PDA

View Full Version : Conned. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!



jasear
04-05-2007, 10:53 AM
:zx11: :zx11: Im so angry right now I cannot describe it. I bought a Passat TDI which was advertised in the papers.

It seemed like a good deal but was about 120 miles away from where I lived. After losing out on numerous cars before, due to not acting quick I thought I will not miss out on this one!

Anyway, I phone the guy and asked him some basic questions about the car. He tells me the mileage is 55,000 (there was no mention of it in the ad) backed with full service history. All sounds good. I go to this guys place first thing in the morning as he tells me several people have tried to pay him a deposit over the phone to secure the car.

I reach there and he tells me he is at work so will be available in an hours time. After an hour I go down his place and view the car. I am shocked to see 120k on the clock. Upon asking him about the service history he tells me there is none.:zx11: I drive the car and it drives perfect. I ask him is it HPI clear and he informs me it is. Anyway I get the price down as much as I can and buy the car (dunno why I just didnt walk away I want to beat the hell out of myself for that).

He didnt even have a V5 just gave me the new keepers part. Anyway, I drive the car 120 miles and I cant really complain about anything.

Next day I start the car up and notice the gear shift from 1st to second, 2nd to 1st and reverse are jerky but are fine when warm (explains why he couldnt see me straight away and only an hour later because he was probably warming the car up so that I dont notice this problem).

To top it all off today I recieved the new V5 with my name on it and to my shock and horror I find in the special notes that the car had been inspected after being repaired from substantial damage in 2005.

The guy has sold me lie after lie. I am just wondering is there anything I can do about this legally? Or am I just now stuck with this problem.

I know I have been absolutely stupid but for sure I will NEVER EVER make this mistake again. More than the loss of money I consider it important that this guy doesnt get away with this and others like me dont find themselves in this situation.

Sam
04-05-2007, 11:32 AM
Did you get a receipt?

Did the receipt say "sold as seen" anywhere on it?

Hindsight is wonderful but yes, you should have walked away :(

topgazza
04-05-2007, 11:42 AM
Really sorry to hear of this sort of thing.

Golfing partner of mine is a solicitor and we have discussed this type of issue many times over a putt.

First advice is to see a solicitor...most will give you a free consulation.

The only tips I can make based on the above is it may well boil down to what was written down in the ad and the receipt. If he has mislead you in any way you may have a case for redress. But of course you had the option to walk away when he told you there was no service history, despite the ad, so that would have been your informed decsion to make. It would be different if you had discovered that after you'd bought the car. You might suggest that he was going to forward the service history on and hasn't done so and he now claims there is none. So it depends on how you word your case and the "his word against yours" can work both ways.

He would claim that he informed you of the cars record verbally. The thing is however that you never know if there is a flaw in his defence until you get advice. But again think about how you word this to the solicitor. The mileage thing supports the "idea" that he is dodgy so by saying that you now discover there is no service history, I would have thought, gives you something to latch onto. The fact that he didn't declare the car had been a serious accident repair is also illegal as there is a duty to declare any information that may be relevant to a buyer. You can't sell something with a proven known fault or issue and NOT tell the buyer. The onus is on the sellar to inform, not the buyer to ask, unless he states its "sold as seen" , you just can't ...even in a private sale. So by hiding those facts I believe he has commited an offence and you could sue through the small claims court..cheaper or your solicitor.and if he doesn't pay the court will get the baliffs in...unless he's a real ducker and diver. Its not that scary in reality..a piece of cake as the process is very user friendly.

You could also try calling him and asking for your money back. Awkward I know but if you do just stay calm and don't get involved in any discussion. Just state the facts, politely ask for your money back and if he refuses just say that you will be in touch in writing.

Bottom line...see a solicitor...good luck and tell us how you get on


Oh, I would get the car thoroughly checked out..I know that will cost...but you never know it might be worth while getting it fixed..it might not be a great deal...I assume it has an MOT but there might be some mechanical, dangerous problem which you would want to know but also may help your case.

jasear
04-05-2007, 03:02 PM
Thanks for your advice guys. I dont think the Service history or the mileage issue is my strong points in this case but (as you have pointed out) it could be used to show this guy has a habit of misleading.

However, I can probably get hold of the ad where he did not mention at all that the car was a write off in the past. Surely this is against the law? He also has no excuses such as ignorance e.t.c. because it clearly states on the V5 that it has been repaired in the past.

The price I paid for it also proves that I had no idea it was an x-writeoff as no one would pay that much for it.

He clearly also stated that it was HPI clear when I asked him specifically. I know that is something that could come down to his word against mine.

Anyway, Im going to contact him first and see how he responds and then take it further as you sugges topgazza.

Will keep you guys updated.

topgazza
04-05-2007, 03:09 PM
The service history is a material part of your claim I would have thought as he has stated in his ad that he had this ? As I said , all you have to do is say he was going to forward it on...

not declaring something depends on what it is..in this case I would have thought that not declaring it had been an insurance write off (ish) is pretty significant and to support this it is worth getting that check done. Still, eac case is diffrent and that solictitor is best placed.

minty0_10
04-05-2007, 05:53 PM
not being funny mate dont wast any more money if you bought the car without checking it you have learned a valuable lesson.
its just a case of buyer beware.

there was a program on tv last year about it called watchdog a chap who bought a car without knowing it was a right off called them in.
in the end it came down to what they called buyer beware and there was nothing they could do about it.

and that car was bought from a garage forecourt.

Sam
04-05-2007, 06:28 PM
^ Hence my request for more information on the receipt.

Unless it says "SOLD AS SEEN" you have comeback.

Caveat Emptor

topgazza
04-05-2007, 07:15 PM
Yup depends on the ad and what can be demonstrated from the transaction. Just spoke to my golfing buddy and he confirms that proving someone has deliberately withheld pertinent information is tricky but if proven is conclusive. If this crook knew the car was a write off, had been repaired and failed to disclose this as jasear only found after the event then our man has a good case.

Like all solicitors he did say that each case depends on the actual evidence. Cast iron cases can collapse from the simplest of reasons and vice versa.

Again he said to see a solicitor and get the car checked out. The more evidence jasear can find to support the claim the better and you never know...the car might not be that bad...being optimistic.

Interestingly the caveat emptor thing is valid of course but if contradicted by statements in the ad "has full service history" but it doesn't and you find out after nudge nudge...thats a whole different case and nullifies that statement.

jasear
04-05-2007, 08:10 PM
It wasnt sold to me as "sold as seen". And Ive just worked out something very interesting.

The car had a VIC done on it on the 5.1.05. The guy who I bought it from bought the car on the 24.12.2004.

Which proves that this guy actually bought it as a salvage, repaired it and now without mentioning it in the ad, lieng to me when I asked him about it he sold it to me. Surely that just cannot be right? Atleast I have (now) hard evidence that he knew it was a write off and repaired. Other than this I have reason to believe that he has used the car as a Taxi. Again something I also asked him about and he said it hadnt. The reason I am suspicious now is that I have noticed two screw marks on the right hand side of the rear bumper trim (the black bit). Something I overlooked at the time.

The car itself is fine. I wouldnt be able to tell if its a x - write off or not by looking at it or driving it. But the reason I am angry is that once a car goes onto the HPI register its value drops by 40% (I read it somewhere dont remember where) so I have ended up paying a lot more than I should have and if I now sell it I am not going to get anywhere near the price I paid unless I conn someone.

I know Ive been very stupid in this whole matter. When I think about it now I just wonder how on earth I fell for it and why I didnt just walk away. But something needs to be done about this guy.

I think at the very least Ill get some advice from a solicitor.

topgazza
04-05-2007, 08:58 PM
Good man...let us know

snapdragon
04-05-2007, 09:31 PM
You should also check it very carefully to make sure it isn't a stolen ringer running around on the identity of the salvage car.

devonutopia
04-05-2007, 11:11 PM
It's a legal requirement to disclose a car has been written off, IF ASKED, by the buyer. However, you could come unstuck if the car is "sold as seen" on the receipt, and you don't ask the buyer about it's history, or pay for a car history check.

You should have comeback in this case as the car was misrepresented to you at the point of sale, so under law of tort, I believe you have a case.

Fettler
04-05-2007, 11:24 PM
I really do feel for you dude, it sometimes is easy to be blinded by "a Fantastic deal" and you dont want to loose out.
Hind sight is easy for anyone
But hey ho onwards and upwards.
Things will get better
Hopefully all will be well and you will get some pleasure from this bad experience:beerchug:

southwest
05-05-2007, 09:46 AM
Was the guy who sold it "trade" if so you do have redress, also check to see if he has advertised previously and often as that will make him small trader in the eyes of the paper advertising him.

Have you contacted him and told him thet you no longer want the car? and why.

minty0_10
05-05-2007, 09:58 AM
be good if you do get your cash back or some of it but.....
look at it from the sellers point of view he,s sold cat c (vic check hence cat c) car for full market value knowing full well it had been written off. if he,s that type of man that would do that knowing the history of the car, i cant see him handing back the cash.

just out of interest what year is the car and what you pay for it?
if your planing on keeping the car for a number of years it may not be that bad. when you plan on selling it.

just being realistic you have to look at it from all points

snapdragon
05-05-2007, 11:23 AM
I have heard it frequently said that there is no such thing as sold as seen, because your statutory EU citizen rights would be affected....

This is all I could find on google...

Sold as Seen....or is it ? Not Legal....Keep this in Mind !
Just thought I would bring this to your attention if you are selling items. Sold as Seen can be illegal and where it is not, it ONLY refers to what you can see. The law has changed with very little publicity.

All to often people think they are covered when they sell an item and add the wording Sold as Seen. Its not worth the paper its not worth the paper its written on.

Whilst the phrase “sold as seen” is often referred to in the context of car dealers, it can be used in any situation where goods are sold. At this point, it should be noted that the rights detailed in this article only relate to transactions between buyers who are “Consumers” and sellers which are “Businesses”. The rights do not apply to transactions between Businesses – we shall leave that for another day…

When dealing with, or as, a consumer, the phrase “sold as seen” is effectively meaningless. The term “sold as seen” can only be applied in a reasonable manner and can only apply to the way the goods look: something that can easily be seen on a visual inspection. If one takes the example of a car, advertised for sale as “sold as seen”, the exclusion on liability can only apply to external features, such as scratched or damaged bodywork. It is not reasonable to expect a faulty exhaust or clutch to be picked up on the basis of a visual examination.

The problem for sellers, and the benefit for buyers, is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). The Sale of Goods Act 1979 provides buyers with various rights, which state that the goods must be:

• as described
• fit for their purpose
• of satisfactory quality

When a consumer buys from a business their legal rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 cannot be taken away or reduced. This is what the phrase “sold as seen” seeks to do.

Any warranty or guarantee can only be given in addition to their legal rights, not instead of them.

Furthermore, using the term ‘sold as seen’ in these circumstances may also be a criminal offence under the Consumer Transactions (Restrictions on Statements) Order. It could be seen as an attempt to restrict a consumer’s legal rights. If a business wishes to use any disclaimers, either in contracts or in signs on their premises, it is best to seek legal advice or speak to trading standards first.

Other legislation which affects businesses dealing with consumers includes:

Business Names Act - If you do not trade under your own name but as for example, "Anytown Cars" you must display clearly your name and address where legal documents could be sent to you. There are additional requirements if it is a limited company.

Consumer Protection Act - Take great care that everything you sell is safe. Be particularly careful with toys, electrical goods, upholstered furniture and clothing.

Where you show a price for goods, it is an offence to charge a buyer more. It is also illegal to mislead buyers in other ways about the price of goods, for example by using price comparisons or sale signs when the higher price you quote in comparisons is unfair or meaningless.

Fair Trading Act - It is an offence to display any sign which tries to limit a buyer s rights. Do not use signs like No Refunds or Sold as Seen . As well as being illegal, these signs do not, in fact, limit buyers rights at all.

Price Marking Order - Traders must show a price in writing for all goods offered for sale. This can be attached to the goods, or be placed adjacent to them.

Trade Descriptions Act - Goods must not be mis-described. Before selling recorded or branded items such as cassettes, video films or t-shirts, satisfy yourself that they are not counterfeit because heavy penalties can be imposed on anyone who breaches copyright by selling fakes.

Sale and Supply of Goods Act - If you sell something, whether new or second-hand, it should be of satisfactory quality and fit for its ordinary everyday purpose. It should also be as you describe it.

Keith of Pendragon

Sam
05-05-2007, 01:14 PM
It wasnt sold to me as "sold as seen".

<snip>

I think at the very least Ill get some advice from a solicitor.

The first point means you may have a case, don't give up.

The second idea is a good one, but first go to your local citizens advice bureau. Working where I do it's my job to rubbish these guys but the advice is free and they are fully qualified.

If you already have a solicitor then by all means give them a ring, but the CAB is always the best starting point.

topgazza
05-05-2007, 03:08 PM
I would only slightly disagree with that. Not demeaning CAB in any way and the CAB are very good in my experience at giving basic advice but will give advice which usually ends with "see a solicitor". If its cut and dried it will be "make a county court claim". From what I've been told he has a pretty solid case that has some degree of complexity for at least a professional assessment from a solicitor. Again, most will give a free consultation but even if they charge the usual &#163;35-50 for a first visit it will save time and stress to just cut to the chase.

Depending on this toerags dodgyness I reckon he has a really good case but extracting money is sometime the problem. It might scare this guy, especially if he has a track record and is an "illegal" dealer, to want to keep it quiet and just cough up.

Just spoke to my lovely wife who was a advertising manager for a newspaper group and she thinks, yes its true she sometimes does..., that if the car is substantially different from the ad the newspaper may have some liability as well...particularly if the guy turns out to be a closet dealer posing as private...but it really gets complex then. Isn't the law wonderful....

southwest
05-05-2007, 06:52 PM
What swear filter?....................sorry got told off for last post.......:o

Was it a private ad or trade??

guyg
06-05-2007, 01:13 PM
Anyway, Im going to contact him first and see how he responds and then take it further as you sugges topgazza.

Will keep you guys updated.

Unless I've missed it, you haven't been back to the guy you bought the car from.

I think you need to be clear on what you want to achieve - establish what you yourself would ideally like to be done, and then what the minimum amount of redress acceptable would be as a fall back position.

My understanding in any dispute matter is you have to give the offending party an opportunity to put matters right, and this means you have to make him aware of what the problems are and what you expect to be done about it. [This could be a refund, half your wedge back, an new gearbox or whatever].

You [understandably] probably don't want anything more to do with him, but you don't want to give him any additional leverage to wriggle out any liability by not playing by the rules...

My experience of the CAB is it depends on who the volunteer is you're talking to, if it's a retired Barrister then great, but if it's a well meaning lady from the knitting circle who had to read from the supporting pamphets - you're probably better off getting a free consultation with a solicitor, even though you know it's a loss leader.

Good luck, I hope you fry the [ommitited in advance in anticipation of the swear filter].

Cheers

Guy

gramey
06-05-2007, 10:46 PM
It's a legal requirement to disclose a car has been written off, IF ASKED, by the buyer. However, you could come unstuck if the car is "sold as seen" on the receipt, and you don't ask the buyer about it's history, or pay for a car history check.

You should have comeback in this case as the car was misrepresented to you at the point of sale, so under law of tort, I believe you have a case.

There in lies the crux of the matter as far as the vehicle being a write off is concerned, if you don't ask, he doesn't have to tell you. If the question of whether or not the car was HPI clear if it bothered you that much why didn't you get it checked yourself? If your going to spend a reasonable amount on a car don't be so tight over £40.00 for an HPI check, it would have stopped you throwing money away on this car.
I can't believe you chose to ignore all the warning signs (meet me somewhere else, no V5, 65 000 more miles, no history, no verified HPI check, car already warm, how much more warning do want?) and still went ahead and bought this car. He may be unscrupulous but without buyers like yourself he wouldn't be selling cars would he?

RickT
06-05-2007, 11:44 PM
Sorry to hear about this.. i have posted on this same subject many times before now...

to cut a long story short as you have already had a lot of input.. sorry to say but the seller in "theory" has done nothing wrong.. It is the purchasers responsibility to check the cars history prioir to purchase. A basic HPI cost £9.99 which is a basic report which confirms the VIN to the reg plate, history regarding any insurance write off's and or on the regisiter as stolen.

I know its too late saying the above now.

I think you have 2 options..

1 - Check the car for the repairs carried out to ensure its safe.. (more than likley it will be ok to a certain degree.. not as stong as an orginal) then decide to take it as experiance and decide to keep the car until it goes bang.. ie driving it into the ground.

2 - attmept to cut your losses and sell it..... sell it on ebay explaining the sitution, trade it in for another car or sell it at auction.

As said above.. sorry to hear about whats happended but in regards to courts/ the law i dont think you will get anywhere as this guy can alway turn round to you and say he told you all this when selling the car.

RickT

2-

jasear
07-05-2007, 03:46 AM
Thanks for all your responses guys. Sorry Ive been away. In response to your questions.

The car is a 2000 W Reg Passat PD TDI SE. The seller claimed to be a private seller but I wouldnt be suprised if he was an undisclosed trader posing to be a private seller.

I know that its not the seller's responsibility to tell me that the Car is not HPI clear but when asked the law requires him to give an honest answer which he did not. Unfortunately this is something that was verbal (hence my word against him if he turns around and denies it) and what I have learnt from this experience is that (if I dont want to get the HPI done myself) I should have got him to write that on the reciept.

This is a seperate issue but I dont agree with the law that says you dont have to tell the seller if the car is on the HPI register. Why is it not obligatory to disclose a detail of the car that could reduce its market value by almost 50%? I know the counter argument is that you do an HPI check. But surely this system is:

A> Ripping people off of money for information that should be freely available,
B> Allowing conmen to (legally) rip people off and making a big business out of it.

I am thinking first to contact a solicitor to get some advice. In my mind I am thinking of offering the seller the following:

1> Refund me 40% of the money I paid for the car.
2> Take the car back, give me my money back + my travel expenses.

I can keep the car but my main worry is the auto box. I dont know if its on a gradual decline. Another option I have is to sell the car without telling the seller its on the HPI register. The law basically allows me to con other unsuspecting buyers. However, I just dont think I am capable of doing that.

topgazza
07-05-2007, 03:56 PM
...and the law, in practice, does not allow you to knowingly do that.....which obviously applies to the seller of your car. But its a part of the law that is flawed.

It is the SELLERS responsibility to declare any fault that he is aware of, key phrase here "aware of"" that may materially affect the buyers decision to buy or his safety depending on how the car is described in the ad. Verbally is tricky unless witnesses are present. Of course the buyer has a duty to show common sense and due diligence when buying and that balance between the seller and the buyer is a difficult one and depends on each individual case. The court may decide you were too "negligent" in buying in the circumstances you describe even though it may think the seller is a crook.

It is not within the law for a private seller to deliberately hide such things and the assumption that a buyer has "to ask" is a completely false one. This is an important fact considering the "hidden" nature of a lot of possible faults something like a car could have. So the law puts a balanced onus on both parties to show good faith and honesty with the seller being duty bound to declare any serious defects that may not be clear on a test drive or to the eye, again that he is aware of. However it is a notoriously difficult area to get redress and in many cases to prove that the fault was there when the car was purchased. The "caveat emptor" rule does not seem to apply here nor does the "sold as seen".

It may well boil down to winning the arguement but the hassle in getting money back, may be a percentage to blame on jasear here, so the battle may be won but the war is just not worth it. Solicitor can advise and I think jasear's suggestion of asking for some money back is a sensible one that shows willing to compromise. Still, this is all speculation and anecdotal....even my golfing buddy only offered broad advice.....

minty0_10
07-05-2007, 04:02 PM
i cant see this ending happily but but there may be a bit of a silver lining the fault you said about the box being nochy seeing as it a auto you may find a oil and filter change on the box may help things

topgazza
07-05-2007, 04:07 PM
Which really is worth checking out. If the car is in otherwise good condition...and is not a cut and shut..which really would make our seller a crook but jasear out of pocket so lets hope not...then he would have a good car that should last for years.

good point minty

gramey
07-05-2007, 08:30 PM
togazza, I don't know where your solicitor friend gets his information from,and I could well be wrong here, but this is what it says on www.mycarcheck.com (http://www.mycarcheck.com)
If a vehicle is recorded as a total insurance write off, also known as a total loss, the private buyer has several problems: it may be unsafe and not repaired to an acceptable standard; the value will drop a considerable amount depending on the category the insurance company have placed it in. A motor dealer does not have to divulge to a prospective buyer if a vehicle has been "written off" or not, unless he is specifically asked the question. It is the SELLERS responsibility to declare any fault that he is aware of, key phrase here "aware of"" that may materially affect the buyers decision to buy or his safety depending on how the car is described in the ad.
This tallies with my understanding of the law with regard to a sellers requirement of a car previously being an insurance write off. Prior to the V.I.C. checks being introduced, which if this car has passed should rule out it being cloned, I used to do the old V.23 (notification of a potential total loss vehicle) checks for the police. The onus is on the buyer to ask the specific question of the seller if the vehicle has ever been subject of an insurance write off.

It is the SELLERS responsibility to declare any fault that he is aware of, key phrase here "aware of"" that may materially affect the buyers decision to buy or his safety depending on how the car is described in the ad.

The fact that the vehicle has been subject to an insurance write off does not constitute a fault per se if the vehicle has subsequently been repaired to an acceptable standard.

jasear
07-05-2007, 09:13 PM
togazza, I don't know where your solicitor friend gets his information from,and I could well be wrong here, but this is what it says on www.mycarcheck.com (http://www.mycarcheck.com)
If a vehicle is recorded as a total insurance write off, also known as a total loss, the private buyer has several problems: it may be unsafe and not repaired to an acceptable standard; the value will drop a considerable amount depending on the category the insurance company have placed it in. A motor dealer does not have to divulge to a prospective buyer if a vehicle has been "written off" or not, unless he is specifically asked the question. It is the SELLERS responsibility to declare any fault that he is aware of, key phrase here "aware of"" that may materially affect the buyers decision to buy or his safety depending on how the car is described in the ad.
This tallies with my understanding of the law with regard to a sellers requirement of a car previously being an insurance write off. Prior to the V.I.C. checks being introduced, which if this car has passed should rule out it being cloned, I used to do the old V.23 (notification of a potential total loss vehicle) checks for the police. The onus is on the buyer to ask the specific question of the seller if the vehicle has ever been subject of an insurance write off.

It is the SELLERS responsibility to declare any fault that he is aware of, key phrase here "aware of"" that may materially affect the buyers decision to buy or his safety depending on how the car is described in the ad.

The fact that the vehicle has been subject to an insurance write off does not constitute a fault per se if the vehicle has subsequently been repaired to an acceptable standard.

But the point being made is, that he was asked and he turned around and lied about it being HPI clear. He knew it was a write off because he bought it in december 2004, the VIC was done in Jan 2005. That proves he knew it was a write off and he failed to disclose that to me (even when I asked him) or made a mention of it in his ad.

Tell me something. If I now sold this car to someone without telling them that it is not HPI clear would that be right? I am sure most people would consider that to be wrong. Why then does the law say its ok to do that?

Ill tell you why. So that RAC, AA and all these various car check companies can carry on making millions for selling information. Which should be free. The information they sell they buy from the DVLA.

I really wonder how many lives are lost each year because someone bought a car that was not safe to drive. Its all well and good blaming the poor public for being tight and not wasting away another £20 - £50 to get a credit check. But the Government and the DVLA fully have this information available but want to make a multi million pound business out of it at the expense of some lives and the misery of millions.

Its scandulous.

minty0_10
07-05-2007, 09:32 PM
at the end of the day people are just going over old ground the chance of him getting is money back i would say are slim. if it was a dealer he bought it from them maybe he would have a chance. if he desides to take the seller to court its only going to cost him more cash in the long run. if it was me i,d be thinking what to do with the car, like he said the repairs are good enough that he did not notice the chance of the car being rung or clonded are slim as it would not have past the vic check.
also like somone alse said he should have hpi,d it there a number of sites on line from only £10 on line.

maybe usefull to others if you want a quick hpi check texe the reg number of the car to 83600 only costs £3 you get 2 messages back giving you all the info you need. yes it works as ive used it a few times

gramey
07-05-2007, 09:59 PM
jasear, If you sold the car unless the buyer asks the same question, "Has the vehicle ever been subject of a write off/total loss", rather than a vague "Is it HPI clear?" (easily refuted with "I thought he asked is it HP clear?") then legally you've done nothing wrong. Most people would consider it wrong but unfortuantely there are unscrupulous sellers out there.
It may make you feel better to criticise all & sundry for not putting this information right under your nose free gratis but the bottoom line is the warning signs were there and you chose to ignore them. It may be a harsh lesson but you've got to decide whether to punt it on to some one else (they may have suspicions unless you can come up with a good reason for selling it so quickly?) or if the car is otherwise o.k. keep it.
You can speak to the seller, you never you might get lucky, but if he tells you to go forth & multiply you've then got to decide if it's worth taking further?

jasear
07-05-2007, 10:22 PM
Ok, it just gets from bad to worse. I just texted that number and it came back with the following:

Reg was Extensively damaged Categeory = C on 13/09/2004. Insurers decided not to repair it. FAILED VIC TEST ON 10-01-2005.

:zx11::zx11: On the V5. It says it had the VIC on that date. Didnt say whether it failed or passed. Whats all this suppose to mean? The car has been MOTD since. The car has got road tax e.t.c. Does this mean this car is not even legit? OMG what have I let myself into.

minty0_10
07-05-2007, 10:41 PM
ok firstly all cat c cars if they have been damaged will say (entensively damaged) even if it was light damage "example i once had a micra i bought cat c right off only needed a wing that was classed as entensively damaged on the logbook it also passed the vic check BEFORE i repaired it" as long as the car drives under its own power the it will pass the vic check just go,s to show how much of a scam that is.


2nd the dvla will not send out a new v5 logbook untill they have the letter from the vic office saying its passed.

if you now have the full logbook then the chance is the car is the originel.
unless the seller had the old v5 logbook himself.

anther thing which would explain the above is maybe the car was written off while he owned the car. a lot of the time the owner has the chance to buy the car back from the insurance company.

still strange through how it failed the vic check that could be a worry.

gramey
07-05-2007, 10:45 PM
jasear, Here's what it says on the DVLA website for VIC checks -

When an insurance company writes off a car, the registration document (V5 logbook) is surrendered to them and destroyed. The insurance company will then notify the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) that the vehicle has been written off. This notification will set a ‘VIC marker’ on the vehicle record on the DVLA database. If the vehicle is subsequently repaired with the intention of returning it to the road, the DVLA will not issue a new registration document or vehicle excise duty licence until the car passes a VIC. The VIC is designed to help confirm that the vehicle being returned to the road has been repaired following accident damage and has not been stolen.
The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) will carry out the VIC. This will involve comparing the vehicle presented to VOSA against the information held by DVLA, such as the vehicle identification number, make, model, colour and engine number. The VIC will also compare the record of previous accident damage with evidence of damage repair as well as checking other components to confirm the age and identity of the vehicle.

Do you know at which centre the VIC was carried out, if so contact them and ask if they can give you any further information. If not it may pay you to do a full HPI check on it as this will should give you which area of the car was damaged, what the mileage was etc. then you can look at the car and see if there are any signs of repair in the area indicated on the Cat C notification and whether the mileage tallies with that recorded at the time + an allowance for the interim period.

If you have any suspicions about the car check that the visible VIN in the lower left side of the screen matches to the stamped in VIN on the chassis (location should be in your handbook). Check that the visible VIN is not just a dymo type sticky label laid over the original. Also check round the area of the stamped in VIN for any visible signs of repair, i.e. rubbing or grinding marks below the surface of the paint, welding of the panel where the stamped in VIN is located or mastic missing from the joints of the same panel. If you get some acetone and gently rub over where the stamped in VIN is and it's been repaired or altered paint will come OFF, genuine factory applied paint is pretty resistant to acetone and won't usually come off.

If you think you've got a ringer go to the police.

minty0_10
07-05-2007, 10:57 PM
1 more point i had a audi a4 written off about 3 months ago i had not long bought the car when i was hit up the ***. anyway the insurance classed it as a cat c. i then bought the car on and sold it as a cat c savlage car my self. but at no point did the insurance company or the dvla ask be to send them the logbook.

anther tip is ring your local vw dealer ask them if they have any service history for the car. should all be on computer tell them whats happened and they may give you a copy of the invoices.(nissan did for me)
on these will be the last owners name and address you could maybe then contact them and see if they can shed some light on it. you may even find the the last owner who serviced it was the man you bought it off. (hence he bought it back as above)
there for meaning he had the v5 and did not give it to you.
if that makes sense

topgazza
07-05-2007, 11:00 PM
I think two things are being confused. I am only referring to the seller knowing there was a fault with the car and not declaring it. Not whether it was an insurance write off or not.

But this may all be immaterial. Get the AA to check the car over or even..gasp..a VW dealer. They can confirm the safety and the legit nature of the car.

minty0_10
07-05-2007, 11:07 PM
i was just saying try and trace the history of the car. if it has been repaired there will always be something that will tell you. look for the smallest of over spray, or have a look at your car under street lights say from a bedroom window, you should be able to spot diffrent shades where its been painted.
unless of corse its had a full respray

topgazza
07-05-2007, 11:12 PM
Oh for sure Minty...excellent idea. Interesting how a diffused light can show up diff paint jobs. Wonder if the insurance company...has a record of the damage as they should be on the docs somewhere ? If the VIC centre haven't got the details of the accident damage, which they should ?

Man, this gets confusing...

minty0_10
07-05-2007, 11:22 PM
when ive taken cars for vic checks in the past you have to fill a detailed form. saying what repairs you have done. theres also a drawing where you have to show what part of the car was damaged and you have to show bills for any new parts you have bought.

on saying that when you get to the vic office they have never asked me for the parts bill.

the vic check also takes less time than it takes to drink a cup of tea:aargh4: ive now learnt not to bother buying a cupa while i wait.

this must be getting on to one of the longest posts posted lol

jasear
07-05-2007, 11:48 PM
Minty, I had already chased up the Service History (before I knew it was a write off in the past) and VW had quite a lot. Upto 90,000. Believe it or not at one point it was owned by someone in the city I live in. My local VW had serviced it. I tried to get more details from them a while back but they said i need to bring the V5 in to them and they will give me more details. At the time I didnt have a V5 but I will try and go there tomorrow to trace as much as I can.

I can tell from the Bonnett that it had a lot of the damage. And I mean not just towards the front but in quite a few areas. Maybe Ill take some pictures tomorrow and post them. They are not that noticeable but you can see someone has done an OK job in trying to get those dents out.

I am really beginning to suspect this is a ringer. The VIN number is not in the normal place where it is suppose to be on a Passat. Ill take pictures of it tomorrow.

I am thinking, I should phone the DVLA tomorrow and try to find out if I can drive the car legally on the road?

I just sold my other car today so I need to start driving the Passat and Ill see if my insurance company insure me on this. Will they insure cars that have not passed their VIC? I am not sure.

If the DVLA tell me that the car never passed its VIC and it is not legal to drive it then surely I should be contacting the police? I am not sure what to do in that scenario. What do you guys think I should do? Should I be involving the police?

minty0_10
08-05-2007, 08:33 AM
1st there is a number you can ring to find out if the car needs a hpi check cant think of the number at the moment. you could try ringing your local vic office tell them your not sure if the car needs a vic check or not that should help you some of the way

2nd as for the car having a valid mot means nothing realy you can mot the car before its taken for a vic check.

funy if they have repaired the bonnet this would make me think the car had only light damage in the first place. if it was heavy damge it would be quicker and less work just to change it.

3rd if there car is a ringer there will be a chance of you losing the car and your money.
(same as if you buy a car thats still on finance the car belongs to the finance company not the owner on the v5)

however if the police do take the car they then have to prove that it is a stolen car. if they cannot then they should hand it back to you but it may then be placed on a q plate. i know this is what used to happen few years ago but things may have changed since then.

when or if you recive the new logbook from the dvla then i would say naff all myself that must mean that it has passed a vic check at some point.

do you have the address of the guy you bought the car from or know where he lives.

jasear
08-05-2007, 09:49 AM
Minty,

Ive already recieved the new log book. And I know the guys address. For the last few days I have been resisting the temptation of paying him a visit.:zx11:

On a side note. After searching through this forum I have come to the conclusion my tiptonic needs a fluid and filter change to get rid of that cold jerky gear shift problem. I dont want to go to the ******** as they will charge a lot. I have a local Indy close by, I might get a quote from him. I have seriously considered doing it myself but I am a bit unsure about it.

Has anyone here done this job themself? Or know of a indy / ******* that would do it for a reasonable price?

topgazza
08-05-2007, 11:25 AM
Being optimistic.... with the car having done so many miles and with some sort of service history the odds seem to favour it being OK...mechanically that is. In which case the story might end well with jasear at least having a decent car to drive....


Provided its not a ringer of course....which needs to be eliminated. Yep, gather your facts, VIC, dealer etc before deciding if

minty0_10
12-05-2007, 10:08 PM
just wondering whats the latest is on the car?

RickT
13-05-2007, 12:43 AM
yeah.. how you getting on with this one?

RicKT

southwest
13-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Have you actually contacted the guy and told him your problem??

If you hav'nt then
1/he doesnt know you have a problem or dispute.
2/ Has not been given the chance to put it right.

Communication is the key, I would'nt advise you to hold your breath waiting but he just might say , sorry I cant do anything or you might get a result maybe some cash back or whatever, But he probably doesnt read this forum so he wont know that your unhappy:zx11: with the deal.

Give the guy a go, worst case is he tells you to get lost, your no further back if he does but at least you'll know where you stand.

Ronin
19-05-2007, 08:30 AM
Unless it says "SOLD AS SEEN" you have comeback.

Caveat Emptor

Be aware... "Sold As Seen" makes no difference.

When I was a car trader many moons ago at the lower end of the food chain, (All cars ex-trade-ins under £1000), we had printed on our receipts "Sold As Seen Tried And Approved, With No Warranty Given Or Implied". We had 3 or 4 run-ins with Trading Standards and found that our legal position wasn't affected by that statement at all. The car still had to be in a condition "Fit for the purpose it was sold for". We only ever had one case where we had to make a refund and that was where we hadn't noticed a mileometer not working and the mileage was the same at the MOT 3 months before. We had quoted the mileage in the Advert.

In the case of a car being a repaired write off, if the buyer asks the question, then the answer must be honest. If he doesn't ask, then there is no legal requirement to tell him.

Caveat Emptor - "Let the buyer beware".
--
René

cairnsie13
22-05-2007, 04:29 PM
So have you been the see the guy or imformed him your unhappy yet?

madmonk
31-08-2007, 11:09 PM
:zx11: :zx11: Im so angry right now I cannot describe it. I bought a Passat TDI which was advertised in the papers.

It seemed like a good deal but was about 120 miles away from where I lived. After losing out on numerous cars before, due to not acting quick I thought I will not miss out on this one!

Anyway, I phone the guy and asked him some basic questions about the car. He tells me the mileage is 55,000 (there was no mention of it in the ad) backed with full service history. All sounds good. I go to this guys place first thing in the morning as he tells me several people have tried to pay him a deposit over the phone to secure the car.

I reach there and he tells me he is at work so will be available in an hours time. After an hour I go down his place and view the car. I am shocked to see 120k on the clock. Upon asking him about the service history he tells me there is none.:zx11: I drive the car and it drives perfect. I ask him is it HPI clear and he informs me it is. Anyway I get the price down as much as I can and buy the car (dunno why I just didnt walk away I want to beat the hell out of myself for that).

He didnt even have a V5 just gave me the new keepers part. Anyway, I drive the car 120 miles and I cant really complain about anything.

Next day I start the car up and notice the gear shift from 1st to second, 2nd to 1st and reverse are jerky but are fine when warm (explains why he couldnt see me straight away and only an hour later because he was probably warming the car up so that I dont notice this problem).

To top it all off today I recieved the new V5 with my name on it and to my shock and horror I find in the special notes that the car had been inspected after being repaired from substantial damage in 2005.

The guy has sold me lie after lie. I am just wondering is there anything I can do about this legally? Or am I just now stuck with this problem.

I know I have been absolutely stupid but for sure I will NEVER EVER make this mistake again. More than the loss of money I consider it important that this guy doesnt get away with this and others like me dont find themselves in this situation. soz to here this but have you not heard of HPI, its there to be used ,and a good eye would of spotted the damage repaired

ronmcintosh
01-09-2007, 01:47 AM
Hi there
A fair bit of good advice a couple of points though:

If the car has been used as a taxi, then the local council to where the guy lived will have licensed it, it will also have had an extra inspection every year over and above the Mot. If it has had a plate screwed on the back then that would be his license number.
It might be worthwhile giving them a call to see if they have a record of the car. If they do they will have a record of the mileage
If they have a record of a higher mileage, then i am fairly certain you have the guy by the short and curlies.

No council will want to give a license to someone who is defrauding members of the public. If you can dangle that over his head it may help

On the plus side, if you are right about the taxi thing, it does mean the car was properly repaired as the inspections to get the car licensed are very thorough

Also if you can show "just cause" i believe the DVLA can confirm mileages when the car has changed owners

Ron