Notices
 

  

User Tag List

Thread: Balance shaft/timing job

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23
  1. Question Balance shaft/timing job 
    #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Halifax, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    8 Post(s)
    Hi everyone, here comes yet another balance shaft/oil pump post in 3....2....1....

    So i'm looking to do a preventative job on my VAG Passat B6 BKP. I will try to break this post into two sections, first discussing all my timing belt questions which will be needed to be solved in order to do the balance shaft renewal. I have read many posts and you tube videos and so first of all i will present you guy's with what i know so far followed by my questions. To lock the timing belt in TDC, cams need locking and crank, crank has to rotate twice before the cams have completed one turn. The Aux belt needs to be removed with the tensioner pulley locked with a pin/screw, anything lock and slim enough to reach the hole. The crank pulley that the aux belt wraps around has to be removed to get to the rear main crankshaft cog. Does the timing belt have to be removed to do the balance shaft, if so here comes the following timing belt tensioner questions. To remove the tensioner stud, do you have to double nut it and then use a spanner to undo it? after that when reinstalling it the stud (03G 109 459) needs to be renewed and torqued at 20 NM + 1/8 (45*) and loctite applied so it doesn't undo itself. What about the nut that goes onto the stud after the tensioner roller has been installed, what is that torqued to? Also some say that tensioner can be removed without having to take off the engine mount, is that true? Due to the horror stories, this is what I fear the most failing.

    Timing torque specs (sorry for large images)






    I'm also aware that there are two types of crankshaft locking tools, i have a spare BKP engine (original engine of my car) and I will check that. My original car engine failed after a timing belt job, either he used same tensioner stud or over-torqued. But it went to 191k miles with a serious knocking after that engine had a oil pressure failure. Now I want to make sure history does not repeat itself. If i torque everything correctly and lock the engine at TDC and renew all the torque-to-yield nuts/gaskets, this should be successful right?

    Now once the timing belt is set to TDC, i will also after locking timing belt be removing the gearbox at this time because it will make it easier to get to the bolts between the flywheel and sump and its been a few years since it last had it changed. I will leave any gearbox removal questions and focus on timing belt and balance shaft renewal for now. I don't want to overwhelm those that help me. Does the crankshaft sprocket need to be heated and removed? Now moving onto the balance shaft questions once the engine is set to TDC and gearbox is removed. I will be using KMB for the parts. so far below is a guide that i have found posted by GazWorld:

    Disconnect battery negative lead.
    Slacken OSF wheel nuts.
    Jack up car slightly to remove undershield and remove wheel and wheel arch liner.
    Slacken auxiliary belt tensioner and lock off with suitable "pin" (allen key, drill bit or short handled screwdriver) and remove auxiliary belt noting its rotational direction.

    Remove timing belt covers and crank pulley.
    Drain oil.
    Jack up higher and support with axle stands at suitable points to the rear of the subframe to allow room to work under engine.
    Disconnect oil level sensor plug, remove sump, remove leftover silicone sealant from sump edge and crank carrier surfaces as you will need to reseal the sump for refitting - their is no sump gasket.

    At this point you will see the balancer shaft unit bolted below the crank.
    Lock cams and toothed crankshaft cog at TDC with appropriate locking tools.
    This also locks the balancer drive cog on the back of the crank gear cog inside the sump area.
    Support balancer unit and undo the 8 retaining bolts, if I remember rightly one of these is a long oil pump bolt and they are different sizes so use a piece of cardboard and pop them in the same positions on the cardboard noting that you are looking upwards at the balancer unit (renewal of the bolts is recommended as they are stretch type with additional angle stage tightening).
    Wiggle the unit slightly and it should come away - it is HEAVY!!
    Lower it carefully, it still has a lot of oil inside and remove from under the car.

    Remove circlip from oil pump drive key hole (it's very small - renew it).
    Drive key can be removed with a small magnet or by feeding it through from the balance shaft end.
    Balancer unit is in two halves. Remove strainer pipe checking gauze is clear (clean pipe and gauze if necessary and renew pipe seal).
    Undo retaining bolts again they may be different sizes and lift off top half leaving bottom half with balancer shafts in situ.
    Shafts can be lifted out from bottom half of unit and gearing checked.
    Replacement is usually no 2 shaft which has the drive key hole for the pump with a modified version (yours or exchange).
    Clean visible oil channels on both halves and inspect shell bearings of balancer unit where shafts sit. Renew shells if worn or scored.

