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Thread: Seriously iffy brakes!

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  1. Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #1
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    Hi all,
    Just joined to spread my limited knowledge and see if anyone can help me with my little problem.
    I was coming home down the lanes, i chucked the car into a left hand bend wednesday night,
    and as I came out the other side I got a warning buzzer and the amber ABS and
    'exclamation mark in a triangle with a round arrow around it' and the red brake dash
    warning lights all came on. I stopped up the road and switched the ignition off
    and on. A force of habit at home with the computer...
    All lights went off and
    I continued on my way home.

    Thursday morning, I drove to work and after about
    two hundred yards, after braking for only the second time, the brake pedal went
    90% solid with what felt like severe ABS pulsing through the brake pedal and
    virtually no brakes.

    What a way to 'concentrate' the
    mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I let off and braked again and scrubbed off enough
    speed to make the turn.
    Fortunately it was just me on the road at the time.
    If there had been a car in front turning right, I'd have parked on it's back
    seat!
    Again all three warning lights were illuminated on the dash.
    I pulled over a little way up the road and tried the 'reboot' again. All was well.
    Until I stopped for the next junction, when I got the Christmas tree lights on
    again, but better brakes. So I rebooted again. This time, when I drove off and
    changed gear, I noticed the revs were going up and down. Wavering between about
    1500 and 2500rpm.

    Again I stopped a bit up the road and this time checked the brake
    fluid level. It was fine.
    That's all I could do armed only with a pen and a
    locking wheel nut, I then carried on to work with no further mishaps, other than
    three lights on the dash!

    Then, on the way home, I called in at a
    mate's garage and he put his code reader on it.


    I got two
    codes:

    00267 ABS outlet valve front right
    No symptom
    Intermittent

    00597 Difference between revolution sensors
    No symptom
    Intermittent


    What do they mean? A new ABS
    block/sensor?


    On the way home, the buzzer and lights would return,
    but now the brake warning light flashes on and off continually. The hard pedal
    hasn't returned, but the wavering revs did a couple of times.


    I have had some history with the brakes since I bought the car in November last
    year.

    I bought it after the previous owner had hit a SERIOUS pot hole,
    which took out two tyres, a rim and popped the driver's seat airbag.
    That's now all been sorted, as has the osf hub which had a couple of cross threaded wheel
    bolt threads.

    If constant pressure was held on the brake pedal it slowly
    sank to the floor. So, while changing the hub, we put a new master cylinder on
    too and as the caliper was sticking a bit, we threw a new one of those on it too. The
    brake fluid was black, so that was flushed through and changed.

    In the three weeks since this was done, I've been occasionally getting binding brakes.
    I thought it was just the osf, as it's wheel was warmer than the nsf but
    last Monday night, I had to pull over as over a couple of miles I'd watched my
    average mpg drop from 41 down to 35 while driving at a steady 40/45 mph in sixth
    gear.
    When I pulled over, the brake pedal felt firmer than normal, almost
    like it was holding pressure? (This happened once before, last week)
    This time I felt all four wheels and it turned out to be both the osf AND the nsr brakes, with the rear brake
    smelly and very hot, almost scorchio!


    If me chucking it into a left hander has somehow upset the osf ABS sensor, which has a new flange/hub, could that account
    for the two fault codes?
    Not sure why the revs would be going up and down...
    I don't know if the nsr caliper is buggered and needs replacing, or
    could the flexible brake pipe need replacing? Can they break down inside and
    restrict the fluid return?

    My mechanic mate is booked up until next week some time, and I'm not sitting on the drive in the rain stripping brakes, so
    i'll be using the Disco until this is sorted.


    Anybody care to comment? Laugh? I'm easy


    It's not totally
    standard, as it's got a decat down pipe on it and judging by the way I was neck and neck with a Focus 170 last month, me only having to give way due to my lane disappearing, I'm guessing it's already around the 170bhp mark. I had thought it was more as I was getting wheelspin in first, second AND third.
    Since getting the tracking done and a couple of new budget tyres on the font, I'm only getting spin in first and second now.
    Apparently, the one corner was 6 point something out...

    I'm hoping i'll be able to average more than 42mpg on the tank once I have all FOUR wheels freewheeling and pointing in the same
    direction...
     
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  2. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #2
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    What part number/make of master cylinder did you fit?

    How did you bleed the brake system?

    Do you have access to full VCDS? I can see you have access to a version of it, but which one?
    Obviously you had the wheel bearing replaced when the hub flange was done but which make of bearing/flange and was the correct circlip support tool used?

    The brakes are plumbed diagonally, the left front left rear is an odd symptom

    I have very little (if any) trouble with the Teves ABS GI Mk60 pump, they are extremely reliable.

    Some of the symptoms suggest a faulty brake pedal switch, has this been replaced, removed etc when doing the master cylinder?
    Anthropogenic climate change, the biggest con inflicted on mankind since religion...

    Slava Ukraini
    !


     
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  3. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #3
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    Hi Crasher,
    Thanks for replying.
    I won't call Ian now, as it's half past midnight, and I'm likely to get a slap when I next see him...
    From memory, it was a Bosch master cylinder. I'll try to dig out the details from my computer tomorrow.
    I don't know how he bled it, but the brakes felt fine, until that left hander...
    I'll find out what diagnostics he uses.
    I don't know what make the flange/hub was. It was bought online from Carspares Direct through ebay for £21.90 with two years warranty.
    I assume he used a circlip tool suitable for the job, or does the job require a special tool?
    I don't know if you misread, or I wrote it down wrong, but the problem is with the front right and left rear, which would fall in line with the diagonal plumbing. you mentioned.
    I would guess that the brake pedal switch wasn't replaced, as he would have said. Whether or not it was removed when replacing the master cylinder I don't know.
    I'll know more tomorrow after I've spoken with him.

    Regards
    Rob
     
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  4. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #4
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    I think you have a pedal push rod to master cylinder clearance issue, get the other information first.
    Anthropogenic climate change, the biggest con inflicted on mankind since religion...

    Slava Ukraini
    !


     
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  5. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #5
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    Hi Crasher,
    Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been bashing my head against the brick wall that is buycarparts.co.uk.
    Happy with their parts, but trying to get back on to their site after losing my password has been harder than getting blood from a stone!
    Right, to answer your questions:
    It was a Bosch master cylinder, part number 0 986 480 820.
    He bled the brakes by pressurising the system and forcing the fluid through from the reservoir end.
    Yes he has full VCDS.
    My mistake. He didn't use any circlip tool when changing the flange as there was only a nut, no circlip.
    One fact I realise i have missed out, is that the osf brake was occasionally binding before he changed the master cylinder, flange and brake caliper. I don't know if the nsr was binding too. I've only found this brake to bind on one occasion.
     
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  6. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #6
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    Can you send me your reg number by PM?
    Anthropogenic climate change, the biggest con inflicted on mankind since religion...

    Slava Ukraini
    !


     
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  7. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #7
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    Sorry for the delay, one of my chaps had the cheek to take a week’s holiday (STAFF!) and I had to put my ovaries on and do some real work for a change!

    The genuine number for your master cylinder WAS 6Q0 611 019 E and in August 2010 this changed to 6Q0 611 019 Q. The bad news is....... Bosch doesn’t list a cross reference to either of these numbers!

    When we fit brake master cylinders I am seriously fussy about what I use (even more **** than I normally am), it has to be genuine, ATE, FTE or TRW and that's about it.

    That makes my choices for yours

    VW 6Q0 611 019 Q

    ATE 24.2120-1734.3

    FTE H209104.3.1

    TRW PMF585

    The Bosch number 0 986 480 820 does however go over to an FTE H209104.3.1 but it could be any one of three TRW numbers including PMF585 but ATE do not list a cross reference at all AND most importantly, ATE are THE original manufacturer of your cars master cylinder.

    The Bosch number 0 986 480 820 used to be 0 204 024 227 and Bosch only list the new number as being for a Fox and the old number for a Fabia and that is it! In their cross reference list they say it replaces VAG numbers 6Q0 611 019 C which the VW system recognises but does not say what it fits and the H and J are for a Fox although some Fox models do use the 6Q0 611 019 Q . What really worries me is the last change listed by Bosch 6Q0 611 019 J was changed by VW to a 5Z0 611 019 P which is Fox and Gol (Brazilian market car) and it then changes into a servo change which then changes again!

    If I use my system to do a direct look up for the master cylinder for your car, Bosch do not list one.

    After that, my brain is melting, I need a drink!
    Anthropogenic climate change, the biggest con inflicted on mankind since religion...

    Slava Ukraini
    !


     
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  8. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #8
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    put your ovaries on, seriously ????
    Audi 80 tdi avant with 360,000 miles...
     
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  9. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by zollaf View Post
    put your ovaries on, seriously ????
    Only at the weekend.....
    Anthropogenic climate change, the biggest con inflicted on mankind since religion...

    Slava Ukraini
    !


     
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  10. Re: Seriously iffy brakes! 
    #10
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    Hi Crasher,
    I hope you managed to get a rest over the weekend after your hectic 'ovaries' week...
    Thanks again for your advice.
    I've never been as fussy as you regarding parts. I tend to go for the middle parts. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive, and NEVER from a main bleeder!
    Which one of the four would you recommend me ask my mechanic to order and fit?
     
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