause problems later on in life I'd rather get it fixed
now.

This is probably unrelated but I'll post it anyway,

When your tank goes down to near the red mark sit on idle for five minutes with the passenger side in the camber of the kerb, sharper the better, listen for the vibration and check the rear seat for a buzzing (drivers side)

I'm mentioning this as mine misfires when cold on a warm day, starts badly sometimes sounds like the engine is off it's mounts, and the bass buzz when less than 1/4 of a tank of fuel, made worse by the camber as the fuel has then moved lower in relation to the tank pump,

Now what I'm thinking is if the tank pump is blocked or going south anyway perhaps the fuel supply is going irregular and causing the other traits. hth.

[jagr]

I have changed my fuel filter/MAF recently as I was unsure if they were causing a 'stutter' every now and again. Still did it now and then so read about a smaller holed EGR gasket which helps with the PD stutter.
I got it and fitted it on Thursday so still early days but so far seems a lot smoother and more responsive.

Pic below shows the old and new:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k192/jagrobson/photo-4.jpg

[martin1810]

That should screw up the EGR value as seen by the MAF. I'm surprised you don't have a warning light and fault code.

[jagr]

That should screw up the EGR value as seen by the MAF. I'm surprised you don't have a warning light and fault code.

I was too, I have done 100miles over the weekend (150 total since fitting it) with varied driving local and motorway and still no warning lights.

I haven't notice any stutter yet, but it only did it sporadically any way.

[phil140]

UPDATE!

Been away from the thread for a few days as sometimes everyone you ask has an idea or snippet of advice (all genuinely meant naturally) and experience has told me to try and stick to one path. Please note, i did not say it was the right path!

Regarding the DPF nightmare and stinging a little from DSG4ME's 'told you so' prediction :) (I know it was meant as very helpful, genuine advice bud, thank you.)

I took my 'project' car to a garage owned by a buddy who has all the latest VAG kit, they could not get the DPF to generate after several attempts over several days on road and rolling road. His theory was that as an aftermarket DPF had been fitted the ash level would not drop low enough for the car to force regenerate. His advice was fit a genuine VW DPF and go from there. This was not ever going to happen as the car (from a financial point of view) would then be one i may lost money on in the long run.

I then took the car to another diesel specialist who we use for problem oil smokers we have bought. One of the mechanics called me this morning to say they had got it to force regen but it took a little while. However, after he said it had regenerated the meter apparently started to go up which meant the filter was already blocking up. At this point i asked them to take the DPF out, weld up the join as OE looking as possible, perform the software update so the car never tries to regenerate the DPF that it no longer has, and re-map it using a performance oriented map, think its about 215bhp and 300lb/ft torque (same torque figure as my 2008my Impreza STI was). Total cost was £350 plus a bottle of Moet Champagne for the guy that did the job. I have the DPF removed and it looks a bit dirty but is pretty much like new with no breaks or damage like the ones on youtube etc. After looking at the filter one can see straight away how strangled the engine must be with that in its throat. I think i will hog tie it up and pull little pieces off at a time, trying to cause it as much misery as possible.

I tried to find out as much as poss about future changes on the MOT test and a company who provides the DPF delete 'software' to trade end users mentioned that this year the regs were changed so that cars made after 2008 would not pass the MOT if the DPF had been removed. I am not sure how true that is but it was the only word of warning when i asked around if there was any probs passing the MOT. As far as i know diesel cars are tested on the MOT to see how much smoke they produce, not on the C02 figure? Anyways i would not have done it if i could not 'get' it through the MOT. I think the 2008 onwards comment came from the Euro5 emmision commitments which manufacturers have to conform to.

Result is i am very happy, drove the car tonight on a journey i make every week on the Motorway and 'A' roads and it is the shizzle. The power delivery is smooth and refined now, 70-100mph comes up stupid fast and over 45 miles i averaged 48mpg. The good news is that the map restricts the big twist action in 1st and 2nd gear as it would just break traction (or try to). When you put the hammer down on the M-Way it just takes big chomps out of the air in front of it and the mph needle swings round as smoothly as the seconds hand on my Planet Ocean. It is like driving a different car compared to the one i bought a couple of weeks ago and i can still make the figures work no problem when i come to sell it.

In short i did exactly what DSG4ME told me to do! Remove DPF+Re-Map and sell it! Only i changed the last bit to sell it in a few months.

Peace, out.

[Gary03]

What a great outcome. Ive been toying with the idea of selling my trusty 03 plate B5.5 and ive been looking at buying a B6 140 Highline but all this is putting me right off!!
What really boils my pis is, why the hell do they have to take a good engine and strangle the exhaust with a dam filter? Pluss all he associated electronic BS just to make it even more unreliable! Bloody tree huggers have alot to answer for!:aargh4:

[TonyTDI130]

HI the same thing has happned to My audi a4 2.0 tdi170 this months turned out the EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation valve) had stuck in the shut position.. as the plastic teeth on the gearing to open and close it had worn away.. Plastic? cheapstake b'stards! so for the sake of the price if a die cast cog a new unit was fitted that was £250 plus fitting £450 all in.. thankfully by my local garage who i have used for years.. Audi Quoted £130 to diagnose the problem i already know existed and a further £430 in labour to fit the part..
Once that was done the DPF was put through a forced regeneration, 3500 rpm static in the garage so it got hot enough with a bottle of DPF regen fluid.. that was £10.. It now runs like a dream and is the best it has ever felt so realistically if the error cost is EGR insufficent flow the teeth on the gearing are missing on the spring loaded part. i have pictures if you want.. I am trying to buy new gear cogs so i can refurb my old EGR valve and keep on the shelf for when the new one goes in 3 years time like it will.

hope this helps a bit! ps i am not a mechanic i just take an interest in these things.

[lepopester]

Sounds like the very same lepopester, I get the same vibrations throughout the car at idle - not enough to see the RPM needle move but noticable to those in the car.

Would be interesting to know how you get on, when I bought the car I paid for an additional warranty (One of those dealership ones that has a clause for everything) but if it's something that can cause problems later on in life I'd rather get it fixed now.

Brydo,

Took it into the garage and he plugged it into the diagnostic unit and it didn't come up with a single fault (not even one for my parking sensors that just beep at me when I stick it in reverse!). He then asked where I last filled up with DERV. I told him at Sainsbury's and he said that was probably the problem. He then showed me a small jar of diesel he had extracted from a fuel filter of another diesel Passat that had filled up at Sainsburys and the fuel had separated! About 2/3rds diesel and 1/3rd water. He advised me to run the tank down to a quarter, put some diesel injector cleaner it and then fill up from a non supermarket fuel retailer. I duly did this. The car now runs smoother, quieter and with no jerkiness. Now I can't say hand on heart that is only due to Sainsburys or any other supermarket diesel but the difference is quite remarkable.

[Brydo666]

Thanks for sharing. Since I started driving diesels I've only ever filled my car up with Shell - nothing has changed but it could still need the injector cleaner.

Last weekend I actually put down a deposit on a new car - ill let this minor shuddering be someone else's problem. ;)


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[DSG4ME]

Thanks for sharing. Since I started driving diesels I've only ever filled my car up with Shell - nothing has changed but it could still need the injector cleaner.

Last weekend I actually put down a deposit on a new car - ill let this minor shuddering be someone else's problem. ;)





Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk


Should shove on in every 10k, in 1/4 to 1/2 of a tank for best results, or one in the tank and a whole one in the derv filter, although this will run off back to the tank anyway before it can all go through the inj neat.