Convert from Subarus

[½cwt]

Yes, whisper it, the Nurburgring. I was quite chuffed with 9:56. I think I did a better lap with a passenger on board becauuse I was smoother and slightly better weight balance but the watch wasn't running. I had previously done a 10:15 in a Vauxhall Carlton 3000 GSi 24v so I'm sure there was more to come from the Scooby.

It was in 1996 and I had a lot of Germans coming up to me asking what this strange car was that was troubling some apparently much faster equipment. They were a little more understanding when I told them it was a 210PS engine and 4WD. They had obvously not heard of Carlos Sainz or Colin McRae at that time.

BTW sold my 7 year old Impreza estate for only £3100 (performance bargin of the century??) and bought my 6 year old A6 for only £5k so residuals aren't that great....

A VX220 turbo is in yet another world, the ones here at PalmerSport are still used for driver training for our single seater Formula Palmer Audi race cars even though we've not run them as customer event cars for over 2 seasons now.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Yes, whisper it, the Nurburgring. I was quite chuffed with 9:56.

Cool, I now realise why you were so quick (PS & Bedford!!).

I think I did a better lap with a passenger on board

Ah - human ballast

It was in 1996 and I had a lot of Germans coming up to me asking what this strange car was that was troubling some apparently much faster equipment. They were a little more understanding when I told them it was a 210PS engine and 4WD. They had obvously not heard of Carlos Sainz or Colin McRae at that time.

Class!

BTW sold my 7 year old Impreza estate for only £3100 (performance bargin of the century??) and bought my 6 year old A6 for only £5k so residuals aren't that great....

Hmmm . . . I suppose the A6 range isn't quite as desireable as say the A3 and A4 ranges. Your Scoob is quite a "hardcore" niche motor, so it would be better to compare your Scoob residuals against the S or RS models!

A VX220 turbo is in yet another world, the ones here at PalmerSport are still used for driver training for our single seater Formula Palmer Audi race cars even though we've not run them as customer event cars for over 2 seasons now.

How do the 220 turbos compare to the original VX220s?

Rgds

[MalcQV]

I have to disagree strongly. My S4 regularly makes European trips, loaded to the gunnels, often returning with 30 or so cases of wine, pounding the A-routes and A-bahns on the speed limiter (indicated 175), for hours at a time, other times, given a hounding through mountainous hairpins, usually covering over 8k miles on each 4 week trip. Never misses a beat!

I am sure you are right. The point was not that an S4 could not do it, the Subaru is cheaper to start with and can do it equally as good

My recent trackday, completely untouchable by the heavilly modded Scoobs and Evos (one of the Scoob owners was a cop class 1 instructor examiner!!!). The Scoobs and Evos always needed tweaking this and adjusting that after every session, but the two Audis, three BMs, a Merc and a few Porkers sailed through every session without probs. My day ended after 5 of the 7 sessions due to a long brake pedal, and canvas on my boots!

I was not there and have never tracked a car in my life so cannot comment as such. Figures suggest that the S4 and WRX's are of similar abilities. But your real life experiences suggest otherwise so I can go with that.

Again, strongly disagree. Of course German cars, VW and Audi included have minor niggles, which sometimes get blown out of proportion. Two classic and salient issues - the coil pack failures which dogged VAG for a while were from a poor quality supply of Japanese supplies. Another - VAG have isuues regarding the reliability of their radios and sat-navs - who makes them - Panasonic!!!


When I was at college, one of the other students used to bring a new Honda in the workshop every Monday morning with some mickey-mouse crap design problem which the engineering tutors had to fix. His "daddy" owned a major Honda dealership, and these were all "problem" cars which they couldn't sort themselves.

My father had a huge raft of problems with his brand new Toyota RAV4, so much so that he rejected his 1st, and got a 2nd RAV, only to have similar probs. Toyota UK bought back the second, and tried to use a gagging-clause! He went and bought an A class - oh hum, out of the frying pan . . .

The Japanese actually really excell in their customer service. They get the same problems and issues the same as any other manufacturer, they just usually sort them out in a manner totally different to any European manufacturer.

