Marines 'murdered man live on camera' - Debate

[DSG4ME]

I need to look at the details of the case more, but my initial reaction is that we're very quick to blame this guy & say that he should have acted more appropriately.

However I've never served in a cauldron of pressure, stress, anxiety etc that is a desert war zone. I can't know how I'd be in that scenario where you've taken down a member of the terrorist enemy who has been trying to kill me & my best mates. These soldiers go out every day knowing it could be their last if they put a foot wrong & step on an ied. They'll be surrounded by gunfire, explosions & the worst aspects of life - then they read about Lee Rigby etc, how does that affect their perspective of what's right & wrong when talking of Al Qaeda/Al Shabaab?

Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Exactly Brycie, you and another 59.5 Million people in this country but at least you know you know very little about war, most of the rest of the 59.5M don't have a clue, they've seen Band of Brothers and played COD3 and that's what they believe, try having to live with 360 degree vision 24/7, should I step there and lose my legs, me and Jimmy were meeting for a few beers tonight, oh I forgot Jim's in that tent over there in 8 pieces so I guess the beers ain't happening, Sarge I need a vest, so do I son but the powers that be needed the money for another meeting and general Brandy swigging session, Mr Hague suggests we find an old tank and cut it up and shape the metal and tie it onto ourselves and if we're short of bullets there's plenty of rocks and stones to throw at the enemy,

free our marine!

[DSG4ME]

That really is a load of rabble-rousing cr@p. Just because someone has a different viewpoint you label them 'pacifist-surrenderist'. I'm no apologist for any Afghan 'fighter', but how do you know he was a murderer? Have you actually seen him shoot someone in cold blood? What does that make the Marine?

Don't label me a pacifist surrenderist, I lived through the Second World War, so your analogy is wasted on me. Would you have had all British soldiers in that war behaving the same way as the Nazis? Likewise in Afghanistan? Like probably the majority of people in the UK, I don't think we should even ever have gone there - but that doesn't make them 'pacifists'.

Have a rant by all means, but don't set yourself up as some sort of hero with this 'Sorry guys, I'm out of here and forums for good', bleeding-heart rubbish, especially since you're obviously still lurking. I've heard it all before.

I'm watching with pride the Remembrance Commemoration at the Cenotaph, and will be attending the same thing at our French 'Cenotaph' tomorrow, remembering the members of my and other families' lost loved ones.

You shouldn't feel so honoured, that post wasn't just for you there were two or three replies that it applied to,

Just remember, however you want to cut it you are no better than those who tried a British killing machine for killing an Enemy killing machine, the clues are the Afghan would've been carrying an AK47 and shooting at the Marines or they would've just seen him as a civvy and stop checked him,

My dad lived WW2, he died a few years ago aged 81 so just how old are you to be claiming you lived it or did you mean you were born in 1943 and knew nothing about what was going on around you?

If the pacifist and surrenderist thing hit home on you perhaps you should look deep inside yourself, normally when a label like that enrages someone it's because they recognise something in it might be true,

I'm glad you'll be watching with pride again this year for ONE day, maybe next year you could remember the fallen on more than one day as it GMG that everybody comes out when they feel they have to, I watched the Normandie celebrations back in 1995 and sat in a room full of people adoring it who never ever gave the military or the war a second thought before hand and didn't the day after either, roll em out for Christmas and put em away again just after New Year mentality and it sucks,

I guess the difference is you think war can be fought with Queensbury rules, I know it can't, I know this whole thing is another product of making an example out of someone who should really be hailed as someone who makes the difference, thing is civvies ain't soldiers for a reason, the reason is because they don't have the stomach for it, those that do shouldn't be held accountable for things like this, had this been about the rape of an Afghan woman I'd be backing you but it isn't it's about doing what needs to be done and if that's not ok with you then there's nothing more I can add that will change your mind.

free our marine!

[Doctle Odd]

Firstly I'd like to say I have some reservations about this story and living in Ireland people might say I have no right to express an opinion but here goes. I have listened to the link Zollaf posted several times and read the transcript. It doesn't sound "real" to me. Those soldiers didn't appear to be under fire or panicking which is a little odd. Soldiers about to break the Geneva convention and discussing it? I watched a program recently about the WW2 landings. The British got a dead wino froze him then shipped his body to, I think, Italy. The body was uniformed and put in the water with important "secret" papers on it. Of course the Germans found it and altered the course of the war. This was a ruse and cunning and clever. Perhaps this soldier did shoot the wounded man, he wouldn't be the first soldier to do so on any side in any conflict however it's still the exception. Can anyone judge the NHS by Dr Harold Shipman or lorry drivers by Peter Sutcliffe? I'm not comparing these directly and I don't know. War is a nasty, dirty business and this war is truly awful. Had I have been there and armed when Lee Rigby was murdered I'd have shot those guys to death as I said in an earlier post. I'm with Zollaf on this, with something added. A set-up or did it ever happen? Cricket is a quintessentially English game and one of the few sports with delayed gratification. Who invents a game that's played over 5 days with breaks for lunch and tea and with the weekend off? Strategists methinks. My 2/- worth guys

[Quatrelle]

@Zollaf - I can't believe this poor guy was set up. Who would benefit, other than the people they're fighting against? My thought is that because it was found on a computer the authorities reckoned it would find its way onto the web and they wanted to be seen to be doing the 'right' thing before the $hit hit the fan. Once out in the open they could hardly pat him on the head.

@Doctle Odd - The guy was dumped in the water off the coast of Spain with papers in a successful attempt to fool the Germans regarding the invasion of Sicily. It saved my Allied lives.

@DSG - I was born before the Second World War, and don't lecture me on how I remember the people who have died for me and my freedom. One of my family was in a Lancaster that was shot down and never got out of the plane. My wife's father was captured by the Germans when he was landed in a glider during the attempt to capture Pegasus Bridge in France. The German holding the gun on him said 'For you, Tommy, the war is over'. Using your twisted logic I'm surprised he didn't shoot him.

I'm not sure how you equate my opinions with that of a pacifist (although a swift kick in the nuts might help you make up your mind), but having read your ignorant bad-mouthing I'm not really bothered one way or the other. When you have to resort to getting personal you've lost any little respect I might have had for your opinion.

[DSG4ME]

@Zollaf - I can't believe this poor guy was set up. Who would benefit, other than the people they're fighting against? My thought is that because it was found on a computer the authorities reckoned it would find its way onto the web and they wanted to be seen to be doing the 'right' thing before the $hit hit the fan. Once out in the open they could hardly pat him on the head.

Feasable

@Doctle Odd - The guy was dumped in the water off the coast of Spain with papers in a successful attempt to fool the Germans regarding the invasion of Sicily. It saved my Allied lives.

True Operation Mincemeat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@DSG - I was born before the Second World War, and don't lecture me on how I remember the people who have died for me and my freedom. One of my family was in a Lancaster that was shot down and never got out of the plane. My wife's father was captured by the Germans when he was landed in a glider during the attempt to capture Pegasus Bridge in France. The German holding the gun on him said 'For you, Tommy, the war is over'. Using your twisted logic I'm surprised he didn't shoot him.



I'm not sure how you equate my opinions with that of a pacifist (although a swift kick in the nuts might help you make up your mind), but having read your ignorant bad-mouthing I'm not really bothered one way or the other. When you have to resort to getting personal you've lost any little respect I might have had for your opinion.

So you're 80+ years old then and you are going to kick me in the nuts?

Plus this now makes you no better or worse than the Marine, you want to resort to violence because we have different opinions, the Marine wanted to finish the Taliban member off probably as a bit of score evener after seeing some of his mates take a Taliban bullet,

You lost my respect when you chose to side with those who think he's done anything wrong in a warzone, what if matey was bleeding out would it be even better to watch him die slowly? none of that has been mentioned has it, would he have made it to a medic, would you like your taxes paying for the evac unit to go in and get him, would you like a helo crew to go down on the way to the rescue because another Taliban soldier hit it with an rpg or similar? didn't think of any of that, and stop watching 50's war movies they aren't accurate one bit, in my younger days I had a lot to do with a lot of WWII Vets and all this horse about your wars over Tommy etc is ********, if a stormtrooper caught you you were dead end of as there wasn't enough food to keep taking prisoners, that's why they found all the POW's emaciated and close to death both civvy and soldier, just like the many arctic convoy guys who were left for shark bait or to freeze to death,

I understand your gentleman effort but that is fiction for movie theaters.


free our marine!

[Doctle Odd]

Thanks Quatrelle I'll look it up during the week. There is a history of service in my family that continues to this day. Today being armistice day I intend to remember family members that fought in 2 world wars not all of them made it back home and those that did were treated pretty shabbily IMO. One of my great uncles survived the Somme he never really talked about it but he was very odd. I suppose today it would be PTSD? another died at Suvla Bay probably vaporised as there's no grave. One uncle died in Normandy but other relatives went to fight and returned. Who knows what they seen or done? It's sad that after all that people like GWB start wars for personal reasons that they can't win. Meanwhile Germany takes over Europe with the pen instead of the gun

[Quatrelle]

DSG4ME - My 'threatening you with violence' has nothing to do with a difference of opinion, simply a natural response to your being unable to make a point without insulting me personally.

And now you're telling me that I, or my wife's father, was a liar? I suppose among your many other talents you were there?

And that a stormtrooper would have shot him? If he had shot him, what's the difference between the German and 'your' marine? Following your reasoning, I suppose it would have stopped him escaping from the PoW camp he spent the rest of the war in, and returning to the battlefield.

When I wore a uniform I was proud of it, because it was respected, like all those who walked down Whitehall yesterday, something you seem completely unable to understand.

By all means spew out another load of fictional bile (sharks in the Arctic?), but this time I won't bother reading it or dignify it by replying.
Best wishes
Q

[DSG4ME]

DSG4ME - My 'threatening you with violence' has nothing to do with a difference of opinion, simply a natural response to your being unable to make a point without insulting me personally.

And now you're telling me that I, or my wife's father, was a liar? I suppose among your many other talents you were there?

And that a stormtrooper would have shot him? If he had shot him, what's the difference between the German and 'your' marine? Following your reasoning, I suppose it would have stopped him escaping from the PoW camp he spent the rest of the war in, and returning to the battlefield.

When I wore a uniform I was proud of it, because it was respected, like all those who walked down Whitehall yesterday, something you seem completely unable to understand.

By all means spew out another load of fictional bile (sharks in the Arctic?), but this time I won't bother reading it or dignify it by replying.
Best wishes
Q

Fictional bile eh?, this is the exact words of an arctic convoy merchant seaman who was there, "there's nothing glorious in watching your mates burn to death covered in oil" that came out of the mouth of Tug Wilson in 1987 when I was talking to him about the war, so bile on all you like as it's just taken 70 years to get these guys a medal, something Tug didn't live to see,

Your threatning me has everything to do with it as if we were toe to toe you would "attempt" to hit me and your reason would be loss of temper because of difference of opinion, a Marine whose seen his mates die alongside him would have the same emotion towards an enemy,

Maybe he just got lucky and the German was one of those that didn't really want to be there but had to, but anyway German's aren't Taliban, Taliban doesn't wear a uniform and sneaks about after soft targets,

Tell me how old you are then if you are of that era, my dad would be 84 nearly now and he wasn't old enough to fight at the time so how old are you?

Don't bring others paying respects into it, it's your pomp and ceremony attitude and others like you who've incarcerated a loyal soldier of ours for doing his job, if that had been another soldier of a different nation that did wear uniform I doubt he would've shot him and would've taken him pow, but you should see how long your gentleman attitude lasts if you were being constantly sniped at from the hills which is what it's like out there and don't tell me I don't know because I do know exactly what it's like out there for a grunt.


free our marine!

[Doctle Odd]

[QUOTE=DSG4ME;858292]
Insulting old soldiers on armistice day? you're some man for one man. Anyone aged 86 or over today could have fought in the latter stages of WW2. Simple maths would tell you that, Respect?

[Brycie]

This could be an extremely good debate if we can try to keep it constructive & civil.

What gets me is that every soldier's commanding officer will be doing their best (I imagine) to drill it into the troops that the Taliban is a hateful, violent group that tortures & kills it's own women & children, wants nothing more than to kill our lads & need to be dealt with in a shoot to kill, without hesitation manner. Yet when the way our troops DO deal with the enemy that way & evidence of it leaks into the public domain, the soldiers are sent to prison for doing what's drilled into them.

If our troops were trained to be compassionate to the Taliban & were told to do what they can to avoid the loss of life & kill shots, how would they be able to kill a man without hesitating & without being overcome with guilt afterwards? They have to hate the enemy, or they'd all be off with ptsd every time they killedd a member of the Taliban.

The Government sent these lads over there to overthrow the Taliban by force. Then they lock a soldier up for being cruel?! Smacks of hypocrisy to me. The folks in Westminster have unreasonable expectations on our troops imo, to be ruthless enough to pull the trigger on someone & be controlled & compassionate just after the gunfight when their life was almost taken from them & they have adrenalin rushing. And if you think this sort of thing didn't happen in every other war in the history of war, you're kidding yourself. The travel of information is just much better now & these things end up on the front pages where they wouldn't have previously.