    Apply thick oil or assembly lube to inside of shells and clean balance shaft journals.
    When replacing a shaft ensure that the flat surface of the balance weight on each shaft sit level with each other (once their gear cogs have been reintroduced) in the bottom half of the balancer unit.
    Apply assembly lube to balance shaft gear cogs.

    Fit a new upgraded drive key of the correct length with retaining circlip.
    Refitting is the reverse of removal noting that a special tool will be needed to retain the shafts in a specific position in the balance unit to align the drive gears and ensure they marry correctly before bolting the unit to the specific torque / angle settings.

    A very small amount of backlash (backward rotation of the intermediate cog) should be present after refitting the unit.
    This is necessary to avoid gear damage or excess wear.
    You should have very slight rotational "play" for want of a better word when turning the lower gear cog against the intermediate one.
    This is necessary to avoid gear damage or excess wear. Too tight against each other and the gear teeth will grind.

    Seal sump with silicone sealant before refitting. Refit all other components removed applying correct torque settings.

    CHECK: REMOVE ALL LOCKING TOOLS AND REFILL OIL!!

    Rotate engine by hand a few turns to ensure free movement and no sticking of balancer unit gearing.

    Reconnect battery and start up.


    And here is another site offering another individual help. I will put the questions next to each part to keep it clear as possible.


    To time the balancer shaft to the crank shaft you will need to make sure that the engine is set to top dead centre just like you are doing the cambelt and then do the following.

    Before positioning the balancing shaft module at cylinder block slacken the screw -1- for intermediate wheel approx. 1/4 turn Slacken clockwise?



    Position the balancing shaft module at cylinder block, while doing so pay attention to the correct position of the intermediate wheel:
    The white point -arrow- on the intermediate wheel must be positioned in the centre of the crankshaft. How can I position the balancing shaft module at cylinder block, which position should it be to be at cylinder block? with the intermediate wheel attached to the crankshaft cog and the crankshaft locked, how is it possible to rotate the intermediate wheel?





    First of all tighten the screws in the sequence -1 ... 8- by hand.
    Tighten screws of balancing shaft module as follows
    Pre-tighten the screws in the sequence -1 ... 8- to 6 Nm.
    Pre-tighten screws-5- and -7- to 13 Nm.
    Torque screws -5- and -7- a further 90 (1/4 turn) using a rigid wrench.
    Tighten the screws -1 ... 4-, -6- and -8- to 20 Nm
    Torque screws -1 ... 4-, -6- and -8- further to 90 (1/4 turn) using a rigid wrench. ​This baffles me too, what does sequence -1 8- mean and what is a rigid wrench, a non-torque wrench as the stiffness may damage the torque wrench?




    Interlock balancing shaft with rig tool -T10255-, to do so turn the balancing shaft.
    The stud of the rig tool must grip into the groove of the balancing shaft.




    Carefully put balancing shaft pinion onto the balancing shaft, to do so push the intermediate wheel slightly to the side.
    Tighten balancing shaft pinion -arrows-.
    Remove rig tool -T10255-.There is no intermediate wheel pictured above as opposed to below. how do you push something that is bolted on to the side? Is it because as stated above, I have loosened the intermediate wheel? Is there a way of finding out if it is at TDC besides the balance shaft timing tool? once balance shaft is set at TDC, is this when both shafts have their flat side perfectly leveled to the balance shaft and facing the cyclinder block? such as the below pic





    The following 3 work steps must be carried out simultaneously (two mechanics required to do this):
    If necessary forcefully push the intermediate wheel -3- with the aid of a wooden rod in -direction of arrow- into the serration of the drive pinion -2- and balancing shaft pinion -1-.
    While doing so slightly turn the balancing shaft pinion anti-clockwise.
    Tighten screw for intermediate wheel.
    Remove crankshaft arrester.
    After the assembly the intermediate wheel must have no torsional clearance. This can be checked by hand with little force. ​This seems like the trickiest part, so I am pushing the intermediate wheel towards the direction of the arrow pictured below while turning the balance shaft wheel anti-clockwise. How can i rotate the balance shaft wheel when its groves are within the other two wheels groves? Also why am I turning balance shaft wheel anti-clockwise?



    Now refit all the other parts and you should be timed up.

