004120 - Intake Manifold Runner (Bank 2): Lower limit not reached

[wjam]

Hi All,

I have a fault, and I thought I'd fixed it. Actually i did for a month. It's not the throttle body type flap its the little inlet turbulance flaps on each bank of cylinders. 3.0TDI BKN by the way.

Anyway it's faulty again but the cause appears to be slightly different. 1st time I found the plastic gear inside the motor unit broken. So I bought a spare motor but Audi changed the plugs (Amongst other things), so i had to swap the plastic gear wheel. Bingo. working for a month but now it's stopped again. This time the motor is energized and you can watch it during startup, moves to closed position then moves back to open and throws a code. The other bank moves to closed and stays there till you blip the throttle.

SO. I have decide to either ditch it by disconnecting both (leaving the runner flaps in open position (max air)- as per BMW drivers) but I'd like to fool the motor into thinking it's still there. How can I do that?? Any ideas.
OR
if I could get a known good motor somewhere (but not Audi) I'd give it another go. Are there any aftermarket parts or can you buy from Bosch?? Or is it Siemens...

The little magnet inside that gives the motor position is weak as hell.. It's also beside the turbo so gets hot.. And magnets don't like hot. The plug is also cracked but i can deal with that OK. The non compatible one I have bought has a very strong magnet. hmmm

Fault code below, all advice grately appreciated.

regards
WJAM

004120 - Intake Manifold Runner (Bank 2): Lower limit not reached
P1018 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 144397 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 714 /min
Torque: 85.8 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Voltage: 14.06 V
Duty Cycle: 80.9 %
Duty Cycle: 88.8 %
Duty Cycle: 80.9 %

[wjam]

I found them!

http://www.vdo.com/generator/www/com/en/vdo/main/products_solutions/cars/replacement_parts/diagnostics_en.html


Online catalogue

http://webshop-cs.tecdoc.net/vdo/index.jsp?country=GB&language=en#

also do throttle bodies etc.. Have asked for a quote

cheers

WJAM

[john-mandy]

Hi wjam, i have a very similar problem to yours, though on bank 1, asb engine 3.0 litre v6, i have since noticed the fault frequency being 254, this is the maximum number my vcds counts to.

Anyway, this fault i think as been there since i purchased it second hand, so i think during my search on this forum the problem is not as terminal as one would first think, leading me to believe a fix is not a do or die decision. Please post if other forum members feel different.

The fix for this problem is a new motor, and as audi suggest a new manifold, (|they don,t seem to be able to say why a new manifold is needed other than its easier to complete the job, less hours labour i suppose.

The cost of the job at my local audi is in excess of £800, joke or what.

Well i,m not repairing in the near future, but like yourself would like to find a way of disabling this flap, without it showing a fault on vcds. looked everywhere for an alternative, your research makes the chance of that maybe more likely.

Thanks for the info.

john

[wjam]

Hi I think needing to change the manifold is a b0llox (unless the shaft that hold the flaps breaks...) The motor takes the best part of 5 minutes to change. Perhaps there is an adaption that my be required in VCDS but I don't know if that's true or how to (yet)

If you just disconnect both motors, the flaps stay fully open at all times and the car will run like a dream (or at least you won't notice the miniscule performance change at low revs)

BMW people are removing the flaps cos the actual flaps are held in with flimsy pop rivet style things that have been known to fall off... into the engine and tru the turbo and out the back causing a ton of expensive damage. I believe the Audi flaps don't drop off, but if I find any evidence they might drop off they are going straight in the bin.

So once I find out the motor cost I'll let you know. You can get them on e-bay.de but it's hard to find them unless you are fluent in German. Beware the different models of motor too.. some 4 pin, some 5 pin, not interchangeable.

I will start trawling the BMW sites to see if they managed to fool the car into not throwing a code.

cheers

WJAM

[john-mandy]

Thanks wjam,

i had the car into my local indys, my bank 1 motor now doesn,t work at all, although no problems with the car, the emissions are still ok, no lights on the dash, pretty much everything spot on.

I have noticed on my engine 2007 v6 asb code that the two motors differ, bank 1 slightly different to bank 2, not checked wheather 4 pin or 5,
Hope you sought your problem, i will check your replies, thanks.



john

[wjam]

Hi

One is mounted upside down (relative to the other) but normally they are the same. if they are not maybe 1 was changed before.

I have a fault light on the dash, but it's because it can't find it's reference point so it opens fully (which it seems is a little past normal range). Perhaps it's just an adaption...

Anyway more to follow

WJAM

[john-mandy]

Yes thanks again wjam, it was the indy who said they were a different design, thinking about your reply they could be the same, i,ll check mine when i have my service in febuary,

I,m lucky i,ve got a vcds and can check no other problems are resulting because of that fault, but strangely no light on the dash, and readiness showing all 0,s.

thanks again john

[wjam]

Well if it finds the initial positions it probably won't show on the dash.

I just cleared my codes (I also use VCDS) and re-started and it worked... Continued working until the engine was stopped.

On restart it failed. You can watch it hunting for what I assume is either limit at start up. But it seems that it fails to find the closed limit sometimes and defaults to open (so that the car works more or less normally)

This is why I think there might be an adaptation to learn the values.

It's actually a magnet on the end of the motor shaft with a sensor below it... Subsequently it has been changed to a magnet on one of the gear wheels, but in essence the same idea.

OR could be wiring. but when it works it keeps working as long as the car is running so I suspect less likely on the wiring.

Some of the guys here must know about Intake Manifold Runner adaptation????

cheers

WJAM

[wjam]

And more:

I found in the manual that the % error is indicative of the problem type.

If 8% is logged it indicates an electrical component error.

If 12% is logged = feedback error from "e-regulator" or the motor for normal people.

These 2 need a motor replacement

if 88% is logged = adjustment range problem which is checked during startup!!

AH HA! I was right ( my 24 years with industrial equipment did not go to waste :D)

Furthermore it says it could be free play in the actuator rod (no.. mine is pretty good no slop)

Or stiffness of the adjuster.. err depends how stiff is considered too stiff, but I WD40'd it and it worked.. 3 times in a row!! So I did the other side for good measure.

And it also says to check wiring.

So to me that sounds like on the check at start up, if it draws to much current (because of stiffness) it might well throw the same code. Or it just didn't quite make the position.. Maybe only by a fraction..

Anyway, check what the percentage says and that will give you a good indication

cheers

WJAM

[john-mandy]

I,m sorry wjam but i,m not that far advanced with vcds yet, not really sure how to get the values on my pc.
Alot of members sing the praises of the vcds, but theres very little info on the vcd section and postings can somtimes be counted on one hand over a 3 day period.

So i will when the time allows learn as much as i can, hoping that someone may just post that little bit of info you may need.

To be fair your op and replies have been spot on, and i,ve learnt just that little bit more about my car, thankyou kindly.


john

[wjam]

hi john,

If you take a look at the fault code I posted at the top, you'll see some percentages for duty cycle.

1 of them is 88%

If you go to VCDS and Select control module. look at engine 01 meas. blocks 36 (bank 1) and 37 (Bank 2), you can see what is happening as you run the car.. Blip the throttle and the actual duty cycle will drop to approx 20% which is wide open inlet flaps. The working range is 20 -80 %

For me bank 2 was always at 88% when it failed. but would work normally IF it initialized at startup.

Since the WD40 I have had no problems.. only 1 day... but the car was started and stopped 6 or 7 times, so something worked.

The insides of the motor contain a cog on the motor a reducing gear and a spring loaded final gear that is the output. The spring return it to open position in the event of motor failure.. meaning the car will run OK

The parts are not lubricated at all.. The gears are a PTFE plastic mix that seems to be designed to be maintenance free and self lubricating.. but i wonder.

You are correct about VCDS.. there is not a ton of info, and that is mostly because the 3.0TDi is not sold in USA. I did discuss with them on Touareg 3.0TDI, but the measurement blocks and adaptations don't seem to match the A4. The Q7 is too new in US for them to have any meaningful data, and all the Audi forums have limited info on the bigger engines .

But the more I dig the less of a mystery it becomes. There are a number of very poor designed parts on there that are typically cheap and plastic or low tech but not available separately... To me it looks like a marketing decision to get you back to the dealer, to try to flog you a super expensive repair or offer what appears to be a reasonable trade in considering the car needs an expensive (for you) repair.

I tried Audi to repair mine , but having been lied to parts charged for that weren't replaced etc etc.. i have decided to keep away from them.

They also suggested my car was VERY old and that it wasn't worth fixing and I should consider a new one. It's 2005 < 100000 miles and I'd just bought it. So you can imagine I wasn't bet pleased.

Anyway, it's a great motor , but if it gives me any serious issues again I will get rid of it. 3ltr diesels should be doing 1/2 a million kms without problem.. Like the Merc E class 320CDI taxi I was in the other week. 450k kms and running like new. That's what i expect.

cheers

WJAM

[john-mandy]

Thanks again wjam,

I will check my motor when work allows and have a look at the cog, i might be able to design a stronger cog, maybe out of aluminium, i work as a toolmaker by trade and have access to a wire eroder, you may know but this will shape complex cogs etc.
If it proves sucessful i will see what i can do for you.

Because of work load it won,t be for at least two months, but i will investigate, i,ll pm you the results.

By the way audi cardiff quoted me £198, not sure if that includes vat for the motor, i would have gone for that, but wasn,t sure it could be calibrated, apparently audi set them with a dedicated audi tool, maybe ex audi technicians can comment on that.

Here are the duty cycle readouts my scan reveal, engine not running.


Freeze Frame:
RPM: 882 /min
Torque: 113.1 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Voltage: 13.98 V
Duty Cycle: 8.3 %
Duty Cycle: 80.9 %
Duty Cycle: 80.9 %
Readiness: 0 0 0 0 0

Anyway thanks for taking the time to reply.


john

[wjam]

Ok thanks... No hurry my end, as it's working, but I'd be interested to see what the possibilities are on the gear. I think bank 2 close to turbo gets a fair bit hotter than bank 1 and the plastics get brittle.

Your scan is saying 8% so that's an electrical or component issue... Maybe not serious (such as a voltage a bit low or something) hence no dash light.

I'd just start the car and watch the motor. It should move slowly down/up a bit and then quickly take up a position somewhere close to closed (on bank 2 that's the actuator pushed down)

s your fault is showing electrical / electronic, it's pretty certain a motor will fix it. Like I say 5 minute job

3 Allen screws and the pop the linkage with a flat screwdriver. Disconnect the electrics with the motor loose.. much easier that way.

cheers

WJAM

[john-mandy]

Ok, i would be tempted to have a go at a new motor, but was put off by a reply given by crasher that it would need some kind of audi tooling to reset the limits on the actuation, i suppose it must need to know how far to close/open, or is it a simple case of when it reaches resistance it shuts down, maybe a forum member out there who has completed the job sucessfully.


On a different note we spent some time in france last july, 3 weeks of awsome driving and touring down the atlantic coast, can,t wait for this july.

[JLBmatic]

Holy thread resurrection..!

OK I have the same issue.... have changed the swirl flap arms and ball joints but the issue still comes back.... this is what my scan revealed:

1 Fault Found:

004120 - Intake Manifold Runner (Bank 2)
P1018 - 001 - Lower limit not reached
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 170
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 126203 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Torque: 0.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Voltage: 12.01 V
Duty Cycle: 20.5 %
Duty Cycle: 88.8 %
Duty Cycle: 20.5 %


Readiness: 1 1 0 0 0



I'm going to go for it and change the offending manifold and maybe new actuator..... there is a supplier on ebay in Germany (autosmotorcraft) who seem to have a good range of options.... has anyone here used them?

Also, which is Bank 2 as you sit in the drivers seat? Left of Right?

Many thanks
James




Edit: Via my VAGCOM and disconnecting each actuator one at a time and scanning the faults, I believe Bank 1 is on the Right Hand Side of the car as you sit in the driver seat (ie nearest the turbo).


ALso, I swapped the actuators over and can confirm they are exactly the same units & part number if that helps others.

The Bank 2 which was showing the fault above definitely feels looser compared to the inlet flaps on the other bank.

[Big_daddy077]

when logging on vag.com group 36 and 37 , is it requested vs actual? the field names?

had bank 2 fault:



004120 - Intake Manifold Runner (Bank 2)
P1018 - 001 - Lower limit not reached
Freeze Frame
Fault Status: 01100001
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 260149 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2017.05.02
Time: 14:07:16


Freeze Frame
RPM: 0 /min
Torque: 0.0 Nm
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Voltage: 12.54 V
Duty Cycle: 20.5 %
Duty Cycle: 88.8 %
Duty Cycle: 20.5 %


Ive did some video logging on vcd, if any one can check if anything wrong .


idle to Fast Rev Test


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2li1NVe4_gs


Output Test Bank 1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFiO_mwJr0A

Output Test Bank 2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WqiS6sXag

Thanks in advance :Blush2: