Cold Start problem on my 2002 Passat TDI

[Ovation1357]

I've got an old Passat, which unfortunately hasn't been too reliable since I bought it about 3 years ago. It had 120K on the clock with a good service history. It's a 1.9 TDI Sport model from 2002 with automatic transmission - I believe the engine is an 'AWX' code.
It's now just passed 170k miles and I've ended up spending quite a lot of money on it (see history below) only now to be faced with an intermittent starting problem which may cost a load more :-(
Right now it's being looked at by an experienced ex-VW engineer and he's not been able to form a firm diagnosis - his best guess is that the injector seals could be leaking, but I'm not willing to gamble about £300 on reconditioning them just on a hunch. He's aware of my position, and to his credit, he is currently trying to his best to diagnose this without costing me any significant money.

I'm edging towards scrapping it and I've set myself a hard limit of £300 to fix this problem, or else the car goes. However, having had nearly £600 worth of work done in the past month and over £1k on a cylinder head last year (see history) - I'm on that knife edge where I feel it still owes me, but yet I could just be throwing good money after bad :-( The car's probably only worth about £500 to sell judging by what's currently on eBay so I'd really value some opinions as to whether there are other likely causes to be considered, or whether I should just give up.
In other respects, it is lovely to drive and (touch wood) all the electronics are working, except a rear door which very occasionally fails to lock/unlock.

Thank you in advance to anyone who's able to take a look at the information I've included below and give my their opinions on this problem

The problem now:
This car has always started 'on the button'.
In the recent few weeks, mainly during very cold weather, it began failing to start in the morning even after several initial cranks.
I would then wait for pre-heat, try again and it'd eventually go after another few cranks.
Once warm, or driven within a few hours it would start on the button. No noticeable problems while driving.
Last Saturday afternoon (about 16 hours after last being driven, although the previous day I'd started it fine after 24 hours of non-use) it refused to start at all.
I cranked it until I got a scary-looking "STOP!" oil pressure warning, so I then stopped.
The RAC came out. Tried eazi-start (fired just once but didn't go); checked fuel line, hand primed fuel. Nothing. No fault codes on ECU. Cranked loads until battery was getting weak.
The car was moved from facing up-hill on my driveway (how I always usually park it), to facing slightly down-hill on the road
On Monday the RAC came out to tow me to the garage. The guy had another go at starting, and after a good few seconds of cranking, it began spluttering and then started.

I think the car's history may be significant, especially because of the cam belt problems and subsequent work last year (see below).

Questions (please :-D)
1) In particular, I've read lots about EGR valves. Mine is leaking oil, but I gather that in itself is typical of a car this age. I read about EGRs causing starting problems due to sticking and/or being clogged up; cleaning them; removing/deleting them - all sorts... The garage don't believe the EGR is related to this problem, nor have they ever needed to clean the EGR or Inlet Manifold as detailed in various VAG forums... Any opinions here please?

2) There are also some various hints in threads about TDIs in general - that incorrect timing might/can cause issues specifically with cold starting. The garage has hooked up to VCDS and reports that the timing is spot-on according to that, but they seem to concur with other advice I've read that checking it physically (about 2 hours labour charge) is the only way to be sure - however they also are not convinced it has anything to do with my problem.... However, I've read accounts that the Injection Pump can have the lock pin inserted into the wrong hole a few degrees away from the correct one; and an American guy ranting about seeing several that were a full 180degrees out. In my mind, incorrect timing isn't impossible as it would have been done after my belt failure (see history), but is there any real chance that I'd have made it since last May all the way to these current freezing temperatures before experiencing an issue?

3) It seems that doing things 'by the book' - Injector seals, and the single-use bolts, should *always* be replaced if removed. My injectors were moved from the old head to the new without any of this. Is this strong enough evidence to support the theory of leaking seals causing my start problem? If so, how much should I be complaining to my garage that they reused the old seals and bolts?

History of the car before this problem started:

• Shortly after buying it the turbo self-destructed (around 125k miles). I had this replaced by a VW specialist with a genuine part.
• First winter after I bought it, the plenum chamber filled up with water and compromised the cabin filter and ECU seals causing gearbox controller limp mode + false alarms. Replaceing seals and drying out fixed this, thankfully.
• At the end of 2015 I had a major service including timing belt (~155k)
• ~5000 miles later, the engine very suddenly stalled at about 20mph. Loud squealing belt sound on restart which stopped as I pulled away
• RAC suspected possible alternator bearing problem - Garage found no fault but replaced old battery
• on my next journey one of the timing belt guide pulleys (a rigid one - NOT the tensioner) sheared off causing the belt to go completely slack, thus a break down on motorway.
• The garage did the belt under warranty, turned the engine over by hand and told me the root cause of the failure was excessive camshaft/tappet wear
• No valve damage reported by garage despite loss of belt tension at ~70mph
• Cylinder Head was replaced (£900 for just camshafts vs. £1000 for full recon head including the camshafts, so I chose new head on advice that they're quite prone to cracking)
• So .... new head + camshafts + tappets, new alternator, new timing belt kit, new aux belt all done around May last year
• I've just learned that the garage did not replace the injector seals when replacing the head and it looks like they probably re-used the single-use bolts too.
• Since the major repair, the engine always over-revved briefly on first start. I ignored this until now...
• There's an oil leak on the EGR valve. Garage has advised to ignore it and just watch oil level / top-up owing to it being not worth fixing.

History since starting problems:

• It's probably a coincidence but one of the turbo hoses split last week (10/01/17) resulting in loss of turbo boost
• As a result I ended up at the garage a couple of days earlier than I'd booked for checking the cold start issue, and had the hose replaced (£100 for a hose )
• Garage read a Coolant Temp Sensor fault on VCDS and replaced the sensor (No more over-rev on start now, but no difference to cold start problem).
• Garage have advised me that ribbed-belt tensioner is worn and damaging the belt (the belt kit is >£100 from VW)
• Two days after the above work, I experience the complete non-start failure detailed in my problem description (at the top of this post).
• Garage ran the engine, then clamped the fuel hoses overnight. Tried starting this morning, but still took a bit of cranking to start.

[Rob69]

Hi
I'll try and answer some of you queries as i also have a B5.5 with 1.9 AWX engine.

You say the starting issues began in the cold weather but don't mention if your mechanic has checked the glow plugs or glow plug circuit.
He thinks the injector seals may be leaking and is probably onto something given your starting problems sound like air getting into the system and the fact the old o rings were used during the head swap ( what a PITA for the sake of new o rings). Has the oil level in the sump risen and does the oil seem diluted with diesel?
See this link to an older thread on PD injector change
Attention Pd Injector Seals - Page 2

I don't have too much faith in the garage you've been using for all this work; the timing belt story and their 'root cause' analysis is stretching things a bit! I can't see any feasible way in which a worn PD AWX camshaft and buckets could lead to a broken belt idler. If they'd replaced the belt and hopefully water pump, tensioner and idler 5000 miles earlier then it is highly unlikely that the idler would shear off, unless the idler was overtightened. doing all that work but not changing the injector bolts or seals is pretty poor work as well. You mention having 'camshafts' and belt 'idlers' - are you sure this is a 1.9 AWX? as that engine has only one camshaft and one idler on the belt slack side, just below the tensioner. You also mention from your research the injection pump locking pin being in the wrong hole - that's not applicable to the PD engine. The garage don't seem too sure either:
The garage has hooked up to VCDS and reports that the timing is spot-on according to that, but they seem to concur with other advice I've read that checking it physically (about 2 hours labour charge) is the only way to be sure - however they also are not convinced it has anything to do with my problem.
Also reported no valve damage but recommended a replacement head anyway as the 'camshafts' ( more than one?) were 900 quid or 1000 for shafts and head??? none of this really adds up to me!
The parts prices you are paying seem a bit steep as well, I'm seeing ribbed auxy belt tensioners for 30 - 40 quid elsewhere, rather than a VW one for 100 quid.

Hopefully your ex VW tech can help you more than the garage, I'm seeing injector and rocker shaft bolts kits for 65 quid and Bosch seal kit for 12.50 from Darkside developments, I think he can come in under you budget?

[Ovation1357]

Hi
I'll try and answer some of you queries as i also have a B5.5 with 1.9 AWX engine.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read through this and respond :-)

You say the starting issues began in the cold weather but don't mention if your mechanic has checked the glow plugs or glow plug circuit.

He haven't mentioned checking glow plugs. He sounded very surprised that my timing belt idler failure hadn't bent any valves, but told me that for them to do a compression test they'll have to remove the glow plugs, which he said can get corroded in and snap requiring new ones if that happens. I trust in that way that he's being conscious about my budget.

He thinks the injector seals may be leaking and is probably onto something given your starting problems sound like air getting into the system and the fact the old o rings were used during the head swap ( what a PITA for the sake of new o rings). Has the oil level in the sump risen and does the oil seem diluted with diesel?