Read this forum, they are not without fault. My wife and I have owned 2 Honda Civics (from new) two Honda Accords (3/5 years old) and a MX5 (1998) from new. Not one has been to a dealer for a fault. They have only ever been serviced. Those cars we owned between 94 and 06.
I have had my Passat since September 06 to date:-
1)Without car to have an extra key programmed - the dealer mis-placed the original.
2)A failed water pump which meant I had to limp home very carefully.
3) The dealer fixed this and I am pleased with their service, however the brand new CD changer failed to work after that. It turned out a connection on the rear of the head unit was broken.

So that is three fixes in 4 months. I would say the Japanese in my experience are far superior.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics" - is an infamous quote. You can get any answer you want - if you ask the right question. There are many differerent types of these "surveys" - the "ownership" ones tend to favour the Japanese. The "running costs" types don't!

This is a survey. JD Power are recognised clearly for their studies. You cannot just say they are lies, anymore than I can say you have lied about your track experience. Why would JD Power want to promote any single manufacturer? You are going to tell us next you have evidence of corruption!

You hit the nail squarely on its' head. If only VAG dealers behaved like Japanese dealers!!!!



LOL, I've seen better interiors in LandRover Defenders!! My SWMBO also hated the Evos and Gallants!


Each to their own!

we agree on this at least . Don't get me wrong I am sticking with the Passat because there is an awful lot of good about it. We have to recognise the Japanese for what they do well. My personal experience is they are better at some things.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I am sure you are right. The point was not that an S4 could not do it, the Subaru is cheaper to start with and can do it equally as good

I never said the Scoob was not cheaper, but the equally good bit - I disagree.

Leaving any track action aside, and concentrating on road use, the Audi S4, any Audi actually is far more "user friendly" than any Scoob (or Evo). I know, having spent 8-10 hours behind the wheel, with only the obligatory coffee/pee/fuel/toll stops every 170-180 miles or so, at three figure speeds on autoroutes, I can get out at the other end as fresh as a daisy, no backache, no earache (from noisey engines and exhausts, or SWMBO!), enjoying the full electric seat adjustment to move about, and seat heating to keep my bladder happy until the next fuel stop. The car always sounds as sweet as the day it was new, the traction and handling is not phased by rain or poor roads, the ESP works (very occasionally on slick bitchumen <sp?>) at amazingly high speeds (without even waking SWMBO). Had I tried anything like that in either Scoob or Evo (and any V-tec motor), my ears would be ringging, I would be fed up with the sound of the ESP grating away if it were raining, my back would be killing me from the limited and manual seat adjustment, my wife would give me grief 'cause she could see bu&&er all, she wouldn't be able to drive, cause the seats are at a fixed height and too low - oh, and I'd be well pi$$ed off with every tom, ****, harry, henri, pierre etc thinking I was a Tommi or Colin wannabe and trying to race all the while. But hey, if that is your kind of thing, then you would think the Scoob is as good as an Audi S4!

I was not there and have never tracked a car in my life so cannot comment as such. Figures suggest that the S4 and WRX's are of similar abilities. But your real life experiences suggest otherwise so I can go with that.

You ought to try one of the VAG only Autometrix http://www.autometrix.co.uk/html/trackday.html (publishers of the more - erm - sedate, more mature Volkswagen Driver and Audi Driver) track days. The clientelle is much more mature, and people are less inclined to "race", instead merely wishing to "learn" more of their cars' (and their own driving) abilities. With them being VAG only cars (one of the days is actually exclusively Audi), there is no one else to "impress" or prove anything against another manufacturer.

I'm often annoyed how many of the motoring press and journos write off the S4 as some kind of overweight, nose heavy, understeery lard barge which is only good for straight lines. They miss the point of the mechanical simplicity, with the Torsen 4wd system so good, so proven over the years - they think if it isn't assisted by some ultra modern, "this season", electronic aid, or yaw controller this, active diff that - that the Audi would be history against the "Playstation" Scoobs and Evos. Vicky Butler Henderson is a classic example - give her a WRX or an STi, plonk her on the Anglessy track, and she can-not keep the thing tracking straight - it may look fun, but it is not fast - and VBH is supposed to be a racing driver!

Read this forum, they are not without fault.

