brakes stopped working coming upto the lights!

**ritter1** · 02-05-2009,12:30 PM

Hi, I have a mk3 golf 1.4 (AEX engine code) with the standard brake setup; front pads and discs, rear drums. It had been sat doing nothing for about a year because we bought it when my mums car was in the garage for a few months, but when her car was fixed, we kept the golf so I could have it when I passed my test. I started driving it about 9 days ago and everything has been fine, even had its MOT about a month ago and passed easily (except for emissions but it passed on the second go), but went out in it today and as I came upto the lights and I touched the brakes there was a clunk sound (not sure how to explain the sound) and the brakes completly failed. They just stopped working and I had to stop the car using the handbrake. I parked it up off the road and checked around each wheel and in the engine bay but no sign off any leaks or anything so I dont think any brake lines burst or anything and the brake fluid level looks perfectly fine. No lights came up on the dash before the brakes failed, during or after.

I turned the car off and after looking at the car thought i would try it again so turned the car back on and pressed the brake and (the pedal went to the floor as though connected to nothing when the brakes failed) the pedal felt fine again. I was only around the corner from home so drove slowly back home as the roads were empty and tried the brakes once or twice and they slowed and stopped the car fine as though nothing had happened, however, when I press the brake pedal, there is a knocking sound from the left rear of the car and when driving down the road (with the window open) you can hear like a rubbing sound that gets more frequent the faster you go.

I am going to get it in the garage asap even thought brakes themselves feel fine again, but you can tell the car isnt well (the brakes at least) but read that in these cars the brakes work off the vacuum pipe system in the engine? Is this right? Id like to know the story behind this as I know bad vacuum hoses can cause rough idling in the car and I am 80% confident the vacuum hoses in my car need changing anyway.

So to sum up, anyone experienced or know of standard mk3 golf 1.4 brakes just stopping working then working fine again after turning the engine off and on. Any ideas what caused it if it could happen again and if the vacuum hose i the engine could have caused it if that is bad?

**BobProperty** · 02-05-2009,09:50 PM

The brakes don't work off a "vacuum pipe system" they are assisted by a vacuum system. It is quite significant assistance, if the engine stalls while you are braking it makes it a lot more difficult to stop.
From your description though, you said " the pedal went to the floor as though connected to nothing", then (unless I'm missing something) that isn't related to the vacuum servo. That is either a mechanical failure or a hydraulic failure of some sort. Have you checked the car again for leaks, especially the inside of the back wheel where you say you can hear something? Has the brake fluid level gone down? I know you said it hadn't at the time, but if it has now been left for a while, has it leaked slowly while not in use?

**ritter1** · 03-05-2009,04:33 PM

yeh, I had it into kwik fit asap when it happened, i got them to do a thorough brake test on the brakes and systems related and they said everything was fine, except for the front right brake pad. It was right down to the metal. SImple enough, happens to all cars, but he said he was a bit confused how it was just the one brake pad like that as all the other pads, discs and drums were fine, in fact, have long lives in front of them and doesnt see a reason why one pad was so far along compared to the others. He said the brakes hadnt even seized so was confused by all of it, but he later found the sliders had seized so they need changing too.

Anyway, he is gonna chage the brakes and sliders on the car. I asked why one brake pad down to the metal had (it seems) caused the brakes to completely fail, he said most likely (as the hydraulic systems and such were perfectly fine) the pad wearing down to metal and thus causing the calipers etc to push further (not sure exactly what he said about this lol) had caused the brakes to stop working. Any ideas? As I said, everything is being sorted but I would like this to be cleared for peace of mind if anything. I am thinking that because the system ensures you have at least two opposing corners working if one side of the system fails, then maybe the extra work on that one corner has caused the system to shut off? the system did work fine once turned on and off again.

Whilst doing the brake test, he said he found the rear wheel bearings to be on their way out ad said the 'humming' noise I had been hearing was the bearings starting to go. He said they are fine for now but eventually will need changing. Any suggestions for those? i.e. how long should I wait before getting them done etc.

One last thing, ever since starting to drive the car, Ive had little confidence in the brakes, of course, some of that would be down to the fact the pads needed changing but Ive been wanting to get a conversion done from the rear drums to rear pads and discs and maybe larger pads and discs all around. I know these conversions can be pricey but safety is something I dont mind paying for and although its only a 1.4 its can still get to 70mph the same as a VR6 and is just as heavy. Any ideas? Would it be worth it? If the increase in efficiency is only minimal I wont bother but if it betters the brakes by quite a way I will aim to get it done eventually.

Thanks for the help

**Crasher** · 03-05-2009,05:42 PM

A rear disc conversion is quite easy to do but you have to change the rear axle as AEX engined models have a rear axle specifically designed for drum brakes with a rear pressure regulator on the axle. A GTI or VR6 axle could be used but it has an integral anti roll bar but you would have to fit a front 21.5-mm anti roll bar to match, I don’t think yours even has a front anti roll bar. Of course the rear discs would need to be changed for 4 stud items but that would be a matter of course anyway but most importantly you would need to upgrade your front brakes to at least 256-mm to restore braking balance and that means complete new hub carriers, calipers etc.

