Cannot Start 2002 Audi Allroad 2.5TDI Automatic AKE after cam belts changed

[ceilidhalfie]

I have finally completed the timing belt change. All cambelts, v-belts, tensioners and rollers together with new thermostat and water pump. Bushes on power steering bracket also changed and new bearings fitted to the air con compressor pulley. Put everything back together with lock carrier in service mode.
Fingers crossed I turned on the ignition - the engine cranks but no cylinder fires. Tried about a dozen times but nothing. This is 10 days after starting the job - ok I'm slow but I took my time trying to make sure everything done according to the manual!
Before I started the job, I ran VCDS to dynamically check the timing. It was 100%, retarded and 3.5 degrees, ie. just within spec.
When fitting the new cambelts, tensioners and roller, I had the TDC, crankshaft locking tool and both cam-locking plates and the fuel injection pump locking tool in place. On removal, two complete rotations and the crankshaft lock and cam plates all went back in again. The fuel injectionpump locking tool would not go in though. The end of a wire coat hanger did though and I could feel that the pump pulley was just short of the hole. This was the only thing slightly out of spec with the manual. The two pointers on the tensioner are aligned.
I know I can make a small adjustment to the fuel injection timing by loosening the 3 bolts on the cam sprocket and then rotating the injection pump clockwise or anti-clockwise. But should I adavance or should I retard the timing? Or is it likely to some other problem? The car started fine before the job. The engine cranks ok now and there are no warning lights on the dash.
Any comments would be most welcome.
Thanks.

[bagpipingandy]

Any fault codes?, have you left something unplugged?if you are Sure all belts and timing are correct, I think pump timing only out a slight bit would not stop it starting, I may be wrong there but i would check for fault codes, or did you remove or loosen any diesel lines? If so they are tough to bleed, crack open an injector pipe or 2 to check for diesel while cranking.

Andy

[Crasher]

Have you opened up the fuel system at all, filter, pump etc?

[ceilidhalfie]

Any fault codes?, have you left something unplugged?if you are Sure all belts and timing are correct, I think pump timing only out a slight bit would not stop it starting, I may be wrong there but i would check for fault codes, or did you remove or loosen any diesel lines? If so they are tough to bleed, crack open an injector pipe or 2 to check for diesel while cranking.

Andy

Hi Andy. I have run VCDS and it only comes up with a Climate Control Fault 00819 High Pressure Sensor (G65) 30-00 Open or short to plus. I think I may have forgotten to plug in the connector to the side of the condenser. No other codes. I will have a look again to morrow to see if I have missed something, check the pointers of the tensioner are in alignment. In the event of nothing turning up I think I might try advancing the timing - nothing to lose!
Thanks again for your comments.

[ceilidhalfie]

Have you opened up the fuel system at all, filter, pump etc?

Hi crasher & thanks for the comment. Only time I went near the fuel system was to lift the fuel filter up a bit to get to the plug at the back of the right cam for the locking plate. I also removed the WATER hose at the fuel heat exchanger to bleed the coolant fill. So no, I never opened the fuel system (I see what you are getting at - I had great problems last service (last year) getting rid of air when I changed the fuel filter. I had to crank the engine for an eternity before it fired.) Only thing I can add is that the car has not been started for 10 days - when I started this job.

[Crasher]

Give it a gentle sniff or two and try it but be bloody careful, a runaway is scary! If it runs (I use brake cleaner) it is not getting fuel, if you have screwed up the cam timing doing this will wreck it even more so take care.

[ceilidhalfie]

Give it a gentle sniff or two and try it but be bloody careful, a runaway is scary! If it runs (I use brake cleaner) it is not getting fuel, if you have screwed up the cam timing doing this will wreck it even more so take care.

Crasher, can you explain "Give it a gentle sniff or two and try it but be bloody careful, a runaway is scary! If it runs (I use brake cleaner)". I don't know what you mean. Thanks.

[kite]

A sniff if easy start ir brake cleaner.
A runaway is an engine that just keeps revving until something major breaks..

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

[bagpipingandy]

We are thinking air in the fuel, maybe as it has sat so long, or you disturbing the fuel filter, and as you have experienced, they don't like to start, it is just a hunch though. also tripple check those timing pins/locks, don't want to cause any damage. try easy start carefully as too much and the engine will rev high, even out of control, maybe safer to open a fuel line at an injector, watch while somebody turns it over until you get fuel out and retighten, do a few if there was no fuel at the 1st.

Andy

[Crasher]

If it runs on some form of accelerant into the intake you can assume you have the basic timing right so you have compression and then the problem is fuel delivery. If the system has not been interrupted you need to fault code read it, there is every possibility that the fuel pump has failed but this may not leave a fault code. I had the pump on an AKE engine fail a few weeks ago and leave no code, it turned out to have a split internal diaphragm which I had repaired at a Bosch specialist and was much cheaper than a new pump. For other people, having the pump repaired is also advantageous as it will not need recoding to the car.

[ceilidhalfie]

Crasher, Andy thanks for the comments. Before trying accelerant, I think I would like to bleed the fuel system. Looking at the manual, looks like the VAG tool 1348/3-2 is just like running a wire from the +ve of the battery to the right-hand terminal of the holder for fuse S228. I am right? If so, I could run the fuel system bleeding procedure as detailed in the manual.
This problem is very like the fuel filter change problem last year. Again I have started this job with only 1/4 full tank - never thought I would have fuel delivery problems! I am wondering if the fuel pump is indeed suspect. Running this test would ceretainly show (and hear) the fuel pump is working. When I ran VAG Com last night only got the air con fault code - which did turn out to be the connector off the condenser (so that problem is fixed). No other fault codes listed. I read in the manual that "Under certain conditions the engine control uniot switches off the pump in the fuel tank, so the pump must be activated by the remote switch (aka pice of wire in my case) when starting the engine after bleeding". I cannot recal hearing the fuel pump starting to run when I switched on the ignition.
So to me, it seems like a good start on this problem is to bleed the fuel system.
Again any comments welcomed.

[bagpipingandy]

Yes the Audi tool is just a wire with a switch, I bridged the 30A fuse the the left of the fuel pump fuse (towing electrics + even with ignition off), remember this is the in tank pump, not the fuel injector pump, it only runs when cranking or the engine running. Try a bleed, but I still thing if it is fuel you will need some easy start or bleed right up to the injectors.

Andy

[ceilidhalfie]

Andy, Crasher here is how far I have got:-
1) With ingition turned on, fuel pump in tank is not running (or heard).
2) With ignition on, Positive Feed to fuses 28 is dead. With ignition off, connected wire from +ve battery to other terminal on fuse 28 and pump is heard to be running (tank is 1/4 full).
3) Tried to bleed fuel system as per manual - after a few minutes, nothing coming out of return pipe form injection pump. Could also see no fuel in clear hose leading to injector pump.
4) Removed both in/out pipes to fuel filter - not even smell of fuel. Tried running pump with wire as in (2) above - pump runs but no fuel comes out of pipe to fuel filter.
5) Next tried gravity feeding diesel into the pipe (from fuel filter) to the fuel injection pump, with 4 fuel injectors cracked open. Tried cranking engine and there is only low pressure from the injection pump and some diesel and air leaking out of injectors. Engine does not fire.
So the fuel delivery system to the injection pump was dry.
Given there are three issues a) Positive feed on Fuse 28 is dead, b) fuel pump works by "bump starting" but no fuel delivered and c) no pressure from injection pump, I am now thinking that the ECU has somehow shutdown the fuel delivery system (does this make sense??). Is there a control module I couild try to reset with VAGCOM? I found on another forum a chap who had exactly the same issues as me after the car battery was off for 2 months whilst he fitted new cams. Unfortunately, the "expert" never really go to the bottom of the problem. He did however suggest that the coolant temperature sensor at the bottom of the radiator could be the cause. Apparently coolant temparture level has high priority when determining engine start. Now this is one connector I definitely did remove/reconnect when I removed the lock carrier. The expert's suggestion was to remove this connection (??) and try to start the car. I guess in my case I am looking for the fuel pump to start when turning on the ignition (ie.getting power to +ve feed of fuse 28) as I know there is little or no fuel in the system.
Again your comments most welcome - would be great if there is simply something needing resetting with VAGCOM!

[bagpipingandy]

No, this is fine fuse 28 only gets power while starting the engine and engine running, not ignition on only. To test while someone is cranking the engine over check for 12v at fuse 28. She's just needing bled, i could not bleed mine as per the manual same as you no fuel showed, i had exact same thoughts as you, i believe the in tank pump does not push fuel to the fuel filter, the injection pump does the pulling fuel forward and once air is in there it is difficult for it to draw anything. Open the fuel pipes again at the injectors, get somone to crank it over until fuel comes out some of them it may take a bit then tighten them all and it should go.

Andy

[Crasher]

In my imbibed state that sounds like a running but not delivering lift pump :alcoholic .

[ceilidhalfie]

No, this is fine fuse 28 only gets power while starting the engine and engine running, not ignition on only. To test while someone is cranking the engine over check for 12v at fuse 28. She's just needing bled, i could not bleed mine as per the manual same as you no fuel showed, i had exact same thoughts as you, i believe the in tank pump does not push fuel to the fuel filter, the injection pump does the pulling fuel forward and once air is in there it is difficult for it to draw anything. Open the fuel pipes again at the injectors, get somone to crank it over until fuel comes out some of them it may take a bit then tighten them all and it should go.

Andy

Hi Andy. The so called "expert" in the post I discovered stated that it came on with the ignition. However, when running VAGCOM for monthly fault code checking, I can confirm that it does not come on with just ignition (I woluld have heard the pump running!). I will certainly check the supply to fuse 28 is ok when cranking.

Good, I now think that a) the fuel pump only fills the baffle and b) feed to fuse will be ok - after I run your check.
That leaves c) the fuel injection pump. Thinking back to when I replaced the fuel filter and the hjellish job I had to start her - two days cranking with an overnight battery recharge, I think I will first remove the adapter from the filter and make sure it is full of fuel. I will also fill the pipe to the injection pump with fuel and refit it to the filter. Then I will open the four injectors again and crank till I see fuel coming out.

Next, tighten the injectors and then it is a case of cranking 15 secs, wait 30 secs and repeat till engine fires or battery gives out!

Please let me know if you think te above is sound - AND FINGERS CROSSED!
John

[ceilidhalfie]

Crasher, does this "lifter pump" deliver fuel to the fuel filter? Andy, if this pump is faulty, could this be the reason we both have trouble bleeding the fuel systems? When I was gravity feeding the injection pump the fuel (and air bubble) was moving like treacle through the clear pipe towards the injection pump - confirming it will take an age to bleed!
If this is indeed a case similar to the fuel filter change, I am more than happy to crank for two days - just to get that first, sweet-sounding partial fire of a cylinder and followed shortly by the engine firing into life!

[bagpipingandy]

Yes The pump just fills the baffle, I'm sure the manual also states this too, I don't doubt crasher though that it should lift fuel but mine also showed no signs of fuel at the filter at all. I also don't recommend the over cranking thing but it was the way I got mine started, (a lot) I was getting desperate!.

My gauge was 1/4 tank out, maybe stick some diesel in the tank too!!

Good luck, I'm sure it will burst into life

Andy

[bagpipingandy]

Crasher, does this "lifter pump" deliver fuel to the fuel filter? Andy, if this pump is faulty, could this be the reason we both have trouble bleeding the fuel systems? When I was gravity feeding the injection pump the fuel (and air bubble) was moving like treacle through the clear pipe towards the injection pump - confirming it will take an age to bleed!
If this is indeed a case similar to the fuel filter change, I am more than happy to crank for two days - just to get that first, sweet-sounding partial fire of a cylinder and followed shortly by the engine firing into life!

It is very possible they are faulty, but mine runs sweet when diesel is in it! So I am leaving it well alone, for now.

Andy

[ceilidhalfie]

After 1 day cranking no luck. Clear fuel line to injection pump is full of air, as
I would expect - air still coming from fuel tank-filter hose.
It occurs to me that all cranking engine does at this stage is to get the injection
pump bleeding the system. So to spare ip, starter & battery I am going back to
trying to bleed system as per the manual. Maybe I did not run the fuel pump long enough
first time (2 mins) - got no fuel of bleeds pipe.
Assuming pipes are empty, how long do you think I would have to run fuel pump manually (ie fuse28)
before I see fuel coming out of bleeder tube?
If above fails bleed the system I am then going to try using a hand-held
vacuum pump.
All comments welcome.

[Peter D]

The distributor pump does not prime itself you have to suck the fuel forward until the bubble stop. The Unit inject does infact prime itself. Do you not read the manual you have, it clearly states "Operate diesel suction pump -VAS 5226- until there are no bubbles in fuel drawn in.– Reconnect return pipe to injection pump (25 Nm).

The pump relies on the deisel to lubricate itself so stop cranking until you have fuel in the system.
It does not take much air to stop the pump from compressing the deisel. Regards Peter

[digger42]

I would try a vacuum pump on the return pipe from the injection pump also if the fuel tank is not full you need power to the in tank pump to keep the 'baffle pot' full - might also be worth filling the fuel filter.
This is not the voice of experiance, just thinking aloud

Regards Jeff

[Crasher]

Have you tried a little whiff of brake cleaner or Easy Start yet?