I'm not too sure what part you are quoting, but I never said VAG were fault-free, and I never said Jap stuff were were all fault-riddled. Every car, whoever made it, whatever flag, will have problems. Someone may own a Passat, and keep it for years and have nothing go wrong, another person may also have a Passat and be plagued by a string of faults. The same goes for Japanese, or Korean, or French (maybe not!), or wherever. All I know from very valid experience, my senior tutor (who was at the time the only Ferrari UK engine technician!) was repeatedly tasked to fix - re-engineer poor design faults and problems on Hondas. I had to work on Datsuns and Nissans, and they had problems just like any Ford or Vauxhall, or any make!

I own Japanese motorcycles and have had problems from poor design, poor engineering, and general poor quality build. Just ask any serving Police motorcyclist or Paramedic about the disgraceful debacle with the new Honda Pan-European motorcycle, with argueabley the best trained motorcyle riders being killed by unprovoked killer handling traits which literally "spit off" the rider at high speeds. Then there is the issue of self destructing oil pans - not good on a motorcycle to have your rear tyre lubricated by 4 litres of the deserts finest.

My wife and I have owned 2 Honda Civics (from new) two Honda Accords (3/5 years old) and a MX5 (1998) from new. Not one has been to a dealer for a fault. They have only ever been serviced. Those cars we owned between 94 and 06.

But that doesn't prove that every Civic or Accord or MX5 were perfect! But I do take your point about the general trend, and I would never disagree with hard, independently proven facts, nor personal experience. I do wish though, that the Japanese would improve the quality of their interior designs - Lexus seem to be headding in the right direction, but they still havn't nailed it for me!

I have had my Passat since September 06 to date:-
1)Without car to have an extra key programmed - the dealer mis-placed the original.

Inexcusable dealer muppetery, which sadly is all to common with all the German marques (and the French too!). Can you blame the "car" - I don't think so!

2)A failed water pump which meant I had to limp home very carefully.
3) The dealer fixed this and I am pleased with their service,

Yup you win that one hands down, but even Honda or Toyota or anyone else will have a water pump go some day. It does seem to be another well known achiless heel of the VAG motors, not helped by the owners skipping the water pump change when the timing belt is changed.

however the brand new CD changer failed to work after that. It turned out a connection on the rear of the head unit was broken.

And all the ICE is made by Panasonic - is that an own-goal for you Malc

So that is three fixes in 4 months. I would say the Japanese in my experience are far superior.

Won't try anything but agree with your own personal experiences - but that doesn't make it a totality? Many others may fully mirror your experiencies, others may not recognise any similarity at all.

This is a survey. JD Power are recognised clearly for their studies. You cannot just say they are lies, anymore than I can say you have lied about your track experience. Why would JD Power want to promote any single manufacturer? You are going to tell us next you have evidence of corruption!

No no no - I never said they lied, and I never said they were corrupt! Good heavens. Like I said before - if you want to form answers that give a certain "perspective", then you mould your questions to try and deliver the objective. I'ts like me asking you about say food and you solely lived on Heinz Baked Beans, because, in your opinion, they were the absolute pinnacle of human sustinance - I could mould a question so that you give me either a "yes" or "no" answer (are Heinz baked beans better than Tesco value beans?), or I could ask you an "open" question (what are your favourite brand of baked beans - or even what is your favourite food), - with you giving me the answer to any of those questions, Heinz will come tops. However, for me to systematically get Heinz to come tops over a survey of say 1000 people, I wold have to tailor the question very carefully indeed.

Now, I'm not saying they are intentionally favouring any manufacturer or flag, but you do need to know where the JD Power orginated - the USA, and they have very different mindsets to European drivers. The yanks simply want a car (or pick-up or SUV) to get them from A to B, with as many cup holders as possible. They don't go for engineering excellence, they don't go for driving ergonomics, they don't go for good fuel economy, they don't go for long interval maintenance, they don't like putting expensive fully synthetic VAG approved oils in their engines (that is where the sludge issues on VAG turbos orginated!) - but they are impressed with something a little more reliable (and cheaper - that is where VAG fall down in the US) than their home grown motors. I don't know how or why the JD Power survey model was formed, but it is a "licensed" product, and if we use it here in the UK, we have to use the exact same format.

Other surveys do offer very different perspectives, the Lex leasing (trade only survey), the German highly regarded ADAC, the Austrian OAMTC - all very differing results to JD Power.

Then there are the "scientific" tests - EuroNCAP, is a classic example of how German originated cars (including, surprisingly, Opel) often fare much better in crash tests than either Japanese/Asian brands and US brands.

The "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" was my attempt at quoting some highly infamous "concern" from some (I don't know who said it! - well after some quick Googling - it was Mark Twain!) commentator, when a certain government was trying to use "spin" to skew statistical figures for the public to digest them from a specific angle.

we agree on this at least . Don't get me wrong I am sticking with the Passat because there is an awful lot of good about it. We have to recognise the Japanese for what they do well. My personal experience is they are better at some things.

Good, that is all part of human nature, sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't - providing we all allow others to express their own opinions and experiences, I'm all for it!

[MalcQV]

Most of that I agree with, really. I am a fan of the Subaru, love the sound. I was trying to point out that "one man's poison is another man's meat" Not sure I like the saying today but you get my drift

A good question though, money being no object what would I choose to cross Europe or indeed the US in?

As I was typing the last entry I was watching Transporter 2. The Audi A8 W12 Quattro in it was one hell of a car. The film is far fetched I know.

The A8 would be up there
Along with a DB9
A Ferrari 612 or 599
.....

[Huweth]

I sit open mouthed as Scooby after Scooby tears past me on the motorway.

Open mouthed as 'in awe', or open mouthed as in bored of it?

I never liked Suburu's, they just remind me of a Porsche Boxster being the poor mans 911... Evo's are much better looking and go better. My uncle is a former Welsh Rally champ. He bought an EVO, saying that the suburu's he'd test driven were not a patch on the EVO.
A year or two later, he sold is as it 'took too much of the skill out of driving with all the electronic gizmo's and high tech components.' He went out and bought an old cortina to rally as they 'are proper cars that require proper driving skills'. He might come across as old fashion, but he really does know how to drive...

[MalcQV]

Open mouthed as 'in awe', or open mouthed as in bored of it?

I never liked Suburu's, they just remind me of a Porsche Boxster being the poor mans 911... Evo's are much better looking and go better. My uncle is a former Welsh Rally champ. He bought an EVO, saying that the suburu's he'd test driven were not a patch on the EVO.
A year or two later, he sold is as it 'took too much of the skill out of driving with all the electronic gizmo's and high tech components.' He went out and bought an old cortina to rally as they 'are proper cars that require proper driving skills'. He might come across as old fashion, but he really does know how to drive...

Big fan of old Cortina's myself. My first was a MKIII, not I doubt what your uncle drove (probably a MKII Lotus or 1600E), but I loved it.

I would (surprise surprise) have an S2000 over a Boxster. The only real Porsche IMHO is the 911

[S2AVANT]

The Ford Escort is the most succesful rally car
ever.

I have my flame suit on.

[Teutonic_Tamer]

Most of that I agree with, really. I am a fan of the Subaru, love the sound. I was trying to point out that "one man's poison is another man's meat" Not sure I like the saying today but you get my drift

A good question though, money being no object what would I choose to cross Europe or indeed the US in?

As I was typing the last entry I was watching Transporter 2. The Audi A8 W12 Quattro in it was one hell of a car. The film is far fetched I know.

The A8 would be up there
Along with a DB9
A Ferrari 612 or 599
.....

For x-ing Europe - Bugatti Veyron - no contest, for the US, the A8 maybe, or a stoking great Winnebago!

[Teutonic_Tamer]

I never liked Suburu's, ... Evo's are much better looking and go better. My uncle is a former Welsh Rally champ. He bought an EVO, saying that the suburu's he'd test driven were not a patch on the EVO.

Seems to confirm what the OP also indicated. I don't think I've missed out on much then, by not driving a Scoob!

A year or two later, he sold is as it 'took too much of the skill out of driving with all the electronic gizmo's and high tech components.'

Exactly my feelings. Sadly, the Haldex 4wd offers the same uneasy reliance of the electronics to get the power to the rear axle!

He went out and bought an old cortina to rally as they 'are proper cars that require proper driving skills'. He might come across as old fashion, but he really does know how to drive...

Nowt old fashioned about that. In my yoof, I had a Fiat SuperMirafiori - went like stink, and out handled the Capris, Escorts and Cortinas of its' day. How I miss the "back to basics" car control - I don't miss the constant need for a circuit tester in the glovebox though!