PDA

View Full Version : Query about DSG



southbynorth
20-06-2009, 10:09 PM
Hi everyone, I am thinking of px my mk 5 GT Sport for a GTD, I have never had an automatic before but everyone seems to rave about the DSG - genuine question here, whats good/bad about it? Any genuineadvantages/disadvantages to a 6 speed manual?

Thank!

J400uk
20-06-2009, 11:51 PM
Sorry I can't help you with the DSG stuff, but why do you want a GTD??

They are ridiculously overpriced. A Scirocco GT TDI 170 with the same engine and more equipment will cost less, likewise with a Seat Leon. You could even get a AUDI A3 TDI 170 for less. For the same money as the GTD you could also get a BMW 120d which is more powerful and more economical.

You really pay through your nose here for the Golf brand


ETA - Just to be clear I don't think its a bad car, just too expensive for what it is.

southbynorth
21-06-2009, 04:52 PM
To be honest I havent fully made my mind up yet - still int he shopping and research stage.

Scirocco is out of the question - while you are right that it has more equipment I need the 5 doors, a 5 year old and 3 year old dictate that unfortunately (:

BMW is also out for the same reason, I test drove one and loved it until I tried to sit in the back behind my drivers seat, the rear leg space was so tight I had to fight to get out of the car :biglaugh:

Audi A3 - hadnt thought of that yet, I like them but arent they based on the old golf? Would rather wait until the new A3 comes out, I suspect that may not be too long away, maybe next year? (I am not in a rush if I get a better car for waiting a year/6 months)

Seat - I used to have a Ibiza FR and a Leon Cupra before that, loved them both, I love the interior of the current leon but the outside looks dont do it for me plus the nearest dealership is 50 miles away, I know I can get it serviced at the nearby VW dealership but warrenty claims/issues I would prefer to go through the purchasing dealership, I had issues in the past when I moved from kent to dorset and the dealer in Salisbury wouldnt give me a courtesy car as I didnt buy from them and Seat UK were unable to help - tbh that has kinda put me off the brand a little as their dealerships can be very hit and miss

J400uk
21-06-2009, 07:26 PM
Audi A3, Golf MK5 and Golf MK6 all share the same platform, thats why a lot of people say the MK6 Golf is only really a facelift as its essentially the same underneath. The 2.0 TDI 170 CR is a new engine available in the MK6 GTD and Audi A3.

maisbitt
22-06-2009, 08:35 AM
The DSG is as good as automatics get - fast and smooth changes, the economy is good too. There is almost no penalty over the manual when you fill up.

I don't have one (never felt the need to spend £1300 on one) but my Dad has a MK 5 170 TDI GT with DSG. Occasionally it's a little too smart for it's own good, it adapts to your driving style with it's changes, and if you start driving a little out of character it can do things you don't wan't it to do (like changing up/down later than you'd like).

If you're into automatics then you'll not be disappointed with the DSG.

Robbie G
22-06-2009, 11:24 AM
Almost no penalty? Quoted fuel efficiency is better with the DSG than the manual.

maisbitt
22-06-2009, 11:32 AM
Almost no penalty? Quoted fuel efficiency is better with the DSG than the manual.

1.4TSI with 7 speed DSG has better economy than manual, but 2.0TDI and 2.0TSI with 6 speed DSG have slightly lower mpg than manual.

southbynorth
22-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Thanks for all the replies, while the DSG sounds good it doesnt sound like its worth the price so I will stick to manual :)

Off to look at an Audi A3 later this week but I may stick with the GT 140 - its nearly as fast as the 170 and there seems to be far more wriggle room for haggling with it for some reason

maisbitt
22-06-2009, 01:13 PM
The A3 is quite a poor depreciator at the moment, this may improve if there's a facelift coming (as per Golf MK5 to MK6 improvements).

It's all opinions, but most people would probably agree that the Golf is a better looking car than an A3, and better equipped at comparable pricepoints too.

Robbie G
22-06-2009, 01:33 PM
All I will say is that once you've used an auto, it's hard to go back to a manual (for every day driving).

J400uk
22-06-2009, 03:27 PM
The A3 is quite a poor depreciator at the moment, this may improve if there's a facelift coming (as per Golf MK5 to MK6 improvements).

