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View Full Version : Help with Group 002 and 032 VAG results



orienteer
23-07-2009, 02:17 PM
Have done some data collecting regarding my engine light for running too lean.

The Block 002 figures for a 2nd gear run are:

1600rpm 12 g/s
2080 25
2640 32
3400 42
4040 50
4640 58
5120 60
5600 63
6000 63

The car is a 2.0 so if MAF is supposed to peak at approx 80% of BHP then should I expect a peak reading of approx 90+ g/s ??

I also had a drive with Block 032 logging. When I had driven about, up to 60mph at one point, and came home and idled for a while my final figures were:

idle fuel trim : -11.7 %
Accel trim : +14.1 %

The first indicates too rich at idle, the second too lean during a high speed run.

Any thoughts?

Regards, Ian

Crasher
23-07-2009, 02:35 PM
What is the engine code? Check the pipe from the AMM to the throttle body where it goes off to the oil breather, they often split.

orienteer
23-07-2009, 11:12 PM
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 018 GS
Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/2V MOTR HS V03
Software Coding: 00031
Work Shop Code: WSC 00066
1 Fault Found:
17536 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Mult): System too Lean
P1128 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

Have removed an visually examined the air box to throttle body pipe, no splits apparent.

I have removed the MAF and cleaned with isopropyl alcohol. Have done a further VAG run and MAF readings the same.

There is a small vac (?) pipe from a capsule at the front left of the engine to a attachment point on the inlet manifold itself. This is stretched REAL tight to fit and could be a problem if it is related in any way ??

I will double check the engine oil breather joint again when it's light tomorrow.

Regards, Ian

Crasher
24-07-2009, 03:53 PM
Not the fault code, the engine code that the car was built with, but the ECU number 06A 906 018 GS tells me that it is an AQY engine. The VAG procedure is

17536 (P1128) Bank 1 mixture adaption (mult.*) system too lean

Check fuel pressure regulator and holding pressure
Check injectors
Check fuel pump
Check intake system for leaks
Check exhaust system for leaks
Check secondary air system for leaks
Check vacuum pipes for leaks

* mul = multiplicative - The effects of the fault (e.g. faulty injector) will increase as the engine speed increases

What is the MVB reading for Measuring Blocks 002, Display Zone 4 at idle?

Your MVB 032 Display Zone 1 is too low, Display Zone 2 is too high. Low values indicate that the engine is running too rich and therefore the Lambda regulation is leaning the mixture. High values indicate that the engine is running too lean and therefore the Lambda regulation enriches the mixture. If there is no air leak, this points to a faulty AMM but I have also seen this caused by a faulty Lambda sensor giving the wrong information.

a8 tech
24-07-2009, 04:01 PM
quick way to fool the lambda is to induce air leak and watch the values if the lambda reacts accordingly then reconnect and try to re age the lambda if the test comes back not ok look at air mass values at idle and part throttle as Good old Crasher (Hello Crasher)suggest but this is mainly down to airmass showing a rich mixture.Good luck as this fault code and mvb 32 can sometimes be difficult as every time you clear the fault code mvb 32 zeros and broad band lambda faults can take a couple of weeks to reoccur.

Crasher
24-07-2009, 04:07 PM
Where you been old man?

a8 tech
24-07-2009, 04:16 PM
I am still here but there are so many new members answering post and there not as polite as me and you lol.I have been low key just answering electrical stuff really and i am about to go to France.Hope you are well and your workshop is turning a good profit,are you starting to see the 2.0 pd diesels now there coming out of warranty and if so i feel sorry for you lol

Crasher
24-07-2009, 04:19 PM
I am off at the moment and the workshop is purposely very quite as my other mechanic is off sick due to trying to kill himself on his organ donor machine and I have a chap in at the moment holding the fort until I get back when I have more work than I know what to do with.

Don’t talk to me about BKD engines! I thought the AKL 150 was a joke but the 2 litre 16v is a bad joke!

a8 tech
24-07-2009, 04:29 PM
At one point i was pre ordering cylinder heads as soon as the words coolant loss were mentioned common rail 2.0 is good so far but flooded with A3 dsg faults now which is the new mulit chronic epidemic.O well keeps me busy.

Crasher
24-07-2009, 04:32 PM
I knew the DSG was going to be a disaster as soon as I read about them, we are staring to see people with faults on early Golf 5’s now out of even goodwill cover but as soon as they are told the horrific cost of a new box they get shot of the car.

orienteer
24-07-2009, 06:38 PM
What is the MVB reading for Measuring Blocks 002, Display Zone 4 at idle?



I'm guessing you're after idle MAF which was about 3.69g/s

From what I've read this is correct and elsewhere a question has been answered regarding MAF readings on a 2.0 Jetta which commented that 60+ on accel is acceptable.

I found, elsewhere, that using the VAG-COM you can run a test of the pre-cat and post-cat sensors. It was dealing with a VR6 something or other but I guessed my Beetle would be there somewhere.

I had a look at blocks 034 and 036 but, in basic settings, I couldn't perform a test on either :(

It would be usefull to check the 'age' of the pre cat sensor before I spend money :Blush:

Regards, Ian

orienteer
24-07-2009, 06:45 PM
P.S. I don't suppose the pre and post cat sensors are the same?

I have a spare cat and post cat sensor in the garage !!

a8 tech
24-07-2009, 06:55 PM
before the cat is broad band and after is just a normal O2 sensor so they dont interchange air mass has to be spot on not there or there abouts so reconsider your readings and look more at motorway cruise speeds as this where leaning mixture should be occurring, to pre age the fault code will require erasing and there are steps to follow like cat temp and throttle position i don't have the exact info in front of me but like Crasher i wont give advise with out exact engine code make and model details or refer to other engine types ie vr6.

orienteer
24-07-2009, 08:42 PM
I agree that being precise is important. As Crasher said I have the 2.0 8v AQY engine in my 01/01/2001 New Beetle.

As a point of interest the car had a run out today, 20 mile round trip, and it was when I pulled up on the drive, as has happened before, that the CEL illuminated. Strange.

It is probably nurgatory work but after seeing the air filter last night I have bought a fresh one today, and a fuel filter to change on spec.

The car was 'serviced' before I bought it, a matter of miles ago, but the air filter appeared grubbier than I would have expected. Who knows, I'm changing it anyway.

The fuel filter wasn't expensive so will swop that out.

I'd rather know where I stand with these basic service items than find out it's one of them later on.

Regards, Ian

Crasher
24-07-2009, 10:15 PM
“swop that out”!!! I thought you were in Her Majesties Royal Air Force, not the USAF!

orienteer
25-07-2009, 09:32 PM
Ha ha sorry it just came out!! :biglaugh:

I was hoping for some advice on doing a functional test of my pre cat sensor using the VAG kit but have found nothing yet.

Apart from thoroughly cleaning the Bug I have, today, changed a brake bulb and the air filter. I also put a wee bit of tape on the vac (?) pipe between the inlet manifold and a capsule that looks to be at the end of the engine's fuel rail. I will change the pipe when I get into Reading VW to buy one.

I used my Memoscan OBD2 reader to clear the current codes off (P0171 and P0172). Interestingly the MAF reading sat at idle was now 4.60 compared to a previous 3.70g/s

Maybe that it's different test kit, maybe a connection made better during the part strip to change the filter or maybe that the old filter was 'manky!'.

I'm off to Volksfest tomorrow which is a first for me and will see how the Bug runs. I will also price up an OE MAF as well as a pre cat sensor when I pop into VW.

Thoughts on the increased MAF reading ?

Regards, Ian

Crasher
25-07-2009, 10:05 PM
You can carry out pre cat lambda tests with VAG-COM or VAG equivalent machines in Basic Settings performing what is known as the Readiness Code.

orienteer
25-07-2009, 10:17 PM
Thanks Crasher.

I saw the readiness tests when having a nosey through the software so will give that a whirl.

If the pre cat sensor passes test I'm still wary of changing the MAF as my little mechanical biased brain can compute the sensor wire gacking up with inlet particles but does it 'electronically' fail over time.

As I said I've given it a thorough clean with IPA so it shouldn't be that :confused:

Your time appreciated anyhoo, thanks.

Ian :beerchug:

Crasher
25-07-2009, 10:27 PM
I can split this problem on this engine (in its three codes in the Golf 4 platform i.e. Beetle) 50/50 between lambda sensor and AMM, I would hate to have to tell you which but my gut instinct says AMM although a little nagging voice says lambda. Cleaning the AMM is very rarely successfully for me, I just fit a VAG exchange unit and see what happens, pretty easy for me though as I keep the full range of genuine exchange units in stock.

orienteer
25-07-2009, 11:06 PM
Do you know a 'ball park' figure for a replacement MAF and a replacement pre cat sensor?

I will still endeavour to test the pre cat before I buy.

Considering the symptoms P0171 and P0172 the mixture is swinging perhaps. Could this lean the fault diagnosis towards the Pre cat which may be being slow to respond ??

I'm just speculating I guess !

As an aside I found the following : http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=450 there is comment regarding the O2 sensor on this too.

regards, Ian

Crasher
26-07-2009, 03:10 PM
Which diagnostic system are you using? Can it show measuring Blocks 08 and Basic Settings 04? If so, I can send you a procedure for setting the Readiness Code which allows you to test the lambda sensors, cat and other elements of the emissions control system BUT I have still seen this pass a failed pre cat lambda, which is a common problem on these. It was even a recall when the Beetle 2 litre came out which is what I think that stupid link you posted was trying to inform about but the bloody silly pop up kept crashing Internet Explorer. Don’t take too much store from that man; he does seem to have a severe and inexplicable issue with VAG-rather like me and a certain Bavarian manufacturer’s products.

orienteer
26-07-2009, 05:51 PM
VAG-COM 311.2N

I have managed the 140 mile trip to London Volksfest and back without any engine light on !!

See the attached image :

http://s760.photobucket.com/albums/xx248/orienteer/Car%20mechanicals/?action=view&current=Vacleak-Beetle.jpg

I have tried to indicate the small vac pipe I carried out a temporary repair on.

It may have been the air filter change ... time will now tell.

I'd still like a crack at testing the pre cat and will plug the vag-com back in when I have a mo to see if I can access the blocks you mentioned.

regards, ian

kenney
26-07-2009, 06:04 PM
(quote) I also put a wee bit of tape on the vac (?) pipe between the inlet manifold and a capsule that looks to be at the end of the engine's fuel rail. I will change the pipe when I get into Reading VW to buy one.
For what it is worth,I think this is the vacuum hose for the fuel pressure regulator,and if it has been leaking,the engine will have been running with the wrong fuel pressure.Perhaps a combination of high fuel pressure and the air filter

Crasher
26-07-2009, 10:04 PM
No pics are coming up on Photobucket but any air leak will cause the problem you had.

orienteer
26-07-2009, 10:38 PM
Mr Crasher sir :D

Thank you for your patience and support.

I have edited the above post so the image link should work, some geek I am !!

http://s760.photobucket.com/albums/xx248/orienteer/Car%20mechanicals/?action=view&current=Vacleak-Beetle.jpg&newest=1

It's just to give an idea where the deteriorated pipe is. I will get a fresh piece from VW shortly.

Regards, Ian

Crasher
27-07-2009, 10:40 AM
Replacing that pipe should solve the problem.

orienteer
29-07-2009, 01:57 PM
:(:1zhelp:

After managing the long trip I went to Reading yesterday to buy the vac pipe and with the engine under some load in 4th the light popped on again. My wife is getting real angry !!

Have taken the codes which are again:

VAG-COM Version: Release 311.2-N

Chassis Type: 9C - VW Beetle
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,17,19,26,35,46,54,56

Address 01 -------------------------------------------------------
Controller: 06A 906 018 GS
Component: 2.0l R4/2V MOTR HS V03
Coding: 00031
Shop #: WSC 00066
2 Faults Found:
17536 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Mult): System too Lean
P1128 - 35-00 - -
16556 - Fuel Trim: System Too Rich: Bank 1
P0172 - 35-00 - -
Readiness: 0000 0000

So still the fuel trims out of allowed parameters.

Crasher, regarding this VAG-COM software I do have access to measuring blocks-08 and Basic settings-04 so if there is a functional test or tests I would be sincerely gratefull.

VW said yesterday the pre-cat would be £130 or a MAF £70 I think. Not quite the sort of money I would throw at the car without trying harder to fault diagnose first!

Any help appreciated.

ian

P.S. On another post, elsewhere, I read a test where you run the engine and gentle lift off the oil filler cap. If there is a suction felt then there is a fault in the inlet pipework. Thoughts ???

orienteer
29-07-2009, 03:29 PM
I have an Excel 2003 spreadsheet with group readings from 0-99 at idle if that would help

Ian

Crasher
29-07-2009, 03:36 PM
Excel spread sheets make me sleepy. PM me your email.

orienteer
30-07-2009, 11:24 PM
I'll carry on with the Bug ('ger!) when I get a couple of hours. Thanks for the email Crasher.

I am now, while in work on nights, looking into a problem with my colleagues 1998 2.0 S40 Volvo which has an intermittent bogging down between 1000 and 2500 rpm. Scary on roundabouts apparently!

I found the following link which I thought you might be interested in which has a stack of engine diagnosis stuff.

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/faq/EnginePerformanceSymptoms.html

Will feedback about my Bug when I find out more.

Regards, Ian

orienteer
18-09-2009, 09:08 PM
Have done some data collecting regarding my engine light for running too lean.

The Block 002 figures for a 2nd gear run are:

1600rpm 12 g/s
2080 25
2640 32
3400 42
4040 50
4640 58
5120 60
5600 63
6000 63

The car is a 2.0 so if MAF is supposed to peak at approx 80% of BHP then should I expect a peak reading of approx 90+ g/s ??

I also had a drive with Block 032 logging. When I had driven about, up to 60mph at one point, and came home and idled for a while my final figures were:

idle fuel trim : -11.7 %
Accel trim : +14.1 %

The first indicates too rich at idle, the second too lean during a high speed run.

Any thoughts?

Regards, Ian

I've chased this for weeks, learning and learning. I have worked through the service stuff, all filters, eng' oil etc

Today I bit the bullet and bought a new AMM. After fit I did the Wide Open Throttle (WOT) run on the vag-com. Readings as follows:

rpm / flow after / flow before new AMM
1800 27 20
2000 30 25
2200 33 29
2500 37 32
2700 45 35
3000 50 38
3300 54 41
3600 62 46
3900 68 50
4200 73 54
4400 80 55
4700 83 58
4900 85 59
5200 88 60
5400 91 62

As has been stated elsewhere it proves that AMM figures can give a clue. The WOT should in theory be 80% of engine bhp at full rpm. Above is proven that 115bhp * 0.8 = 92 ... ta da :biglaugh:

The long term fuel trim figures, today, changed in minutes from measuring block

032 -18% +24.2%

to

032 -6.3% 3.9%

Lets hope I have a break from engine lights as I'm sure my anti roll bar bushes have gone so I need to sort that now :mad:

Just thought I'd share. CRASHER thanks for your support.

Regards, Ian