**ritter1** · 03-05-2009,06:53 PM

lol, mine definitely does not have front anit-roll bars with the way it leans in the corners lol, even the mk3's super soft suspension cant be that bad if it does have anti roll bars. Would it be worth all of the effort and time to do? I mean, I'd love to take it to the odd track day (althoug it is only a 1.4 yes) but dont think i ever will as I dont wanna kill it for no real reason so the car is only used and ever will be used for normal road/motorway driving. Would I see an increase in braking ability and efficiency from such a conversion on the normal roads or will I just end up spending alot of money, time and effort doing a conversion that will not result in much more braking ability than standards?

Also, on a completely non-brake related question, is it worth even thinking about upgrading the clutch on the car? the clutch on mine is quite 'jerky' meaning the pedal feels like it is rubbing on something orsomething like that, you can get nice smooth gear changes and such but the pedal feel is doing my head in. Maybe the cable juyst needs resetting but could a worn clutch cable or even clutch itself cause the 'shuddery' pull off from the lights if I try and get away in decent time (not foot to the floor kind of thing but not snail pace either).

Thanks again guys

**Crasher** · 03-05-2009,07:45 PM

Worth the effort? Absolutely no way! The front means finding Golf 2 89>92 16v or certain Golf 3 front brakes and the rear is involved as well, it is easy but time consuming and money consuming as well. The master cylinder would also have to be changed for a 22-mm item as well but that is easy and cheap. Yes the braking ability would be massively increased.

The clutch is weak and can be upgraded by fitting a super expensive Sachs Sporting unit which is stupid money, about £400! If it needs a new one, just fit an LUK or Sachs direct replacement unit.

**ritter1** · 03-05-2009,09:10 PM

I think I will wait at least a yr or two before I do any brake conversion if it is more involved than replacing rear hubs, brake lines etc. But if the braking ability will really be massively increased I think I definitely will do it.

As for the clutch, I personally think it needs replacing as the pedal 'feel' just doesnt seem right to me, its very difficult to make minute changes to the amount of clutch you want as if you release any pressure on the pedal it will shoot up alot more than you want and if you want to apply a tiny bit more clutch, you will push slightly, the pedal wont move so you push a bit harder and you disengage the clutch completely.

Also, do you know if it is a generic thing with the 1.4 engined mk3 golfs that the front end seems far too high? i.e. the rear ride height looks normal yet the front looks a good 3/4 inches too high? Its nothing that is causing any problems driving its just that it looks like the vcar is 'sitting back' even when no load is in the rear. I have seen one or two other 1.4 mk3's like this and am thinking maybe the engines are just so light that they dont push the suspension down enough compared to the larger engined cars. Would I be right thinking along these lines? Like I said, its nothing thats worrying me, its just a little annoying seeing it like that and not knowing if its supposed to be like that or not.

**BobProperty** · 03-05-2009,09:15 PM

I'll give you a possible explanation then (maybe I should be writing scripts for CSI)
Cheap set of front disc pads. Wearing down, one pad finally gives up and comes off the backing plate. This gives you the noise and the sudden need for the brake pedal moving to the floor as the calliper moves to take up the space vacated by the brake pad. Afterwards everything is sort of back to normal. Brakes won't be that good because one is metal to metal but you haven't braked hard in that time.

Originally Posted by Crasher

A rear disc conversion is quite easy to do but you have to change the rear axle as AEX engined models have a rear axle specifically designed for drum brakes with a rear pressure regulator on the axle. A GTI or VR6 axle could be used but it has an integral anti roll bar but you would have to fit a front 21.5-mm anti roll bar to match, I don’t think yours even has a front anti roll bar. Of course the rear discs would need to be changed for 4 stud items but that would be a matter of course anyway but most importantly you would need to upgrade your front brakes to at least 256-mm to restore braking balance and that means complete new hub carriers, calipers etc.

So POP then?

I'll include it in my six impossible things to do before breakfast.

**Crasher** · 03-05-2009,10:55 PM

The ride height of a Golf 3 is visually approx 15-mm higher at the front than at the rear but it is an illusion caused by the shape of the front arch. To correct this you have to lower the front of the car more than the rear.

**ritter1** · 04-05-2009,09:59 AM

Originally Posted by BobProperty

I'll give you a possible explanation then (maybe I should be writing scripts for CSI)
Cheap set of front disc pads. Wearing down, one pad finally gives up and comes off the backing plate. This gives you the noise and the sudden need for the brake pedal moving to the floor as the calliper moves to take up the space vacated by the brake pad. Afterwards everything is sort of back to normal. Brakes won't be that good because one is metal to metal but you haven't braked hard in that time.

So POP then?

I'll include it in my six impossible things to do before breakfast.

Ahhh, that seems to clarify what the guy in kwik fit was telling me, thanks, makes sense now. Hopefully the new pads will be better quality, the last time the brakes were done was before we got the car so had no idea what quality brakes were put on it.