It's all opinions, but most people would probably agree that the Golf is a better looking car than an A3, and better equipped at comparable pricepoints too.

A3 was facelifted quite recently, and it sells very very well. The residuals are rock solid as the Audi badge means its hugely desirable.




Off to look at an Audi A3 later this week but I may stick with the GT 140 - its nearly as fast as the 170 and there seems to be far more wriggle room for haggling with it for some reason

Good idea. Have you thought about the Golf GT TSI 160? Its cheaper than both the GT TDI 140 and GTD, and faster than both. Will make sense if you do 10k miles or less per year.

maisbitt
22-06-2009, 03:42 PM
Good idea. Have you thought about the Golf GT TSI 160? Its cheaper than both the GT TDI 140 and GTD, and faster than both. Will make sense if you do 10k miles or less per year.

If you talk purely in 0-60, the GTD is 0.1s behind the 160TSI, but in gear acceleration in the overtaking range, the TSI would be left choking on dust - the 170TDI has comparable 40-80mph acceleration to the GTI. The only reason it is slower off the mark is that it has too much torque to put that power down. The quattro equipped TT 170TDI gets to 60mph in 7.5 seconds, just to illustrate what the 170 lump can do when initial grip isn't an issue.

I've had a 170TDI MK5 Golf, and it blew the 170TSI away once it was moving, but the MK6 Golf GTD is hideously overpriced, so the 160TSI could be a viable option, if the mileage doesn't add up to give significant fuel savings over the initial outlay of a TDI.

I settled for the 140TDI unit in a Scirocco GT, wasn't prepared to wait for the 170's arrival, and it seemed overpriced too.

J400uk
22-06-2009, 04:13 PM
Correct about the mid range punch, but for me straight off the line performance is more important, and thats where the TSI excels.

You may also be interested to hear, that the TSI 160 is faster in the mid-range than the TDI 140, even though it has less torque. The TDI 140 does 50-75 mph in 13.5 seconds, and the TSI 160 does the same sprint in 12 seconds.

Comparing GTI to GTD, the GTI takes 9.5 seconds 50-75, and the GTD does it in 10 seconds.

Those figures are all from vw.de and for a 6-speed manual car.

maisbitt
22-06-2009, 04:25 PM
I'd still rather have the midrange punch and settle for the 0.1s penalty 0-60 (as well as a £50 a month saving on my fuel bill) if I still had the 170.

0.1s is neither here nor there, but both are adequate to wipe the smile off a Corsa charva's face:biglaugh:

zoom
23-06-2009, 02:08 AM
All I will say is that once you've used an auto, it's hard to go back to a manual (for every day driving).

Rob - a quick question: I'm seriously thinking about ordering the 1.4 TSi SE with the DSG box (I only have an auto licence anyway - due to a gammy leg). Do I really need the multi-function steering wheel with paddles? Or is the basic 'factory fitted' steering wheel set-up okay? Splashing-out an extra £650-odd quid for the fancy steering wheel & paddles seems very dear to me & that seems a lot extra to find for something I could probably do without...as long as the car drives nice in 'S' mode, etc. Thanks in advance mate.

elidag
23-06-2009, 05:55 AM
Rob - a quick question: I'm seriously thinking about ordering the 1.4 TSi SE with the DSG box (I only have an auto licence anyway - due to a gammy leg). Do I really need the multi-function steering wheel with paddles? Or is the basic 'factory fitted' steering wheel set-up okay? Splashing-out an extra £650-odd quid for the fancy steering wheel & paddles seems very dear to me & that seems a lot extra to find for something I could probably do without...as long as the car drives nice in 'S' mode, etc. Thanks in advance mate.


I have now driven my GT with a DSG box for about 5000 miles now and have to admit that I only get to play with the paddles about once a week. This may be down to the type of journies I make but I do not think I would really miss them if they were removed. Anyway you can always use the sequential shift on the gear box in D mode. Just as a quick comment this is my first auto box and I agree even after the short time I have had it is difficult seeing myself going back to manual

Dave

nebw
23-06-2009, 08:12 AM
The problem I have with the paddles is that they rotate with the wheel. Half the times when you would want to use the paddles, e.g. when you have to slow as a bend tightens more than you thought, your hands won't be in the 10 to 2 position and it's actually less distracting to nudge the gearlever than to locate the paddles.

I've always wanted to ask VW/Audi: if the indicator and wiper stalks don't rotate with the wheel, why should the gearshift paddles ?

That said, if I were ordering from the factory:
- I would definitely add a leather MF steering wheel to the spec anyway, as the non-leather wheel is horrid and out of place in the generally very smart SE interior;
- it's not that expensive to add paddles on top, and I'm sure it's worth it just for resale plus a bit of fun in the meantime.

Robbie G
23-06-2009, 08:41 AM
Rob - a quick question: I'm seriously thinking about ordering the 1.4 TSi SE with the DSG box (I only have an auto licence anyway - due to a gammy leg). Do I really need the multi-function steering wheel with paddles? Or is the basic 'factory fitted' steering wheel set-up okay? Splashing-out an extra £650-odd quid for the fancy steering wheel & paddles seems very dear to me & that seems a lot extra to find for something I could probably do without...as long as the car drives nice in 'S' mode, etc. Thanks in advance mate.

Zoom, no you don't need it at all. There are many things though that you don't need but that would be nice. I'm not sure whether or not the SE now comes with the improved leather wheel as standard but if not, definitely go for that as the standard wheel is...shocking to be honest. As for the multifunction, again I'm not sure what's standard as I've bought a GT, but if you mean the ability to change tracks on the stereo and cycle through options on the display, then I personally would purchase it.

As for the paddles, they were only a £150 upgrade for the GT, so I went for it. However I can see me using them very infrequently. It was just a gimic that I decided to bolt on for an occasional bit of fun really.


The problem I have with the paddles is that they rotate with the wheel. Half the times when you would want to use the paddles, e.g. when you have to slow as a bend tightens more than you thought, your hands won't be in the 10 to 2 position and it's actually less distracting to nudge the gearlever than to locate the paddles.

I've always wanted to ask VW/Audi: if the indicator and wiper stalks don't rotate with the wheel, why should the gearshift paddles ?

That said, if I were ordering from the factory:
- I would definitely add a leather MF steering wheel to the spec anyway, as the non-leather wheel is horrid and out of place in the generally very smart SE interior;
- it's not that expensive to add paddles on top, and I'm sure it's worth it just for resale plus a bit of fun in the meantime.

Agree with your last two points, but as for paddles staying still, the generally accepted hand position for 'sportier' driving is quarter to three. It is possible to leave your hands in this position and successfully navigate 90% of Britain's roads. Personally, if the paddles remained static, I would find it annoying having to move my hands from the wheel if I wanted to change gear on a bend.

Final thought: they're actually more like buttons on a cheap PC joystick than paddles!!

maisbitt
23-06-2009, 08:57 AM
If you're buying an SE you should definitely get the multifunction steering wheel, not so much for the paddles, but for the leather wheel.

I had an SE MK5 Golf as a courtesy car a year ago, and that plasticcy wheel felt like I was driving a fiat Punto. To be that cheap on a Golf is shocking, how much must it cost VW to clad that steering wheel in leather? £10? Then charge the customer about £25?

It is wrong to charge so much for a car then have the one piece that's always in your hands to feel so cheap.

Unless you're picking the SE for it having softer suspension, maybe you'd consider a GT instead?

zoom
23-06-2009, 11:22 AM
Zoom, no you don't need it at all. There are many things though that you don't need but that would be nice. I'm not sure whether or not the SE now comes with the improved leather wheel as standard but if not, definitely go for that as the standard wheel is...shocking to be honest. As for the multifunction, again I'm not sure what's standard as I've bought a GT, but if you mean the ability to change tracks on the stereo and cycle through options on the display, then I personally would purchase it.

As for the paddles, they were only a £150 upgrade for the GT, so I went for it. However I can see me using them very infrequently. It was just a gimic that I decided to bolt on for an occasional bit of fun really.

Thanks for the helpful advice Rob. And no - in their infinite wisdom - VW still don't kit the SE out with the leather steering wheel which - to be honest - is bloody mean of them to say the least. Perhaps the S model I could understand...but the SE? That's just plain mean & penny-pinching.

As mentioned elsewhere; I currently drive a C2 VTR 1.6 which has paddles on the steering wheel. These aren't on the actual wheel itself but "fixed" to the column where the wiper/indicator stalks are. What's more - they are narrow but about 4" long - making them ideal for driving as no matter where your hands are (quarter to or ten to) - they are simply there! My hats-off to Citroen on that one for expert design & forward thinking!

maisbitt
23-06-2009, 11:29 AM
Coming from a Citroen VTR, you won't be a stranger to firm suspension - why not go for the GT (not sure what the price differential is between SE and GT) - the SE does not feel very special for a moderately expensive car. Its got a few other bits and bobs over the GT, but what it has over the GT can be bought on options for very little (convenience pack).

zoom
23-06-2009, 11:31 AM
If you're buying an SE you should definitely get the multifunction steering wheel, not so much for the paddles, but for the leather wheel.

I had an SE MK5 Golf as a courtesy car a year ago, and that plasticcy wheel felt like I was driving a fiat Punto. To be that cheap on a Golf is shocking, how much must it cost VW to clad that steering wheel in leather? £10? Then charge the customer about £25?

It is wrong to charge so much for a car then have the one piece that's always in your hands to feel so cheap.

Unless you're picking the SE for it having softer suspension, maybe you'd consider a GT instead?

Thanks. I have come to the conclusion overnight that if I opt for the Golf in SE guise - the leather steering wheel is simply a 'must have' option really - if only to keep the cabin smart in appearance! I agree it's shocking of VW not to include it as standard anyway. I can't think of any car manufacturer anywhere that doesn't include a leather covered steering wheel on a car with the price tag of a new Golf! Someone somewhere needs a word in their ear...

zoom
23-06-2009, 11:40 AM
Coming from a Citroen VTR, you won't be a stranger to firm suspension - why not go for the GT (not sure what the price differential is between SE and GT) - the SE does not feel very special for a moderately expensive car. Its got a few other bits and bobs over the GT, but what it has over the GT can be bought on options for very little (convenience pack).

The VTR is indeed a very firm ride...which I love to be honest! It 'feels' every little ridge, bump, stone even - and sticks to the road like glue.
I will have a look at price differences between SE and GT maisbitt as I'm not sure of all the new Golf prices off-hand. Will let you know when I find out. Cheers.

nebw
23-06-2009, 11:51 AM
If you like a firm, well damped ride, the GT is a very worthwhile step up from the SE. I love the standard GT interior.

brunel
20-10-2009, 11:41 AM
Thinking about trading my Polo GT 130 for an Ibiza Cupra 1.4TSI with DSG (this is likely to be the engine spec for the Polo GTI next year).

As both the engine and gearbox are relatively new (and complex) does anyone have a view on the long term life of these and once out of warranty is the car likely to depreciate more heavily than the traditional engines/gear boxes?

Who knows????

griffart
20-10-2009, 03:19 PM
If you do a lot of stop-start driving in traffic GET THE DSG! I'm on day six of mine and do a 30-mile daily commute on an equal mix of country roads, congested traffic and motorway. DSG is so good that I now look forward to going to work in the mornings. The only time I need to use manual is on a steep twisty hill where it consistantly finds itself in a gear too high on the way up and a gear or two too low on the way down.

the_crofter
20-10-2009, 09:32 PM
As mentioned earlier, once you've had a DSG you'll not want to go back to a manual. That's certainly my experience for what it's worth.

jjh
20-10-2009, 11:45 PM
As mentioned earlier, once you've had a DSG you'll not want to go back to a manual. That's certainly my experience for what it's worth.

Spent two and half years agreeing with that point of view, I got to about 70K miles before switching preference back to a manual, I'm looking forward to having full control of my engine.

I've gotta say though that DSG is a great option, I've really enjoyed it but has become a bit of a wind-up you know, it gets boring, you have to have driven one for a while to understand...I'm sure i'll have another, might even have a little regret by swopping, only time will tell...

If you haven't tried DSG, its definately worth a try, you can always swop back to manual with your next car, its one of the few factory options that you will see much value from.

jjh
21-10-2009, 12:22 AM
Hi everyone, I am thinking of px my mk 5 GT Sport for a GTD, I have never had an automatic before but everyone seems to rave about the DSG - genuine question here, whats good/bad about it? Any genuineadvantages/disadvantages to a 6 speed manual?

Thank!

DSG, the GOOD bits......
the ability to move your finger 3mm to change gear
Less wear on your left knee
You can eat and drink much more conveniently while on the go
DSG, the BAD bits.......
In 'auto' / 'D' it runs things, not you; often pulls a gear either higher or lower than you would like.
When giving it some, it doesnt react in some circumstances as you would expect, taking a little fun out of driving.........

Steve_D
21-10-2009, 06:05 AM
..............
In 'auto' / 'D' it runs things, not you; often pulls a gear either higher or lower than you would like.
When giving it some, it doesnt react in some circumstances as you would expect, taking a little fun out of driving.........

Personal choice I suppose but to pay a premium of £1300, I think I'd really have to want the plus points before I parted with that amount of dosh.

mjcon
27-10-2009, 04:49 PM
IMHO the DSG is worth every penny. I drove a manual car up to work the other day (courtesy car) and it may have been the first time I'd driven manual except on holiday for a few years, but I couldn't believe that anybody still puts up with such hard work. Crawling along in rush hour traffic is just tedious. The DSG is also by far the smoothest auto I've driven. You can pretty much control how it changes up by the amount of throttle you give it. If the figures are to be believed it's also quieter and more economical than manual. In fact, the DSG was the major reason I'm replacing my Golf with another one...

keithwigley
27-10-2009, 05:14 PM
... and I like the little blip of the exhaust note when I flip downwards a gear or two.

Anyone got a modification that feeds a drop of fuel into the rear exhaust pipe when flipping, to get a flame out of it?

That would be even better!

The Fingers
28-10-2009, 06:13 PM
Well to add another opinion of the DSG..............

I have been driving one for 30,000 miles in a Passat 2.0 TDI (140) and i must say it is the mutts nutts, 'D' nice and sedate - 'S' holds to the red line when pushing it (sometimes it actually holds the red line for a second or two too long) and in Manual its well............... Brilliant.

Good points:-

Very smooth changes
I heavy traffic its fantastic
good manual response
sport packs a punch
left hand free to drink / eat / smoke / play with radio etc etc
relaxed sunday driving is spot on most people dont even notice the gear changes.

no matter what the book figures say these things leave just about anything from the lights, well once you get used to the delay in pedal down to boom away we go they do. Mine does actually give a mates 170 tdi manual golf a run for its money apart from the initial set off.

Bad Points:-

Can be a little undecided when approaching a roundabout / junction where you dont need to stop

Initial delay in moving off when putting the hammer down - i think this is the drive by wire system on VDUBS (floor it at the lights and its possibly 1 - 2 seconds before ........................... BANG) or recently i think it may be waiting for the revs to get above the 2Kish when the turbo spools up. As they dont seem to slip the clutch to get you into the sweet spot.

'S' holds the red line too long, it seems to rev out and then its 1 - 2 seconds before it changes.

SNOW - DSG = doesn't snow go ---- they are rubbish in the snow, sorry not rubbish they are worse than rubbish in the snow. esp on, esp off, manual you name it they dont like it, i even managed to stall mine in the snow, whats all that about, stalling a diesel auto!!!!!!! OH no we are getting to that time of year again:biglaugh:, i am not talking slushy road that fine and dandy, its when there is a definate 2 - 3 inches covering the road.

I dont have paddles on mine so dont miss them, i do drive it almost all the time now in manual as i have better control over which gear it is in (especially mid corner)

Auto hold is also a MUST HAVE, these things creep forward (maybe only diesels not driven a petrol) come to a stop let go of brakes and auto hold keeps the brakes on till you tap the accelerator and the away we go, it also applies the hand brake when you take off your seat belt or turn engine off. (passat electronic brake)
Mine has been bullet proof so far and i do tend to abuse it a little:firedevil
Would i get another - a very loud YES

Mine is a WET 6 so i cannot comment on the DRY 7

GO ON, GO ON, GO ON, in a father ted kind of way............:biglaugh: