Notices
 

  

User Tag List

Thread: V6 TDI Swirl Control

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 43
  1. V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Norwich
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Hi Guys and Gals,
    Picked up an '08 Treg last month and all was going well, including a visit to Cornwall with kids and dog, but last week the Engine Management light came on the dash.

    A friend has a stand alone scanner, and the car was reporting:
    P2008 Intake Manifold Runner Control Circuit Open, Bank 1.

    A bit of research ensued and showed that this related to air charge control, which pointed to the swirl flaps. Sure enough, bank 1 connecting rod between motor and flaps had come loose at the bottom joint. VW Norwich are saying upper manifold complete, 491 + VAT for the part!!!!

    Surely there must be a cheaper, DIY alternative to this? Has anyone found one, before I pull it apart and attempt repair?

    Update
    It looks as though you can buy ball and socket joints and threaded rod through RS Componants and other outlets.
    If i do this and effect a repair, will the stepper motors need resetting via VAG Com or similar, or will the ECU calculate the motor position from the flap position?

    Any help gratefully received.
    Last edited by Phil A; 24-08-2011 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Update
     
    0 0 0
     

  2. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Have you fixed it ? if not could they be gotten rid of altogether
     
    0 0 0
     

  3. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Posts
    33,422
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    359 Post(s)
    Nope, no alternative to a new part and the part they have recommended will normally not cure it, the complete manifold will be required. I cant give you the price as I am not at work and I could do with your engine code as well.
    Dark was that day when Diesel conceived his grim engine that begot you, vile invention, more vicious, more criminal than the camera even, metallic monstrosity, bale and bane of our culture, chief woe of our Commonweal. How dare the Law prohibit hashish and heroin yet license your use, who inflate all weak inferior egos? Their addicts only do harm to their own lives: you poison the lungs of the innocent, your din dithers the peaceful, and on choked roads hundreds must daily die by chance-medley. Nimble technicians, surely you should hang your heads in shame. Your wit works mighty wonders, has landed men on the Moon, replaced brains by computers, and can smithy a "smart" bomb. It is a crying scandal that you cannot take the time or be bothered to build us, what sanity knows we need, an odorless and noiseless staid little electric brougham.

    W.H. Auden (1907-1973), A Curse:
     
    0 0 0
     

  4. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Norwich
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    I've now made a prototype control rod to replace the existing one with the worn end, when I get around to fitting it, I'll post more info with pictures etc and let you know if it works.

    So far as I'm aware, you can't remove this cicuit completely, as the ECU will always be looking for feedback regarding the position of the flaps, and will flag an alarm if it doesn't get it.

    I'll keep you posted.
     
    0 0 0
     

  5. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    st pierre, France
    Posts
    165
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    I look forward to seeing the DIY fix. Crasher is simply incorrect to say you must buy the whole manifold. Unless you go to Audi of course... There is NO sensors within the manifold. Assuming the manifold has it's normal range of movement then the only thing that the ECU checks is the start and stop position as per the linkage. If (once) the rod end bearing (crappy plastic snap fit) wears the tolerance goes out of spec and you get a MIL. I repaired mine with a used motor and rod from ebay.de. I used just the rod and it's worked fine for nearly a year.. But I knew it wouldn't last forever and the errors are starting to show their head again.

    I saw a quick and easy DIY fix on a Norwegian site which involves adding adhesive aluminium tape to the worn rod end opening to take up the slack... I just did it like 1 hour ago. The motor immediately referenced and MIL goes out.

    On a German forum they were cutting the old tie rod and making it adjustable. Like this one : http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rod-end-bearings/1988973/ but that would mean lifting off the motor and the manifold to have them machined to accept the new tie rod. It would last forever though.

    I am now looking to see if VDO sell the tie rod separately. Or any VDO motor vendor. This sort of stuff is usually available in the US. Might be worth looking up VW spares over the pond


    Even better would be to replace the crappy plastic one with a proper I think it is nothing short of profiteering that Audi and others want to change the whole thing for a small fortune for want of a 5 euro tie rod.
     
    0 0 0
     

  6. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    st pierre, France
    Posts
    165
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Forgot to say.. the tolerance is 2%... If someone had the tooling to set up the motor (referencing) / or some way to make the ECU expect 10% tolerance then I think you would never get a MIL in the lifetime of the motor.

    That must be do-able, and it would have approx zero effect on performance.

    As I said elsewhere on the forms. I'd simply disable them (open) if I could remove the MIL or fool the ECU to think they were there

    All the BMW guys throw the stupid flaps in the bin (mostly cos theirs were falling into the engine )
     
    0 0 0
     

  7. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Nottingham, England
    Posts
    33,422
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    359 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wjam View Post
    Crasher is simply incorrect to say you must buy the whole manifold.
    Unless you want to spend time bodging it with aluminium tape or making up your own linkage then there is no alternative to replacing the lower section of the manifold.
    Dark was that day when Diesel conceived his grim engine that begot you, vile invention, more vicious, more criminal than the camera even, metallic monstrosity, bale and bane of our culture, chief woe of our Commonweal. How dare the Law prohibit hashish and heroin yet license your use, who inflate all weak inferior egos? Their addicts only do harm to their own lives: you poison the lungs of the innocent, your din dithers the peaceful, and on choked roads hundreds must daily die by chance-medley. Nimble technicians, surely you should hang your heads in shame. Your wit works mighty wonders, has landed men on the Moon, replaced brains by computers, and can smithy a "smart" bomb. It is a crying scandal that you cannot take the time or be bothered to build us, what sanity knows we need, an odorless and noiseless staid little electric brougham.

    W.H. Auden (1907-1973), A Curse:
     
    1 0 0
     

  8. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    knee deep in clunge
    Posts
    6,169
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    13 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wjam View Post
    Forgot to say.. the tolerance is 2%... If someone had the tooling to set up the motor (referencing) / or some way to make the ECU expect 10% tolerance then I think you would never get a MIL in the lifetime of the motor.

    That must be do-able, and it would have approx zero effect on performance.

    As I said elsewhere on the forms. I'd simply disable them (open) if I could remove the MIL or fool the ECU to think they were there

    All the BMW guys throw the stupid flaps in the bin (mostly cos theirs were falling into the engine )
    i have the tool and the software to reset but often the manifold is required complete
     
    0 0 0
     

  9. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    st pierre, France
    Posts
    165
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    I'm saying it is a disgrace to have a 900 euro part (my quote) only available when everyone knows the linkage is the problem , which should cost a fiver. i'd even pay 20..

    By the way, My bodge worked for a year. My next "bodge" will fix it. That will be remove completely or make an adjustable linkage.
     
    0 0 0
     

  10. Re: V6 TDI Swirl Control 
    #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Norwich
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    0 Post(s)
    Finally got around to fixing the problem.
    I'd tried model shops to get replacement ball and socket joints, but the lower one on the flaps control cam is an odd size, 6.6mm, so decided to go the RS route. Purchased M6 Ball and socket joint for the top (Motor) end (RS 689401), and M5 for the bottom end (RS 689394), and made up a replacement control rod from a length of 6mm steel rod.

    Using a small bending machine I had, I put a 20mm Offset in the rod, threaded both ends M6, then filed one end down again (the thread acted as a guide), and re-cut it with M5.

    From measuring the existing control rod, the length between centres was 99mm, so the ball and socket joints were screwed on to replicate this measurement.Control Rod Production.jpgReplacement Control Rod.jpg

    As can be seen, the ball is missing from the M6 end, as this is 10mm diameter, and snaps straight on to the motor, and is retained by the safety locking pin.

    Next, the offending Inlet manifold top half had to be removed.

    After removing the engine cover, the Air Charge ducting was removed by unscrewing the 13xTx30 machine screws (two different lengths) and the 5mm Allen screw securing the throttle body to allow movement, and carefully manoeuvering it out and away.
    Airduct 1.jpg

    Next the wiring harness running across the manifolds was moved out of the way, by cutting the tie wraps and lifting the plastic support away, and the 3xTx30 machine screws removed so the the stepper motor could be unplugged, and lifted off the manifold.

    The fuel lines from the HP pump to the left bank accumulator, and connecting pipe to the right bank accumulator were also removed to a safe, clean place, and small bags with bands placed over the stubs to prevent ingress of dirt, which would invariably mess badly with the injectors!!

    The 8x5mm Allen screws can then be removed, and with a bit of fiddling, the plastic manifold top can be carefully pried and removed from the alloy half of the manifold.

    Now the offending control cam, with the 6.6mm ball can be seen, and by removing the metal circlip, can be withdrawn from the housing (note its orientation before doing so).
    Cam Removed.jpg

    I then cut off the ball from the cam, filed it flat and drilled a 4mm hole, tapped it M5 and screwed in the metal ball from the M5 ball and socket joint.

    I then temporarily fitted the motor to the housing, to ensure correct and inimpeded movement, then removed the motor again as this is required to re-install the housing to the manifold.
    Rod Fitted.jpg

    Replacement was then simply a reversal of the stripdown procedure, ensuring that all mating surfaces were clean before reassembly.

    Once the manifold top half was bolted down, the stepper motor was replaced, and the new connecting rod ball joint snapped in place, and the securing pin restored.
    The fuel lines were replaced, ensuring no dirt got in, and the Air Charge ducting replaced, again ensuring mating surfaces were clean, and the wiring loom re-tie wrapped, and any multi-plugs removed were replaced.

    Then came the moment of truth!! After a bit of prolonged cranking (fuel charging presumably) the motor started, and by watching the control rods, the stepper motors were doing their thing, closing the flaps when at idle, opening as revs increased.

    The ECU warning light (MIL) didn't go out on its own, and after running the car around for a few days, I went back out to my mates garage and we reset it via his scanner.

    The car has now been run around for another week or so, with no reccurance of the problem so hopefully its fixed!!

    Sorry for the long response, I wanted to make you aware that you seemingly DONT need to spend 500+ on parts, provided you have some workshop tools and a bit of engineering know-how. This procedure wasn't hard, and probably took about 2 hours.
    Incidentally, I did have a look at Bank 2, as I thought this would also be worn, but as the motor works to 'pull' the control rod when closing the flaps, the movement does not wear the joints to the same degree.

    I have had to limit pictures, due to posting rules, but if anyone wants any more detailed info, let me know and i'll try to help.

    Cheers,

    Phil
     
    9 4 0
     

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Swirl flaps - are they worth it?
    By TheMatador in forum 3.0TDi - Engine
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 24-02-2017, 11:56 AM
  2. swirl flaps
    By kalem4 in forum Audi A3 - 8P - 2004 - 2012
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-08-2011, 09:07 PM
  3. Swirl Mark Removal !!!
    By belfastmark in forum General Detailing/Cleaning Questions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-03-2011, 05:59 AM
  4. How To Swirl Marks
    By belfastmark in forum General Detailing/Cleaning Questions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 13-06-2010, 08:54 PM
  5. swirl marks
    By gixxerk4600 in forum General Detailing/Cleaning Questions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25-09-2008, 12:55 PM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  




  


Disclaimer: VW Audi Forum is an "independant enthusiast website", administered in line with guidelines supplied by VAG in the UK, and is in no way related to any of the Worldwide Volkswagen,Audi,Seat,Skoda,Bentley,Bugatti,Porsche or Lamborghini group of Companies. For official up to date information on any of there vehicles, please visit the official websites. Any comments made throughout this website, are the views of the respective poster, and in no way represent the views of the VW Audi Forum Administration, or the worldwide Volkswagen & Audi Group of companies.


VW Audi Forum do not vet and are not responsible for any information which is posted in this forum. All content is viewed and used by you at your own risk and we do not warrant the accuracy or reliability of any of the information.


Copyright: Certain "words", "phrases" and "Images" used on this website by the Administration are "Copyright" of Volkswagen GB, Volkswagen AG (Germany), Audi GB, Audi AG (Germany), Volkswagen Motorsport GB, Volkswagen Motorsport AG (Germany), Audi Motorsport AG (Germany), Volkswagen Racing GB, Bentley, Bugatti, Porsche and Lamborghini. No image can be replicated by anyone WITHOUT the relevant Companies written permission.


All trademarks and copyrights remain property of their respective owners.

No part of the VW Audi Forum website or forum may be reproduced without written permission from the site administration


PLEASE NOTE - PERSONAL ABUSE, ABUSE AGAINST THIS OR ANY OTHER WEBSITE OR ANY COMPANY WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. OFFENDERS WILL BE MODERATED OR EVEN BANNED.


This website and forum are best viewed at a minimum resolution of 1024 by 768.



  



- VW AUDI Forum - The #1 Volkswagen (VW) Group Forum - Volkswagen (VW) - Audi - Seat - Skoda - Bentley - Bugatti - Lamborghini - Porsche - VW Audi Forum -


- www.vwaudiforum.co.uk - www.vwaudiforum.co.uk -