I honestly don't know, and the car's currently with the mechanic. The engine is using oil - I know that, and probably at a greater rate than before the new head. Unfortunately I failed to check the level since the major work in May, and in November my check oil light came on. I topped it up with the correct spec oil (at horrendous cost from a petrol station) within minutes of that warning, but I know it's not ideal to have let it get so low.
I did get an advisory about an Oil leak on my MOT in mid-december. This was done by the original garage - they told me that they changed the sump plug ( I think they said it was dripping ), and at that point the oil level was fine approx one month since my low oil - they emptied it into a bucket to do the plug and then poured it back in.

See this link to an older thread on PD injector change
Attention Pd Injector Seals - Page 2

Thanks - I spotted this shortly after posting. It's enough to put me off considering a DIY attempt.

I don't have too much faith in the garage you've been using for all this work;

Me neither - This is why I've taken it elsewhere this time.

the timing belt story and their 'root cause' analysis is stretching things a bit! I can't see any feasible way in which a worn PD AWX camshaft and buckets could lead to a broken belt idler.

New mechanic was also sceptical of this story and suggested over-tightened bolts. I wasn't previously aware that the idler pulley was part of the kit - I *think* I recall the garage telling me that it's not part of the kit so they couldn't have over-tightened it, but don't quote me on that.

If they'd replaced the belt and hopefully water pump, tensioner and idler 5000 miles earlier then it is highly unlikely that the idler would shear off, unless the idler was overtightened.

They claimed that the combination of a worn cam (or cams) hitting worn tappets may have caused jolts which stressed the timing components. There seems to be a fair amount of documented evidence of camshaft wear in TDI PD engines - Camshaft lobe wear inspection and replacement on TDI PD engine | VW TDI forum, Audi, Porsche, and Chevy Cruze diesel forum and TDI PD engines and Cam wear - something all TDi owners should be aware of! | evvo.co.uk
On the myturbodiesel page (which I read thoroughly when researching what the garage told me) the guys states "If the lobes catch on a lifter it will cause much more damage with a chance of throwing the timing belt"
Interestingly, the guys at the original garage claimed they'd never encountered a Passat with camshaft wear before, only Sharans. And the new VW guys told me that only 150bhp engines suffer this problem. This is all contrary to the evidence presented online.
Regardless - the reason I entertained the garage's root cause explanation is that it seemed feasible given the above links. However, I was pretty miffed that they hadn't inspected the cams during the timing belt change, given that they were 'VW Specialists' (I've since heard that they no longer have any of their ex-VW staff though)
I suppose it's possible that a combination of bad wear like this and an over-tightened pulley could have meant it was the weakest point and sheared instead of the belt jumping?

doing all that work but not changing the injector bolts or seals is pretty poor work as well.

That's certainly what I'm thinking - I just phoned them today to ask directly and they confirmed that they had not done this :-/ Question is whether I've got any comeback on this, because suddenly I'm faced with an expensive problem because they didn't do the job properly.

You mention having 'camshafts' and belt 'idlers' - are you sure this is a 1.9 AWX? as that engine has only one camshaft and one idler on the belt slack side, just below the tensioner.

Sorry for the confusion - it's definitely a 1.9 PD TDI and I'm 95% certain it's an AWX... Only one camshaft. I've not seen the timing assembly myself and am probably using plural despite there being only one of them

You also mention from your research the injection pump locking pin being in the wrong hole - that's not applicable to the PD engine. The garage don't seem too sure either:
The garage has hooked up to VCDS and reports that the timing is spot-on according to that, but they seem to concur with other advice I've read that checking it physically (about 2 hours labour charge) is the only way to be sure - however they also are not convinced it has anything to do with my problem.

Fair enough it is not applicable to PD - a lot of the articles are about Jettas in the USA and it's hard for me to determine what's what. Having looked at some videos today of how the vacuum tandem pump is driven by the camshaft, I guess it makes sense that it's not another sprocket on the timing belt.

Also reported no valve damage but recommended a replacement head anyway as the 'camshafts' ( more than one?) were 900 quid or 1000 for shafts and head??? none of this really adds up to me!
The parts prices you are paying seem a bit steep as well, I'm seeing ribbed auxy belt tensioners for 30 - 40 quid elsewhere, rather than a VW one for 100 quid.

Yeah - I'm learning that now. Although actually it might not be quite so bad - So I was quoted around £900 inclusive of labour + VAT to do the camshaft which included new tappets, camshaft bearing (I think), camshaft bolts and the ancillary gubbins involved.
I'd found some recon heads on eBay which appeared to be quite cheap and included the camshaft already fitted. Ultimately, the garage claim they ordered one such head but didn't read the small print that it was just a bare head unlike the photo. They claim they then sourced the relevant parts to complete the job and took a loss on it to get me sorted. This seemed a genuine claim.
It's also the reason why didn't give them hell about the terrible stink of Diesel left in the cabin where they've put some engine parts on the back passenger floor and diesel had soaked into the carpet. I ended up paying for it to be professionally cleaned because the smell was making me feel really sick.

Hopefully your ex VW tech can help you more than the garage, I'm seeing injector and rocker shaft bolts kits for 65 quid and Bosch seal kit for 12.50 from Darkside developments, I think he can come in under you budget?

I'm hoping so. I'll look up Darkside tomorrow and price up the stuff. I'm looking at about £180 inc VAT for labour to get the pros to do this, but using parts from VW would push this up to nearly £400.

Again, thank you - and I hope my answers above help clarify what's going on :-)

[Rob69]

Sounds like your new mechanic is thinking along the right lines! If they used a timing belt kit it does include the tensioner and idler, you can get just the belt on its own though for a cheaper job, I've seen just the belt get changed on newer cars where it is the first belt change at say 40k miles. It is likely that the valves got clattered during the 2015 belt issue, if you are using oil now then it is also likely that a piston crown is damaged or a cylinder wall scored, allowing oil to pass. If the head was only replaced in 2015 then they must have either fitted your old glow plugs or fitted new ones ( probably the old ones if they didn't even change the injector o rings) so if your new guy tries to remove them they hopefully shouldn't be seized in.
Cams do wear on the AWX, a guy posted on here recently his DIY AWX camshaft changeout.
https://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/s...t-quot-)/page4
i think he paid around 300 quid all in for parts. I still don't buy the worn cam leading to broken idler theory! The camshaft would sound absolutely terrible before it would begin to affect the slack side of the belt tension and the idler itself. The idler carries very little belt angle across it, look at some photos of the belt set up and you'll see what I mean.
good luck with it,
PS - I like the leaking sump plug story - oil into a bucket then back in the engine!!!FFS

[bk.bas99]

Sounds like you have been ripped off by a shoddy garage for all the work you have had done (sounds like they should be named and shamed). Can't see how worn cam could affect timing in any way, and fancy not using new seals. New stretch bolts are a MUST when changing the head.

I have had an AWX 1.9 for last 6 years and done 80K miles in it since I bought it. Now done 155K. I have done most of servicing myself as it is very easy to work on (mostly). I also had the squealing alternator. It is the alternator freee run clutch pulley at fault, but rather than buy all the tools and clutch I bought a fully reconditioned OEM valeo alternator with 2 year g'tee for £75 delivered from Schmitz RE in Birmingham. Only big expense has been the timing belt as the radiator was also shot so ended up with £600 bill for the belts, rad etc as decided it was too much to do on the drive. Get a cheap VCDS shareware lead off ebay, a Haynes manual and have a go yourself. For the jobs you feel out of your expertise use this forum to get recommendations for well respected local VW independants. There are many who do know what they are doing. The AWX is good for many many miles if fettled properly

[Ovation1357]

Thanks again guys for your really helpful responses..

A combination of your opinions an a chat with the new mechanic seems to conclude that the story of cam wear causing timing belt failure is dubious at best. However, it was too long ago for me to do much about now, and I unfortunately never remembered to ask to see the camshaft or tappets which were claimed to be the cause.

This morning, I've spoken to the senior mechanic at the old garage about this situation and he agreed that an injector leak sounded plausible but also told me that despite not having been invoiced for injector seals/bolts - he assured me that they would have replaced them, and most importantly (to me), that they will be covered by their 12 month warranty.

Therefore, while I remain doubtful about the original camshaft story, and believe it's probably that the idler pulley being overtightened was the true cause of this failure. I'm not going to name and shame them yet.

I'm going to take the car back to them on the agreement that they will diagnose at no cost (they had questions about presence of diesel in the oil, etc - which I can't answer), and if they agree with the probable cause being injector seals - they'll do it under warranty. I can't ask too much more than that for now.

My ex-VW chap says it's not impossible for the tandem pump to be at fault, but having clamped off both sides of the fuel filter and given the fuel nowhere to go - he puts a much higher probability on it being the injector seals.

As a side note - I have got a cheap Bluetooth ODB2 interface which I hook up to the Torque app on my android phone, but this seems to be of little use on VAG as most stuff is not exposed via OBD. With the uncertainty about whether I'll keep this car, and whether my next one will be VAG, I can't really justify buying VAG-COM for myself. Is there any other recommended cheap/free software which is good for VAG cars? Any chance it'll work on an OBD interface, or do I still need a specific cable?


Fingers Crossed!

[bk.bas99]

Thanks again guys for your really helpful responses..

As a side note - I have got a cheap Bluetooth ODB2 interface which I hook up to the Torque app on my android phone, but this seems to be of little use on VAG as most stuff is not exposed via OBD. With the uncertainty about whether I'll keep this car, and whether my next one will be VAG, I can't really justify buying VAG-COM for myself. Is there any other recommended cheap/free software which is good for VAG cars? Any chance it'll work on an OBD interface, or do I still need a specific cable?


Fingers Crossed!

Yes, you can buy the basic VCDS lead off ebay which comes with VCDS lite. It's old shareware version but works on the B5. You can interogate codes and alarms and most importantly clear alarm codes. I have one and it works fine
USB Cable KKL VAG-COM 409.1 OBD2 II OBD Diagnostic Scanner VW/Audi/Seat VCDS | eBay

[niall campbell]

This is what I would

1) forget about old garage , should have replaced tensioners, pullys etc as a kit, but hey ho maybe they considered quite rightly that no problems present, these things happen

2) GLOW PLUGS no one has changed them. Always wait all year round for the glow plug light to out before starting the car. Wait 1 to 2 seconds after the light goes out before starting also, as the glow plugs are still heating up and this will preserve the life of the glow plugs. BUY BOSCH OR NGK ones, all 4 and fit .

3) DIESEL FILTER replace as the filter has a water drain that nobody uses. The bottom of the filter traps water, the water will freeze and also freezes the diesel surrounding it. This is also forgotten about by garages as a pain to replace, I do mine every 20,000 some do it every 60,000 but I go to cairngorms and minus 30 is not uncommon. My car always start first time.

4) SPEED of starter is another factor to check. It has to be at least 220 rpm I think if memory serves me right on your age of car. Newer ones can be 250 to 280 rpm or the ecu will not allow fuel to run into the engine

5) BATTERY check. Cold weather kills batterys, any dud cell ( s) will slow the starter down .................... no fault of the starter. It might not sound as if starter is slow. This check is FREE , just google for a free check

I would do Number 5 as a good starter, then 3, 4 and 2 I reckon in that order

[Ovation1357]

I've got a bit of an update about this problem...

(and thanks for your tips Niall - somehow I missed the notification that you'd replied to this post until now...)

I had a conversation with the boss at the original garage, who insisted that despite what I'd been told the previous day; the injector seals would have been replaced even though they didn't invoice for them. Regardless of whether or not this is true, he's willing to cover them under warranty. So I took the car up there shortly after my last post. They had it for a week and the ******* thing decided to start on the button every time they tried it, despite having some very cold weather, and leaving it jacked up at the front over night to simulate parking uphill. On this basis I agreed that replacing injector seals seemed premature.
I collected the car and then didn't drive it for a couple of days - it took loads of cranking to start - this has been my experience every one of the few times I've used it... Lots of cranking, no firing initially, then starting to fire and finally into life - we're talking about a good 30-60 secs of cranking to get it started.

Today the guys came out from the garage to diagnose it whilst in the failed state. When they popped the hose off the fuel filter with the aim of checking the lifter pump, some air immediately hissed out followed by bubbles as the fuel pumped. So we've finally seen confirmation that the problem is because of air getting into the fuel. They monitored the cranking rpm whilst turning it - initially the computer showed nothing (like 0 rpm, and for several cranks) but it seems it might have just been being slow as it then gave a reading over 200rpm but I can't remember the exact number.

So I'm going to get the garage to replace the injector seals under warranty, although it's odd that this problem never arose while they had the car, and I can see why they'd believe that a leak would not cause an intermittent problem. The tandem pump remains a possible cause, and they've suggested that an injector could be stuck open and letting air in. It looks like it would cost me around £100 to have all four injectors professionally tested and I'm tempted to do this.

What do folks here think? Has anyone experience a faulty injector letting air in, and given that the single-use bolts and seals would have to be replaced yet again if test the injectors at a later date should I get them tested, or am I wasting my money?
Has anyone got any (technical) theories which could help explain why air wasn't leaking into the fuel whilst the garage had the car?

As always - my thanks in advance :-D