Problems in the Snow is it car or tyres

[andayton]

About a month ago I fitted Goodyear Eagle F1 A Tyre Size 235/45Y17

After looking on this forum I decided to give them a try.

However since the snow I am struggling for grip!!! I bought the car in January so it has not been out in the snow until now.

What I would like to ask is the car normally bad in snow or are the tyres the problem??

If I now need to change to winter tyres , what are the best?

Thanks to anyone who can help:1zhelp:

[Quatrelle]

'Ordinary' tyres of any make won't work in the snow - no manufacturer will ever claim they do. If you want to drive in snow, fit snow tyres, chains or studs. Snow tyres won't work on ice.

The only time ordinary tyres will work on snow is if you're the first on it, it's not laying on ice or previously packed snow, and if it's not very much. Even then you shouldn't drive at any speed.

[Chrisman]

Generally I've found the thinner the tyre the better for snow as it cuts through better than wider tyres staying on top.

I believe Martins site has a nice section showing you tyre size alternatives for the passat. ;)

[andayton]

Thanks for that Chris, what is the address for chris's site please?

I know that narrower tyres are better but I am just a bit disappointed in the car as other cars I have had on tyres the same size performed better!!!

[Chrisman]

Here you go mate this is Martins page on tyre combinations.
Have a good look on his website it's a brilliant source of information. ;)


Chris

p.s Have you experimented with switching the ESP off in the snow???

[andayton]

Thanks Chris

Yes tried with and without ESP but still not happy with the grip

Andrew:beerchug:

[Amsel]

Andrew

Owning a BMW and a Passat I can say that winter tyres will make a huge difference.

I have put GoodYear Ultragrip 7+ on the Bm and left the Passat with the standard Dunlop SP01's.

The Bm will now go places that the Passat can't, the difference in grip especially from a rear wheel drive car is unbelievable. At the moment I have about 8" of snow to get through to get to a main road.

Well worth sticking winter tyres on the car, personally I am now convinced that every car should have winter tyres on during the winter months, no doubt it would reduce the chaos that we are seeing on the news at present.

[Quatrelle]

In a lot of northern European countries, snow tyres are obligatory in winter. You can be fined for not having them and/or causing a traffic 'disturbance'.

If it goes on weatherwise in the UK I wonder how long it will be before insurance companies start to question paying out for snow-related accident damage to drivers who don't fit them?

[podwin]

I've got a set of winter tyres on my Passat and the improvement is amazing, it stops and goes as normal.

[Quatrelle]

I've got a set of winter tyres on my Passat and the improvement is amazing, it stops and goes as normal.

Exactly - it's got to be the way to go!

[andayton]

Thank you for all the replies:approve:

I fitted MARIX ECOTRACs (225/45/R17) today and the car is now handling superb.

It just ploughs through the snow and is a different car altogether.

I love my Passat again!!!!!!

Thank you everybody and I would recommend the above tyre 100% I could not believe the difference

Andrew

[patomlin76]

For a while I've been viewing this thread and thinking, I've never had a problem in snow...

Then this evening after the large amount of snowfall in York, I could not get up the slight incline near where I live. For the past week I've managed it no problem, but tonight it was hopeless. Slipping all over the place at the front - ESP on or off. Embarrasingly, other cars were managing fine - vectra, mondeo, polo and volvo. I was trying it in 2nd or 3rd too, so didn't know what else to do.

I have pirelli tyres on the front and wondered whether anyone has come to the conclusion of car v tyre? TBH if it is tyres, I'll have to live with it as they're 6 months old and not due a change for another year or two.

Why is it so hopeless in the snow?! Mazda 6 was OK before this, and that didn;t have ESP either.

Paul

[andayton]

Hi Patomlin,

Know how you feel my goodyear tyres were only fitted on 5th Nov!!!!

They are now in the garage. My advice would be to fit the Marix tyres above . They honestly are the business, You will leave all these other cars standing.

I drove home tonight in a blizzard with around 3 inches on the road and up a steep hill to my house and it never slipped once!!

Andrew

[logiclee]

I'm going to ring my local tyre fitter in the morning to see what he has in. My car only has 3000 miles on it but I can't even get to my house, my wife doesn't have a problem in her Fabia.
So I've been borrowing my Dad's Jeep but I can't do that all winter if this is going to continue.

So what will fit the standard 17" wheels? Doesn't seem to be many 235/45x17 fitments but more 225/45x17 which would be ok.
What about 205/50x17?

Has everyone fitted all four or just the front two? I suppose just the front two could be interesting during heavy braking in slushy conditions. Might give the ESP something to think about.

Cheers
Lee

[andayton]

Hi Lee,

According to my local guy , it is difficult or impossible to get the 235's as winter tyres.

The 225's fit perfectly , that is what I bought today. The 205's I don't know about but would imagine that they would be too narrow.

They also recommend the 4 tyres not two as they say it is better and less dangerous.

I also talked to the local Kwik- Fit guy yesterday(who I know well) and he said they are not allowed to fit only 2 due to safety.

The Marix Eco's I fitted are remoulds and are excellent (check out their website) As I had already spent arount £530 on Goodyears at the start of the month I was well impressed with the £275 for the Marix tyres.

When you see the tread on the Marix you will see why they make such a difference.

The local guy I bought them off is a good friend of my brother so he would not tell me that fitting the 4 is better if it were not.

Hope this helps

Cheers Andrew

Ps they work great even with the ESP on

[borakev]

If it goes on weatherwise in the UK I wonder how long it will be before insurance companies start to question paying out for snow-related accident damage to drivers who don't fit them?

A friend of mine put some on his superb this winter on a set of 16 inch steelies instead of his 17 inch alloys. When he rang his insurance company about it, the response was 'that will be £120 please sir' all because they wernt the standard spec. Never mind that he has made his car safer in wintery conditions.

Cheers
Kev

[patomlin76]

Will tread patterns on normal summer tyres make any difference? When I had new tyres fitted (pirelli), I rotated the set on the front (dunlop Sport) to the rear, and put the pirellis on the front.

Looking at the tread, pirelli has a sort of |||| tread, whereas the dunlops have a //|||\\ . Is this going to help in any way, or not.

On a slightly more positive note, another car got stuck going up the hill near my house. May be the others got lucky and found a good route up - I've churned up so much now that no matter how you attempt it, you get 'dragged' back into the channels I've made.

So perhaps, it's just the sheer depth and amount of snow, on top of snow, on top of compacted snow, on top of ice, that's the problem...

[andayton]

Hi Patomlin,

I don't think rotating will make much difference.

I was told it is a combination of the width of the gap in the tread and a softer more flexible rubber on the winter tyres.

ie. with softer more flexible rubber the tyre flexes and therefore the tyre cleans itself


Andrew

[quattro1]

Hi all.

I've been following this thread and want to ask:

Should I fit winter tyres on a 4Motion? (best answered by someone with a 4Motion/Quattro snow/ice experience)

ps - I haven't driven my 5-day-old 4Motion in the snow yet for fear of sliding off the road, though I am sure it's designed with the slippery conditions in mind.

Thanks.

[phil140]

According to the industry experts a two wheel drive car on winter tyres is about as good as a 4x4, the ultimate would be four wheel drive with dedicated winter tyres. I have just taken in a Subaru Forester turbo all wheel drive which i am using in the snow, it has expensive (reciept for £600 in glovebox) sport tyres which have only covered a thousand miles. Even with Subaru's proven all wheel drive it is only just better than an average front wheel driver. The tyres on a vehicle are the only small bit of contact it has with the road, you can have any manner of traction enhancing technology but it is the tyres that make the difference.

[BenR]

I've driven hire cars when skiing in France with winter tyres and yes, they're amazing. We've tried to get snow tyres for my wife's Citroen C1 but can't find any, they are 155/65 R14, which is a rare size even in standard compound. Even a Feu Vert tyre depot I called in France says they're rare. Might try these Marix tyres mentioned above.

Mind you the little C1 is pretty good in snow; it has narrow tyres so the ground pressure is good. I'm getting along fine with the Passat which has Michelin Primacy Pilots, you just need momentum.

[patomlin76]

Maybe it was a bit of a lack of driving skill in my case - this morning I thought about it and kept the revs high, and minute clutch control and it was fine. Maybe a little impatience crept in last night thus the smell of clutch and burning rubber!

[lc25]

Well after looking to buy some winter tyres before this epic weather hit i wasn't quick enough, and the main reason was i couldn't decide which tyres and on which wheels. I have a 2.0 TDI Sport Passat with 17s so my question is what size alloys and what tyres should i be getting ? i'd like the best set up i can get but if i change the size of the alloys don't i get other problems ? Also wheres the best place to get the tryes from ? im a bit worried about buying a set of alloys off ebay and then tyres separate i get all confused with the different sizes of tyres which fit on the same alloys (can anyone explain this ?)

Any help much appreciated.

PS kinda looking forward to getting a winter set :biglaugh:

Update: I've found a full set of 17's for sale which are the same as my current alloys, this might all fall into place unless i get advised differently.

[RicardoA4Sline]

You would actually be best off fitting 16" wheels as they have a narrower footprint and thus will grip better on snow, us 205/55/16 tyres are a heck of alot cheaper than 17s. Only problem is that you should notify insurer as you have changed size ( albeit for safety) and some are being stupid and asking for more money despite the wheels being smaller and much less desirable!

I have a set on mine for £88 for 4 alloys and then £220 delivered for some kumho kw27 snow tyres (16s same as normal) an they have been phenomenal through this snow

[Quatrelle]

A friend of mine put some on his superb this winter on a set of 16 inch steelies instead of his 17 inch alloys. When he rang his insurance company about it, the response was 'that will be £120 please sir' all because they wernt the standard spec. Never mind that he has made his car safer in wintery conditions.

Cheers
Kev
According to the Association of British Insurers (UK radio 4 today) the insurance companies should not charge extra, so long as they are in keeping with the car manufacturer's agreed sizes. If Skoda, like VW, also fit 16" wheels to their cars the £120 should be returned. Completely out of order.

[gamichea]

I'm a fan of Goodyear F1 Assymetric for summer use. Had some on my B6 Sport saloon and they were not good in winter conditions, albeit loads better than the Conti SportContact 3s my CC came on which are little more than grooved slicks. Will probably replace the Contis with F1 Assymetrics in due course,

Currently running the CC on Nokian winter tyres in the VW recommended size of 205/50 x 17. The transformation is amazing. www.mytyres.co.uk (http://www.mytyres.co.uk) supply steel wheel & winter tyre sets for most cars. Their website gives suitable size combinations.

I wrote to my insurer (Liverpool Victoria) giving them full details of the wheels which are TUV certified for the CC specifically for winter tyres and for the tyres which meet VW's recommendations for winter tyres for the CC. Their immediate response was there would be no impact on cover or premium.

Autoexpress have recently published their latest tyre tests online with a section specifically devoted to a selection of winter tyres.

[Quatrelle]

I've just fitted Continentals on my Passat, and was trying to explain the design of the tread to someone to emphasize how (even more) useless they'd be on snow. 'Grooved slicks' sums it up nicely! Very F1....

[gamichea]

And french for grooved slicks is............?

[johnloaderuk]

I've just fitted Continentals on my Passat, and was trying to explain the design of the tread to someone to emphasize how (even more) useless they'd be on snow. 'Grooved slicks' sums it up nicely! Very F1....

Sounds like Continental Conti Sport (or Sport Contact) tyres, I have these on my Passat - a bit like skating on ice for cars this time of year. Great in the summer and in rain, but they act like skates or skis when it's icy or snows.

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/continental/automobile/themes/car-tyres/standard-car-tyres/contisportcontact/contisportcontact-3/contisportcontact-3.html

[Crasher]

I had some very very unpleasant sliding experiences last week in the snow, one was on Avon’s and the other on BF Goodrich. My car has Uniroyal RS1’s on the front and RS2’s on the back and was very sure footed in last weeks snow and in a serious covering we had very early this year. Personally I feel, like clothes make the man, tyres make the car.

[Quatrelle]

And french for grooved slicks is............?
Errm.....pass!

[logiclee]

. The transformation is amazing. www.mytyres.co.uk (http://www.mytyres.co.uk) supply steel wheel & winter tyre sets for most cars. Their website gives suitable size combinations.

.

Any advice on wheel bolt fitment?

I'm looking at getting a set of steel wheel & Winter tyres from mytyres but I believe my current alloy wheel bolts will also need to be changed.

Cheers
Lee

[Quatrelle]

Any advice on wheel bolt fitment?

I'm looking at getting a set of steel wheel & Winter tyres from mytyres but I believe my current alloy wheel bolts will also need to be changed.

Cheers
Lee
Don't know if it's any help, but my spare is a steel wheel which obviously uses the same bolts as the alloys.

If these people are selling dedicated sets I can't see any reason why you should need to change them. Or are your wheels non-standard?

[logiclee]

Don't know if it's any help, but my spare is a steel wheel which obviously uses the same bolts as the alloys.

If these people are selling dedicated sets I can't see any reason why you should need to change them. Or are your wheels non-standard?

No wheels are standard, just going on what the handbook says.

Cheers
Lee

[gamichea]

Any advice on wheel bolt fitment?

I'm looking at getting a set of steel wheel & Winter tyres from mytyres but I believe my current alloy wheel bolts will also need to be changed.

Cheers
Lee

Unable to help you, I'm afraid, because no steels were available for the CC when I bought back in the summer. Mytyres were very quick to respond to my e-mail seeking confirmation steels really were unavailable so I'd expect they would be equally quick to answer a question on wheel bolts from someone far more likely to yield some business than I was.

Good luck

[Amsel]

Well if anyone out there is still wondering if winter tyres are worth it then after today I can give a direct comparison between our Passat on standard Dunlop SP01 summer tyres and our BMW 118d on Good Year Ultargrip 7+ winter tyres.

To be brief the Passat is about 1/4 mile away from my house stuck on a hill in about 8" of snow that dumped itself on Glasgow today, half on the pavement and half on the road.

The Bm meanwhile drove by everything without even a hint of traction control and is now sitting up the drive having reversed up the hill from the street to get there.

I have since tried to dig the Passat out but have given up for the night. Guess whats on Santas list for the Passat now!

[Crasher]

That says a lot about winter tyres!

[lumox]

I'm looking at getting winter tyres put on steel wheels for my passat.

Looking on e-bay there appears to be a distinct lack of 16" Steelies!!

Anyone know if the 6.5J T4 or T5 transporter steels have the correct pcd and offset for a B6 passat?

[podwin]

I got a set of Passat 16" alloys like the ones I've already got for £100, which wasn't much more then steels, they are also more abundant.

[RicardoA4Sline]

Yup this is what I did too, full set for £88 the place I got them from said that they are always putting bugger wheels on cars to sell them, as no one likes the smaller wheels. No need to advise the insurance company as they are the same size and type

Then they wonder why they cant get off the drive in snow

[logiclee]

Well change of plan due to delivery times, I've placed an order for some direct replacement winter tyres to put on my original alloys.

So battle commences with insurance company (AXA). We first debate that winter tyres are a modification, no I say page 298 of the handbook recommends fitting winter tyres in months were the temperature drops belows 7degrees and there is a risk of snow and ice. So it's a recommendation by the vehicle manufacturer not a owner modification, they eventually agree but question the size and speed rating. Without getting to complicated they know getting W rated (168mph) winter tyres is not possible AFAIK but VW also have this covered. So I inform AXA that Page 26 of the handbook tells you how to select winter tyres in the cars menu and program in the speed rating. So I can tell the car I have H rated winter tyres fitted and the car will give me an audible and visual warning if I try to go over 130mph in the ice and snow. http://www.caravantalk.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif
After speaking to Mr Supervisor they have agreed no charge as I'm just complying with the handbooks recomendations.

I'm having the exact same size tyres fitted to my standard alloys but the handbook does go further and suggests fitting smaller steel wheels and narrower winter tyres to allow snow chains to be fitted if required. The handbook even gives the wheel diameter, hole pitch and offset as well as the tyre parameters needed. AXA wouldn't have any of this though and said changing wheels would be a modification even if VW recommended wheels and tyres were used.


Crazy stance the UK insurers have taken when they are wanting to charge extra for manufacturers safety recomendations.

Cheers
Lee

[johnloaderuk]

Winter tyres and insurance has been discussed here

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=110470

Below is what I posted on the Golf mk6 forum last week

Winter tyre tests here

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/product...tyre_test.html

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/still...ter-tyres.aspx

A slight concern is those that do not inform their insurance company they have modified their cars by fitting different size wheels and often narrower tyres than standard. Despite the obvious increased safety factor, if you haven't informed your insurance company you may find you are not covered should you be unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident, as you car has been 'modified'. You would have thought that they should give you a refund as the chance of having an accident during the winter months must surely be greatly decreased, but any excuse to make you pay more I suppose. Someone on the forum (borakev ?) knows of someone who was asked for another £120 when they informed their insurance company they were using winter tyres !!!.

http://www.planestrainsautomobiles.c...-car-insurance

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/tax...2/winter-tyres

Google 'insurance winter tyres'.

[martin1810]

The passat, like any car has a type approval and this includes a list of tyre/wheel combinations. If you fit any of these tyre/wheel combinations you are not modifying the car.
The "jobs worths" at the insurance company probably don't know that.

[Quatrelle]

I refer you to my post #25 above.

[johnloaderuk]

The passat, like any car has a type approval and this includes a list of tyre/wheel combinations. If you fit any of these tyre/wheel combinations you are not modifying the car.
The "jobs worths" at the insurance company probably don't know that.

Try telling the insurance companies that - any excuse to make you pay more.

[martin1810]

Try telling the insurance companies that - any excuse to make you pay more.
Totally agree...just a way to make money.

[lumox]

Had my winter tyres fitted yesterday to my standard 16" alloys.
I went from 215/55/16 97W summer tyres to 205/55/16 91H winter tyres, following the type approval list (thanks for that, Martin :D ).

Just called Admiral, and apparently they don't consider winter tyres to be a modification, so there's no additional premium.
Unfortunately, no refund either!!! ;)

Hopefully, before spring I can find a nice set of Monte Carlos to use as summer wheels.

[podwin]

I bought some Meteo HP from Maragoni..

http://mastershina.com/photo_tyres/Marangoni_MeteoHP.jpg

They are on the same wheels, and exactly the same size, including being a 97 extra load tyre, the only difference is they are speed rated H.

I have no intention of telling the insurance company because I refuse to accept an assessor would void the policy based on this one fact alone. They wouldn't even notice.

[johnloaderuk]

I have no intention of telling the insurance company because I refuse to accept an assessor would void the policy based on this one fact alone. They wouldn't even notice.

If you have an assessor look at the car after an accident they could use it as a 'get out' as it's not within spec. Thats what they're paid to look for. Don't for one minute think they wouldn't notice, not to mention that you would then be personally liable for any claim against you. It's not worth the risk, and could amount to driving without insurance should they decide to get awkward about it. Best to play safe and make sure everything is legal.

[logiclee]

Any hassle from the insurance company then refer them to this link.

http://www.smmt.co.uk/articles/article.cfm?articleid=22819

Maybe a bit more dificult if you are changing sizes and wheels though.

Cheers
Lee

[podwin]

Any hassle from the insurance company then refer them to this link.

http://www.smmt.co.uk/articles/article.cfm?articleid=22819

Maybe a bit more dificult if you are changing sizes and wheels though.

Cheers
Lee

Great Link:beerchug:

[gamichea]

If you have an assessor look at the car after an accident they could use it as a 'get out' as it's not within spec. Thats what they're paid to look for. Don't for one minute think they wouldn't notice, not to mention that you would then be personally liable for any claim against you. It's not worth the risk, and could amount to driving without insurance should they decide to get awkward about it. Best to play safe and make sure everything is legal.

x2. Don't forget Plod might be inspecting the car as well. Its always best to manage away potential hassle before it occurs. Personally I would not be wanting to have to fight with the insurance company at the same time as dealing with any other post accident issues.

[hotmetal]

In a lot of northern European countries, snow tyres are obligatory in winter. You can be fined for not having them and/or causing a traffic 'disturbance'.

If it goes on weatherwise in the UK I wonder how long it will be before insurance companies start to question paying out for snow-related accident damage to drivers who don't fit them?


I agree. I am staggered and disgusted that some insurance companies are raising premiums for people declaring snow tyres, and refusing to pay out on accidents involving cars fitted with snow tyres where these had not been declared! This despite overwhelming evidence that cars fitted with snow tyres are much less likely to be involved in accidents. Insurers are lower forms of intelligence, obviously. :aargh4: You do your best to avoid an accident and they want to charge you for the benefit? Idiots!

Here's what the IAM have to say about the pros and cons of winter tyres

http://www.iam.org.uk/latest_news/wintertyrestyresomeoranentyrelygoodidea.html
http://www.iam.org.uk/driving_tips/wintertyreadvice.html

I have a Golf GT TDI 170. Even with the winter mode enabled it is a nightmare in the snow. Not so much because of the torque but more due to the sheer weight and the wide tyres. My mate has similar problems with his Eos. However, he fitted some of those snow socks to his Octavia 130 TDi and said he could drive up and down snowy steep hills without any problem. Worth considering if you can still get any. Apparently many stockists have sold out and they're double price on ebay. :mad:

[gamichea]

I decided against socks because they are really limited to short distance, low speed use. Once you have got to the treated part of the road network they should be removed. So a lot of mucky fitting/removing to be done in the course of a winter and you don't get the general improvement in cold conditions operation that winter tyres bring to the party.

[Quatrelle]

I agree. I am staggered and disgusted that some insurance companies are raising premiums for people declaring snow tyres, and refusing to pay out on accidents involving cars fitted with snow tyres where these had not been declared!

Have a look at my post #25 in this thread. People should not be conned.