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View Full Version : Please help - turbo blew while at Audi!



fatcatregard
07-05-2009, 05:05 PM
Hello, I hope someone can give me some advice.
I have a 2004 A4 Avant 1.9tdi (130bhp). It was collected this morning by Audi Chelmsford to have a cambelt change, aircon service and MOT.
They've just called to say that the turbo's blown on it while they were working on it. Naturally, I've told them that I simply don't believe that it's just a coincidence, but they're adamant that it's nothing they've done. I'm looking at a bill of £1500.

I just can't believe I'd be so unlucky. The only thing in their favour is that the car has high miles - 143k.

What would you do?

fifer1981
07-05-2009, 05:51 PM
id be asking them to clarify exactly what they mean blown ? and at what point in the mot dd it blow as the only point i could see them pushing a turbo is durring the smoke test even then the cars not under any load

fatcatregard
07-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Hi. I don't even know if it was during the MOT. They said they turned it on, there was an almight bang and white smoke came out the back. After that it failed to start. I simply don't know enough to prove otherwise, but I'm just struggling to accept it at the moment.

fifer1981
07-05-2009, 05:59 PM
no chance theres no boost on a turbo to be sufficient to blow it apart on starting. sounds more likely some one was having fun with your car taking it in for its work:( request a investigation to find out how a turbo can be blown apart rendering the engine unusable just by turning the key

fatcatregard
07-05-2009, 06:03 PM
Yeah, that had crossed my mind. So, in your opinion, the whole thing stinks? As I say, I'm certainly no expert, but I do know that I had car that drove like new when Audi collected it this morning and by 4pm today I was looking at a £1500 bill on top of the £500 for the work they've already done.

p.s. thanks for your advice, by the way. I appreciate it.

fifer1981
07-05-2009, 06:17 PM
im not an expert either mate but owned and worked on a few turbos car all petrols and being nissans so changed a few turbos ha ha. I still dont see how its possible for a turbo to blow on start up as it will not be boosting and if it does slightly to aid starting no where near the levels of psi to blow it apart. seals can go in a turbo whether it be coolant or oil which would blow smoke from the exhaust but it wouldnt go with a bang stopping the engine from starting.

for a turbo to blow with a bang it must have been under load producing boost which would blow it apart if there was a problem, yet you say all the done was start the engine. only thing i can think was the valve that controlls boost happend to jam producing unlimited boost, but still sounds like some one was ragging your car mate and they are puting the repair bill on to you im afraid.

i would definatly ask for a investigation to exactly what the cause for a turbo to blow apart whilst starting the engine not on boost. i would also be questioning where the £500 for work done so far has come from as a cam belt is capped at £329 and a mot £49.99 i dont know the air con regass fee

fatcatregard
07-05-2009, 06:22 PM
Sorry - that £500 is my approx figure. It's actually £329 for the belt, £75 for the aircon and whatever the MOT costs now, so perhaps £460 is closer.

I'll question them when they phone tomorrow. It's ridiculous! I was going to get the original work done at my local garage, who I trust, but for the extra £70 odd I decided to go for an Audi main dealer. Now I don't know who to turn to to help me argue it out with them!

fifer1981
07-05-2009, 06:30 PM
you will need them to explain exactly what occured and how it is possible, go visit your usualy guy or post results up here as to what there reason is

whilst here you may want to use this link so you will get the mot free of charge ;)

https://myaudi.audi.co.uk/myaudi/freeMOTRegistration.action

fatcatregard
07-05-2009, 06:52 PM
Thank you!

Marc1
07-05-2009, 09:32 PM
Not an expert either - but my guess is they've started the car and revved it hard when cold for the exhaust smoke test. Either way the car is under their care whilst they have it and like you say it drove very well before you handed it over. See if you can speak to a8 tech or Crasher on this site, to see if they can offer any advise - they have a wealth of knowledge.

Crasher
07-05-2009, 09:37 PM
It does happen especially after clearing an overboost code. Whether it is in their care or not, if they rev it for testing or for MOT and it fails, it is not their fault. Just because a car goes wrong under the custody of a garage does not mean it is the garages fault. It happened to me a few weeks ago, all I did was clear a 17965 over boost code, I went to move the car and it revved up on its own and went with an almighty bang, I don’t know which made more of a mess, me or the car!

fifer1981
07-05-2009, 10:15 PM
wont this\shouldnt this fall on to the shoulders of audi if this is the case as you belive to be possible. theres a problem with the car over boosting, they dont investigate the problem merely clear the code and treat the engine as running okay. as audi told fatcatregard that all they did was start the engine no mention of clearing fault codes that effect the turbo :confused:

Crasher
07-05-2009, 11:21 PM
No not all all. If you clear the code and then engine goes into runaway as soon as you give it a little pedal there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it or guard against it, it is what happens when the vanes stick sometimes and it is just an aspect of owning a car. When a car goes for MOT there are posters warning you that during the diesel test, should your engine go pop it is not the testers responsibility, the car MUST be able to take the full throttle test without failure, if it doesn’t it is your problem, not the testers. It is something we all lay ourselves open to during a diesel test. Even if a mechanic were to get in the car and sit with his foot to the floor, it should not blow if the cars systems are correct, if there is a malfunction that causes it to blow, it is not the garages fault, it is the cars and as the owner of the car…

fifer1981
08-05-2009, 07:12 AM
the car should never be held against the govener for any period of time, i beleive its only held there for a second or two then a breif rest in between. sitting with your foot to the floor is just asking for trouble as the smoke test is just our version of the emissions test testing for smoke rather than pollutants, not to see if your engine is strong enough to have it sit against the govener. i was warned the engine is at risk of the cam belt breaking when i enquired about the smoke test.

i still think that if your car has stored error codes merely clearing them without investigating the problem to find the reason behind the code and hoping for the best is very poor practice, kind of just asking for trouble realy

fatcatregard
08-05-2009, 08:17 AM
Thanks.
Looking at the worst possible scenario, Audi have told me that the turbo costs £1100. Presumably I can go anywhere and get a turbo fitted. Does anyone know of any good companies selling generic/reconditioned turbos and where I find the relevant part number?

Crasher
08-05-2009, 09:27 AM
i still think that if your car has stored error codes merely clearing them without investigating the problem to find the reason behind the code and hoping for the best is very poor practice, kind of just asking for trouble realy

No I am sorry but that is wrong, how do you investigate a fault without starting the engine? We are mechanics, not deities!

JohnyIre
08-05-2009, 12:38 PM
I would tend to agree with Crasher. These things happen. It is very unfortunate though and I'm sorry for you. I'd be surprised if the garage won't repair the car at a good price though. Trade price on parts and cut labour possibly. Especially if you have dealt with them in the past.

fatcatregard
09-05-2009, 08:21 AM
The results....

Yes, the turbo blew on the emissions test dumping about a litre of oil into the exhaust. The best price Audi are offering me is £1600 fitted!! They aren't helping me at all with a discount.

I'm going to get the car transported to my usual mechanic and he's going to fit a recon part. I've seen recon units for around £385. Does that sound right anyone?

I'm left with one last problem. There's some corrosion on the off-side rear arch. The car's only 4 years old. Audi firstly said it was due to scratching, then they said it'd been painted already, finally they're telling me it's had a new wing! I'm the 3rd registered owner, but I know where the car's been since first registered and I'm certain it's had nothing done to it. Anyone know where I stand?

Crasher
09-05-2009, 08:59 AM
I would strongly advise you against a cheap recon turbo, they only have a one year no labour warranty. Get your chap to install a genuine exchange unit which he can buy from his local VAG TPS. This will come with a full two year labour inclusive warranty.

As far as the wing goes, it will have to be inspected by an independent body shop and you may have to pay for a report. If the wing has been replaced (which to me sounds quite plausible) and it was not done by a VAG approved body shop, then the warranty is void on that area and I would completely agree with their decision on that, you can’t expect Audi to warranty faulty non genuine repair work can you?

fatcatregard
09-05-2009, 09:28 AM
Thanks for the advice.
I do understand the terms of the warranty and I agree with you're saying, but the point is that we know the wing hasn't been replaced. The car was my brother's company car from new. I will go down the route of an independent inspection though if need be.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does TPS mean in VAG TPS? I'll ask my mechanic what he can do.

tonyrampanttige
09-05-2009, 10:12 AM
i would guess it means "trade part supplier/specialist"?

Crasher
09-05-2009, 10:52 AM
These people.

http://www.thetradepartsspecialists.co.uk/whatIsTPS.php

a8 tech
09-05-2009, 09:44 PM
the car should never be held against the govener for any period of time, i beleive its only held there for a second or two then a breif rest in between. sitting with your foot to the floor is just asking for trouble as the smoke test is just our version of the emissions test testing for smoke rather than pollutants, not to see if your engine is strong enough to have it sit against the govener. i was warned the engine is at risk of the cam belt breaking when i enquired about the smoke test.

i still think that if your car has stored error codes merely clearing them without investigating the problem to find the reason behind the code and hoping for the best is very poor practice, kind of just asking for trouble realy

Mot testers test the vehicle you have signed on the job sheet as serviceable,so the maintenance of the vehicle is your responsibility.This sounds like oil passing the turbo and entering the intake which with a diesel will rev unregulated as oil is combustive.mot has no call to check for fault codes with diag equipment.As mot are undertaken daily and this is a freak occurance then the emmisions test is correct where well maintained vehicles are subjected to vosa procedure for emmision regulation.Stop moaning :biglaugh:

Crasher
09-05-2009, 10:00 PM
Harsh, but true.

RickT
09-05-2009, 11:09 PM
I would not go for a recon turbo either..

Contact jason @ All German Parts, http://www.allgermanparts.co.uk/ hes a sponser of the forum and will give you a decent discount on the part, mention i reffered you.

All German Parts Limited
16 Pontefract Road, Leeds, West Yorkshire, LS10 1TB
Call us on 08458 622228

Cheers

Rick

a8 tech
10-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Harsh, but true.

:biglaugh::biglaugh:

fatcatregard
12-05-2009, 01:41 PM
Update....

The turbo's off now and I've taken it into a reputible turbo specialist near where I live. They've shown me the damage. When I asked how it could've been caused, they listed a few suggestions. One of which was a leaking EDR valve.
It just so happens that this was picked up on the diagnostic when they did the cambelt earlier in the day. They mentioned it to me on the phone but the guy didn't give me a particularly good explanation as to what an EDR valve does so I said I'd leave it for the service, due in a couple of months.

In my mind, they should've understood and explained the implications of such a fault, especially before putting it through an MOT and full throttle emissions test.

Crasher
12-05-2009, 03:27 PM
EGR, Exhaust Gas Recirculation and this has been blamed for turbo failure in the past but I have never seen it happen.

fatcatregard
12-05-2009, 03:36 PM
They've told me that if it isn't repaired the new turbo will fail as well. I'm just a lay person in all this, but I'm inclined to accept what this specialist is telling me. They're a well-known outfit in these parts.

Are you saying it's an unlikely cause? They've shown me the damage. I don't know what you call the part - for want of a better word I'll call it a propeller. It's been destroyed - buckled and smashed. I think they said that something would've made it unstable - possibly oil - and that causes it to destroy itself.

Does that make sense?

Crasher
12-05-2009, 03:47 PM
They normally fail due to the vane control unit jamming wide open and under heavy load, such as during the smoke test, the turbo massively over speeds and often the compressor wheel nut falls off. If they advise changing the EGR valve I suggest you let them do it.

fatcatregard
12-05-2009, 03:49 PM
Ok, thanks.

fatcatregard
12-05-2009, 07:51 PM
Crasher,

I was reading through some old posts on here and found a thread from a bloke who had a similar problem with a Passat 130bhp turbo a couple of years ago. he had oil leaking from his EGR valve. One or two people suggested that it could've been oil leaking from the turbo gaskets that was leaking out of the valve.

Interestingly, my mechanic also had doubts as to whether a leaking EGR could cause a turbo to fail. I wonder whether the turbo tech thought I meant that the EGR was sticking/faulty?

Crasher
12-05-2009, 07:56 PM
Oil weeping from the EGR is perfectly acceptable and is just some oil being lost by the turbo but mostly being drawn from the crankcase vent pipe. The EGR leaks a little as it ages and the oil bleeds out, personally I only replace them when I take one off and it is blocked solid and leaking and it makes more fiscal sense to change it. Personally I can’t see how the EGR would upset the turbo, it is downwind so to speak.

a8 tech
12-05-2009, 08:05 PM
Exactly it can't,this is a classic worn turbo allowing oil to pass into the induction and drawn in and combusted.Contact Vosa if you wish to appeal about the emission test procedure.

fatcatregard
12-05-2009, 08:11 PM
Crasher - thanks. That's very helpful.

E8 - thanks as well. I'm not looking to appeal. Initially I was checking that I wasn't being ripped off. Now I'm trying to ensure that I get the repair done properly.

Jay4
13-05-2009, 11:20 AM
I took my car to a VW/Audi garage yesterday to check why my car was vibrating which he told me was the fly wheel, but while I was there he put it on the diagnostic machine to see the fault codes and it came back that my turbo was over boosting to 2900, so he said it would need replacing. To me it doesn't feel as if anythings wrong thats why I'm abit gutted tbh, plus Im not sure if the cars been chipped or remapped as he recons it overpowered, but he did think it was 110 at first until I told him it was a 130. He said the turbo should be running at 2400, but if its been remapped wouldn't it over boost anyway?
Eitherway to get my turbo recondition with a 1 year warrenty plus fitting its gonna cost me about £500 so hope that helps with a price.

Crasher
13-05-2009, 01:17 PM
If you mean 2900 mBar it may just be a faulty MAP sensor, what VAG call a Thrust Senor. Which fault code did he get, 17965?

Jay4
13-05-2009, 03:26 PM
If you mean 2900 mBar it may just be a faulty MAP sensor, what VAG call a Thrust Senor. Which fault code did he get, 17965?

It doesn't have the fault code on the invoice :( just says turbo over boosting to 2900 mbar, he recons it should be at 2400 mbar, but he did think the car was a 110 when its a 130 bhp, plus its had a dumpvalve fitted to it(by the guy before me :Blush2:) and that can cause over boost anyway cant it? The DV was also causing alot of excessive black smoke.

Crasher
13-05-2009, 04:36 PM
Get the stupid DV off, fit a new thrust sensor and get a fault code read done somewhere else where they give you a print out.

churp
13-05-2009, 05:58 PM
fyi i had my car mot'd by chelmsford audi the other month, and the car actually was mot'd in a garage in witham not at the chelmsford audi garage and as such they had driven it there and back cos my tripometer had more mileage on it than when i left it on there and as its roughly 10 miles each way between audi dealership and witham the mileage was accurate with a trip there and back