[ceilidhalfie]

The distributor pump does not prime itself you have to suck the fuel forward until the bubble stop. The Unit inject does infact prime itself. Do you not read the manual you have, it clearly states "Operate diesel suction pump -VAS 5226- until there are no bubbles in fuel drawn in.– Reconnect return pipe to injection pump (25 Nm).

The pump relies on the deisel to lubricate itself so stop cranking until you have fuel in the system.
It does not take much air to stop the pump from compressing the deisel. Regards Peter


Well. ELSAWIN manmual simply says run the fuel pump manually via fuse 28 and bleed thru the small fuel return hose from the ip. Have run this pump manuall and zippo comes out! I have not come accross ANY reference to "Distributor Pump" or "VAS-5226" ! MY MANUAL says run fuel pump via fuse socket 228 to bleed system. AND... sod all happens! Couls be my fuel pump is knackered. It is my understanding that the fuel pump only primes the baffle - when run automatically from cranking the engine. I ASSUME from the bleeding instructions, IF YOU RUN IT MANUALLY. it first fills the baffle and then continues to push fuel to the filter, thus bleeding the system. So either my fuel pump is faulty or these bleeding instructions are bollicks.

[bagpipingandy]

it is unclear from the manual if the intank pump can push to the front, my take was in the 4 wheel drive section under "suction jet pump" you get this explanation: Unlike the system employed for petrol engines, the fuel supply and fuel return pipes to/from the engine are not required for the delivery of fuel to the suction jet pumps. As on vehicles with 6-cylinder engine and front-wheel drive, the injection pump is sufficient to draw off fuel from the baffle housing in the right fuel tank chamber.

My take is the injection pump can draw or if no air is in the system the fuel can flow to the front easily, i do not think the pumps are faulty, it is just any air in there and it can be hard to get the fuel through, i think the ideas of vaccum pump to draw fuel forward is your best bet, in fact just found it: It is written in the manual how to bleed system part before the part we have read (the 6 cylinder non allroad part) it says to use tool VAS 5226 and i think this is the correct procedure for our allroads. I never saw this when i did mine and i wish i had, give it a try as this is all that is missing,

regards

Andy

[ceilidhalfie]

Having got the above off my chest, I can now tell you that I have my Audi Allroad 2002 2.5TDI Automatic AKE purring again ever so sweetly. After replacing cam belts, tensioners
and roller, v-belts with ALL rollers, tensioners, hydraulic tensioner, thermostat, water pump, renewed mounting bushes on power steering bracket, renewed bearings in pulley of air con
compressor pulley, I ran the Dynaimic Checking of the IP Timing and found it to be retard 1 degree. So no further action required. Looks like I am pretty good at reading the manual!

The non-start of the engine was nothing to do with the above job. Turned out to be a crimped o-ring in the fuel-filter which allowed air ingress - with fuel runing back
into tank. Yes yours truly botched the job last year (even though, ON READING THE MANUAL, it told me to be careful!). Here is how I discovered this:-

First, I removed the tank-filter hose at the filter end and attached it to a high-pressure electric fuel pump (much quicker than a vacuum pump!). After about 10 seconds, fuel is gushing
from the pump. Stopped pump and clamped hose and re-attached hose (with clamp still in place) to fuel filer.
Second, I connected the electric pump between the filter and the hose to the injection pump. I then broke open the little fuel return (bleeder) hose from the IP, released the above clamp
and started the electric pump. This is when I saw lots of fuel leaking from the adapter on top of the fuel filter (caused by crimeped o-ring). FItted new o-ring and restarted this phase.
Fuel and lotts of air now coming out of this little bleeder hose, When no more air, re-attached hose and stopped pump.
Third, started to crank the engine AND ALSO STARTED THE ELECRIC PUMP to push fuel to the IP. (Fuel and lots of air going through the clear hose!) I had the pump on for a few second then off,
then on, then off etc. (was worried in case the electric pump put too much pressure in the system).
THE ENGINE FIRED AND THEN STARTED ON THE FIRST CRANK! I ran it ths way for about 5 minutes. Stoped the engine. Remove the electric pump. Re-attached the filter-ip hose to the filter and
started the engine again. No further problems.
I never realised before how sweet sounding a 2.5 TDi can be! All I have to do tomorrow is fir the front bumper ands then take it a (very lcoal!) test drive!

I think I might do a proper write-up on the above "bleeding" procedure. Message to get accross - give these multi-days cranking of the engine a wide body-swereve!

[ceilidhalfie]

it is unclear from the manual if the intank pump can push to the front, my take was in the 4 wheel drive section under "suction jet pump" you get this explanation: Unlike the system employed for petrol engines, the fuel supply and fuel return pipes to/from the engine are not required for the delivery of fuel to the suction jet pumps. As on vehicles with 6-cylinder engine and front-wheel drive, the injection pump is sufficient to draw off fuel from the baffle housing in the right fuel tank chamber.