    I hope this helps and if I can help further please feel free to ask

    What are the torque specs of the intermediate wheel and the four nuts on the balance shaft wheel?

    some more information about balancing shaft torque specs and part numbers of items that will need to be renewed:

    This is for NEW balancer unit to cylinder block bolts (if you are not renewing them do not use these settings):

    M7 bolts - Stage 1 is 13 Nm (10 lbf ft) and Stage 2 is further angle-tighten by 90 degrees

    M8 bolts - Stage 1 is 20 Nm (15 lbf ft) and Stage 2 is further angle-tighten by 90 degrees

    Crankshaft pulley to sprocket bolts - Stage 1 is 10 Nm (7 lbf ft) and Stage 2 is further angle-tighten by 90 degrees.

    Sump to cylinder block bolts - 15 Nm (11 lbf ft)
    Sump to transmission bolts - 45 Nm (33 lbf ft)
    Oil pickup pipe bolts - 10 Nm (7 lbf ft)
    Oil pump to balancer unit - 10 Nm (7 lbf ft)

    Part numbers quoted are based on the gear driven unit. Should be the same for the balancer unit on chain driven oil pump system. Some early PD engines didn't have a balancer unit.
    2005-2009 (to October) balancer unit is 03g103295K
    2009 (November and December only) unit is 03g103295AG
    2010 (January onward unit is 03g103295AK
    The AG and AK revisions are 100mm long follower keys and should not be failing like the 77mm short ones.
    For the K revision (77mm long follower key) there is a 5, 1, 1, 1, configuration with four different bolt part numbers:
    N 10601402 x 5
    N 90977502 x 1
    N 91104601 x 1
    N 91123401 x 1
    N 90951301 x 1 oil pickup seal
    N 0122942 x 1 follower key retaining circlip
    The five bolts listed for a K revision unit are reduced to three for the AG and AK balance unit revisions.
    VW swapped from chain to gear in the time that the BKP was being produced.

    Is there a way besides dropping sump of knowing if engine is geared or chain as i have changed engines so VIN may not work.

    A special thanks to Gazworld, DMitch and crasher for all their help that I've managed to gather into this post. Besides doing a service I have never done any advance job such as this. Talk about running before you can walk lol. but with all the help above, if i have the knowledge and the correct tools i should be successful. My earlier posts i haven't presented the results as i haven't fixed those issues yet. I wish to do this so if it fails at least i didn't waste money before fixing smaller issues around my car. Thanks and I look forward to your help. Hopefully I will make up a great guide on how to do this job. I have probably missed out a few questions as there is so much to know.
     
    1 1 0
     

  2. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    2,107
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    139 Post(s)
    Kudos to DMitch as they're his instructions .

    Is your BKP definitely geared ?
     
    0 0 0
     

  3. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Halifax, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    8 Post(s)
    That's what i need to find out. i replaced the engine so vin number wouldn't work. i cant hear any chain rattling. but is there any date of manufacture on the engine? i do have the latest C revision head on the engine unlike the previous porous heads so unless the head was replaced it should be a 2006 or newer engine which would have the gear. I may call KMB on monday and they may have a method of finding out. But lets say it is a geared balancing shaft, can you help me answer some of the questions in the OP please.
     
    0 0 0
     

  4. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #4
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    2,107
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    139 Post(s)
    KMB list the BKP as chain but my father's and many others were geared .

    Best method is a sump off visual .

    Geared



    Chain will be chain as so .


    Kudos to Stevie C .
     
    0 1 0
     

  5. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Halifax, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    8 Post(s)
    looks like the crank gear is behind the block wall, i wonder how it attaches to the crankshaft. Hopefully the gears i have aren't chewed up, KMB sell them at 100 each which I a lot for a gear.

    Edit: the crankshaft itself has a gear on it so it attaches internally.

     
    0 0 0
     

  6. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Rustington, West Sussex UK
    Posts
    903
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    18 Post(s)
    Firstly the timing belt does not have to be removed for the balance shaft job only the auxilliary belt pulley and timing belt covers. Secondly you should identify whether your BKP has gear or chain oil pump drive by removing the sump. The 3 larger gearbox to sump bolts are slightly covered but very easy to remove with the right sockets and a range of extension lengths (I have 6 ranging from 4 inches to 16 inches in length - the smallest are about right but I also mix 3/8ths steppers onto 1/2 inch sockets if I need a different length of extendability as my 3/8th socket rachet handle is very strong). No need to remove gearbox. If gear driven and unless there is damage to any of the 3 gear cogs, crank, intermediary or primary you will not need to remove any of them. The lash between the primary and intermediate gears should be perfectly fine provided you DO NOT undo any of them. This simplifies the balance shaft job which I have just done again on a BMR engine (2 weeks ago). If converting from chain to gear driven then those instructions would be appropriate.

