Help! 3.2 FSI quattro or 3.0 TDI quattro

[dmahon]

My wife wants a car and she pretty much fell in love with an A4 cabriolet. Plan is to buy 2/3 years old.

We took one out from the dealer at the weekend and she was very happy, but would like an automatic gearbox. I managed to get out of work early today and took both a 3.0 TDI quattro and a 3.2 FSI quattro today (different dealers) and liked them both! So would she. The petrol car is 6 months older and has done 20k less miles, but is 2k more expensive.

Opinions on the two cars please? I'm in a position to buy one tomorrow. Both are fully loaded.

Roughly what should I be expecting from the dealer as a % off the sticker price so I don't get taken for a ride (and how low should I start the haggle)? No trade in, might take out the lowest finance possible to get the two years free servicing deal.

[Crasher]

Both are great engines, the TDI torque is amazing and even better when re-mapped. I am a petrol head but I don’t think I could resist the TDI’s benefits even with petrol running through my veins. I have seen some rather worrying cam chain faults with the 3.2FSI as well, extremely expensive to fix and utterly catastrophic if they fail completely which I have seen.

[kodkod.84]

In my mind- diesels and drop tops just don't mix, you want to hear the exhaust sounds and look cool with the roof down, not hear the tractor-type noises :biglaugh:

So if I was buying a cab it would be the petrol!

[dmahon]

What kind of discount can I expect off the window price from an Audi dealer. I'm happy to pay cash or to take out a minimum finance package (to benefit from the 2 years free servicing). No part-ex involved.

[adamss24]

In my mind- diesels and drop tops just don't mix, you want to hear the exhaust sounds and look cool with the roof down, not hear the tractor-type noises :biglaugh:

So if I was buying a cab it would be the petrol!
You need very sharp hearing to distinguish the sound a v6 tdi does compared with the petrol when the car is moving. Its just a very faint clatter when you start the engine from cold and you let it iddle, there are no noticeable vibrations as well compared to the petrol lump ! The torque, fuel economy and the overal feel of the diesel lump makes-it a very sensible buy !

[Mr_Meeks]

Diesel mixed with a drop top = :confused: "No No & No"

[bez101]

:AR15firinTDI
go petrol

[Crasher]

To be honest, the 3.2 V6 FSI doesn’t sound too nice, much like a 3 cylinder Polo 1.2 most of the time. I am not a great fan of diesels myself but in this case it is a non contest decision if you have driven both of the specific cars.

[toff]

Having read through the comments above, I have to say:

"TDI torque is amazing and even better when re-mapped. I am a petrol head but I don’t think I could resist the TDI’s benefits even with petrol running through my veins"
Agreed - when chipped you can get upto 270bhp from the 3.0 TDI (although stick to 250 for longevity) and 525lb/ft torque and it'll still return 550 miles to a tank if you drive sensibly most of the time!

Because the 3.2 is naturally aspirated, it's very expensive to tune and you'll only get small returns.

"In my mind- diesels and drop tops just don't mix, you want to hear the exhaust sounds and look cool with the roof down, not hear the tractor-type noises"
I do agree with this, but as someone else pointed out, when you are on the move you barely notice. Besides, the V6 TDI with a whistly turbo sound quite nice to my ear (unlike the 4 cyl 2.0 TDIs)

I've had an Golf with the 3.2 engine and an A4 with the 3.0 TDI - the 3.2 is a more fun & responsive engine but the 3.0TDI has more torque and is way way more economical!
If you'd asked 5 years ago and I'd say go for the 3.2 but as I'm nearly 30 and have different priorities in life - I'd say go for the 3.0!

Dealerships are pants with discount, go to a reputable Audi specialist motor trader (like Pioneer Automotive).

Al.

[Crasher]

Although the Golf 3.2 engine is a completely different design in all respects.

[MeAudi]

Hello dmahon,

Have you tried the 2.0TFSI. I know it's not quattro but the engine is good fun and easily remapped.

I was initially disappointed with the setup on the auto but after a remap, the car is a different beast.

[toff]

Although the Golf 3.2 engine is a completely different design in all respects.


Oh, is the 3.2 in the A4 a proper 90 degree V6 then? or is it just the head(s) / ancillaries etc that are different?

Al.

[Crasher]

Yes it is a proper wide angle (90 degree) dual head conventional V engine rather than a narrow angle (15 degree) common head V, the R in VR6 means Reihen or “rows”, so V in a row so to speak.

[toff]

Yes it is a proper wide angle (90 degree) dual head conventional V engine rather than a narrow angle (15 degree) common head V, the R in VR6 means Reihen or “rows”, so V in a row so to speak.

Ah thanks for explaining.

So I imagine it's a stronger and less troublesome block than the V6 lump they put in the Golf & A3? (but heavier no doubt?)

Al.

[Crasher]

I wouldn't say either is more trouble than the other, both have painful cam chain issues.

[dmahon]

Thanks all.

Have gone with the 3.0 TDI. The 3.2 petrol felt a little nippier, but it seemed a tad hesitant when pulling away for some reason (I guess it might have been just that car or even in my imagination).

Managed to get a second year of Audi warranty thrown in.

[Road Rocket]

I do wonder whether any of the guys saying no to the cabriolet and 3.0 TDI have actually listened to the engine when it's spinning at around 80mph (just purring at 2000rpm), let alone drive it. Its V6 super smooth engine bares no comparison to 2.0 litre 4 pot diesels. Even at low speeds around town you'll not be able to believe it is a diesel. The 3.0 TDI is exceptionally good because of its massive torque and when remapped it becomes really awesome, especially at motorway speeds where it will pull away at middle to high speeds at a surprising rate leaving most other vehicles well behind.

But they are both excellent engines so in the end it just comes down to personal choice.

[ALF_A4]

In my last job I worked with someone who had an A5 3.0TDi and spent a fair bit of time in/around it. I had an Alfa 3.2V6 (petrol!) at the time. While I agree the 3.0TDi makes a reasonably acceptable noise when underway, it is absolutely obvious at all times that it is a diesel unit and from outside the car it still sounds very diesel and very loud, especially on startup. Nothing like the wonderful sound of a good petrol engine. I know the Audi 3.2 is not a classic but I had a run in a V6 TT recently and was pleasantly suprised - I'd go petrol...

[Road Rocket]

I must be blessed with an exceptional 3.0TDI because the engine noise inside is extremely quiet and from the outside it doesn't sound like a diesel at all. All passengers I have carried have remarked on this.

However, everybody to their own but I still love the massive torque on this diesel engine which is simply awesome in mid to high range speeds and leaves many similar sized petrol engines well behind. Although of course that could be down to the excellent remapping (SharkPerformance).

[toff]

Firstly:
Congrats on your choice dmahon!

Sure, they sound awesome but a 3.2 V6 petrol engine is bound to be juicy and return mediocre mpg figures.

I think you have made the grown-up choice, best of both worlds with only the Diesel noise & stigma as the down-side! (depending upon your point of view - I share Road Rocket's sentiments!)


Secondly:
Shut-up you lot, you are making me miss my 3.0 :(

I have to say though, VAG 4 cylinder diesels do seem reasonably refined compared to their French counterparts!!

Supposedly BMW make the smoothest 4 cylinder petrols & Diesels - anybody got an opinion on this?

Al.

[bellkevin]

How are you getting on with the tt?

[stevemr]

I bought a 3.0 litre tdi cab with a moanual box a few weeks ago. It does not sound like a diesel at all even with the top down, the torque is amazing, getting average 36 mpg. on the 330 mile run back from scotland cruising at the legal limit got 47mpg. Can not begin to tell you how pleased I am with it

[fourringsrus]

Supposedly BMW make the smoothest 4 cylinder petrols & Diesels - anybody got an opinion on this?

Yes my dad has the 2.0 bmw diesel in a Rover 75 and it's nowhere as sweet as my father in laws' 2o tdi vw tiguan

[Lateknight]

The latest gen BMW diesels are a step ahead of even the latest common rail Audi 2.0tdi.
Had a ride in a current shape 3 series a couple of months ago, the engine is awesome for a 4 pot diesel. I'm not a beemer fan but couldn't help be impressed.

[bellkevin]

I bought a 3.0 litre tdi cab with a moanual box a few weeks ago. It does not sound like a diesel at all even with the top down, the torque is amazing, getting average 36 mpg. on the 330 mile run back from scotland cruising at the legal limit got 47mpg. Can not begin to tell you how pleased I am with it

Hmmm. Sounds really good! How do you find the noise compared to a 3.2? Well, I have the 3.2 petrol and the raspy exhaust and induction noise is amazing but I find the hard suspension too stiff. Part of the reason why I'm selling it. I'm going for a bmw 320d actually..

[stevemr]

Sounds a bit like a large capacity 4 cylinder petrol if anything, but definatly not like a diesel, what sort of mpg were you getting from your 3.2 ?

[bellkevin]

Sounds a bit like a large capacity 4 cylinder petrol if anything, but definatly not like a diesel, what sort of mpg were you getting from your 3.2 ?

Hmm. Nice. I still have it and get about 18mpg in town cos I nail it some times but with the cruise control on at 75mph I get 31mpg. Not bad I suppose.

[stevemr]

Thats why I bought the tdi, at 75 on cruise coming back from scotland where I bought it I got 47mpg and round town 30-35 mpg and I am also booting it a bit and demo ing it to friends :beerchug:

I bought it to go down to alps on holidays etc. and would not be happy with the mpg on a 3.2.

[allanmb]

To be honest, the 3.2 V6 FSI doesn’t sound too nice, much like a 3 cylinder Polo 1.2 mot of the time. I am not a great fan of diesels myself but in this case it is a non contest decision if you have driven both of the specific cars.

I think you are VERY mistaken here - perhaps the one you heard had some sort of problem, but I love the noise it makes especially >3000rpm.

To the OP, I had the same choice and went the petrol route, the extra power won it for me but also the lovely noise it makes. This noise will make a much bigger difference when you have the top down too!

As for discount, I managed to get just over 5% off from the dealer, but also managed to get a couple of little extras thrown in.

Allan

[Crasher]

I think you are VERY mistaken here - perhaps the one you heard had some sort of problem, but I love the noise it makes especially >3000rpm.

Not mistaken, I work on them for a living...

[allanmb]

Not mistaken, I work on them for a living...

Have you driven one properly?

Do you think that the 3.0TDI sounds nicer than the 3.2FSI?

[Crasher]

Err well yes, servicing them means I have to road test them before and after, let me clarify my comment though. They sound like two 3 cylinder engines which is what they are. There is a background note that reminds me of the Polo 3 cylinder under load, but don’t take my comment too seriously, it is only my opinion and nothing to get excited about

I think the 3.0TDI sounds very business like and I do like the way it sounds (better than the 2.5) but I prefer the sound of the 3.2FSI. The 3.0 TDI is beginning to worry me though, they are developing and alarming issue with the timing chains which is a complete nightmare to put right even before they fail, if they fail it is new engine time. One early one that I service makes my hair stand on end every time it starts up and the last time I did an oil change, I nearly had heart failure when I started it up until the oil pressure built up.

Initially I thought chains were a good idea, getting rid of those nasty failure prone belts but I am beginning to think that belts were a better idea as I am seeing some chains fail at about the same mileage as a belt and chains are far far more involved to change.

[allanmb]

To the OP, here is something that might help make up your mind...

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/openair-camping

[Crasher]

The car they used in that test has the 2.5 VEP engine, not the 3.0 CR unit.


Reg OY52 NWP
Chassis number WAUZZZ8H23K015410
Type 8H70DH
Engine code BFC
GEC Multitronic box
Cosmic yellow paint
Aniseed yellow interior
2003 model
Built 25/10/2002 by Karmann of Osnabrück.


I wonder who owns it now, if they are on here?

[stevemr]

OK now you have me worried, having bought my 3.0 tdi with a view to keeping it for a very long time, what is the issue with the cam chains, and at what mileage?

[Crasher]

They stretch and eventually jump which makes a terrible mess of the engine, the one mentioned above was having its 60K mile service...

[stevemr]

Is there no tensioner?

[Crasher]

Yes, the one that causes the issue is the lower hydraulically operated one, it seems to run out of adjustment and back off significantly when the engine stops. When the engine starts, the tensioner is pushed out by oil pressure.

It would not be so much of a problem if the engine didn’t have to come out to replace them.

[stevemr]

Is there anything I should do to minimise the risk, like letting the car idle for a while before pulling away?

[Crasher]

I don’t think there is any way of preventing the chains stretching.

[stevemr]

Oh thats great, is this with all the engines do you think?

I bought this car after very carefull consideration hoping to keep it for at least 10 years! Have I amde a huge mistake?

[Crasher]

I don’t know yet but it seems to be a common issue.

[stevemr]

Guess I will have to keep my fingures crossed, thanks any way.

[stevemr]

Crasher, do you know if its just the pre 2005 engines that are having this problem, will I be all right with a 2007 model?

Also can a mechanic tell when they are servicing it if its worn, ie noise or can you get to it or does the diagnostic indicate the timing is moving?

Lastly how much does it cost to actually change them?

Sorry to ask all these questions but you do have me a bit worried!

[Crasher]

I have heard a 2007 rattle so no it is not just early ones, the 3.0CR I mention is a late 2005. You can't inspect them but a trained ear can hear them on start up and if bad, it is very obvious, even more so when for an oil change start up.

[stevemr]

Ok; how much to change them?

[Road Rocket]

Please see postings on "3.0TDI Common Faults" thread. This is getting a bit out of hand and possibly causing concern where none effectively exist except for the odd rogue engine perhaps. If this fault was so bad it would have been a major issue but search the internet and you'll find hardly anything except for an occasional anecdote on older A6 engines.

Like I said in my posting on that thread it could happen but then again you could also be hit by lightning. I don't believe this is a "common fault" as nobody seems to have heard of it until Crasher mentioned it. At this rate all 3.0TDI owners will be nervous wrecks! Perhaps somebody needs to write to Audi to clarify the situation.

Stop worrying and just enjoy the superb engine that the 3.0TDI is.

[Crasher]

Good advice but it was an ex Audi servive manager , now an indi, who told me what a problem it is...

[Road Rocket]

Thanks for the reply Crasher and as an official sponsor I have a great deal of respect for you. However, here's my problem; you state that ... " but it was an ex Audi servive manager , now an indi, who told me what a problem it is...". Now I've no idea whether the guy has an axe to grind etc but from all my research I cannot find CONCRETE proof that this problem exists in any substantial amount of engines, indeed in any of the engines quoted apart from nebulous anecdotal accounts.

My premise is this. If the Audi 3.0TDI had such a bad reputation of failing cam chains there would have been an outcry amongst the motoring press - and yet their silence on this subject is deafening.

I also cannot believe that 'Vorsprung Durch Technik' and its reputation would be so crass as to develop and manufacture engines with such an appalling fault as a cam chain tensioner defect that would wrap the chain around the engine causing such devastation. It is inconceivable that Audi would allow this problem to continue, if indeed it ever existed apart from rogue engines.

As far as I know there has not been one owner of the 3.0TDI on the whole of this forum that has complained about this apparent problem. If it were a common fault I would have expected at least a few owners to have made their reservations made public in the strongest terms.

[Crasher]

A number of current VAG engines suffer from terrible timing chain problems, right from the 3 cylinder Polo upto the 4.2 V8 petrol, very well documeneted and much written about. I have a 2004 S4 V8 to price up right now.

[mhobson]

Hello, on another post I asked about advice on buying a 4 year old 3.0 tdi cabriolet with 265,000 miles on it, was advised against it and have bought one with 64,000. I was impressed that it had timing chains and not a belt after a big problem with my A6 timing belt. I was also impressed that the high mileage car still had the original engine so felt secure in the hope that I had bought a reliable car, I do not change my cars often. I was advised that the polybelt might need changing at about 100k. I have been concerned about the chain tensioner issues mentioned. My A4 seems to run very quietly with just a slight diesel clatter on startup, much less than the A6 2.5 tdi. Any advice on detecting a potential problem early would be appreciated, I understand that the chains are at the back of the engine, so they would be closer to the driver and possibly easier heard, though the sound insulation is excellent. The car, however, is fantastic, a joy to drive and my wife and I are very pleased with it, not only is it comfortable and fast we averaged better than 40 mpg on a 900 mile journey from Hamburg to mid France where we live, travelling up to 112 mph on the autobahn and 80 mph in France. Only slightly negative point is that the revs drop slowly so you can't change from 1st to 2nd quickly (Man box) when you accelerate hard and the gearbox is more notchy than my A6. Michael

[Road Rocket]

In my mind- diesels and drop tops just don't mix, you want to hear the exhaust sounds and look cool with the roof down, not hear the tractor-type noises :biglaugh:

So if I was buying a cab it would be the petrol!

LOL! Whenever did you here a V6 TDI sounding like a tractor? Mine purrs like a kitten and the difference between a petrol engine noise is minimal. The 3.0TDI is a superb engine (and like others have said) the torque is amazing - coupled with a remap these engines are very hard to beat in so many ways. At around 80 mph it's doing a relaxing 2,000 rpm with just a quiet hum from the engine - foot down (where legal) and it powers forward as if unleashed from a chain. One of the best engines I've ever driven and full marks to Audi. Auto gearbox by the way.