My take is the injection pump can draw or if no air is in the system the fuel can flow to the front easily, i do not think the pumps are faulty, it is just any air in there and it can be hard to get the fuel through, i think the ideas of vaccum pump to draw fuel forward is your best bet, in fact just found it: It is written in the manual how to bleed system part before the part we have read (the 6 cylinder non allroad part) it says to use tool VAS 5226 and i think this is the correct procedure for our allroads. I never saw this when i did mine and i wish i had, give it a try as this is all that is missing,

regards

Andy

Hi Andy and thanks for your comments. Seems I am too good at reading the manual and should now follow the sections that do not apply to our model! Anyways, get yourself a high pressure electric pump, disregard the manual and follow the steps in my post. If you take out the time it took me to connectd/disconnect hoses I had the engine running in 5 mins. Definitely the way to go!

I am now 3/4 way through a nice bottle of Chateau Neuf de Pape!

[bagpipingandy]

good work, glad its up and running again, enjoy the wine :) you'll be ready for it.

regards

Andy

[Peter D]

A vacuum device is much simpler and less pipework to interfer with.
Glad it's up and running again. Regards Peter

[kite]

I have followed his thread with interest, good to here another V6 diesel running sweet...

[pre_1970]

hi, i'm experiencing a very similar problem after taking a head off the have the glow plugs heli coiled. did you get your sorted?

[ceilidhalfie]

hi, i'm experiencing a very similar problem after taking a head off the have the glow plugs heli coiled. did you get your sorted?

The fuel feed issue with my Allroad was due to a crimped o-ring in the adapter on top of the fuel filter. Prior to changing the cambelts etc. I had noticed the car was difficult to start if it had not been used for a few days. After the 7 days (slow novice to the cambelt job!) it took me to finish the cambelt change etc. I could not start the engine. Due to the leak in the filter, the fuel had drained back into the tank and the fuel lines were full of air. In this state the IP is unable to prime the fuel lines quickly and the battery flattens before it ca do so.

Putting the electric fuel pump between the filter and IP allowed the fuel lines to e primed in a couple of seconds and also showed the fuel leaking out of the filter.

If you have a fuel line leak somewhere (assuming you have not disconnected the fuel filter) you could be in a similar position if the engine has not been run for a few days. Electric pump is a very quick way to prime the fuel lines.

I recently changed the fuel filter this year - but this time I used grips to clamp of the fuel feed before and after the filter. On replacing the fuel filter, engine started first crank ad continued to run.

Hope the above helps

[pre_1970]

:beerchug:Very grateful, a job for tomorrow to check for fuel. Anything is possible.

[Crasher]

Do you know that it can take an enormous amount of cranking to get an AKE going again after the fuel system has been opened up? I normally give the engine a careful sniff of brake cleaner to ease it back into life.

[ametlib]

Yes, the models earlier than 2002 had no feeding pump in the tank, on theese you can forget everything you know about bleeding a diesel engine. You need A- a bloody good battery, or B- a good head.
If you cut the bottom of a clear bottle and hang it up in the bonnet-lock, them made an arrangement to connect it to the fuel line and fill it with clean diesel, you'll have the engine running in 1 minute.
Or you can use Ceilidhalfies methode with an electric pump and do the same in 10 sec.
If you use the bottle trick it's necessary to use a vacuum pump to fill the filter before you reconnect the fuel hose

[adamss24]

Yes, the models earlier than 2002 had no feeding pump in the tank, on theese you can forget everything you know about bleeding a diesel engine. You need A- a bloody good battery, or B- a good head.
If you cut the bottom of a clear bottle and hang it up in the bonnet-lock, them made an arrangement to connect it to the fuel line and fill it with clean diesel, you'll have the engine running in 1 minute.
Or you can use Ceilidhalfies methode with an electric pump and do the same in 10 sec.
If you use the bottle trick it's necessary to use a vacuum pump to fill the filter before you reconnect the fuel hose
I always tow v6 tdi if i disturb the fueling system to minimize strain on battery, starter and injector pump- them vp44 don't like to run dry ! If auto then i would use careful jet of brake cleaner in the intake- just make sure the nozzles sprays and not dribbles ! Under no circumstances use easy start as you can strip teeth off the flywheel or hydrolock the engine, it's also dubbed "the conrod bender" !

[Crasher]

What would we do without brake cleaner? I find a Pella type pump useful for pulling fuel up through the return.