    Note on the balancer unit itself once removed - have a bench or table available covered in thick absorbant cloth or thick kitchen roll (not the cheap stuff as it tears and breaks up - you don't want little bits inside when you reassemble) or a long rectangular plastic tray with absorbant pad in the bottom. Have a card ready to put the bolts through in the same order as removed so they are refitted correctly. There are a number of threaded closed holes into which the unit retaining bolts fit - clean the bolts with brake or carb cleaner and the oil out of these holes before reassembly as this will provide a better grip and no counter pressure when tightening. Never clean such items with oil channels using tissue.

    The alignment of the shafts are as you pictured and they self level due to their counterweights so when fitting the replacement just angle the first shaft a touch in situ and apply the replacement and a little rotational movement should mesh the gears and leave them level. If they are not level simply repeat until the flat side of the shafts are level with each other as per the photo. Fill the oil channels with fresh oil using an oil can if you have one and assembly lube to the shells. Clean the oil from the mating surfaces of the unit halves before refitting - you should be able to identify which surfaces these are but leave all else oily. If any shells pop out clean them and the journal into which they fit with brake cleaner and ensure both are totally clean and dry when refitting. After refitting apply a small amount of assembly lube across the top of the shaft gears and on the shell surfaces. I use Millers assembly oil as it's fairly thick but not overly so.

    Tighten the bolts holding the 2 halves together firmly - there is no published torque for these so a medium 'grunt' is sufficient - they should be pretty tight but not blood vessel bursting tight. I am fairly strong and doing them up tight with a regular ratchet handle and not straining is enough.

    If you have any questions PM me and I will help you through the job. I did my timing belt a few thousand miles ago also if you are planning to do this too. I did not renew the tensioner stud as it was still tight and straight. I did this early too as the belt was 4 years old and only completed 75k not the 95k mileage limit.
     
    1 1 0
     

  7. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Halifax, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    8 Post(s)
    That's great news, i'm glad i don't have to fiddle with the timing belt and the gears of the BS. From what i understand, when I remove the balancing shaft, the intermediary and primary gears are attached to the balancing shaft, so when I reinstalll it, I need to put crank gear TDC mark at the main crank gear as shown above and then mate it with the crank gear. At what point do i use the balancing shaft timing tool? is that just to show that both shafts are level? won't i know that when the notch the tool goes into is at 12 O clock? If there's no official torque spec for the bolts that bolt the BS to the sump then what are those figures that i posted above?

    This is for NEW balancer unit to cylinder block bolts (if you are not renewing them do not use these settings):

    M7 bolts - Stage 1 is 13 Nm (10 lbf ft) and Stage 2 is further angle-tighten by 90 degrees

    M8 bolts - Stage 1 is 20 Nm (15 lbf ft) and Stage 2 is further angle-tighten by 90 degrees

    Thanks for the offer of additional help, I most definitely will need it. I will PM you when i get started. most likely i will start within a month but i can already hear the turbo rattling time to time as random oil pressure drop. i think its the turbo, i hope not!
     
    0 0 0
     

  8. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Rustington, West Sussex UK
    Posts
    903
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    18 Post(s)
    Bolts (12 or 13 of them iirc) holding the two halves of the BS unit together have no published torque. Those 8 bolts (2 x M7 and 6 x M8 bolts - 2 lengths for the M8 of 5 bolts of longer length and one short) holding the unit to the block are torqued as listed.

    The timing should stay locked at TDC for the entire duration of the balance shaft job. When offering the BS to the block the shafts unless locked by the alignment pin tool would be free to rotate so you apply the pin tool to the unit hold it in place and lift the BS up to the block. The intermediary gear will automatically mesh into the right place against the crank gear if you keep the alignment tool held tight to stop the shafts moving. Only remove the pin tool AFTER the unit is bolted up and there is no need to mark any gears as location is set by timing tools and shafts alignment pin tool. Needs 2 to do it - believe me!
     
    0 0 0
     

  9. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Halifax, West Yorkshire
    Posts
    54
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    8 Post(s)
    Instead of removing the whole balance shaft, can you not remove half of it with the bolts that have no torque specs? Okay, I understand but it'll make more sense when you answer the above question. I am going to do a trial on my old engine of putting timing in TDC, removing sump and taking off balance shaft and then re-installing everything. If I take the sump off my engine that I have in my car and find out its a chain it'll be a nastier surprise than me going to Thailand and pulling a 'ladies' skirt down lol.
     
    0 0 0
     

  10. Re: Balance shaft/timing job 
    #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Rustington, West Sussex UK
    Posts
    903
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    18 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DieselMonster View Post
    Instead of removing the whole balance shaft, can you not remove half of it with the bolts that have no torque specs? Okay, I understand but it'll make more sense when you answer the above question. I am going to do a trial on my old engine of putting timing in TDC, removing sump and taking off balance shaft and then re-installing everything. If I take the sump off my engine that I have in my car and find out its a chain it'll be a nastier surprise than me going to Thailand and pulling a 'ladies' skirt down lol.
    Interesting theory but looking at the photos of my unit, taking off just the lower half will disturb the primary and intermediary meshing of the BS gears when the primary shaft comes away with the bottom half which means you will definitely need to take more time and ensure the gears are refitted allowing the correct mesh of the shafts and gears leaving the proper backlash. The top half bolted against the block also primarily holds the shafts and has the oil channels plus the pump itself and in my opinion would be a much harder and precise job (I have done 5 of these now and all have been relatively stress free, the engines started and running well despite disturbing the gears and factory set tolerances). Even when you do split the unit you do not want to disturb the primary shaft or its mesh with the intermediate gear. You would also never get the oil to stay in the channels machined in the top half only which faces down and I have never refitted a unit with empty oil channels in case the first minute where oil has not reached the BS unit scores the shells for which there are no available replacements although the assembly oil should give the engine a few minutes grace. The bottom of BS unit is however bathed partly in the sump oil but I'm not sure by how much.
     
    0 0 0
     

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. B7 oil pump balance shaft?
    By Imran in forum Passat - B7 Forum 2011 - 2015
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-05-2016, 06:16 PM
  2. Balance shaft & hex
    By gareth2689 in forum Audi A4 - B8 Forum - 2008 - 2015
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 22-01-2014, 05:31 PM
  3. balance shaft?
    By huyton1 in forum Audi A4 - B7 Forum - 2005 - 2008
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 18-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Tags for this Thread

View Tag Cloud

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




  



Disclaimer: VW Audi Forum is an "independant enthusiast website", administered in line with guidelines supplied by VAG in the UK, and is in no way related to any of the Worldwide Volkswagen,Audi,Seat,Skoda,Bentley,Bugatti,Porsche or Lamborghini group of Companies. For official up to date information on any of there vehicles, please visit the official websites. Any comments made throughout this website, are the views of the respective poster, and in no way represent the views of the VW Audi Forum Administration, or the worldwide Volkswagen & Audi Group of companies.


VW Audi Forum do not vet and are not responsible for any information which is posted in this forum. All content is viewed and used by you at your own risk and we do not warrant the accuracy or reliability of any of the information.


Copyright: Certain "words", "phrases" and "Images" used on this website by the Administration are "Copyright" of Volkswagen GB, Volkswagen AG (Germany), Audi GB, Audi AG (Germany), Volkswagen Motorsport GB, Volkswagen Motorsport AG (Germany), Audi Motorsport AG (Germany), Volkswagen Racing GB, Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche and Lamborghini. No image can be replicated by anyone WITHOUT the relevant Companies written permission.


All trademarks and copyrights remain property of their respective owners.

No part of the VW Audi Forum website or forum may be reproduced without written permission from the site administration


PLEASE NOTE - PERSONAL ABUSE, ABUSE AGAINST THIS OR ANY OTHER WEBSITE OR ANY COMPANY WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. OFFENDERS WILL BE MODERATED OR EVEN BANNED.


This website and forum are best viewed at a minimum resolution of 1024 by 768.



  



- VW AUDI Forum - The #1 Volkswagen (VW) Group Forum - Volkswagen (VW) - Audi - Seat - Skoda - Bentley - Bugatti - Lamborghini - Porsche - VW Audi Forum -


- www.vwaudiforum.co.uk - www.vwaudiforum.co.uk -